Thought Behind Things · Nov 23, 2022
Pakistan's schools are built to give grades, not education
Bilal Hameed and Asad Hashamali of Alt Academy make the case that Pakistan's education system is fundamentally broken — not because of a lack of resources, but because it was never designed to produce learners. They argue the fix starts with compressing A-level content, freeing up time, and eventually replacing the lecture model entirely.
with Bilal Hameed & Asad Hashamali
10 min read
From navy postings to twenty years in a classroom
The episode opens with Muzamil framing the conversation bluntly: education is, in his personal view, the single biggest threat to Pakistan’s future — more consequential than climate change or food security. He has been deliberately seeking out people with real experience in the system, not just opinions about it.
Bilal Hameed is the first to speak about his background. Born in Karachi on the naval island of Manora — accessible mainly by boat — he spent his childhood moving between cities as his father’s Pakistan Navy postings dictated. He graduated with a computer science degree from Rutgers in 2002, having also completed a minor in Middle Eastern studies that he describes as intellectually transformative. He returned to Pakistan immediately after graduation, not by choice but by necessity: as the eldest child, he had to support his family.
“Kids don’t need experts to teach them,” Bilal says, reflecting on how he stumbled into teaching. “They need somebody who just knows a little bit more than them.” He started with evening tuitions, then joined a school in the mornings, and discovered he was good at it. Within a few years he was helping found Nixar College — spending nights at a Costa café in Karachi building the admissions model and curriculum from scratch — and later Cedar College, which he describes as one of the first schools in Karachi set up entirely by teachers rather than investors or administrators.
Asad Hashamali’s path is different in texture but similar in direction. Born in Hong Kong to a trading family, he moved to Dallas in 2001 and watched the Twin Towers fall on a classroom television screen. He arrived in Pakistan in 2005, did his O and A levels at Lyceum, and completed an economics and finance degree through the University of London’s international program while working simultaneously. He joined Cedar College as an intern in 2015, eventually building its digital media and communications department — a department that did not exist before he proposed it.
The founding logic of Alt Academy
Alt Academy began, in Bilal’s telling, as a side project: free YouTube content for A-level Chemistry, Physics, and Economics students, started around 2018 and bootstrapped entirely by him. The logic was simple. The total global population of students sitting Cambridge A-level Chemistry in any given year is roughly 30,000. Monetizing that audience through ads makes no sense. But giving those students free access to high-quality content could free up their time for everything else.
“I wanted them to have more skills and more time on their hands,” Bilal explains. “As a nation, we have a lot of young kids who want to develop something. They need to develop. Otherwise, as a nation, our economy won’t grow.”
COVID accelerated the shift to digital but Bilal deliberately chose not to launch a paid product during the pandemic, not wanting the business to appear opportunistic. By 2021, with Asad joining full time after winding down his role at his consultancy Backspace, they raised a seed round and moved into a proper startup structure. By the time of this recording, Alt Academy had served over 55,000 students across YouTube and third-party platforms, and had just launched a paywall in beta two weeks prior.
The core product proposition is compression. Bilal lays out the arithmetic plainly: a student in Karachi, Lahore, or Islamabad pays roughly six lakh rupees per year to attend an A-level school, but actually receives only twenty-five to twenty-eight weeks of classroom instruction. The same content, he argues, can be delivered in approximately eighty hours — fifty hours of video and thirty hours of practice. “You can do this whole thing that people are saying takes two years in six months,” he says.
Why edtech keeps rebuilding the same broken thing
Muzamil pushes back on a tension he has noticed across every edtech conversation he has had: most players claim to be reimagining education but are actually just digitizing the tuition model. Bilal agrees without hesitation.
The deeper problem, he argues, is that almost every edtech startup in Pakistan is led by people with technology or business backgrounds, not educators. “Most of them have not spent more than a year in a classroom,” he says. Alt Academy’s differentiator, in his view, is that at least four of its founding members have twenty years of classroom experience each and still fill eighty-student classrooms daily in Karachi. That credibility — students knowing and trusting the teachers — is something a technology-first startup cannot replicate quickly.
Asad adds a structural point: edtech companies default to the high-school segment not because it is the most important problem but because it is the easiest to digitize. “A ninth grade, tenth grade class is not engaging. It’s a lecture model. Lecture models are the easiest to digitize.” MIT’s open courseware, he notes, was exactly this — record a lecture, put it online. Every subsequent wave of edtech has followed the same path of least resistance.
Muzamil presses further: if the real scale opportunity is the millions of young Pakistanis entering the workforce every year, why is nobody building for that? Bilal’s answer is candid. Early childhood education is too capital-intensive and too dependent on physical presence to be a tech startup. University-level innovation is blocked by HEC licensing requirements — you need acres of land, PhDs on staff, and government approval. High school is the only segment where the content is standardized enough to compress and the regulatory barriers are low enough to enter.
The parent problem and the adoption wall
Later in the discussion, Muzamil identifies what he sees as the central adoption challenge: the paying customer is not the student. It is the parent. And parents, particularly in Karachi, are deeply conservative about changing anything related to their child’s schooling.
Bilal confirms this from his own experience running Cedar. He had introduced a set of eight elective courses — graphic design, world politics, history of the Second World War — that students could take alongside their A-levels with no exam attached. Some students loved them. But when grades dipped, parents blamed the electives. “Many parents said, times are limited, I need my child to get grades only. So shut it down.” The courses were discontinued.
The consumer psychology problem is compounded by what Bilal calls a missing critical mass. Parents will not shift their behavior until enough other parents have already shifted. “It’s like that. When Google came, they were not the first search engine. First there was Yahoo, Alta Vista. They made it better. Right now, we’re not even there yet. We’re not even at Alta Vista. People are still thinking, no, my child will go to the classroom.”
Asad frames the same problem from a product design angle, drawing a comparison to TikTok’s onboarding. Instagram requires a username before showing any content. TikTok shows content immediately and asks for a sign-up ten minutes later, auto-generating a username so the barrier to entry is near zero. “How do you onboard consumers in a way that they will be your customer not today but six months from now?” Most edtech platforms, he argues, are looking for customers who are ready to pay today rather than building demand among people who are not yet convinced.
What mastery-based learning actually means
One of the sharpest conceptual moments in the conversation comes when Bilal describes mastery-based learning — and why schools are the only domain in human life where we do not apply it.
“You don’t put your child on a bicycle and say, three days of cycling, you fell twice, your grade is B, now let’s go play tennis. You will ensure that they can cycle and then you’ll take them somewhere.” The same logic applies to multiplication before indices, to foundational grammar before essay writing. But in schools, the entire class moves forward on a fixed schedule regardless of whether any individual child has actually understood the previous concept. The weakest foundations are laid for the students who need the most time, and those students carry the gaps forward for years.
Technology, Bilal argues, does not solve this problem by itself — but it enables the solution. Once content delivery is separated from the classroom, teachers can stop being lecturers and start being facilitators who push individual students toward mastery at their own pace. “The role of the school and the teacher has to drastically change. A teacher should no longer be the person standing there to give expert knowledge.”
The vision: schools as social spaces, content from the world’s best
By the end of the conversation, Bilal articulates a vision of education that is more radical than anything Alt Academy is currently selling. Morning school time, he argues, should be reserved entirely for social learning — MUN, sports, projects, community service, citizenship. The academic content that currently fills those hours should be delivered through high-quality video, made by the best teachers in the world, watched by students on their own time.
“What we’ve done in schools is we’ve removed all the fun out of them,” he says. “When a kid enters my class, you can see the life has been drained out of him. He’s tired. He doesn’t want to be here.” The flipped classroom model — where students consume content at home and use class time for discussion and application — is not a new idea. Khan Academy has been building toward it for over a decade. But Pakistan has not even acknowledged it exists.
Muzamil asks both guests to think about AI and personalization: what does education look like in ten years if every child can have a learning experience tailored to their level and interests? Bilal’s answer returns to history. The best learning in human civilization happened through personal tutors — people responsible for introducing a single student to ideas, pushing their curiosity, and ensuring mastery before moving on. “I think the future of education is going to mimic the history of how people learned.” AI makes that model scalable. The most engaging content will be produced by a small number of world-class creators. The role of the teacher in the room becomes that of a coach and motivator, not a knowledge-imparter.
Pakistan in 2050: hard decisions or boundary-lessness
Muzamil closes by asking both guests how they see Pakistan in 2050. Bilal’s answer is deliberately unsentimental. He stopped making long-range predictions because Pakistan has confounded optimism too many times. “If I had predicted what Pakistan could look like twenty years ago, I would be a very cynical man by now.” His structural read is that Pakistan as a nation responds to external pressure better than internal will. The change in education will come either from large employers dropping degree requirements — forcing the entire certification system to reckon with its irrelevance — or from external financial bodies demanding structural reform as a condition of support.
Asad’s answer is more personal. He has spent seventeen years watching it become harder for Pakistanis to coexist across every strata of society. His hope for 2050 is not economic but attitudinal: that his generation will have unlearned and relearned enough times to arrive at a version of the country defined by humility, depth, and tolerance. “My vision for 2050 is that this generation will have unlearned and relearned so many times that we will figure out a way to make sure we can all coexist but also humbly continue to excel.”
Both guests agree on one thing: the thought leaders who could shift the national conversation are more likely to emerge from TikTok than from any institution. The platform has already democratized visibility in ways that television and print never did. “I think we are one or two moral or thought leaders away from rising as a nation,” Bilal says. “Not political leaders. Thought leaders.”
Muzamil wraps the two-hour conversation with a rare public endorsement: of all the edtech founders he has spoken to, Alt Academy is the one that has genuinely excited him — not just for the vision articulated on camera, but for what he observed off it as well.
Full transcript
सारे संदीनों साथ welcome back to the episode of Thought Man and Think that मेरे साथ मौजूद हैं दो बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान and the conversation that we're going to going to be talking about is education. I know इसके ऊपर ज़्यादा clicks नहीं आते तो हम कोई clickbaity title decide कर लेंगे बाद में. But, you know, I think it's one of the most like the biggest problem that this country is facing. जो अगर आप climate change कह लें, food security कह लें, वह सारा कुछ कर लें. But education का जो फुकदान है इस मुल्क के अंदर, वह इस मुल्क के अगर कोई चीज़ है जो तबाही का सबब बनेगा मेरा जाती ख़याल ही है कि वह education है. Conversation बार बार करने का मक़सद यह है कि मुझे personally again मेरा जाती ख़याली है कि उसके बड़े अच्छे solutions exist कर रहे भी हैं, कर सकते भी हैं. We're just not trying to figure it out. And so I'm trying to talk to as many people who have the relevant experience and thought leadership, who can guide the way, and potentially create, an educated Pakistan of twenty fifties. दो बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान. We have with us today, बिलाल Hamid, who is the CEO and cofounder of Alt Academy and previously has cofounded or founded I believe Cedar School in Karachi for those of you who know about it and I definitely know the other one जो कि आप लोग जानते ही होंगे. He was also cofounder for lyscium as well. Nixer. Nixer Nixer as well. Nixer sharks I believe उनकी होती हैं. Yes. तो वह जो है उनको भी उन्होंने किया था and you know he's been part of the academia for quite a while. Very interesting story and and with him we have his cofounder आसद हाशिम अली, who co founder the Alt Academy. है क्या Alt Academy? कर क्या रहे हैं? Are they are they dumb? Are they smart? Are they revolutionary? Let's figure it out guys. Thank you so much for being part of the show. Thank you for having us. My pleasure. Thanks for having us. I'm gonna start off with you, बिलाल. Just sort of a quick summary of, you know, where where were you born, growing up? What was life like? You want a one minute or a five minute? Maybe, like, a seven and a half minute. So,
I had the pleasure and the misfortune of being in multiple cities. तो उसका फ़ायदा भी होता है, नुकसान भी होता है. I was born in Karachi. My parents were living on the island of Manoda, if you know. Manoda is an island in Karachi. In Karachi? It is, yes. It's called Monora. And you can only get to the city mainly by boat. So, my mom tells me that she'd go to the doctors by boat and then delivery SUV. Why do I hurt know this?
What?
Yes. Is the Is this still alive? Like, is this? Do do people live Yes. Actually, the the current chief minister, in the last few months, I think there's been a marine drive upgrade on the island. So, they had actually just like Cliffton Drive बनाई है. Mhmm. They they wanted to create that beach drive there also. तो एक बड़ी सी road है, सफाई हो गई है. I haven't been there lately but How earlier how big is this space? It's not too big. I think it's mainly occupied by the Pakistan navy and my father was in the Pakistan navy, so that's why we were So, I think उनका training camp है और कुछ और चीज़ें हैं, वो सारी वहां होती हैं. Makes sense. तो that's why I know not many people know. There's locals who रहते हैं obviously, those who are there, but not many people venture out in that area. So that's where I was born and a couple of years, I think for a few years, five, six years हम कराची में रहते. Then as it was Pakistan navy and any other armed forces, they move you around. So इस्लाम आज़ादा कहते हम, I literally was living in E 4. Know, we lived there for a few years. Be able to beaconouse there, came back to Karachi.
यार, navy वालों से मेरी बात नहीं हुई generally ज़िंदगी में. आपने शायद family से पुछा हो. बिल्कुल, पूछे हो जाएं. क्या? समंदर की navy का headquarters का आवाज़ नहीं क्या कर रहा है? Most
I think generally speaking most of the stuff is in कराची.
सिर्फ़ I think the because they the the real Is it because of the GHQ कि all the services chiefs are here and so they coordinate easily? That's what I would venture
because I think if you if you know any Pakistan navy में one of the most popular positions is com car, commander Karachi. अच्छा. It's it's it's it's most relevant because आपकी fleet सारी Karachi में है. Right. So, it is Karachi based. I think logistics and some other के लिए इस्लामाबाद में लोग को कभी कभार post होते Satellite office कहीं और है कुछ. Right. Makes sense. But I didn't venture into this too much क्योंकि क्यों इस्लामाबाद में But I think it's basically this. Makes sense. GHQ आऐंगे but so दो साल तीन आते then we went back to Karachi then for a year we had we went to The US also. Because when navy procures ships or you know submarines and all that they send officers. तो एक साल मामी को सारा लिया high. तो schooling मामी की now I'm so cut off. So, don't know. But उस ज़माने में जब when I was growing up, there was only कराची in Islamabad. You will not have anybody. That's why navy, I think, most people like the navy because there's not much movement of houses. But यह होता है कि if you're in armed forces, you, your only core is your nucleus is your family. You don't have friends. You make friends, you move. You make friends, you move. And that's why we did. हमारे I, the the friends I have from the earliest life I remember are only after seventh grade. जब मैं कराची में आ गया, finally हमने कहा अब अगले चार, आठ महीने, आठ साल नहीं जाना. Went to a place called City North Street Of New York for a year. Transferred to Rutgers, New Jersey में था. What Best time of my what major? So I was studying computer science. That was my undergrad. Back in what year? Back in 2002. That's the year of graduation. A levels was 1998. Right. And graduation was 2002. In fact, actually, I got a chance of studying multiple things. वहां America में फ़ायदा ही होता है कि आप, you can study more than one thing. So, मेरा majored था computer science, but I also did minor in chemistry and Middle Eastern studies. Interesting. So, because I had interesting professors. जब आपको मिल जाते हैं तो you start looking at those areas. Middle Eastern studies बढ़ जाती है. So, in most universities यह major exist नहीं करता ज़्यादातर, either religion में होता है. तो कुछ this was called an interdisciplinary कि where there were three four majors put together. So, कुछ politics of The Middle East, language of the Middle East, religion of the Middle East. मिलाकर एक बना दिया उन्होंने एक degree बना दी थी. Right. So, I did six courses थे उसमें ethics of Islam, history of Islam, you know, Persian language. That must be so much fun It was,
absolutely. Islam through that lens, academic lens, what you generally taught is must have been something. It was, it was, अंदर से I was rejuvenated.
