Dr. Tariq Banuri

former HEC chairman

Compiled from 1 recorded interview. Every statement below is drawn from the passage cited beside it.

Dr. Tariq Banuri was the HEC Chairman, nominated to the post by a selection board in 2018. He was appointed by the UN Secretary General to head the division for sustainable development at UN headquarters.

Education

Banuri studied civil engineering at Peshawar. He also earned an economics degree by sitting an exam privately. He did his PhD in economics at Harvard University in the mid-1970s. [1]

Civil service

Banuri joined the civil service of Pakistan. Early in the civil service he worked as an assistant commissioner. He asked for a transfer to the planning department to work on economics. [1]

International and research career

After his PhD, Banuri joined a UN research centre based in Finland. He worked on a think tank with the UN in the US and Finland, and he worked at the Stockholm Environment Institute, starting in Boston. He set up a think tank in Bangkok. He was also a professor at the University of Utah. [1]

Banuri says weak research culture in Pakistan was one reason he set up an independent think tank rather than working in a university. He represented Pakistan at the Rio conference and wrote Pakistan's national report for it. [1]

Banuri says the issue of goals was raised very early on and subsequently became the Sustainable Development Goals. He says the Sustainable Development Goals were approved after he had left, though the process had started while he was there. [1]

Views on governance

Banuri argues that debt and structural adjustment problems are, at root, problems of governance. He also argues that if a society can manage environmental problems, the environment ceases to be an issue. He wrote a book called Who Will Save the Forest. [1]

Higher Education Commission

Banuri says HEC was formed around 2002. He describes HEC as a body that does three things plus one, the first of which is providing funding. He says four dimensions needed to be managed, money being one of them. He set up the National Academy of Higher Education. [1]

Banuri says his staff told him that chairmen had used their own discretion every year. He says that when a formula was applied, about one-third of the universities were found to be getting far more than they would have gotten under it, and that the universities that were getting more were all bankrupt. As someone who looks at systems, he says, he immediately suspects corruption when he sees an outcome like this. He also says Islamabad-based universities were receiving disproportionately more money. [1]

He says HEC introduced the PhD degree by force in the early 2000s. On PhDs, he says the arrangement was to pay in proportion to the number of PhDs produced, and that the quality of academics collapsed because the approach was made a purely capitalist formula. He says that the closer HEC is to an issue, such as a degree or programme over which it has more control, the lower the value of those degrees. He says that when he asked where the syllabus, lesson plan and textbooks were, there were none. [1]

Banuri says about 30 research centres based at universities were found, each with its own statutory status. He says the new research programmes require the proponent to state the problem to which they wish to contribute, and that the focus has shifted toward more applied, problem-solving research. He says people were taught how to prepare budgets because the budgets were all kind of fake. He says that until he took over, an evaluator had never been asked to file a conflict of interest statement, and that in 2002 money was thrown away, and asks where the result is. [1]

Views on rules and degrees

Banuri says he asked for a single consolidated policy to be made. He says regulatory bodies must act without fear or favor, and he told vice chancellors he would not do them favours. He describes a system used to behaving in a feudal manner, rewarding clients or punishing enemies, and says the feudal system at this moment is in nobody's interest except a small group of mafias who are milking it. He says that giving exemptions to the biggest crooks in the system would cause the whole system to fail. [1]

Banuri says he wants PhD admissions to become like a recruitment process, taking the best people in the country. He says the undergraduate degree should be treated as a terminal degree, and that a degree is only a piece of paper and means nothing on its own. He says he finds a lot of very good people who have been pushed into a dead end in which they have become relatively unproductive, and that his task is to help people understand the issue and move in that direction. [1]

Banuri says that for the first time he put together a committee, which came up with a framework. He says the first part of the work is almost 90% complete, and that about 30 to 40% of the safeguards have been put in place. He says operationalisation and troubleshooting are at a very early stage. [1]

Removal as chairman

Banuri says that every time he has met with the Prime Minister, he has raised the same points. He says he has no disagreement with the Prime Minister's statements about merit and improving the quality of education, and that the pressure to do things immediately comes from the government, not from the Prime Minister. [1]