I bought a lot of books back. Just, I only bought my, those course books back. I have left everything out. Funnily enough, जो professor ने मुझे पढ़ाया था, he is now back in Pakistan. So, is teaching at he taught at Lums at IBA now. What's his name? His name is Nomanul Huck. He teaches Islam in that randomness. Are you connected with? I've met him a few times, but he keeps moving back and forth. He's always busy, so If you could ever connect us with him, would would love have an academic discussion on religion. Oh, he is a fascinating human being. A great history he's had life. So I think it'll be I would definitely connect to him. That's good. I think everybody who's learned that much has a very strong opinion about things. So I love having a chat with them, but I'll try to connect. That was it. So, so you graduated 2002? 2002 and I came back right after. Why? Yeah. That was a family issue. I had to take care of my... I was the eldest. Right. And I had to take care of family and earn a living. छोटे एक भाई, एक भाई पड़ा था Canada में Miguel में और बाकी तो छोटे बहन भाई थे, A levels में ही थे, LICM, Mavis, Senate तक. So, जो छोटे बहन भाई हैं, वह भी सारे Pakistan आ गए या वह? वह तो उसके बाद सबने graduate करके ऐसा ऐसा बाहर चले गए. तो एक भाई Canada में है, मेरा एक Sri Lanka में और एक बहन England में है. तो आप अकेले यहां पर? मैं अकेला हूं. And I'm the eldest and my mom lives with us. Interesting and and why Sri Lanka? I mean, that's a that's a great There's a lot of herbs here. Yeah. You're really
interestingly weird situation happening.
But, the stress of the movement and all that does create some uniqueness in the family. Also, cohesion कम हो जाती है. I know I know you have your family living abroad. So, this, you miss them but, you know, that also creates opportunities to learn more about that place. But you, there's no, you know, like, you miss them around. So, मेरा भाई तब, the youngest who's known, Sri Lanka, he actually went there for for to find some work during COVID, before COVID. And COVID hit and वह वहीं रह गया. मैंने कहा, just go there and just keep working. Figure it out, हां. Figure it out and he likes his bohemian. He likes art art. So he stopped painting. He's a penalty commissioned to paint fame paintings for those, you know, hotels these days. Radisson blue kind. How cool.
I mean,
nice potential guests are. Yeah. Like, that is so unique. I've never I mean, there he's living it up. Yes. The benefits of being the youngest sometimes. Know? You don't have to worry about taking care of everybody around you. If you're in his story, you might, like, sidetrack from Bilal. Oh, yeah. This is a very fascinating story. So but, तो बाकी सारे बहन भाई चले गए बाहर and I'm here with my mom. And obviously married now, have a child. Right. So, I mean, you were at computer science. And I didn't wanna leave New York. Let me tell you. I I I love that place. I think everybody, if get a chance, should ever live in New York. I think it's it's it teaches you a lot. I think Karachi probably was the only place at that time that could even come close to me being not missing New Yorkers because at that time I was very busy-busy. इस्लामा was
ninety eight-two months. Were saying कि I mean आप कराची की आपके अंदर वह था ना एक DNA था तो आप बिल्कुल. मैं तो तीसरे मैंने बाद sure I landed in New York and the first drive in and you were like यार incredible feat by human beings. Yes. But the third day, I was just like, hey, you're getting me out of this place. Like, I'm done. Yeah. And I was also too wired for you or or? No, wired. बिल्कुल भी issue नहीं था. It was just too happening. You feel, you genuinely feel like you the the the feeling of insignificance. I I think that's a very similar feeling in karaachi as well. Yes. I know what you mean. And there are people who tend to Karachi के जितने भी लोगों से बात करता हूं who thrive on that feeling. Thrive on that sort of hustle and that कि यार मैंने you know I. आप दुनिया में जो भी कर लेना
I'm not saying that's a good thing but yeah, there is that. New York comparable में मुझे Philadelphia like, that's the place that I personally fell in love with. Ok. वहां पर. It is a beautiful place. Philadelphia की एक बात यह है कि you'll probably in the same road sees a building which is 200 years old and a building that's just now made. Yeah. So that that beauty is there. New York का यह है कि yes, if you live in Manhattan only, it gets too much. But the beauty is कि आप कहीं और भी रहकर नहीं हो जा सकते हैं. So having half an hour access to New York I think is much more fun than being inside Manhattan. Of course, I mean आपका तो ज़हर है कि मैं तो चार पांच दिन के experience है बता रहा जो है irrelevant
वह तो यह के पूरा vacationing Absolutely.
Ok,
so so हां so probably my question was UK, ठीक है आपके पूरा circumstances you had to come back to Pakistan but from from computer science to evolving into you know, academia. Yes. Especially at a time when really the the the the entire industry, I mean, it's like saying कि यार मैं seventies है, मैंने oil के अंदर engineering की और मैंने उसके बाद बत्ता क्यों गाना इसको करनी. Like there is a boom happening and and you let go of that boom with all that experience.
What happened? I think the boom miss Pakistan at that time. Think it I think maybe a few years later ज़्यादा आया था. When I came back, I did want to work in computer science. I got my first job. I actually in fact work with some great people. एक company थी. I really love those people. I'm still connected to them but there was not much money in Pakistan at that time. पांच छह हज़ार रुपए तनख्वाह थी. वही bill लगता था. Petrol में भी खर्च हो गए सारे पैसे. तो फिर वह friend told me यार because I needed to earn a living to literally, Pakistan में इतना नहीं होता है, बाहर के मुल्कुल में होता but if you have to start earning a living at twenty two four to support the whole family then that becomes your primary purpose. Then you will find a way to do that. So, a friend of mine who is very close to high school का दोस्तों, उसने कहा मैं पढ़ाता हूं शामी tuitions. He is a businessman. Now he was studying in IB at that time. He's like यार, you know, I'll I'll give you my tuitions. तुम घर आकर पढ़ा लो. I started teaching the kids and I realized that I've always loved teaching because यार आपने अगर family का ख़याल रखना है एक honest living बना सकते हो और घर जाएगे पुराने में क्या ख़र्च? I left my teaching, my morning jobs and I started going to a school in the morning. तो पहले छह महीने तक मैं tuition पढ़ाई थी tuition उसके बाद I started joining an eleven o'love school कि दिन मैं वहां पढ़ाऊं, शायद मैं tuition करूं, make enough money to support a family in Pakistan. उस ज़माने में I think you'd say middle class would date about fifty, sixty thousand upper middle class. कैसे आप? मैं यहां के survive हो जाए. गाड़ी का वह lease fees निकला है. So, that's how I started. And for, I think, a few years, I didn't really bother too much about thinking more than just, यह मैं पढ़ा रहा हूं. I'll try new to have I had the benefit of being smart. I had a very high IQ. तो I could pick up subjects. All my... I was always good. I was a nerd in school. तो OE level में सात ASB आए, TLs में three ASB आए. तो सब चीज़ें आती थीं. Mhmm. तो वही पढ़ाना शुरू कर दी आपने वापस. And what I also realized was and this is a key insight, kids don't need experts to teach them. They need somebody who just knows a little bit more than them. So, in most of the subjects, even including accounts हो गया, physics हो गया, ad math हो गया, मैंने university में बहुत different चीज़ें पढ़ी थी. वह नहीं पढ़ी थी उसके बाद. लेकिन because I remember what I did. So, when I came back, I would just know a little bit more than them and I would teach them and they would find it very easy my explanation. So I I lucked out that way. I became very popular with the young kids at that time. और उस सुमाने में कोई young बंदा नहीं है. अब तो हम अगर आप कराची हैं तो बीस बाइस साल के पच्चीस साल के लड़के graduate होकर lumps, IBS से, universities, school में पढ़ा रहे हैं because there's a lot of good money there. In my time, not many people did that because सब मुझे यह बोलते थे कि यार अच्छा, आप अभी पढ़ा रहे हो, इसके बाद क्या करोगे? What's more? That was a transitionary role mostly for most people. But as I get as I have recognized it, it's actually a hot profession as well. Yeah. And so, while you were teaching, I I I do believe you you've co founded a bunch of schools. Yes yes. So, I had a good fortune of teaching with some of the best teachers in Karachi. So, different schools से इन्हें बंधे गए तो वहां the main founder of Nixar College, Nasser Khani. He used to be my head of department at another school. तो जब he was setting up Nixar, he asked me for my help. At that time, the committee to make निक्सर college was just two people, him and me. Then his brother came on board after a few months but हम लोग रात को बैठते थे, एक cafe होता था कराची में, उसका नाम था Costa. तो मेरी बड़ी यादद यादें हैं उससे वापस्था because हम लोगों ने दो हज़ार आठ पूरा हर रात वहां बैठकर काम करते थे. We get done from school and tuition and then 9PM to 2AM हम लोग बैठकर बनाते रहते थे. His focus was the land and the building and the teachers and mine was how to innovate to to get kids in the school because most of the kids were going to places like LICM. जिस रासद व्यासद also went. That's the biggest name school, KGS and LICM. How do we get kids here? He was popular. नारासद खानी had connection with good teachers also तो वह बोलाता था. And I work on the admissions and curriculum and all that website उस ज़माने में वह भी चल रही थी नहीं, हर चीज़ आई थी. तो we in a weird a few things. One of them was early admissions के result से पहले आपका admission हो जाता था. Because हमारे ज़माने में जब तक O level result नहीं आता था, A levels पर नहीं होता था. So we did that or that. That was fun for two years. I love that time because they let me, you know, when you and something is new, they let you innovate. Innovation उस time में लगता है just be different. कहते हैं ना karate में तो बड़ी चीज़ होती I don't know if Islamabad की thing है. Everybody wants कि यार कुछ different करते हैं. बस, not for the sake of anything but different हो जाए. तो I got to innovate a lot and I had loved that time for two years. Then I became stale because once things settle down in a school, you know, we have got a thousand kids. We are a good name school. We don't want to rock the board too much. Innovation but I don't care. Let's just keep running this. I got bored. So I just went back to only teaching because I was doing both, you know, some management and teaching. उसके बाद after a few years, some other friends of mine who knew I'd done that, who had also had निक्सर as teachers, they kept pushing कि यार, let's make our own school. And at that time when you were 28, 29, I was getting married at that time. No, sorry. Was already married at that time. I was having a baby at that time. And at that time I realized कि, you know, अपने नाम पर कुछ होना चाहिए. So, निक्सर में they offered to give me some partnership but I gave it up. But then I asked, यार अब time आ गया तो let's just make a school just because, you know, why can't we do it? तो initially Cedar was, Cedar College was the school that we set up. There were about four, five of us, then more came along. But this was, I think, was the first school set up only by teachers. उसके बाद Karachi में अब पांच छह schools ऐसे आ गए who follow the exact same model. Teachers आते हैं, they collect some capital and they set up a school. तो we did we did that with Cedar and it was a big big success the first year. Was a lot of fun. तो that was a good experience in life also. I ran that school. I was a dean, principal for that school for three years also. I think, sorry, two years. Serious college, presious school में भी आ रहा है. Was a school for O levels versus A levels. तो माल करते गए, spend a few years on and off. And then now I'm I'm I feel that once you start once you start having a stable business, you people don't want to innovate. And I feel that without innovation everything is gonna die out, especially at the because you cannot see, you can either not like it. I'm not saying people should like innovation, but they cannot ignore it. It's happening at at exponential speed. And भले आपकी technology हो any, because the, it's simple, you know, like a chip. Now, I don't know if you know this, but your phone key chip is so much more powerful than even computers that send people to. I mean, they say it, but it is actually true. You can do so much on a device. So if that's gonna be happening, and we talked about AI earlier and, you know, I mean, you're having an off camera conversation. But the education industry has to be ready for that. And innovation only comes when small p a small band of people who have nothing to lose will come together, have some insight. The problem is also when we talk about the startup world, I will maybe we'll go into that, is that हमारे यहां बहुत tech लोग आ जाते अगर एक idea आया है, I think people will like it, let's do this. What they don't realize is that for something to really scale, it should be an idea not many people believe in. Because if they believed in right away, everybody will be doing it. Copy तो control, command c, control c, v तो what else. So, I feel that there have to be some people who are looking into the future in education right now and seeing this is how this is working. And they've already changed it. You find them but you don't find them in schools. You find them online. You find them in the in the garb of Tiago Forte हो गया या अली अब्दाल हो गया. They've really revolutionized their domains of how to educate people. And यहां हमारे यहां नहीं हो रहा. I mean, I know Khan Academy came out ten years ago or some, at least if not longer. But we still are stuck to not even acknowledging it exists and it's gonna push them. So we need to really innovate and I decided कि यार, I have to get out of the system. First, I thought I could be in the system and innovate within the system, but the resistance is too much from within the system. अगर आपका अपना school भी हो तब भी बहुत ज़्यादा है because आपका अकेला school नहीं होता. I couldn't afford to make a school on my own so we had other partners who were also teachers and everybody's, I mean, they're all van intention, I guess. But it's their job and they wanna keep that running and I want to innovate because I believe that we all are given some gifts and कभी कभार ना I get very religious about it, केवल. I feel like it's our duty to execute on those gifts and if we don't then कहीं ना कहीं you know, सम्बिर्धम you know, Allah और is not happy withdrawal गुना मिल रहा है हमें. यह some weird philosophical belief है. तो I I need to do this. I said I can hear a desire to at least be able to speak up what you really believe in and do what you really want to do. And वह system के भारी है. Which is why we've actually sit down and made Alt Academy. Makes sense. It's the first step in
trying to dislodge the systems at play. And so I'd love to know more about it. I'm just gonna sort of switch it up to, असाध्यार. Sorry बिलाल. Yeah.
It's my turn now. I'll have a break. I'll have some water effects.
But but tell me a little bit about, you know, your journey and really, what led you to Alter Academy. So,
I'll give you the full picture because I'll also give you the whole context as well. So I was born in Hong Kong, and, just like Bilal, I've also had the the fortune or misfortune of traveling a lot, getting exposed to multiple cultures, different types of people. So I was born in Hong Kong, belonged to a trader family. Dad was sent from Jodiabazaar to Hong Kong to set up the family business over there. Then, used to visit Pakistan since I was two months old, maybe once or twice a year every year. In 2001, my family and I moved to Dallas. July 2001, in September we saw the Twin Towers crash. If you've seen Fahrenheit nine eleven, there's a clip of George Bush in a class, and then they show in other schools how the TV screens went on. I was one of the kids in those settings who saw that happen. Fifteen years later, my brother and I could talk about how that that moment could have left us some left us some PTSD as well. But moved to Pakistan in 2005. Saw for the first time is that there's more than just religious diversities, there's also ethnic diversities as well. You know, went to a pretty decent school, very happy with the education that my parents gave us as well. Did my Olavsum Bayview high, Did my elsum lyceum? At that time, there was no cedar college. Nixxer was new. Nixxer was, that rebel, that young gun that people would go to because they want something different. They something something edgy. I was from a very conservative mindset. I thought that I'd do exactly what my older brother would do. I followed his footsteps, same subject selection and everything. In 2014, I also, I couldn't go abroad. So every A level kid or many kids also, not just an A level. They want to go abroad to study. And even having a passport and nationality, I couldn't go, unfortunately. So I did my, undergrad in Econ and Finance from the University of London, made the decision of working, side by side. It was just something that I wanted to do. I was also told that पहले पढ़ाई कर लो, फिर काम करना. But I was like, नहीं if I if I'm staying, if I was going, if I'm staying, I want to be able to take care of myself and make my decisions, make decisions for myself, you know. So at that age I told my parents that now you are no longer responsible for me. My only request is for to help me figure out how we can pay for my my uni, and that's that. Beside working very early on in twenty in twenty fourteen, I started working at Lyceum back to my, A level school. But very quickly, within six months, I left because wasn't in tune with the culture. January में these guys at Cedar were launching. They were opening up. They had their open house. I volunteered there. Now Bilal, people who see Bilal and I'm sure you'll see this in the comedy, like this guy taught me chemistry, this guy taught me that. He didn't teach me anything. I didn't I wasn't in his class. He taught me a lot of stuff outside of class, but I was never his student in school.