Banuri says that what he and his side consider an illegal ordinance was used to change the terms and get rid of him. He says the government does not have the power to remove him, and that the government can pass an ordinance overnight, ending autonomy. He says the case is with the Sindh High Court, that his side has raised the issue that it is malafide, and that the case will come up for hearing after Eid. He says he is 100% confident that the right is on his side. [1]

Timeline

2002
HEC formed, according to Banuri[1]
2018
Nominated by a selection board as HEC chairman[1]

Appearances

DateTitleWhere
2021-05-17 Dr. Tariq Banuri on higher education reform in Pakistan Thought Behind Things

Frequently asked questions

Who is Dr. Tariq Banuri?

Dr. Tariq Banuri was the HEC Chairman. A selection board nominated him to the post in 2018. He did his PhD in economics at Harvard University.[1]

What has Dr. Tariq Banuri done in his career?

Banuri joined the civil service of Pakistan, where early on he worked as an assistant commissioner. He set up a think tank in Bangkok and worked at the Stockholm Environment Institute, starting in Boston. The UN Secretary General appointed him to head the division for sustainable development at UN headquarters.[1]

Where did Dr. Tariq Banuri study?

Banuri studied civil engineering at Peshawar. He earned an economics degree by sitting an exam privately. He did his PhD in economics at Harvard University in the mid-1970s.[1]

What book did Dr. Tariq Banuri write?

Banuri wrote a book called Who Will Save the Forest. He also argues that debt and structural adjustment problems are, at root, problems of governance.[1]

What did Dr. Tariq Banuri set up?

Banuri set up a think tank in Bangkok. He also set up the National Academy of Higher Education. He says weak research culture in Pakistan was one reason he set up an independent think tank rather than working in a university.[1]

What happened to Dr. Tariq Banuri's position at HEC?

Banuri says that what he and his side consider an illegal ordinance was used to change the terms and get rid of him. He says the government does not have the power to remove him. He says the case is with the Sindh High Court.[1]

References

  1. Dr. Tariq Banuri on higher education reform in Pakistan . Thought Behind Things , 2021-05-17.
Show the source passages (67 statements)
  1. Dr. Tariq Banuri was the HEC Chairman. In conversation with HEC Chairman Dr. Tariq Banuri, this episode explores HEC and what factors led to his ousting.
  2. He studied civil engineering at Peshawar. I did my civil engineering from Peshawar
  3. He joined the civil service of Pakistan. But for a variety of reasons, I ended up taking up the civil service exam and I got into the civil service of Pakistan as it was then called.
  4. Early in the civil service he worked as an assistant commissioner. Even when I got into civil service to pehle to wahi sab revision wagera assistant commissioner mein laga.
  5. He earned an economics degree by sitting an exam privately. To maine phir privately economics ka bhi ek exam de diya and got a degree.
  6. He asked for a transfer to the planning department to work on economics. Lekin very quickly I asked for a transfer to the planning department taake economics ke upar phir kuch kaam kare.
  7. He did his PhD in economics at Harvard University in the mid-1970s. This was in the 70s, mid 70s. So to bas us mein as I was doing this, an opportunity arose. I went and did my PhD in economics from from from Harvard University in the US.
  8. After his PhD he joined a UN research centre based in Finland. Then I ended up joining a UN institution, a UN research center jo ke Finland mein based hai.
  9. He argues that debt and structural adjustment problems are, at root, problems of governance. But I took that issue and I said ke you know ultimately it's not a problem only of you know financial management. It's a problem of governance.
  10. He argues that if a society can manage environmental problems, the environment ceases to be an issue. Lekin agar hum usko manage kar sakein, hum uske saath deal kar sakein to then environment ceases to be an issue, it becomes our friend.
  11. He wrote a book called Who Will Save the Forest. So I did a book called Who Will Save the Forest which was essentially taking the environmental problem covering converting it into more of a governance related problem.
  12. He worked on a think tank with the UN in the US and Finland. Mainly the thing I was doing in the US in Finland was a think tank with the UN.
  13. He says weak research culture in Pakistan was one reason he set up an independent think tank rather than working in a university. Now one of the things I felt at that time is ke Pakistan ka research culture bahut weak tha. Us waqt tha hi nahi and that's one of the reasons I set up an independent think tank rather than coming and working in a university.
  14. He represented Pakistan at the Rio conference. So I represented Pakistan at the Rio conference at that time.
  15. He wrote Pakistan's national report for the Rio conference. In fact, I wrote Pakistan's national report for the Rio conference, right? SDPI ke saath.
  16. He worked at the Stockholm Environment Institute, starting in Boston. Stockholm Environment Institute to us mein main kaam karta tha. I started there in Boston
  17. He set up a think tank in Bangkok. they wanted to set up a think tank um in Bangkok. So I went and set that up.
  18. The UN Secretary General appointed him to head the division for sustainable development at UN headquarters. I was appointed by the UN Secretary General to head the division for sustainable development at the UN headquarters.
  19. He says the issue of goals was raised very early on and subsequently became the Sustainable Development Goals. very early on we had raised the issues of goals. Right. And that subsequently became the sustainable development goals.
  20. He says the Sustainable Development Goals were approved after he had left, though the process had started while he was there. Now that were approved after I had left but the process had started at the time that I was there.
  21. He was a professor at the University of Utah. I was a professor at the University of Utah which is one of the leading universities in the US.
  22. A selection board nominated him as the next HEC chairman in 2018. And then when when this opportunity arose in 2018, uh the selection board they looked at a lot of people and they ended up nominating me as the next chairman.
  23. He says HEC was formed around 2002. let us say 2002 mein HEC ban gayi and a lot of money was given to it.
  24. He says four dimensions needed to be managed, money being one of them. we thought of it ke yeh chaar dimensions hain inko manage karne ki zaroorat hai. Right. Money is obviously one of them.
  25. He describes HEC as a body that does three things plus one, the first of which is providing funding. HEC um is essentially a body which does three things plus one. Three thing one is it provides funding
  26. He says his staff told him that chairmen had used their own discretion every year. mere staff ne kaha ke nahi is mein har saal kuch na kuch chairman jo hain woh apni discretion ko use karte rahe.
  27. He says that when a formula was applied, about one-third of the universities were found to be getting far more than they would have gotten under it. When we applied the formula, what we found is that about one-third of the universities were getting far more than they would have gotten under the formula, right?
  28. He says the universities that were getting more were all bankrupt. And the interesting thing was ke jinko zyada mil rahe the, woh saari universities bankrupt thi.
  29. He says that, as someone who looks at systems, he immediately suspects corruption when he sees an outcome like this. as uh somebody who looks at systems, when you see an outcome like this, Right. you immediately suspect corruption.
  30. He says about 30 research centres based at universities were found, each with its own statutory status. we found about 30 research centers which are based at universities. They have their own statutory status.
  31. He says that the closer HEC is to an issue, such as a degree or programme over which it has more control, the lower the value of those degrees. the closer the HEC is to that particular issue uh matlab ek degree hai ya ek program hai ya jiske upar hamara zyada zor chalta hai, un sab ki degrees ki value kam hai.