I think that's a plus point for us. Yeah. Yeah. Thank god. I don't think I would have liked too much then.
Yeah. But in February 2015, I still remember February 2 was a Monday. I couldn't start on February 1 because it was a Sunday. 2015, joined the senior team. I was just an intern, but I was that kid who wanted to do everything. I was just fascinated by the idea of working and spending as many hours as I could. I remember that the CEO at that time, Nasa Saab, great fellow, put me on an hourly page rate. And I was like, yeah, I'm gonna figure out a way how I can work more hours to make more money instead of, you know, just getting paid like that. So that sparked this bug in me to just keep working. So I made sure that I was getting exposed to everything in the school. So as an intern, I gave myself this nice fancy title, assistant to the program, coordinator that time, program manager, worked on, community service, worked on student life, helped set up the admissions team, ran the admissions team also for a year, got the whole picture of the school, right? Even college counseling and advisory and stuff like that. But then when I graduated, I fell on some tough times again and I called up बिलाल and I'm like, dude, I need a job. You know, help me figure this out. I had a job offered lineup. Where were you studying, for your college? This was the University of London international program. So completely like, it's a program that's done by LSE. It's just housed over here so you can go anywhere in the world. Right. So I called up बिलाल, said I needed a job. I had a job offer lined up, in London as well in consultancy. Unfortunately, I couldn't go. And बिलाल just says that, fine. Why couldn't you go? There were some financial stresses. Okay. So it was like if I went, I had my last interview there and I was at this company called CAPCO. I emailed them saying that, look, if I come for this interview and I don't get selected, I might not be able to fry back. And, you know, you hear stories कि यार your चाचा ताया मामा went to The States and with $10 फिर Pizza Hut पर काम करके they start flipping patties and, you know, earn their way to college. But, यार, I think in in 2017, times are very different. Inflation has hit everyone in a very different way. So I didn't go. I stayed back. I had a couple of job offers lined up here, and I literally I actually think I gave you an offer you couldn't refuse, maybe.
I like to believe that.
That too. That too because at that time I think and this is also important for for everyone listening as well. What what for me personally is that like I was very, I seek mentorship and I saw that in him. So instantly, gravitated towards, like, where I would feel safe and where I feel like I'd be nurtured to grow to which in whichever direction I'd want to go into. So, yeah, I, in the summers of twenty seventeen, I started working full time at Cedar. Now during the the the three years of university I wasn't just working at Cedar, I also taught on the side, I was also a fitness trainer as well, in my community. So I try to pick up multiple side hustles as well. उस time पर I didn't think I could do acting वरना मैं अपने आप को बेच भी देता online. But yeah, so in I I He's an old soul by the way. He's structured in life. Every day is scheduled and timeline. अच्छा, very interesting. Yeah yeah. So, when बिलाल called me back, he's like, look, you can either teach or you can do something in management. And the idea of teaching, as I said, like, it's a hard job. Right? Like, you see there's a lot of money. Now I taught during university. I taught even when I was in O levels and A levels. But I was like, yeah, I like the the connection with people as well. I don't think I would be able to do that in a classroom. I'd rather focus on building something up. Because I also have this entrepreneurial bug. So he's like, okay. Let's, he's like, look up Casey Neistat, Simon Sinek, Gary V. I'm like, do you want me to be a vlogger for this school? What do you want me to be? He's like, you can do whatever you want. He's like, I'm making an office over here. Literally क्या है? दो by, चार by पंद्रह की feet. Yeah, was a very weird size. It was square by 12. Yeah. Like a railway. Wait a little watch. Was a quarterback. क्या होता
है?
बहुत कुछ वाता था. बहुत कुछ वाता था. Yeah, So, he's like, I'm making you this office over here. I'll get you some interns. You have this iMac. You have a camera. You do whatever you want. So I was like, okay fine. He's like, you can figure out what you want to call the department. I still remember my ID card, my employee ID card said social media executive और मुझे उस time पर पता ही नहीं था कि अगर मैं social media executive हुई या मैं head of department हूं, मैं क्या कर रहा हूं यहां पर? So,
the We end up coming with a good name for the department. Yeah. And for you?
I'll take credits. We end up calling the department, the digital media and communications department because what we essentially did from the summers of twenty seventeen till, the end of, well, we were both there was we figured out a way to connect better with the students. Right? We used the power of social media and content creation to not just build a connection with students in campus, but also be with them when they would leave the campus. Not as alumni, as students. Have a constant connection with them, have a pulse of where they are, what they're feeling. Show to them is that we care. Show to them is that we're giving them value constantly. We're talking to them. So we came up with multiple content streams. By the way, this was new at that time. This was Yeah. There's no other school doing it. Forget no other business doing it. Now it's seen second nature care. Obviously, you wanna have a social media team. But at that time, it was nobody was doing this. And I know, the idea was he took this forward and he did it really well. And people people claim that you know, you know marketing करनी है, school की marketing करनी है and very early on I was opposed to that term, especially for education. I'm very opposed to the term of sales and marketing, for anything in education because it's not about that. It's actually about showing people that you care that your product is going to help them for the long run.
And that itself becomes marketing already itself. People just talk about you. Yeah. And
and so that's what we did. So we basically revolutionized the way schools were even talking to their own students. And he sparked this thought in my mind was that, dude, what if one day this becomes a company? Now this is two months into the full time job. कम actually गया नहीं online. He's like, what if this becomes a company on its own? In January 2018, I had the privilege of meeting नगीन अंसारी who in October 2018 would end up becoming my business partner. Now even during that time I was still teaching. I started this little side hustle called the tuition guys और उस time पर IGTV you must have remembered was new. So I was like यार I'm not gonna put up videos of me teaching economics on YouTube. I'm gonna put it on IGTV and I'm going to, you know, give in class tuitions but I'm gonna make, like, shorter ten minute videos क्योंकि दस minute की time gap थी. I'll just put that up very gangster way, पीछे whiteboard है, writing on that. So all of that happened. Backspace was founded in October 2018. Sorry. I'm going all around the place. But, yeah. And we I started off, a digital media and design con consultancy, which is actually what we call a creative consultancy. It's a boutique firm where we work with, businesses or cause driven businesses that are just trying to do a good job. So we work with people that we feel are cause driven, have a very strong sense of purpose and, have their north star completely tracked and their destination is set. And over the years, we've worked with businesses in the equestrian tourism, equestrian space. We've worked with, sustainability startups. We've worked with, CX startups. We've worked with educationists, got exposure to the whole corporate world. And then in, alongside all of this is then when the idea of Alt Academy was brewing in many different forms. So I had my office of backspace in one side of the building. Bilal had his own office another side. After hours, we would sit and we would think about, yeah, where is this going? Where are we gonna go with then what's the next phase of education and our space looking like? So a lot of thought process, a lot of brainstorming happened at that time. And then in, summers of twenty twenty one, I decided to, take off my mental of being a COO at Backspace and join full time, Alt Academy with Bilal. So, Alt Academy, when did you guys officially start, essentially?
And and and when I say start, I mean, not
for the public. Okay. So I'll tell you. It was already public in 2018. We were pre COVID already there. अच्छा. But it was singly handled by me. Mean, we had a couple of employees but it was bootstrapped by me. Is best. कल क्या रहा था उस time पर वह? हम लोग video content on YouTube for free डाल रहे थे. ठीक है. For for at least two subjects, three almost physics, economics and chemistry. I was putting out the most content because I had the most time I guess. I had given up most of my roles in different places. तो हमने कहा कि यार let let me because I really felt this is where it should go. This is where at least because you see education के बड़े forms हैं. हम जिस जिस area में I am an expert in is probably the high stakes A level, O level exam जिसके लिए बहुत पैसे देते हैं grades आने के लिए. Right. मैं चाह रहा था कि बच्चों के पास कोई ज़रिया ऐसा हो कि कभी भी पढ़ लें, कभी भी पढ़ लें without paying much money or anything at all. So, at that time I truly believe कि business should be sustainable. I mean, मैं बात कर रहा हूं Cedar, Nixxer के time पर भी. We were very gun हो. I was very, very cognizant about how to generate enough income to make it sustainable. तो होता यह था कि पहले दो साल में Nixxer was successful, breaking even out for the second year, seats are also the same. But all initially I recognize the fact कि there is no point of monetizing it. लोगों ने कहा आपने YouTube पर ads नहीं डाले. You know when your videos are only getting 4,000 views or 5,000 views, there's no point. Because in the world over, जो A levels दे भी रहा है, बच्चा बहुत कम है. You'll be shocked to hear the total numbers. We say we think there are too many, they're not. I think chemistry का जो मैं पढ़ा रहा अभी और physics भी आप ले लें. Similarly, the world over has about 30,000 बच्चा. That's it. So there, I mean, not many people are gonna watch that stuff. So I was making content for that. But it was my side hustle. I just I was just कहते ना कि just, putting in the hours to get it going. We were also working on developing other courses कि what kids do with their time. We were looking for we were actually making a gap year program with three of my, you could say, students who are now working with me full time. Graduates, वह चुक गए थे, वह काम कर रहे थे. There's another individual, Daniel Khan Zada, who's now moved to Canada, but he was very big in pushing me towards looking at the future of work, the future of education. So we've got a whole I mean, I've got a whole idea of what Like, the so I'm cutting it. But, like, our brainstorming session. I say brainstorming, I don't literally mean that, k, how could we do this thing better? It was, like, this is what's happening.
This is where we feel we need to go. And we chalked out roadmaps from what would happen in Pakistan, what would happen in neighboring countries, what would happen in The US and The UK, what would the evolution of technology be like. And this evolution of work also stemmed from CNK. It was stemmed by one belt, one road was coming up. We've even thinking about tracking that whole journey in CNK. How could we help improve the entire economy? So we used education as that means to enhance the country, to elevate the country, not as a means to, like, you know, just change the industry or make it marginally better. Makes sense. Yeah. So, तो उसके at
that time the first idea was let's at least kids give the kids enough access to content कि वह पढ़ाई कर लें, अपने grades ला दें. तो जो बाकी चीज़ें हैं जिसमें उनको really interest है, सीखना है, उसके पास time बच जाए because and kid who's in A level O level, उसके parents भी परेशान होते हैं. सुबह school जाता है, वहां fees देता है, फिर tuition होती है. Most of the kids go for tuitions. By the time they're 6PM, they're already tired. They, at that time, they're gonna unwind. They're not gonna develop something more. And our problem is we have, as a nation, we have a lot of young kids who want to develop something. They need to develop. Otherwise, as a nation, our economy won't grow, development नहीं होगी. तो I wanted them to have more skills and more time on their hands. That, one of the ways was to do this. So, दो तीन साल करते रहिए, COVID आया, everybody became digital. We were already there digital. So we knew exactly क्या होना है. We were there, we did all of that stuff. But once COVID died down because you see, I need this to be successful. So I don't want to launch anything during COVID because everybody would feel that COVID के backbone पर launch कर रहे हैं. So, once COVID subsided, everything happened and we made a business plan out of it. This is '20, I think 2021 and I started asking for money. That's the first time it became from just being bootstrapped to now let's become I a made it legit. You know, तो startup का word भी ग़लत throw down होता है. हर चीज़ is not a startup. When we did startups means you can easily get scale. जो हमने schools बनाए थे, वह entrepreneurship थी business था. It was not startup. Mhmm. This was the first time we started look thinking of startup as a business. So, I reached around to a lot of people who invested me in the other projects. क्या है? Somebody's interested in doing this. So, the kind of people for the first time in my life I I was very cognizant about the kind of people coming in with money also. आपको because इसके लिए थोड़ी foresight चाहिए. So you want to have people who have the right internal compasses also and where they think the world is going and Pakistan is going. Because our goal is to not just serve Pakistan but the world. The world only because then you can save you competing against the best. I want to be, I actually honestly truly believe, and I'm saying this. I, you know, I'm pretty humble generally, but I I internally believe I am the best a level chemistry teacher in the world. How do I prove that? I have to be able to sell that in the world, not in Karachi, in one city. So for me, oil was also that also. But then I asked, we raised a good amount of money. I don't know if you can share that, but we raised a decent amount of money to start our project. And then I asked him to I mean, he was helping me raise it. So that's when decided, किया अब हम यह full time कर रहे हैं. We raised it. I quit most of my other commitments anyways कि हम लोग सिर्फ़ इस पर focus करें. We have a good team now. And the idea is कि it'll take some time, but the idea is to alt now is to make sure that we our first phase is to lower the cost massively 10 times, tenfold, one tenth, one twentieth of what a child spends in these four years tenth, eleventh grade, A levels के. जब वह कम करेगा तो फिर उसके बाद और चीज़ें करने का time होगा. So you're talking about
essentially high school High school. ONA levels. बिल्कुल. Right now is the product shipped to market? I mean, is. You have Absolutely. And so what does it look like? So basically before
we had a paywall over the last three years, we've actually served over over 55,000 students. Be it on YouTube or other SaaS platforms if you, edtech ये निकलते रहते थे because most edtech start with technology first. We want to start with education first and the tech comes later. So we're very much okay with using third party tools where educationist can use and put the content forward. तो इनके मिला मिलाकर हमारी community पचास साठ साल लोगों की थी over three years. Mhmm. This last month is when we are testing up a paywall. So, we've we're in beta phase of that paywall. So, we just set it up about two weeks ago. We forgot good traction or the traction at which we want. We don't claim to be going to a unicorn, you know, because we know it's a niche market. जितनी बड़ी भी दुनिया में है, वह levels हैं. And but the, like, the idea would be कि whatever learnings we can take from one area, we can then apply to other Yeah. Grades or other boards. But, you see, you gotta start from an area you have insight of. A lot of startups are only bothered about getting an idea, not realizing कि you have to have a certain insight into how you see the world and the future of that industry before you come up with some idea. Because if you come up an idea that you could have thought about in two months sitting in a drawing room, somebody else can also. And if it's good for you, it's good for them. Ok. So so so अगर मैं थोड़ा सा conversation को थोड़ा, what would the word be? Switch करता हूं चलें. I do want to add one thing, Yeah. I think this might not come up again, but because he mentioned about how he was hired, I wanted to I wanted to put out a point out there that I really truly feel that one of the best things when we're hiring for people is that we should, especially in the modern day now, we should really, unless you're hiring a doctor or an engineer, those are only two specific areas. उसके अलावा we should only hire for attitude. Mhmm. And we should, the skills can be learned. And होता यह है कि I have been very lucky at at least in my my domains of education कि I have been more right than wrong and when I have taken a gut call or an instinct call on hiring somebody even if there was no place in the in in the company for them yet. Like he also, is an example of, like we had no department. So I asked him, you looking for a job? Come, let's celebrate department. And that way I think if people recognize that in most places, that's where innovations do occur because innovations can never occur in a company where you have standard roles. उनका काम होगा? As the ship is running, you keep running it. But to have some parts of innovation, you have to let some people lose free. Yeah yeah. And and that's what I just want to add that there. Makes sense. Conversation
में थोड़ा सा again switch कर दूं. बिल्कुल बिल्कुल. And I'm gonna sort of put some, put you in the line of fire. Sure. We've had some, we've had Nearpair here. We've had a bunch of other sort of tech startup, tech plays here. Mhmm. In fact, NIAP ऐसा पहले है. I I do believe there is Adkasa as well. Adkasa, they're doing some really interesting work with TikTok as well. पहला तो मैं आपसे यह पूछ रहा हूं, how do you differentiate yourself, from from a lot of these other players? Because I feel like, आपने high school बोला ना, तो high school is is that one play that everybody and their moms are really बिल्कुल. Focusing on right now. And somehow it it it hasn't been able to get that traction. Maybe it's because consumer psychology ऐसे sort of react करती है कि वह कहती है कि यार नहीं नहीं हमें तो जब तक brick and mortar नहीं होगा, जब तक shop में like एक building नहीं होगी तो हम नहीं करेंगे. Then again maybe,
चलिए, let's let's start with this question first. So there is that. There is absolutely that. I think there's more of it. There was more of it before than now. What has one was one of the most important insights I noticed that happened during COVID, and, I think most parents or many parents did not internalize that. But what they saw happening during Zoom was they saw exactly what was going on in the classroom. They felt that it was only happening because they were online, but whatever happened in the classroom was being mimic on Zoom. And they got to see the level of engagement in the classroom. Some were not happy with it, many were not happy with it. Because our education system is broke. It's actually broke. You don't let a kid, I mean, you know, younger adults explore themselves. एक तो एक तो वही होता है. But I forgot the question you were asking. I'm so sorry. How do you differentiate yourself? Oh, yeah. So that part or that, so now when we started working on this, when I when I so far, I'm actually been pretty happy to see. I mean, I shouldn't say this competition is also good. But most people I look at this industry right now are tech tech first. Right. Every single startup who may they might have hired educations, but they're not sitting at the decision makers table. They're all either tech or business graduate. And that's been the bigger problem in the edtech space. आप कहीं भी लोग यार भाई हम founder आकर हम यह create कर रहे हैं. Most of them have not spent more than a year in a classroom. The reason why we feel we are confident we are different is because not just me but at least three other you could say founding members have had twenty years of experience in a classroom. That and twenty years can be looked off as you are stale now. But we are still those people who on an average and this is a big industry in Karachi fill up 80 plus students के classrooms every day. Right. And, you know, they're they're back to the brim. So, you obviously understand the model and so. And not just that also. We also bring credibility. The kids know कि यार इनसे पढ़ना है. We study from them or they're popular. So, that's one thing we bring to the table which is, which work and the most ed techs are more concerned about spending the first money on tech. We're very much okay with using SaaS as much as possible that exists already out there, which is third party tools जो है, आप connect कर दें साथ and we're building the learning community. Sensory like Teachable or lot of people. Think of Fake, Teachable, Kajabi, these are all tools available and now you got the community platforms like Tribe and Circle and many more tools out there. Chat हो गया तो आप वह use कर लें. Slack जो काम भी use कर All you gotta do is kids are ok. What I read out also is kids don't want one thing that fits everything. They're ok with using one app for one thing, one app for the other thing as long as they get what they need. Right. Which is high quality instruction which is saving them them time and getting them things in a quick way, not wasting their time. Makes sense. तो because उनकी time बहुत कम बच गया है. So, we wanna save their time basically. But alongside this, I would say is that where there's the expertise as well is that there's that expertise to be able to do something better too. Right? Twenty years of teaching experience allows you to see the entire syllabus and break it down into little nuggets, into golden pieces that is just gonna save the kid time. Right?