  32. He says HEC introduced the PhD degree by force in the early 2000s. the PhD degree was introduced forcefully by HEC in the early 2000s
  33. He says the arrangement was to pay in proportion to the number of PhDs produced. jitne aap PhD produce karenge utne hisab se hum aapko paise denge.
  34. He says the quality of academics collapsed because the approach was made a purely capitalist formula. jo hamari uh quality of academics hai woh collapse kar gayi kyunki aapne purely isko ek capitalist formula bana diya.
  35. He says that when he asked where the syllabus, lesson plan and textbooks were, there were none. So I said where is the syllabus? Where is the lesson plan? What are the textbooks to be used? There was none.
  36. He set up the National Academy of Higher Education. I set up a new institution, National Academy of Higher Education.
  37. He says he asked for a single consolidated policy to be made. So I said nahi uski ek consolidated policy banao.
  38. He says the new research programmes require the proponent to state the problem to which they wish to contribute. jo naye research programs hain in which the proposal the proponent will have to tell us ke this is the problem to to which I wish to contribute.
  39. He says that until he took over, an evaluator had never been asked to file a conflict of interest statement. until I took over, we had never asked an evaluator to file a conflict of interest statement
  40. He describes a system used to behaving in a feudal manner, rewarding clients or punishing enemies. If if the system is used to behaving in a feudal manner in which you are basically either rewarding your clients or punishing your enemies
  41. He says the focus has shifted toward more applied, problem-solving research. focus kiya hai zyada applied research ki taraf, uh problem solving research ki taraf.
  42. He says people were taught how to prepare budgets because the budgets were all kind of fake. Budget banana logon ko sikhaya hai because the budgets were all kind of fake budgets.
  43. He says Islamabad-based universities were receiving disproportionately more money. Islamabad based universities ko disproportionately zyada paise mil rahe hain.
  44. He says regulatory bodies must act without fear or favor. regulatory bodies are required to act act without fear or favor.
  45. He says that what he and his side consider an illegal ordinance was used to change the terms and get rid of him. they used an kind of a what we consider to be an illegal ordinance Right. to change the terms and to get rid of me.
  46. He says the government does not have the power to remove him. The government does not have the uh woh to remove them.
  47. He says the case is with the Sindh High Court. It's with the Sindh High Court.
  48. He says his side has raised the issue that it is malafide. we have raised the issue that it's malafide.
  49. He says the case will come up for hearing after Eid. it will come up after Eid for for hearing.
  50. He says he is 100% confident that the right is on his side. I am 100% confident that the right is on on on our side.
  51. He says the government can pass an ordinance overnight, ending autonomy. But the government can today say ke achha ji humne ordinance pass kar liya overnight aapki autonomy khatam aap chale jayein.
  52. He says that giving exemptions to the biggest crooks in the system would cause the whole system to fail. especially if you start giving exemptions to the biggest crooks in the system, then the whole system will fail.
  53. He told vice chancellors he would not do them favours. I used to tell the Vice Chancellors ke please don't come to me because I will not do you any favors.
  54. He says that every time he has met with the Prime Minister, he has raised the same points. every time I have met with the Prime Minister, I have basically raised the same points.
  55. He says he has no disagreement with the Prime Minister's statements about merit and improving the quality of education. Uh dekhein jahan tak ke Prime Minister ki statements hain about merit and about uh uh improving the quality of education, uh I don't think I have any disagreement.
  56. He says the pressure to do things immediately comes from the government, not from the Prime Minister. not from the Prime Minister but government ki taraf se pressure hota hai ke foran kar do.
  57. He says that in 2002 money was thrown away, and asks where the result is. this is exactly what happened in 2002. You know, woh paise phenke. Where is the result?
  58. He says a degree is only a piece of paper and means nothing on its own. a degree is a piece of paper. Right. It doesn't mean anything.
  59. He says the feudal system at this moment is in nobody's interest except a small group of mafias who are milking it. This feudal system that we have at this moment is in nobody's interest except for a small group of mafias which are milking it for all its worth.
  60. He says his task is to help people understand the issue and move in that direction. My task is to enable people to understand what the issue is and to begin to move in that direction
  61. He says he finds a lot of very good people who have been pushed into a dead end in which they have become relatively unproductive. I find a lot of very good people. But I find that we have pushed them into a dead end in which they have become relatively unproductive.
  62. He says he wants PhD admissions to become like a recruitment process, taking the best people in the country. So I want the PhD admissions to become like a recruitment agenda and we should take the best people in the country.
  63. He says the undergraduate degree should be treated as a terminal degree. my view about this thing is that uh uh that people should treat the undergraduate degree as a terminal degree.
  64. He says that for the first time he put together a committee, which came up with a framework. So for the first time I put together a committee, we came up with a framework
  65. He says the first part of the work is almost 90% complete. So pehle wala kaam to takreeban 90% complete humne kar diya.
  66. He says about 30 to 40% of the safeguards have been put in place. Safeguards bhi humne maybe about 30 to 40% daal diye.
  67. He says operationalisation and troubleshooting are at a very early stage. The operationalization and troubleshooting is at its very infancy.