And that's another point too is that we have really focused on trimming down the entire content. Cambridge outlines every one of the, correct me if I'm wrong, but a hundred and eighty hours to teach. So, this is something I would I'm sorry. Sorry. So sorry about that. Yeah. So we've
I'll I'll tell you something. Normally, let me give some context to people who don't know this. अगर एक बच्चा A level school में जाता है कराची लाहौर इस्लामाबाद में, वह पूरे साल देता है पचास हज़ार रुपए per month. He pays 6 lakh rupees a month. 6 lakh rupees for the whole year to go to the A level school. Spends hours every day. In fact, if you actually do the math, they spend only twenty five, twenty eight weeks learning in a classroom. You're paying for the whole year. You're actually only learning half a year. Second, the content that we have been able to compress into time. The word I use is compress because you can actually make take any one course and about eighty hours along with practice you can you can actually take the whole course. जो पूरे साल पढ़ते हैं आप अस्सी घंटों में आप online पढ़ सकते हैं. Videos के साथ fifty hours just for video and then thirty hours for practice forty hours and that's all you need and that's the part that we are trying to get to the kids कि लोग you can do this whole thing that people are saying कि यार दो साल लगेंगे आप छह महीने में कर सकते हो सारे subjects का and that's the insight that we want to give to the kids and coming from people who are teachers अगर कोई भारत का बंदा बोले कि यार जल्दी कर देंगे तो वहां agree भी ना करे शायद But we've done this. We know how. We and honestly speaking at there was a time where we had no technology तो teacher classroom में जाना ही पढ़ाई कर सकता था. अब आ चुकी है but we are resisting that change because it's still making us too much money to do it physically. Right,
अगर मैं बात करता हूं, देखिए एक तो आपने यह कहा ना कि, और rather मैं जब बाकी players को देखता हूं तो मुझे ज़्यादातर यह नज़र आता कि they're not really reimagining the the the school experience. What they're doing is they're reimagining the tutor experience. बिल्कुल. Mhmm. अच्छा, on some level it does make sense to me as well. You know, you're taking an audience that has that already has a, a culture that they're adhere to, an understanding of what schooling is. And you're not necessarily going out there and selling them the idea of a digital first school. Yeah. What you're saying is, क्या है, go to your school. The school's gonna be crappy, sure. But tuition's. And so if I look, revert back to my high school experience, honestly my high school experience was mostly me. I mean, I had 3% on average attendance across multiple courses. 33% and Sir, which school was this? Beacon house, बनीगाल actually. Were at the foothill of इमरान खान's house. Ok. And so, वहां पर जो है मैंने I was running the MUN, I was taking the teams to YDS. Wasn't that real learning field? That is, is, to be very honest. Mean, of things I think that's what schools should really be doing. हां, a lot of what I did there was what what helped build me. University didn't by and large. My high school did. But I bet most of the time that was there, that built you was spent outside the classroom. Yeah, I mean I like I said 3%. Oh, 3%. Yeah, you are already outside the classroom. Yeah, so. Yes. So, but but ज़हर पढ़ाई भी करनी थी तो पढ़ाई के लिए हम जाया करते होते थे. Anyone who's from Islamabad, main city Islamabad knows of this this place that used to be there. It was called आसास. जहां पर basically इस्लाहाबाद का any and everyone from beach तो इस्लाहाबाद जो main downtown इस्लाहाबाद है ना इसके कुछ legacy schools है, city school था, ठीक है house था, roots था, head start था, problems था और यह you would know any and everyone over there across वह और वह सारे के सारे इकट्ठे होते थे आसास में. है. एक आसास थी एक आधार. These are the teachers? The students and the students. Ok. Some of the best teachers were here and then all of the students would then take classes in the evening with these students. For example, मेरी जो economics मैंने पास की थी, वह there was this PTI senator now, सदाखा दाबासी. Who was an economics teacher at the time and I think owned a Saas as well. If I was a student back in the day, I would have really, मैं अगर utility देखूं मैं कहूं कि यार अच्छा what what what is पाप? फिर मैं कहूंगा, मुझे अगर कोई कहता है कि यार Beacon House ना जाओ, ABC Academy चले जाओ. For your schooling, that would be a major, you know, cynical moment for me. Mhmm. And even looking back, I wouldn't go do that because we can always taught me a lot. बिल्कुल. मुझे अगर कोई कहता है कि यार वह छह बजे तुम गए हो जिसने मुझे कुछ दादा नहीं हुआ. उसने मैं यह कर दिया क्योंकि मैंने पढ़ाई खुद ही पढ़ रहे होते थे. End में खुद ही पढ़ रहे थे. And अगर वही चीज़ मुझे कोई बेहतर experience मिलता है ना I was a techie, I was a computer science. Going towards a computer science track as well. तो I would have loved that. Right? So पहला question तो मेरा यह है कि you guys, as per my understanding, are trying to reimagine a school experience. Absolutely. Whereas everybody else that I talk to is like, यार, we don't want to disturb schools. We want to disturb the academies.
No-no, we want to disturb schools. The academies are already out the window, in fact. I'll tell you. Yes, there are still people who go for tuitions, but, what's happening, at least in the cities in Lahore and Karachi, is that, एक तो they're getting better teachers. Teachers are becoming better, and they're all teaching in a school. So it's not like you need to go to शामे unless, of course, you're into all the activities that you said. And the way we want to disrupt schools is, I mean, is that we want them to understand कि this is the only way to educate now. What you just, what your experience was, imagine digitizing that. The morning time could only, should only be involved in projects and activities. And what we want to do is the kids should study from because, honestly speaking, these a level subjects and one level subjects are the same every time. I've been teaching the exact same thing for twenty years. Yes. Your delivery gets better and evolve, but it's the almost the same content. You what I see the future of education is this, that even if we have to have these buildings where parents have to send their kids, we wanna revolutionize what happens inside them. They should only be they should only go to school to engage in social learning, which is with other friends. Because when you're sitting in a lecture in a classroom, it's not social learning. You can't say a word to anybody. Let alone talk to your friends but talking to your friends is the most natural thing that comes to us. So what we've done in schools is we've removed all the fun out of them. मैं अभी तक पढ़ाता हूं एक दो घंटे school में. When a kid enters my class, उसकी शक्ल में ना कहते हैं ना सही जान निकली भी होती है. He's, you know, he's tired. He's he's doesn't wanna be here. And our idea is this kid, that's fine. You don't have to be here. Do what you were doing in in your morning times. MUN, sports, projects, whatever, citizenship, building skills, things that can only be done on one or few or one on one level. Let's say you want to start doing lighting, learn lighting for this. You can't sit in a forty two hour classroom and learn this. You have to take the lights and move it around. यह होना चाहिए सुबह. जो हम पढ़ा रहे हैं, उसके लिए you don't need a 50%, 100% lecture hall. यह video है, यह देख लो. And what and it's not a new concept. You know, it's it's what we call a flipped classroom model. यह Khan Academy भी कर रही है अपने world world school house में. They partnered that school with as you know, state university. And there are many other schools trying this out now कि होता क्या है simply this? The role of the school and the teacher has to drastically change. A teacher is no longer should not be the person who's standing there to give me expert knowledge. Because वह वैसी लोग कम हैं. तो वो आपकी economics ही out हुई भी ना system की. Experts कम है like people like me. Who charge a lot of money for the few hours of their time. Because हम experts हैं. अगर हम मेरा digital because मैंने yes, a live class might have more interaction. But I, but the benefit of not having that is this कि your kid can spend the whole day or whenever the whole week if he wants to in developing other skills, literacies and
social learnings के लिए आप All forms are twenty first century skills, So you have like these skills that you need. Sorry, I'm cutting you off. But we often talk about an individual level. Your experiences, right, from BMI, all the extracurriculars that you did, your work, your profession, you did computer science as well. Now, you could have stuck to that track, right? And I I've I've seen your podcast, you did. But you had exposure to so many other areas that got you to be a more well rounded individual, right? Schools,
US में US. And you're more just that. More just, more than just well rounded. It gives you the ability to connect dots in areas people were not connecting dots. Exactly. That's the thing. You know, लोग example देते हैं Steve Jobs की. उसकी example होती है. उसने एक font का course ले लिया था and all of this. It's literally connecting dots. I'll tell you the reason I'm sitting here is because I took random courses in university which was intro to psychology, intro to middle eastern history, to to computer science and database systems Because that exposure is what connects. YouTube क्या है? It's the biggest exposure tour in the world. It's the biggest teacher in the world. So, when we talk about innovating
and all of these things, I'm sorry. I'm No no no, but this is true. That that's like we wince. Yeah. We can spar on this one because, see, schools expect their kids to become more well rounded. Schools expect their kids to do a lot of ECAs. But they also expect their kids to go to class, be attentive in class, get the grades as well and then go to a fancy university that then they can show to their alumni as well as I can hear you well. So I think I I understand that. मेरा सवाल इसमें probably ही आएगा. And and based on what I'm hearing from you guys as well is that
you're you're essentially giving classes for specific subjects. Yes. Math, physics, and so on and so forth. And I'm hearing when I speak to any EdTech player Yeah. I hear the same things because, obviously, they're all trying to solve the same problem. Problem or at least in terms of the vision document are pretty much aligned. The problem that I see is कि यार आपने यह तो कह दिया कि हमें इस broken system को fix करना है. बिल्कुल. ठीक है? Broken system क्या है? Structured है. जो है वह कहते हैं कि यार हम आपके बच्चे को well rounded बनाएंगे लेकिन हमें पता है कि हमारा structure जो है वह आपके बच्चे को well rounded. That it's it's an oxymoron. It defeats the entire purpose, right? To say that हमारी यह routine follow होगा और उस routine की basis के ऊपर. I was a horrible student for my administration because I was just never good at structured program systems. और मेरा यह होता था कि मुझे हर वक्त constantly कुछ ना कुछ different different different hop around चाहिए होता था. वह मेरा हिसाब से And I think मिला नहीं kids won't be in university. Absolutely. And most of the people who actually sit on that side of the table to be very honest are are like that. So you can begin to see कि leadership skills के अंदर एक element यह आता है कि यार मुझे जहां पर मेरा दिमाग़ जा रहा है ना मुझे उसमें expand करने दिया जाए. Mhmm. So so अगर मैं इस edtech model पर भी आऊं तो इस पर भी most of the people are saying कि यार मैं so again they're not necessarily redesigning the model. What they're doing is they're digitizing the model. Yes, exactly. और वह उसमें आख़िर में यह कह रहे वह कह रहे हैं कि ठीक है हम तुम्हें video on demand दे रहे so now your days are free. मेरा पाक्षाण है to be very honest सबसे बड़ा problem जो मैंने realise किया है in terms of skill building and education दोनों को मैं connect ही करूंगा. बिल्कुल. वह यह रहा है कि we have done an incredible job at identifying the problem and motivating the individual कि यार भाई अपने आप को fix करना है. ठीक है? अब पूरी जनता wait कर रही है अच्छा जी fix कर. तो यह तो समझ आ गई fix करना है. हम जिस तरह चलने उस तरह नहीं चल सकते. बिल्कुल. The reason why I'm saying this is because मैं थोड़ा सा flip करता हूं. Give me some time. बिल्कुल बिल्कुल. In the age of artificial intelligence, मैं content से मेरा जाहिर है तालुक है. आपने off camera पहले भी बताया one of the very interesting things that you did was the Khan Academy model of creating sort of micro modules which which I call the micro modules क्या? You don't necessarily saying कि भाई credit hour system के अंदर घंटे की class है. You're saying कि यार मेरे nuggets of information मैं throw करूंगा because that is how the new age consumer honestly consumes content and information, right? So मैं maximum भी peak करूंगा तो आपकी case में कितना है? पंद्रह minute का है. Fifty minutes का मैं एक वह throw करूंगा. Problem मेरा इसमें यह आ रहा है कि अगर तो वह structured है ना जो जिस तरह design हुआ हुआ है. So मैं अगर एक मैं एक Media studies? नहीं नहीं नहीं. Tourism. Global perspectives.
Global perspectives
का आता है. उसके बाद history का आता है. The problem is a lot of times when people are trying to find the problem in the first place, they are finding a problem in the broken system and they are saying कि हम इस broken system के अंदर ही किस तरह से करेंगे? Mhmm. And a lot of them are saying we are radically redesigning that they are not. They are not. Radically redesigning means that मैं आज एक ऐसी चीज़ बना रहा जिसमें आज से दस साल बाद A lovers को लोग भूल जाएंगे. बिल्कुल. लोग actually मेरी certified मतलब हम इतना डरपोक हैं to be very honest हम इतना डरपोक हैं कि हम यह भी नहीं मान सकते कि कल को American university हमारे certification को मानेगी.
If on the face of it, you are absolutely right. It might not look like कोई ज़्यादा innovation हो रही है जो हम कर रहे हैं. उसमें multiple problems भी हैं and I will tell you, we what we are doing is what you are seeing us do is the first step to a multi step process. But उस process के कुछ limitations भी हैं. But before I tell you what we are doing, let me answer that I can answer the questions and we want people to know कि we don't want to just ok कहते हैं ना, monopolize what we're doing. People can do, we want to spread the idea around because the more the voodoo is, the better everything becomes. The better the system becomes. The better the becomes. So, एक सबसे पहले मसला यह है, this is a real problem in Pakistan. You cannot be, you cannot under do any undergrad study. So, we are actually waiting for every company in the Pakistan to say we don't need bachelor's. The day that happens, जिसने Facebook ने कहा था, I think Google ने कहा ही कहा था कि you don't need that. The day that happens and that comes from the industry. Then because उसके अलावा आपको क्या चाहिए bachelor's चाहिए आप आप America को भूल जाए आप तो बात हमेरी ही करना पढ़ने की बाहर जाना है हम एक उसके लिए मेरे levels करते हैं because एक एक correlation system है लेकिन अगर आपको पाकिस्तानी batches करना है तो आपको HEC की certification चाहिए. जिसमें you know you've heard of these new systems called the American school and I spent six months trying to figure out how we can start an American school system in Pakistan. उसकी भी permission चाहिए American state department से. आप नहीं कर सकते. आप आज तो चलो यार IP कर लेता हूं मैं. आपको पता है आप IP भी पूरा नहीं कर सकते जो European system है because you still have to give Park City सामित उर्दू जो आपको आना है वापस वह levels पर. अच्छा अच्छा funny thing is about हमारे यहां इतने लकीर के फ़क़ीद है पाकिस्तानी because you also have to make a viable business model. In the world over we call, I mean there are two or three big players in the A level O level market. एक Cambridge है, एक EdXL है. Cambridge में अपना ही जो ग्यारहवीं जमात का exam होता है उसको हम O levels बोलते हैं. वह change हो चुका दुनिया में. It's called IGCSE. England में it's called GCSEs. We are so stuck with the name that Cambridge has tried everything for us to change to IGCSE. We पाकिस्तानीs don't. Schools don't want to change just the exam they give. जबकि मैं पढ़ाता हूं IGCSEO levels. There's no difference. There's a difference of 5%.
If anything is actually better, there's a longer subject list which means that there's variety for the students. We not, we are a bit averse to even accepting that change too. And the second problem is कि government is not changing anything.
So, you have to do these subjects. So, after trying a lot of things. थोड़ा सा problem हुआ. I'm not necessarily saying you don't do these subjects. To be very honest, chemistry is is is is a very powerful subject. There's a reason why some foundation subjects general sciences के, math के, language के, वह आपको पढ़ाए जाते हैं, world over पढ़ाए जाते हैं. बिल्कुल. What I am saying is, how do you integrate diversity? सुनाव,
the name? Sorry, UKG. Yes, so how do you integrate diversity within your
education learning outcomes where the child can sure, एक बच्चे के दिमाग की यह तौहीन है कि वह अपने दो साल के अंदर सिर्फ तीन tracks को figure out कर हैं. I completely agree. ठीक है. I am a new age. उस बच्चे का दिमाग बहुत आराम से वह coding भी सीख सकता है. हमने कहा यार what wind? Just do the certification and focus entirely on that and then That's all it. यही है. यही तुम्हारा success का metric है. बिल्कुल. जिसकी वजह से वह अजीब और गरीब किसम के डब्बे वन गए with absolute no flavor and no substance
That that generally is part of the plan. What you're saying is not something that we've not thought about and are actually working on. कि we have to give them something else. The problem is that adoptation, adoption ही नहीं अभी हुई. इस एक idea कि see, it's like that. When Google came, they were not the first surgeon general. पहले Yahoo था Alta Vista था. They made it better. Right now, we're not even there yet. We're not even have people who are using Alta Vista. People are still thinking कि नहीं यह classroom जाएगा. अभी तो parents को देखें because unless you become sustainable, unless you have a billion dollar fund, you have to become, you have to find some sustainability somewhere. Our our biggest customers are parents. They are if if if honest to you what you talked about ना, if enough parents talk like you, the schools wouldn't do what they doing you know schools are getting away with this because parents are not bothered about this so what is first of all we have to get the parents to be figuring out कि यार this is a form of saving your money एक कहते हैं आपको trust build करना है I mean, trust can be built on two things. यार, your ad ID आपने बोला आपका idea radical है. The problem is that we are we are very good with trying a new restaurant. We'll say यार यार एक बड़ा funky idea, let's try that. New drink है. Education में लोग ज़्यादा conservative हो जाते हैं. Specially where I where we come from in Karachi. As much as we like to talk about Karachi being very up there and hip, Karachi में actually people are more conservative about changing anything about their schooling. एक बच्चा school जाता है, वह वहीं रहता है. मैंने देखा लोहौर में बच्चे change भी करते हैं schooling. कराची में नहीं है यार. सुबह पहले साल वहां गया, वहीं रहेगा. So, एक तो वह mind shift होना है कि there's an alternate in the world. So, the problem that you were saying with the other ethics is also adopt adoption. That parents are not even thinking this is the right model to adopt in the first place. Then we come to this care how it's delivered. I agree with you, KR. There is a very easy way of integrating all of this stuff. We've tried this model with Cedar पहले. When I was running the school also, used to have something core courses. These were courses that were mandatory for the child to take in addition to the 3A levels. There were eight of these in their two years. उसमें graphic design से लेकर, you know, world politics, history of the second world war, cold war, multiple चीज़ें से कहा जो आप बच्चे के पास जो मर्ज़ी कर ले, उसका कोई exam नहीं होता था. And some kids would never study but some kids really took those classes. The problem was कि the economics came into play. Many parents said कि times और है मुझे बच्चे को grade चाहिए सिर्फ़. So, and if the kids are not getting the grade, the parents blame those courses कि यार वह वहां पढ़ा था ना इसलिए उसने पढ़ा नहीं इसके लिए. आप बंद कर दो उसको. The problem is parents were not seeing it. This is a few years ago only problem. You have to have us, कहते ना उसको critical mass चाहिए आपको कुछ चीज़ करने के लिए. So, we are still develop. So, I have not given up on that idea of what you just mentioned के courses. We actually, by the way, we've had a couple of curriculum developers develop at least six of those courses which involve if you, if, OECD की claim, OECD, I'm sure you heard the organization. They and there's a, group called p twenty one. They have come up with a list of literacies, skills, and attitudes that the next generation of learners have to have. So we actually designed those courses from the ground up. We've not made them yet because they were to be delivered in person. Now like I said to you कुछ चीज़ें in person ही हैं. हर चीज़ हम video पर नहीं कर सकते. यह जो चीज़ है ना जो हम अभी बात Alt Academy कर रहे हैं. This is I actually have been teaching this for twenty years and I'm telling you this is the crappiest thing in the world कि हम बच्चे को तीन subject का exam दिलाना. I am completely on with you because I feel I want to put myself and everybody who does what I do out of business. ये जो चीज़ें almost free मिल जाएंगी या free मिल जाएंगी. तो फिर हम attention after six months or a year. This can happen today. It can only take some time. Parents already realize कि यार यह जो चीज़ बचा पड़ रहा है, यह तीन महीने में पड़ सकता है. Mhmm. दस हज़ार रुपए में पड़ सकता है जिसके लिए इसको छह लाख और एक साल ज़्यादा नहीं करना है. अब मैं अपने बच्चे को कैसे खा सकता हूं? You have to give the parent that bandwidth for their child. That's when that comes in and eventually a kid will say कि यार this O level, O level, is boring. Yeah. And I know it's boring and it is. And that's fine. We'll figure out a way to interview that into the real learning that is supposed to take place. Think about sciences. Real science or engineering happens in a lab. आप वहां बनाना चीज़ें सीखते हो. हम तो नहीं करते lab. हम सिर्फ़ lab exam के लिए कराते हैं. हां. क्यों? Because सब ने कहा वहां result लाने हैं. मैंने आपसे कहूंगा कि there's a tipping point happening waiting to be happen either the companies say कि हमें university degree नहीं चाहिए. तो बच्चा बोलेगा हमें we don't have to go to university. Then we don't have to do the requirements because जो HEC requirements हैं are only for university. Honestly speaking, you don't have to do A levels. You don't have to do inter inter also, right? So, once those requirements and which are becoming more and more flexible, I predict दो तीन पांच साल में हम हो जाएंगे. So, we want to gear towards that. And operationally, we're structured for that too, Right? So, like, this this talk, this track
track that we've gotten on also about more of a a liberal format, a more personalized format as well. We have one eye on everyone says, k, we have one eye on the future. But when I say, k, we have one eye on the future, we're looking at how parents are going to perceive Alt Academy ten years down the line. Right? Parents like yourself who have their child, in the very early ages and are thinking about what's high school gonna look like, what's middle school gonna look like for Rafael. Right? And then over here we also have one eye on what the learner of the future will look like, right? There's two different decision makers over there, two different stakeholders both of them have to be catered to differently as well. Schools in the past have seen that parents actually in the past or even up until now will see that कि यार my child as बिलाल mentioned, I'm gonna get a referral from my, either my older kid or my daughter's kid, my, you know, कि भाई की, बेटी, you know, whatever. And then or they're going to look at what's happening in their community as well. Now looking at these different behavior patterns, we've also started tracking out, k r, how do we, number one, if parents themselves are seeing que they have to be engaging with their own sense of community to make a better informed decision for their child, that's exactly what they're hoping for their kid to also have one day. Is a group of people that they can rely on, is a group of people that they can grow from and learn from as well, that they can seek some kind of solace with as well or some kind of, like, you know, community with as well. And that's what we're focusing on too because all of the learning that you had was not just experiential but also very communal as well. Right? All these leadership as you mentioned YLES, debating, all of those things, they require a lot of community, aspects to it too which unfortunately can only be done in the best way possible once it's in a physical setting. Right. Digitally, you have to start getting kids to understand also. Have to start getting students to understand exactly there is a need for that. Right. Which is why today we've also started off with the guidance program altogether. So you've got one track that just makes sure कि your a level prep, your exam, test, assignment prep is all done in a spick and span way. But also, you're not, just like when you're in school, you're not just studying for the whole year. You're doing extracurriculars, you're in sports, you're prepping for your college, applications. Similarly, over here, now kids have interest around gaming, around crypto, around, you know, going DIY with things as well. And we've made these different forums, these different spaces altogether. But most importantly, there's also now this requirement. This is need also, which, unfortunately, we're a bit late to the game as a society is focusing on well-being. Mhmm. Right? Social, emotional, mental well-being, all of those things have to be taken care of. That's also something that we need to be talking about. That's also where some space that we have to kind of, that's that's an area that has to be ingrained into everybody's operational plan, I feel. Makes sense.
If I were to pick a few things from some what you said, एक तो आपने बोला कि customers are parents and I think that's a very very important point right there. And so you really have to build trust with the right customer who's paying not with the for a lot of people they're trying to focus on even with a with a customer centric approach they're thinking यार consumer मेरा जो student है वह क्या चाहता है तो मैं उसके around अपने आप को design करूं. Mhmm. But the the decision makers are not the students. No matter how flashy or or or or consumer driven it is, the fact is in terms of a a paywall, the person paying for it Is the parent. Is the parent. And so it's for the child to go out there and convince their parent, listen, like, this is the modern world where digital is the is the primary thing. That's close to impossible unless you have very, very progressive parents. And so the adoption then becomes more complicated and so on and so forth. But I would want you to take off your academic hat. Sure. And put on your startup hat. बिल्कुल. Right? As a as a as a startup founder. And and and give me an insight, not just with yourself, but I was trying to do a a a some research recently for a let's call it a project that I'm working on. And I looked at, the EdTech space in Pakistan across the board. And what I found was you primarily have two sorts of people working in the space. You either have individuals who are looking at scale, and anyone who's looking at scale is focusing on one area only and that is high school students. I don't know why that's so. But it's exclusively high school students or specific CSS or इस तरह की वह extra चार पांच. बिल्कुल. SAT, GRE, वह सारी चीज़ें से कहाती हैं आपको. And then you have these skill based platforms that are exclusively focusing on boot camps because उनका quality का एक problem आ जाता है. तो वह कहते हैं कि यार एक instructor होगा और वह digitally generally digital skills एक set of students को सिखाएगा और the idea is to upskill them to be able to make them job worth. तो job worth देना से उनकी बढ़ा रहे हैं. Mhmm. अच्छा जो दूसरे वाला मैंने बोला उसका तो scale का वैसे ही मस्ला है. So when I look at Pakistan where, uh-uh, कल I was speaking to someone on the podcast and they were mentioning कि almost 4,000,000 adults are entering पाकिस्तानी uh-uh, essentially the workforce every year and that's a crazy number. Like you you cannot इतना बड़ा tsunami आ रहा है लोगों का क्या आप उनको figure out ही नहीं कर पा रहे हैं? तो जब आपने earlier बोला कि यार मैं सिर्फ़ और सिर्फ़ education as a means of certification नहीं देख रहा, मैं education as a means of economic activity देख रहा हूं मेरी बड़ी powerful और important चीज़ है. जी. How do you train the the the economic wealth creator of the future? Right? तो उसमें आप पूरी की पूरी supply chain को देखेंगे. आप देखेंगे कि यार मेरा बच्चा जो है वह start होता है एक funnel के एक certain why is everybody hard stuck and hard focused on high school जब scale की बात करते हैं क्योंकि boot camp तो आप side पर करते हैं वह तो एक niche market के लिए एक बहुत specific audience के लिए है very expensive उस तरह से. Scale में आप cost कम कर देते हैं. जब cost कम करते हैं तो बहुत सारे लोग आ सकते हैं. बिल्कुल. और radical change आपको अंतर से आ सकता है. अब इसमें another reason why कि कि कि मुझे I find it odd that high school is the major driver. I understand the logic जो generally मुझे दी जाती है कि यार that is where the most amount of money is being spent. That is the transitionary periods. Periods everybody wants कि यार एक एक aspirational value होता है इसी कि यार मुज़मिल भाई is somewhere in the society and he knows what one must learn to reach a better place and so बिल्कुल. उसने कहा मुझे digital कोई product दे दे, ठीक है? Why didn't people begin to target early learning programs जहां पर parents are much much more open to take risks? Why didn't they target? अच्छा पहला तो early वाला हो गया. ठीक है. और फिर वहां से फ़ायदा यह होता कि जाकर बाद ऊपर ले जाता है नहीं उनके पास same बच्चा है जिसको वह ऊपर तक ले जा सकते हैं. या फिर beyond high school where I am like कि यार high school में तो मुझे एक standard चीज़ मिल ही रही है but high school के बाद is where the real आपको पता है Pakistan में on average high school 30,000,000 sorry 3,000,000 बच्चा enroll होता है in any sort of post high school program.
Includes 3,000,000? I think but I think undergrad सिर्फ़ एक million तक करता होगा. Undergrad एक minute में भी कम करते हैं. सात आठ नौ ही
नहीं sorry हां. 1,200,000 undergrad कर रहा था and this includes any in every HEC recognized university. सही है. उसके बाद आपका diploma है, associate's degree है so onus so forth है. वह सारा सारा 3,000,000 है roughly आपका बच्चा वह कर रहा है. इनके वालेदयन particularly from the middle and lower middle income backgrounds इस hope में करते हैं कि हमारा बच्चा अवसर वन जाएगा. बिल्कुल. ठीक है? यह तो होता है. तो why is, why did everybody focus on on on areas जहां पर मतलब वह वाली बात है मुझे समझ नहीं आ रही कि पचास companyयां एक problem को solve कर रही हैं, कोई भी problem solve नहीं कर पा रही. एक उससे बड़ी problem exist करती है, bigger market size है, bigger opportunity. अच्छा 3,000,000 जो बच्चा enroll हो रहा है उससे बहुत ज़्यादा बच्चा high school के बाद drop out हो गए घर जा
some of those things. You wanna go first? So,
fun fact, I was also part of the initial IV team. I was behind the scenes helping बिलाल and everybody else set it up too. And something that came up over there was that it's, which was very interesting for all meet at that time to find out was how capital intensive it is. When you talk about the early years, right, number one, I feel personally in my opinion if you decide to go on a scale oriented solution, one that's more tech inclined for the early years in a way it could be I don't want say detrimental but it might be a disservice to the child's upbringing as well. Right? Like earlier before the recording we spoke about the social aspect of even homeschooling too. Right? And at the early years there's so many developmental, challenges that a child faces, their families also face because for families, for new parents, they're also learning and they're experimenting with their kid. So schools by default have to end up providing if at the very least have to provide a safe space. Right? Number two, I feel that what's also a challenge is that we don't have the right expertise also for the early childhood. Right? Like, शाज़ाद रॉय, for example, in his, one of his videos on Facebook I saw, actually said is that के, you you won't go to a doctor who is actually a mechanic and you're not gonna go to a lawyer who's actually a doctor. So, why are you sending your child to a school with a teacher that doesn't have the right qualifications to actually teach your child? Right? That just goes to show us that कि आप कोई भी तबका ले लें, आप कोई भी background ले लें, आप कोई भी school ले लें. The importance of teacher training and also just fundamental knowledge and competencies are so high is that by default schools on their own before we even think about talking about this problem at scale, schools should probably just look themselves in the mirror and ask, hey, how can you do this better? Right? So that the high school problem is not the problem to be solving. It's also where the funnel starts.
You know, well that's that's my that's my point. Yes, there are so the the एक point तुमने बोला था a few points out exactly second. एक तो expertise नहीं है. दुनिया में ना edtech में काफ़ी ज़्यादा काम primary levels पर हो रहा है. My child who goes to IB, she uses three tools. वह सारे are much better than anything in Pakistan we've had. But their early learning के हैं, उसमें IXL एक आता है, उसमें there's, I don't even remember the other one's name, I've seen it. And she loves it. See, so it's just for sharing their information. But they are they're very tech friendly and the kids use iPads in class once in a while but they cannot do it every day. The reason why, I can give you the reasons why not and the reasons why. The reasons why not, one of them is this. Second is, you want interaction. So, like he said, the startup cost is too much. Like, जितना पैसा मुझे अगर हमने करना कि the amount of money we needed to raise to do Alt Academy digitally and we can with this money we can easily serve 10 to 20,000 students easily. The same amount of capital is been spent more so in the IV school जिसको भी चार साल हुए हैं और भी दो सौ बच्चा है वहां. It's probably just breaking even now. The amount of investment and the slow pace needed and and then secondly expertise से बात होगी. एक और area है कि आपने notice किया होगा most parents when they, like, even when you get older and your child gets older, like, my child is now nine. I'm not as worried about her daily activities as I was when she was one or two. We with the early years of nursing years, we हम उसकी हर चीज़ देखते थे. खा क्या रही है, बी क्या रही है, उठ कब रही सो कब रही है. नौ साल क्योंकि she'll go play tennis on her own, she'll come back, we know what she's eaten and all that. We we're ok with that. We're not monitoring her like a like a, you know, helicopter parent कह लो आप. तो जब ये जब नई चीज़ें आती हैं ना, at most parents are very averse to trying anything new at the earliest years. Like, we actually told, I am, I am so confident about IV and this program that मैंने अपनी बच्ची को, I went to KGS like the biggest brand name school in Karachi. I could have gotten in line to get my kid there. I had the money resources to go to Karachi American school also. I didn't bother any of those schools. But my friend and his wife, both are educationist. They said हम IV में यह plan है, यह बनाएंगे. मैंने कहा sign me up. My daughter I'll take give I'll whatever money I have I'll give you that and I'll put my daughter in here also because I believe in that. But it's a slow process. It can't be a tech startup. That's the problem. Now एक तो reason हो गया यह why doesn't early happen. Now, why does high school happen so easily? Because people people are resistant to change. Like, मैं ख़ुद क्यों कर रहा हूं? Because this is the only real area of expertise I have. If I had early years, I would do that. If I had post A levels, I would do that. But why do people only do this? Because that's because in this age group is where you start becoming a lecturer. A ninth grade class, tenth grade class is not engaging. It's a lecture model. Lecture models are the easiest to digitize. So when even education became digitized internationally, सबसे पहले MIT ने किया था अपनी university का courseware, open courseware. That was a lecture, record on video. That's the easiest thing. We do, we go for the easiest. So, every tech startup is going for the easiest solution. यार, record a lecture बैठकर और वह वन जाएगा आपका. That's not how learning happens, but because that's how we know we did that. Now, why doesn't innovation happen at the university level? I actually went to HEC. I met, I think, the top second or third person. यह हमें university खोलनी है. The long list of what requires, हम educationist हैं. We couldn't cover that. But I know, I can't even name the people who have licenses to open universities. They were like, wow, how are you getting a license? So, हमारे and you cannot open a university unless government gives you a license. It is not possible. आपको एकड़ी एकड़ों की ज़मीन चाहिए. Like, ज़मीन is the only thing you need. ज़मीन and पैसे चाहेंगे and that's it और PhDs चाहिए. And Pakistan में I mean I heard from somebody else also but I also know this from first hand. The way PhDs are coming out of Pakistan are just copy pasting international research and they get a ठप्पा and PhD वन चुके हैं. They don't learn how to teach. So innovation का फ़ायदा क्या है? Look, अगर मैं innovate करूंगा अभी तो degree तो वह university दे रही है ना. ZYBES देगा या IBA देगा या वह देगा. Problem यह है कि आप बोलो यार चलो हम उनकी पढ़ाई बेहतर कर देते हैं. The पढ़ाई is all dependent on the person making the course. Tomorrow that changes, what do you know? The reason why high school gets done is because they're standardized. The the नुक़सान of this also is the fact that these are high stake, high stake standardized exams. इधर हमारे internal metric ही होते हैं जो हर different board के चार पांच तो board है हमारे local. उनके एक ही exam आता है ना, you can know exactly क्या आने वाला इसमें. Cambridge का भी यही है. तो it's an easier problem to solve for most people. That's why they get into this. The skills problem is also the problem that they're trying to solve for, but intentions are right. But I don't know anybody who actually did the skills level work at a mass scale before tech came along. Skills are always there before tech came along. So the real person should have who are who needed to start their program would have been people who are working in that industry space in the first place. Because because previous to tech also we could have had institutes. We know there were some but it was not very adopted. लोग नहीं कर रहे थे because hard skill. अभी भी if you really want to learn a skill, I, if I want learn a skill, I don't trust any पाकिस्तानी giving me that skill lesson. I'll spend the money or I'll go to YouTube and do it online from international because skills are universal. They can learn from anywhere. So, हमारे यहां वहां फ़ंस जाते हैं. Anybody now saying, yeah, we'll have a Pakistani place platform to teach skills. Might as well take another international platform, dub it in उर्दू and give that. Why do we recreate the wheel? और यह जो high schools का है, I want this to be this, like I really feel that this should be out of business. The ideal situation would be all that we're doing is done for free so that people start realizing कि यार अब क्या कर सकते हैं हम? Because
and then to answer the question why are people doing this because it's easy. Like, why am I doing it different? But why are people doing it? But I feel like there's also a very important connection to draw over here. Let's assume that all of the players out there are doing a like, they I'm not I'm not gonna assume. I know that they're doing a great job. Everybody is doing a great job. Everybody is trying to solve the problem the best way they can. Am sorry about that. Great job. Well like I You are very nice and Gen Z ish. Yeah but I trying to be inclusive like there is lot of abundance let's just say that. ठीक है? Abundance. Abundance है. Now if we are all able to solve the job well, right, and everybody has their couple of thousand kids that they're serving, they they, fingers crossed, solve the problem of future of work. It's a funnel. It's a it's it's cyclical. Number one, we also have to acknowledge. Right? Not everybody can become a leader. Right? The same way, not everybody can become a doctor, not everybody can become a lawyer, not everybody can become a chemist, not everybody can become a podcaster. Everybody has their own skill sets, has their own in innate predispositions towards particular career paths. What we should be hoping for is that के the students that come out from this high school funnel go and do a B.Ed and then an M.Ed and then an M.Phil and then a PHD and then start coming back into the system and that's exactly why like credit does go to places like दुर्बीन. Right? I don't know if you've about दुर्बीन. I haven't. But it is a program that, I forgot. I think सलमा अफ़्ताब is her name. She says अदरोह's wife. She started off a university that is giving, girls, women a B.Ed from the University of Helsinki in collaboration with Karachi University. They got a whole campus in Trinidad and Karachi. They've renovated it. They've made it cleaner, safer as well. And right after graduating, they also give employment to these women. Now it's going to take time but that's also again अगर हम NICs और catalyst labs और इतनी सारी incubation centers बना सकते हैं that also has to come but that's going to come once that high school problem is solved and then you have people coming back to serve the bottom the funnel as well or the top of the funnel whichever way but it's circular is what I'm trying to say. Right. We have to see how the dots end up connecting. अच्छा, obviously
a lot of a lot of the conversation that we've previously been having was focused on what you guys are doing and I want कि आप बिल्कुल ही उसको side पर करते हैं. And I really want to go into sort of brainstorming your thoughts on the future of work, the future of education, the future of learning. उस space में आप जाएं. आपने बड़ी अभी interesting बात बोली. आपने कहा कि, everybody becomes doesn't become the same thing. Right? People tend to be, like, people have a everybody has unique experiences and everybody has certain biological and social cues through which they can maximize their potential. Yeah. Pakistan में unfortunately more often than not beyond the education system system के अंदर education हो कैसी रही है, learning हो कैसी रही है, even जो निज़ाम है वो ऐसा है कि आपने पहले तो doctor engineer, फिर आपने कहा doctor engineer और telecom engineer, फिर आपने कहा doctor engineer, telecom engineer और BBA और दिम्यान में CA random wild card entry थी. Within these areas of study as well. मैं computer science मैंने Pakistan से किया. आपने बाहर से किया. दोनों में मैं दोनों में difference बता देता हूं. अगर यह computer science बाहर से किया ना तो आपने इसमें दुनिया ने minor एक meditation studies भी अट्ठाईस या छब्बीस या अट्ठाईस courses defined थे. चार electives थे जो electives within the major of my study area थे कि यार तुमने जो है ना अगर वह elective लेना है तो तुमने web development या AI या इसमें लेना है तो it's not like कि मैं बहुत explorative हो रहा था. Pakistan में भी globally भी है और आप उसमें different models भी देख रहे different countries के कुछ change होते आ रहे हैं. This is not just an education problem. जो मैंने पहले भी यह इस चीज़ को तस्करा किया कि अब दुनिया बड़ी बदलने लगी है और जिसमें जहां पर हम standardization के ऊपर अपनी efficiency ढूंढ रहे थे, अब हम personalization के ऊपर ढूंढ रहे चाहे वह social media है, चाहे वह content है, चाहे वह anything that is enabled by AI essentially is basically what is doing is it's tailoring your experience to your requirements, right? That's the beauty of क्योंकि पहले भी human kind नहीं कर सकती थी तो human kind standardization के ऊपर economy उसके लिए लील कर रही थी. बिल्कुल. With machine learning now you are saying कि ठीक है मेरे पास एक brain लगा हुआ है और वह brain जो है वह हर किसी को optimize करके देता है. When we talk about education, how do you think कि you know things like AI and and really based on कि आपने कहा कि हर बंदा जो है वह अपनी चीज़ बनेगा. How do you personalize education? Not today, maybe. But ten years from now, what is the vision, के के एक ऐसा निज़ाम होगा which works for the child? और इसमें मैं दो minute लगाकर मैं थोड़ा सा और context रखकर दे सकूं जो मैंने पहले भी दिया but for the sake of the audience मैं कर दे सकूं क्योंकि when I was looking at my child, I saw that because he had a personalized nanny, he was able to learn things faster. And so, मेरे दिमाग़ constantly आजकल यह चल रहा है कि यार वह जब जाता है और जाकर school में घुसेगा तो school एक average पर चलाएगा. You see this happening more often than not. Mhmm. Where the above average are given all the attention. Yeah. And the average are ostracized and told कि यार average and below average are told कि यार you guys are failures, you are You you, god alone knows what happened but, you know, you are the reject of the society. Yeah. What the, what AI can do is both for children who are smarter can give them faster, much more nuanced learning experience dedicated to their areas of interest. For children who are below average can give them dedicated learning experience where they don't feel like कि यार अच्छा now everybody is waiting so I'm not even gonna ask a question because it's gonna be dumb, they're gonna laugh at me and now everybody is like, अख, तुम्हारी वजह से हम slow जा रहे हैं. बिल्कुल. You know, there's that social change. There is also that. Absolutely absolutely. And so how do you imagine a world of education ten years from now beyond the HEC problems and the government regulations Mhmm. Where maybe, it's education for all tailored to every individual.
So there are different aspects. I mean, एक तो I think one thing gets confused is people confuse, confuse the definitions of learning and education. Education is just a design system of what we predict how kids should learn. Learning is natural. You don't teach a child to learn. He is born with that innate skill. He or she. वह खुद ही सीख रहे होते And and I agree this is a big role for AI to play here. And AI plays that role when he mentioned that. क्या I agree? क्या यार? Especially when I see my daughter interacting with Siri. It's in the music level only, but I know कि it can go into so many more places. So, when a child is on a discovery phase, AI can become more like a more personalized Google of sorts. But that doesn't that's only one aspect of learning. That's part of learning. That's the part that they're interested in, and I wish that kids are more encouraged in areas that they're interested in to learn. I get that. But there's also, at the same time, learning of skills that not everybody's interested in, but we all know that they need also. Like, we can predict some learn. Like, it's, things that maybe a division and multiplication is something that kid might never really like. But we we also know that for quick math on the go, it's it's a good tool to have. What you raise a problem about the levels of the child, of this classroom, उसका एक solution है. We don't even need tech for that. That's called mastery based learning. We apply that to almost everything else in life except for the subjects she's ready in a school. You're doing a podcast. We're all recording it. You had you the quality of the sound and the system was not the same. That was it's not now the same as it was the first day. It has improved. You've mastered the art and now you can teach it to somebody else and that's what we do with everything in life. We we do something till we master it. Riding a bicycle. You you don't put your child on a bicycle and I'm sure when your child grows up, you'll put them on a bicycle. And they'll cycle and say, नहीं यार, तीन दिन cycle क्या है? आप तीन दफा गिरी हो, आपका grade B आया है. अब छोड़ दो, let's go to now playing tennis. You will ensure that cycle चल जाएगी, वह वो चलाता रहेगा. They have mastered cycling and then you'll take them some medals. We don't grade things in life, but we grade everything in a school. The problem is there. Now, where does where does that come in? Where does tech come in there? One of the things that the reason why even this problem of lectures help because what we can truly start doing is individualized learning. It can go from being सबको एक साथ पढ़ाया, सबको एक साथ सवाल दिए, सबको एक साथ test किया. That's the biggest problem right now. Let's say there are two problems and then I agree. One is kids are not learning things they are interested in and the stuff that they're also learning, they're learning it the wrong way. Now we can solve for both. The interest part is where we have higher engaging content. Studios with larger budgets who can actually create amazing, I mean if you give Disney plus all the money in the world, they already have all the money in the world. I would trust them to build much more engaging content for my child than anybody else. बाप बनाओ बैठकर. Then how does a kid in the classroom do? That's where the schools and the teachers have to change कि it is no longer कि सब एक चीज़ दिखेंगे as a cinema में. सबके पास Netflix की तरह के devices होनी चाहिए और whatever else individual learning होनी चाहिए. And one kid might go down to the fifth grade math level while the other is still at the third grade math level and that's fine. They can be in the classroom together and we have to keep pushing everybody to the same level. If the fifth grade has done it, he should be able to do anything else with that time, learn something else. So mastery based learning is the biggest problem. We're not following that. We lay the weakest foundations for the best of the best in the class are gonna go forward and gonna be successful in their schooling lives. But जो average बच्चा होता है अगर उसकी for example if you've just barely made through multiplication division, how you ever gonna ace indices in grade seven math? और बहुत बच्चे मुझे मिलते life में. Sir, हमारे बच्चे की math ख़राब हुई थी class आठ, eighth में. क्यों ख़राब हुई थी? It was not clear he was bad rated. He or she was not giving us time to master something. So, when I see the future of education, first of all, the some of the most engaging content will be made by just very few of the world. You will only have a very few MKBHDs, I mean, I just named him as a reviewer but for example, that you got the best with the best making content. Like अली अब्दाल. Like अली अब्दाल. Absolutely absolutely. And then what's happening inside the classroom with your child, my child, anybody else's child, even with the, with any maid or any any other, you could say, aid over them or tutor, their job is to just push that child. Motivation and just keep pushing it till they master something. So I really feel the future of education is gonna mimic the history of how people learned. When they had a personal tutor, he was responsible for both introducing them to amazing ideas. It was all about entertainment. At that time, they would be introduced to Socrates, Plato, philosophy हो गई, history हो गई. A lot learned from that. And they were they were there to push the curiosity of the one individual learner they had and then motivate them also and then also help them master whatever they were. They had no exams. They had no, ok ok, BIL, let's move on to the next. So they had to sit with it, make sure they got through this and then to the next level. I think that's where the future lies. Yes, होगा क्या कि those who are motivated, self learners will learn at a much lower cost. They learn for free. And those that need some motivation, they'll have to spend some more money in more like life or personal coaches. Now, at a scale, schools would have teachers who are literally that. They will no longer be the imparters of knowledge. They will be the facilitators and the mentors in a group setting. And those who are lucky enough to have one on one life coaches, that's exactly what they'll have. Like, your child or somebody else will get हमने nanny bola, हमने aid bola, learning aid. They're all literally that. They're one on one coaches. So that's and it'll all work out based on economics. But curiosity will be developed and entertained by the best of the best production houses. In fact, you don't even need that anymore. I think Unreal Engine and all these new places, you can create that in I see in the future right now. I'm just waiting for it to happen. हर एक चीज़ इतनी democratize हो गई है ना? Right? Like, even this will end up being in that format. But so I continue. No worries. So, individualized learning plans would be what everybody is on, basically. Everybody will have their own path and they will learn correctly because you still want to go and hang out with people. Schools will become hang out spots. Like instead of malls, want to hang out in common rooms in schools. Yeah, makes sense. मुझे एक बात बताएं. Can I add in one point over here? Yeah, go ahead. I
feel like कि see the future of education though, like, we also have to be aware of the fact is that it's only as good as those that are implementing it today. Right? There has to be this sense of awareness also that comes in. IV school for example, initial days में and still to this date following the inquiry based model. Right? Similar to prerecording we were talking about the likes of Aristotle, Da Vinci, all of them, right? उस्ताद ने अपने बच्चों को बस guide करते हुए आगे बढ़ा दिया. That's how the IV schools format was and still is. Parents also, you as both of you as parents are more lucky to actually see that happening in real life. So you kind of are curious to see कि यार, where's the little one going? Which direction are they going in? And then you know at what point you introduce them to technology to kind of put the cherry on top. Teachers, exactly as बिलाल pointed out is my opinion too is that teachers need to or will their role will become that of a facilitator and but once they become that of a facilitator not just the teacher but the entire institution also needs to start understanding the marriage between their involvement and technology. It's a very, it's a double edged sword in a way but it's also a very slippery slope. You introduce it too early, could really change the game. You introduce it too late, could change the game as well. But they have to start going hand in hand. There's to be an acceptance also. That's that's what I think. I think also in the first world, I think one of the biggest hits for school will be, you know, what's the missing income.
I think we're very close to that. I don't think people need to work forty hours a week. Because we work forty hours a week is the reason why we have schools, honestly. You or your wife and you work, that's why your child might have to have somebody taken care of that. Either school, मेरी बेटी भी school जाती है because till 04:30 me and my wife can work. Yeah. What if there is no, what if we don't need to work forty hours? What if we end up working, only need to work fifteen hours? Mhmm. Might not be a reality in Pakistan very soon but in the the first world, enough to I think ten years will be there. There will not be enough work we needed. Yeah. Technology will outsource most of the work. So, a bagger बंदा दस घंटे काम करेगा, तो he'll have the time to be the school for their child. So, the parents start being that tutor for their child who just introduces them to all these and they will Content platforms and and whatnot. I think again
school, the way that I imagine it is कि schools as as as a आपने बड़ा अच्छा बोला था learning and education में फ़र्क है कि schools as a as a playground for education will stop because learning and education will become sort of synonymous with each other and they can and and students should begin to self learn through the aid of their parents or the, you know, the aid of digital parents. Learning is learning,
I'm sorry to cut you. Just one more clarification on that point. Education is a set of, you know, like, rules you make to introduce learning.
But learning is very automatic. Yeah. Education has to become fluid. It's not. It's very stuck to the what we now call the factory model. Yeah. And I think, again, मैं आजकल ना I I try to look at everything in in in a a TikTok model. Right? So if TikTok can take an x amount of your time through content, it can do the same for any industry in my opinion. Any digital enabled industry can utilize the TikTok model accept कि वही वाली बात है and the reason why I say that is not because for most people they'll be like अच्छा content integrate करते हैं चीज़ में. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is कि TikTok मैंने जो लोग irregularly podcast होते हैं what it's done done is it's truly democratized. जो आपने बोलो ना word use किया. By a large even content platforms और a lot of other industries के अंदर जब products आएं हैं हमारी west से, तो it has not democratized access to most of our people which includes Wikipedia. Yeah. Yes. Things, tools like Wikipedia, like Khan Academy, like a lot of these other tools Mhmm. Have not been able to reach down to the masses because of a, because the design language that was used, जो कि इस thought से designed थी कि western educated, western style educated audience किस तरह से उसको use बिल्कुल.
I think one more thing was that also was the fact that it's a video first.
बाकी सब reading first हैं. Actually, have. हां, but अगर मैं इसको आपको थोड़ा flip करता हूं. Instagram बहुत Instagram के ऊपर when you enter Instagram you have to sign up. You cannot do anything before signing up. When you go on TikTok the minute you open the app content is there. Then it asks you ten minutes later कि यार by the way do you want to sign up? It has locked certain features for you to sign up. Now Instagram के ऊपर when you sign up, it is telling you username डालो. डालो, नहीं डालोगे तो मैं कुछ नहीं पढ़ सकता. TikTok के ऊपर आप जाए और जाकर आज comment section खोलें. आधे users लिखा है user user random names है 952-2222. क्यों? क्योंकि वह auto generator दे रहा है आपको username का. वह हर चीज़ का auto generator दे रहा है for you to get in as possible and as over time it is teaching you how to utilize that product. It is a content platform sure But how do you onboard consumers in a way that they will be your customer not today but six months from now. And a lot of people are not trying to do that. They are saying I want to try look for a market that is a customer today and if the ad person is not a customer I want to bitch about the fact कि यार क्या audience है कि उनको मेरी चीज़ नहीं आती यार the genius will be कि how do you build that demand? The Chinese have mastered the ability for demand creation. They have done Chinese आप मुझे बताएं आप Pakistan में बड़े हुए, आप Pakistan में बड़े हुए. हमने कभी सोचा था कि video games के ऊपर Pakistan ही पैसा लगाएगा. कभी कोई American कर सका था, कोई Ubisoft of the world कर सका था, नहीं Chinese कर गया. That true. Right? That is true. There is a learning there. There is a psychological learning there. If you want to do something really truly disruptive in this country and you really want to radically redesign because मेरे लिए ना मेरा the reason why I feel very strongly about it I know आप लोग कहते होंगे यार यह पागल का बच्चा इसको पता है education को मेरे में कम view आता है. यह बारहा education के लोगों को बुलाता और उनसे जाकर बैठकर बात करने की कोशिश करता क्या इसका problem है? मेरा problem यह है कि podcasting की पीछे पूरी philosophy जो थी ना मेरी वह यह थी कि यार how do you enable individuals to be able to do better in one way or the other. Theoretically मैं यही बोल हूं. By the way you are a school. A podcast is a school. Exactly, right. You decide what people learn from there. So, what I'm trying to figure out is कि how do you take this model and put it in a lot of other areas? So, मैं एक certain audience को, university के audience को, free of cost case studies देता हूं. MBA की class की तरह हर दिन की एक case studies देता हूं कि यार आपने यह किस तरह किया और आपने यह किस और आपने यह किस तरह किया. Yeah. But if if this can generate a certain x amount of audience, first of all, how do you take that audience of 15,000 or 20,000 viewers an episode and take it down to 500,000 because the real impact is right there. Yeah. But also you take that model and start plugging it in every other which way. जिसमें आप कहते हो कि यार ठीक है मैं high school को भी यह करता हूं, मैं skills को भी करता हूं. And most importantly अगर मैं आपसे एक सवाल पूछूं इसके अंदर. I don't know मैं अपनी rant के अंदर सवाल पर start हुआ था या नहीं हुआ था? It's ok. I apologize आप लोग कह ही लीजिएगा. पर सवाल इसे मेरा यह आया. कि आप लोग graduate के university से आप लोगों ने आपने बड़ा interesting बोला कि यार हमें ना जो लोग ढूंढने जो अगला जो है वह आपके साथ जब internal नहीं काम करने आया था ना तो उसको इतनी concept था कि यार मैं इस बंदे के साथ learn करके कराया We understand that completely.
And so, by the way that if you remember there was a time there was a phrase called 'यह he's an educated man. That was what it meant. Civilized and has good citizenship. Not कि degree क्या थी? Degree क्या थी? Sadly, what has happened is the biggest problem and I wanted to add this somewhere. I'm sorry. Don't know. You were also finishing your thought. No no. Go for it. Is that कि I think one of the biggest changes will have is when biggest companies in Pakistan say we do not need university degrees. Because I think the change is gonna come from there. We just wait. Because that's what's driving everybody to forget all the ethics to get that grade because नौकरी मिलेगी उससे. अगर कल angry बोलता है कि we will no longer need any degree as long as you can prove either these characteristics.
If they could figure, by the way, problem is testing also. कभी नहीं है. मेरे सवाल भी आप खुद आ गए. मैं आपसे पूछना यह चाह रहा था. मैं आपसे कहता हूं यार आप एक expert हैं इस area के अंदर. मैं आपसे कहता हूं forget about the A levels four that you are doing great. ज़बरदस्त. मैं आपसे पूछता हूं कि यार मुझे एक product design करनी है. Jobless को उठाऊं और मैं jobs पे डाल दूँ और दरमियान में मैं सिर्फ उनको hard skill ना दूँ, मैं उसको दरमियान में एक well rounded citizen बनाकर निकालूँ. How would you design that product? So the product what you are asking about is something that is not, it can't start, you cannot make that change at the 19, 20 year old boy. Has to I come a little telling you कि sir अभी जो आपके पास है ना 19, 20 year old वही आ रहा है. ठीक है. अब आपके और इसके मैं इसमें यह add करता हूं कि I was researching on universities globally Foundation years की वजह से ना mostly आप एक point पर लाकर खड़ा कर देते हैं. तो मैं यह आपको already मैं आपके हाथ बांध रहा और कह रहा कि अठारह उन्नीस के बाद के बच्चा जो आ रहा है वह आ रहा है. So I think I I think I'll retract my answer because what I was just thinking while you were changing the batteries
was that I am and असरत has been witness to the last five years of my life. I tend to stick with very few people in my life. I minimize my life's muscle by just having three, four people around me. I don't have much social life. I just do one thing, family, work, that's it. I have changed in the last three years, which means I've learned stuff. So that means कि if I my age of 43, I'm still lifelong. I truly believe I'm a lifelong learner. And it's not just I'm learning skills, it's attitudes I'm also learning. It's also I'm learning citizenship. So I will retract कि 18 year old cannot be taught that. Everybody can be taught that. What what is needed is what we call an उर्दू सौबत. Collectives of people work. So when you said, you also mentioned university. What hit me there was my most my most amazing learning years was not a levels, was those four years in college. That four years that I got to spend time with other people, I grew. So, if you're saying कि I'll give you 18 year olds, all you need to do is the same curriculum that we actually have worked on. So, before coming on this, before doing this Alt Academy work that we've been only doing over the last one year, I have divided my time between doing two things, creating a whole ecosystem of learning, not just a school. The whole master plan for that with a few smart people. At the same time working with just solving the immediate problem. So Alt Academy is not solving the long term problem. It's solving the immediate problem of grades आ जाएंगे बच्चे के. But what you're asking for is a long term solution. The long term solution is a a curriculum which is the foundations are based in citizenship. Honesty to self and society is at the core of it. And you can teach that to all, you can teach that. People are cynical but I will tell you this much. I have been teaching 15, 16 year olds for the last twenty years. They'll come and go but they're still fifteen, sixteen. And and we've seen all kinds of students. They're really mischiefs also. But in the end, they are they truly believe at the end. If you can peel at it, pure होते हैं. They have still have what do you call that they have passion they have have an innocence about them. आप खुर्ज के निकाल सकते हो तो basically it's like a rehab university you'd want to create. You want to create a place where they can spend? I thought you were going with the four years. That probably is the time they need to really bed gel together. Maybe it is four years, maybe it's three years. But it has to be a good amount of time spent with people. It's like a boarding school, but not really. You don't board people there. But they have to come together and they can actually create that. You can create curriculums based. जो आप foundation की बात हो रहे थे ना, that foundation is not to be, not about introduction to English or marketing or creative thinking or writing. No. It'll be based on these principles that a lot of smart people have already figured out for the longest time. या तो वह Tony Wagner from Harvard बोलेगा, उसको बोलेगा seven survival skills और six survival skills जिसमें communication, adaptability, collaboration, you know, agility. जिसमें आपको बाकी बोलेंगे six C's, जिसमें creativity, critical thinking, collaboration, communication, all of them. Then citizenship. These are all everybody says the same thing in different terms. They have to be taught. They had to be taught in grades two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. नहीं हुआ ना? अभी भी हो सकता है. You can spend the first two years of that four years of eighteen year olds life in that foundation. The foundation of how to be a human being and this is not, is by the way happening. This is, this is a place that's been an inspiration of mine. It's called African Leadership Academy. It's a private university, school and college. There are multiple things. You should look into this. Adding into this,
their mandate is to essentially, you'd re, is is to make ethical leaders of tomorrow. And the way they do that is by actually bringing in students in the first year, right, and putting them through that entire leadership boot camp, their own boot camp as well. And in the second year, do all of a levels. They're an a level school. They've redesigned the way they're taking it forward. And they do this leadership by creating a course which is very based in African. They'll read,
The culture and heritage of that place. So, for example, अभी इकबाल day हुआ है. We had a holiday. How many people could read इकबाल? How many people could understand इकबाल? So the idea is it has to start from that. So the full year education में skills is one part. Hard skills, let's say 10% might need medicine and engineering. There's a 90% kids. You've done computer science. I've done computer science. I know three other educators who also learn computer science. Computer science seem to be the very good general degree to have to be able to think. It's critical thinking really nothing more. Or BBA जो watch half the कराची does already. So if you can just do two years of BBA computer science at the last two years and the first two years literally this is how I design the whole curriculum based on cultural heritage, citizenship, ethics, understanding the self society, where your your place in this place is. Before quiz and in no exams, there is no exams. And then you move on to the skill level. The skills are problematic because हम क्या करें हमें भी कह रहे skill सीख जाओ. वह जो skill अगले छह साल में ख़त्म होगा, उसकी कोई ज़रूरत नहीं होगी. But what makes you the human being inside, that that is needed. जो तरवीयत partner है तालीम तरवीयत में, if I was given this clean hand कि यार, you have this to do. This is go ahead and do it. Mhmm. Why you might say am I doing it today? Mhmm. Because I can't sell it today. And I'm and I'm and I'm an entrepreneur. I know I gotta figure out a way and that is why. Make it sustainable as well. And I'm, that's, that's my goal. I quit all those schools. I quit SNCS, Cedar, all this. That's my project now. I will only. Alt Academy is just a means to the end. KR बच्चे का exam और grade दिला दिया. So what? I I want these grades and exams to be over with. I really don't want a world when my child is now nine, in another eight years, seven years, she's singing for A levels again. And she is studying from my videos. I don't want that word. It has to change for them before that. So I am hoping that it's changed but we will accelerate that change. And so for me an ideal school, college, university, they all look the same. It's the same age. I mean, आप age पर हादों कम कर दो. आपकी core यार, let's like the health literacy, I mean, mental health, physical health literacy, financial, all of these things are taught. Attitudes are taught. How to approach work? How to do things which are tough? Because we say our kids should be entertained at school. Yes, I understand that. I want that light. But I also want them to feel कि यार, we've overcome something hard and we've gotten here. We don't even teach that anymore. Exams are not the only hard thing in the world to pass. There are things doing twenty hours of community service work a week, like a badge of honour. करो जाके बाहर. कचरा उठाओ, America में तो बहुत होता है. यहां कहीं होता नहीं है. So what does that teach you? It's to teach you things that you don't want to do. So be it a school at eighth grade, be it a school at A levels, be it a university. This is all we all need as human beings. And people say this about Pakistan कि यार हमारे बच्चे schools में बाहर हैं. मैं कहता हूं मानता हूं कराशी में सिद्ध में तो बहुत ज़्यादा ही बच्चे बाहर हैं. But जो schoolओं में हो रहा है, I am like अच्छा ही बाहर है. वहां क्या सीख रहा है? Honestly speaking, more schools में कुछ नहीं सीख रहा. सिर्फ I, things जिसके exam होते हैं, जिसका कोई basis ही नहीं है life में. And and the world is making us more and more visible every year. And मैंने I, because I have been in this interview for twenty years. I have seen how different the world view was twenty years ago in the same industry. And I see the, how the outside world is looking for this to change now. And I'm hoping is there has to be an inflection point. The only problem is there's one of the few industries where just like financial, where there's a government का heavy iron आता है. Mhmm. जब तक governments कुछ नहीं करेंगी, you know, we cannot, I mean, they should just decentralize everything and just remove all the, you know, the restrictions.
Make it open. We need democracy here. We're not getting democracy here. Makes sense. Guys, I'm gonna wrap this up two hour long. Again, another apology is warranted because मैंने promise किया था अपने audience को कि मैं एक घंटे बेर मुकाना शुरू कर दूंगा और कृपया चार में से तीन episodes दो घंटे भी गई हैं. But again, conversations जब अच्छी होती हैं तो, I can't resist. मैं एक सवाल पूछूंगा. Generally, I ask, all of my guests if you would be kind enough to answer that. Sure. You guys both have well traveled across the globe. You are doing this in Pakistan. कोई वजह होगी, कोई foresight होगी जिसकी basis के ऊपर आप यह define कर रहे होंगे या यह जद्दोजहद भी कर रहे होंगे? Because है तो जद्दोजहद So if I were to ask you, you know, knowing what you know now, seeing what you've seen throughout your life, how do you see Pakistan twenty eight years from now and 2050? What would your answer be?
How do I see Pakistan? Actually, I've never, funny thing is I I, I said mention you asked a question and I actually didn't know what the question was going to be. I should have. But I generally say this. I say this to everybody. Somebody says, hey, what's your five year plan? Ask the people ask me for your business. What's your five year plan? Eight year plan? To honest answer this, I have never looked that world world that far down because I have stopped because there's no prediction now. Especially now, three years, four years, yes. Two, three years, yes. But ten, twenty years, like, so if you ask me what Pakistan should look like versus what it looks like, I I because if I always predict on what Pakistan could look like twenty years from now, and if I had done that twenty years ago, I would be a very cynical man by now. Mhmm. And I'm always an optimist. So I I'm
saying should because should a lot of people give me the answer in should. And and and the fact is we should is more it's more dreamy. It's not grounded in reality. And it's very fascinating because I've actually, I I I I look at a lot of content in the in the developed world where they actually talk about and and this part of me asking for a Pakistan of 2050 really developed because growing up and recently as well, I would look at dreamers across the world, giving you a vision of the future. Okay. हमारी जो dreamers हैं ना वह vision क्या है? वह अपनी likes and dislikes पर based है, right? So, वह कहते हैं कि I would like for parks in my neighborhood. ठीक है? If you are sitting in Karachi, maybe that's not a realistic or if you are sitting in Dubai for example and that's not a realistic वह. But it's a like, sure you can have it. Yeah. Yeah. जब आप American America में देख रहे और ख़ासकर thought leaders को देख रहे ना, तो हर बंदा किसी basis के ऊपर कहीं ना कहीं कोई projection दे रहा होता है जिस पर वह यह कहता है कि यार knowing देखिए यह simple सी बात है. Let's assume I speak to a a teacher who's just out of lumps, has started teaching in the last six months. Mhmm. वह जब मुझे बताएगा ना कि यार आज से तीस साल बाद potentially education कहां खड़ी होगी? उसके answer में और आपके answer में जिन्होंने बीस साल education में गुज़ारे ना फ़र्क़ होगा. आज आप मुझसे पूछेंगे कि content industry कहां खड़ी होगी और एक नए बच्चे से पूछेंगे, नया बच्चा जो भी बताएगा ना मैं आपको बता रहा हूं based on my ten years of experience and the evolution that I have experienced. More often than not I find it very very surprising that most people in Pakistan are I'm not saying कि आप आप मुझसे पूछेंगे आपका five year plan क्या मुझे नहीं पता. But आप मुझसे पूछेंगे कि industry किस तरफ़ जा रही है, यह किस तरफ़ जा रही है? वह वह इस वजह से I I I try to at least get people to think about it is because a lot of times rather than throwing stuff in the dark, आपको कोई context अगर होना तो you can start begin to backtrack from that. Yeah. कि you know, I think based on the education system like for example मैं छोटी सी में साल देता हूं. Where do I see Pakistan in 2050? अगर मैं education की particularly बात करूं. The boundaries are education really right? Whatever your thought leadership is beyond
education भी हो सकता है जाहिर जहा जहा पर आपने experience किया हुआ है जहा पर आप एक sense make कर सकते हैं कि where would you like your daughter to be? See ना sir as far as if I had to predict I think we only, we as a nation, as a nation of lawmakers respond to external threats better than internal. We don't take hard decisions. We've never taken, unless we get a dictator who's there for ten years, we've never really had seen anybody take a hard decision. And we don't I'm not a fan of dictatorships, but that's the only evidence I see of hard decisions being taken. So but sometimes the hard decisions come from places like IMF or external bodies. So there will be a time where the hard decision will be taken given that what's happening in the world. I what I predict is it'll be, if you've heard of globalization when I was growing up, even the last five, ten years ago, but I don't hear about it anymore because it seems like it's already here. I think it'll just be boundary less. More and more, it will be boundary less. I think and and then because you already become, our generation has become that in their mind. Mhmm. Most of the boundaries exist only for passport. Mhmm. And I think there is less and less of the next generation to feel even patriotic about. Unless our cricket team keeps winning, there's not much less grounding. I I I tell people this, that is the only time that I see that different cultures in Pakistan actually truly be पाकिस्तानी is when we win a cricket match or we are in a cricket match, sadly. So either we really go strong in what our identity is and, you know, you know, maybe some politician had that. इमरान खान had that. It it he had that charisma and got many together, but he still has not everybody together. Right? And there's also divisiveness now happening and we see divisions. And that's the problem with this country. There's always divisions. So we've, either we just then accept. There are always divisions and we create and we just open everything up. And that can also happen by an external entity. And because things are so rapidly changing, could actually happen. Look at Ukraine. Who would have thought two years ago this is where we were sitting? So, we do not know. I'm not predicting that, but that is one way we can go. The other was that we actually had somebody take really hard decisions. Mhmm. And it is and only then can we actually have changed. So, either Pakistan changes because the world is changing or we take hard decisions because we haven't even taken a hard decision on crypto. Tell me something. The world is not accepting cryptocurrency. We are not, we are not even talking about it. And I have heard this from many of my friends who I quote either the legal system or the financial system कि in Pakistan पहले law बनता है कि कोई चीज़ नहीं करने का. In America is the opposite. If there's no law, you can do it. In Pakistan, you have to have a law to do it unless you cannot do it. So, there has to that change come in. And and I'm not as I've actually lived a very, very, like असर said earlier on, I've lived my life in my lane because I've chosen a lane so that because I had only had focus in this area. So there are lot of external factors that have come to Pakistan and passed. We've seen, in the last twenty years, was hopeful for Musharraf, not. Imman Khan, not. Bilal Abul Bhutto, not. Beinazi, yes, no, not. A lot of things have happened. And I do not, that part of the life is not very predictable now. I've seen that. Iran has shown us we can't predict even politics, and that's great. A lot of things are coming out. But if you want change in Pakistan to take place, somebody's gonna take the hard decisions. Either is the Chinese or the गोरा giving us the money and saying open up your education system completely or the, you know, company is saying we do not need a degree, which is why I kept going back to that. There has to be somebody taking a hard decision and then only things will change. Otherwise, it's the rat race that we are fooling everybody else in because there's nothing there's no other goalpost. Mhmm. A parent has no other goalpost but grades for his kid. Somebody either has to demolish the current goalpost and make new ones and that's when things change. Makes sense.
What do you think? Very good answer, बिलाल भाई. So, I actually wasn't prepared for this because I didn't think I'd be in it but अच्छा, थोड़ा सा मैं अगर आपको बता दूं असर के साथ मैंने hand push किया था. It was a two people podcast where I just thought it'd be the right discussion to have No no no, much appreciated यार. I I I thought given I would grow up one day, I would also be on मज़मिल भाई's podcast. But, you see, yeah, I think if if I'm talking about my vision for 2050, if that that's the question, my vision for 2050. I feel like it has to do and and yeah, अब वह what you said earlier कि जो गोरा कहता है कि भाई पूरे मुल्क का vision, हम लोग कहते हैं कि हमारा vision, my thoughts, my views, my this, my that. And unfortunately, I'm going to stick in that in that lane because I feel like कि being in this country from the age of 10, right, having spent seventeen years over here, I've always been and I've I've been a very self aware kid, still self aware. I try to be in tune with I have a very high EQ and a very low IQ. And I feel like, hey, what I've noticed some things change in this country over these seventeen years is that it's harder and harder for us to coexist, not just as a collective, then also in each individual strata. And I've just been lucky to be exposed to and be working with people that are twice my age. Right? I gravitate towards people that are older. Bilal mentioned that I'm just an old soul. Maybe it's because I keep hanging out with him. I don't know. But, it's also because and I I feel like one of the biggest lessons that I've learned, is unlearn and relearn. And my vision for 2050 is that this generation, my generation, your generation, sorry बुलाल भाई, we will have unlearned and relearned so many times. We would have learned from our leaders and from our seniors' mistakes and perspectives is that we will figure out a way to make sure exactly number one we can all coexist but we can also humbly continue to excel. And humility I feel like is a very big factor which I feel like is now starting to fall into place. शोधेबाज़ी जो थी यह VIP culture सब ने डाल दिया. TikTok भी VIP culture के के खिलाफ चीज़ें आती है, right? And you mentioned TikTok as well, equalizer of content, Right? Game changer. We know more about the floods because of TikTok compared to our own news. Right? We start seeing कि यार how literally because of the the the privileges we have of technology, of connectivity, of access, everything is now becoming more and more leveled. Mhmm. But then we will also end up putting boundaries to our leveling too. Right. I feel there'll be a start and there'll be an end. Not to say because we're limiting ourselves, but we will know, r, now we have to focus on depth within that. Right. And that's what I feel. Like, is, we're gonna become a nation which has a lot more depth, which has a lot more humility but then also has a lot more tolerance and empathy towards one another and that also we're going to realize. It's मैं economic answer अगर देता तो वह भी यही होता है कि भाई boom and bust cycle चल रहा होता है ना. आप लोगों ने देख लिया कि मुशहरिफ के time पर economy क्या थी, ज़रदारी के time पर क्या थी. We all see that we have the stats, have the charts for that. But there's a boom and bust cycle and maybe I'm just a reluctant optimist right now, right? I just feel like कि if this is the low, I really hope this is the worst of it, then there's there's only up, right? I have lived my life reminding myself कि हर रूज का सवाल होता है लेकिन हर सवाल का भी रूज होता है. Makes sense. Yeah. But you said that ना कि, you know, it only it can only go off from here.
Sad part is I have also thought that multiple times in my life in Pakistan. You could not told me that lesson before we started doing this. But I mean, उमेश पर दुनिया कायम है. I do want to add one thing to watch you mention about TikTok and what I heard मिफ्ता इस्माल में speak a few days ago I think at IB or something. कि यार हमारे side leaders ना एक दो school से आ रहे हैं. And when you mention how democratizing TikTok has become, I think we are one or two or three moral or thought leaders away from rising as a nation. I think not political leaders, thought leaders. Thought leaders, yeah. Moral leaders. And I really think if somebody can crack that part on TikTok, because right now we're we're not there yet. But I think when you you're in the industry of content creation, when some honest with god thought leaders who know how to mould generations get that platform. And I'm not, at the same time, I'll give an example of a person I sometimes follow online, Jordan Peterson. He's become that in his in his in his you know, you might not like him, but he's become a thought leader and enough people listen to him. And I'm not saying if we need him, but we need we need some people in our society. And I think I look more into TikTok because that's what I learned from this podcast that I need to give that more attention. But I think that's where we'll find them. Makes sense. But feel like sorry sorry sorry sorry. But I feel like also
with that and to add on to that as well is that कि whoever or however many of those thought leaders come about, it's also going to come abroad. Like unfortunately those thought leaders if you're one of them listening and if it's you also, you're going to have to accept the reality कि भाई हर कोई आपके काम पर पानी पेकने वाला है. Right? You're going to have to eat the shit. Right? You're going to have to hear all the hate and everything as well that comes with it. There is no easy way out. Jordan Peterson is a perfect example because even though he has hate comments in all of his videos, he's He on
going. Give a shit. Right?
And that's another thing. And by the way, इमरान खान does that too. He's not enough hate also but he keeps on going. Yeah. So we need that kind of attitude for other areas of our Just leadership
be sure about it. Yeah. Sorry guys. Many endorse कर रहे है इमरान खान को फिर आप game में जी युद्धिया बोलते हैं. But nonetheless guys, thank you so much for coming in. This was incredibly, incredibly insightful. For Thank you. Me as was fun. And for us also, by the way. And I hope that the audience, you know, has some learnings there as well. Thank you for taking the time out and I wish you the very best. I was very, aggressive in in trying to, unbox you guys. But but वह सिर्फ़ ऐसे ऐसे था, वह मैं cabinet पर बंद हो जाता हूं, बताता क्यों. But what you guys are doing is is definitely remarkable and, I I'm super excited. मैं आपको एक चीज़ honesty बोल देता हूं. Please. चारों लोग आए हैं. Hi, sincere apologies to them. If there's one EdTech startup that I have truly gotten excited about it shows. Thank you. That I genuinely think. And it's not just from what we've gathered here. Again, when we talk about Edkasa, we talk about Nearpier, two of the ones, Joké, again, got me really excited. They were exciting because the founders had a had a great vision. When it comes to you guys, particularly on and off camera, I've noticed a few things where I think if अगर मैं successful measure करूं, तो I would say there's a very high confidence that I'm gonna see you be a hopefully a billion dollar company. That means a lot. And so, you know, I'm very excited to see where you guys go. Recommendation भी share करते हैं you can join there as well. Audio platforms वाले subscribe करोड़ में आऐंगे. Animal episodes से आपको notification मिल जाएगी. यहां पर कहीं पर easy पैसा jazz cast सादा प्यार होगा. If you like to support the channel, we accept anything from 1 rupee to as much as you'd like. It's a thought that counts. इसी के साथ साथ तक आप agree or disagree? Let us know in the comment section below. What are your thoughts on education? What are your thoughts on the future of education? The future of learning? The future of jobs? Would love to hear your thoughts as well. Season four में we're doing something very, very exciting. If you'd like to support us and you're working in a brand or an agency, we are starting partnered segments. So if, you know, if this is something that interests you, हमारा email address कहीं पर appear हो रहा है channel पर. Can check that out and reach out to us. I would love to have that conversation. But anyways, this was Sayama Zamaelas and Zadi. You are watching ThoughtBear and Things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.
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