Thought Behind Things · Dec 5, 2022
Nabeel Qadeer on being lost after Idea Karoron Ka
Nabeel Qadeer — founder of Pakistan's first business reality show, architect of Plan9, and now a man in deliberate retreat — sits down with Muzamil to talk about family fracture, a master's degree chosen for one page of a course brochure, what Mark Cuban told him about Shark Tank, and why he still doesn't know what to do next.
with Nabeel Qadeer
11 min read
A golden spoon, a partition family, and a school chosen for fashion
The episode opens with Muzamil introducing Nabeel Qadeer as someone he had been trying to get on the show for nearly a year — a guest he had been following for over a decade. The conversation begins, as Muzamil’s conversations often do, at the very beginning: where were you born, and what was early life like?
Nabeel traces his family back across the border — Amritsar and Jalandhar, before partition brought them to Lahore. He went to Alma for his O levels (the school’s second-ever batch, he notes) and then to Lacas for A levels, chosen, by his own admission, for no deeper reason than that it was fashionable. As a student, he was curious and risk-taking but not particularly grade-driven. “A good student in my opinion would be someone who is curious, who is constantly curious,” he says. “I was constantly curious. I was constantly risk taking.” His teachers, he adds with a laugh, did not always share that assessment.
From Lacas he went to FAST Lahore for a BSc in computer science, graduating in 2001 — right in the middle of the dot-com boom and the Y2K drama. FAST, he recalls, was a brutal filter: they admitted around 130 students from a pool where only about one percent made it through. His own name appeared second-to-last on the acceptance list. What FAST gave him, he argues, was not intelligence but a tolerance for hard targets, impossible timelines, and all-nighters. “Fast ने मुश्किل targets کو، مشکل timelines کو، nighters کو، mainstream کر دیا ہمارے لیے” — FAST made difficult targets, difficult timelines, and all-nighters a normal part of life.
The halwai who taught him customer empathy
After FAST, Nabeel tried job interviews and quickly understood they were not for him. He ended up doing customized ERP implementations for local businesses — a path that led him, memorably, to Nirala Sweets. His job was to automate the dispatch of mithai from factory to retail stores. The catch: the people he had to train were halwais who could not read the words “shift” or “enter” on a keyboard.
He describes sitting at two-thirty in the morning, trying to communicate a technical process to workers who operated in an entirely different linguistic and conceptual world. The experience, he says, was formative in a way no classroom could have been. “That exploration of my own ability to speak to someone who had a completely different linguistic system than I did” — it forced him to strip his knowledge down to its simplest possible form, to become friends with the workers, to understand their household problems. He draws a direct line from that night shift at Nirala to his later work with startups: “Every startup جو ہم اس سے بات کر لیں گے بعد میں جو غلطی کرتا ہے وہ یہ کرتا ہے کہ وہ اپنے perspective سے چیزوں کو بنا کر market میں لے جاتا ہے” — every startup makes the mistake of building from its own perspective rather than understanding the customer’s actual pain.
A family fracture, a grandmother’s death, and one page of a brochure
Later in the discussion, Nabeel opens up about something he says he has not spoken about publicly before. Around 2008 and 2009, his parents went through a serious falling out. As the eldest son in a large, old Lahore house built by his grandfather in 1966, the weight of that shift fell on him. He had grown up with every comfort provided. Suddenly, he was calculating how to divide limited money between his own education, his brothers’ futures, and his mother’s needs — who had also begun to fall ill.
His grandfather had died in 2003, a loss he describes as losing a part of himself. His grandmother passed in 2011. The accumulated grief, the family instability, and a growing sense that he needed to understand himself pushed him toward a master’s degree abroad. But the choice of university was unusual. He did not pick the highest-ranked institution. He picked the University of Strathclyde in Glasgow because of one page — the program director’s foreword, written by a man named Peter McKennis. “He wrote about self reflection. He wrote about how I’m not gonna teach you basic marketing, accounting, and blah blah blah here. So if you’re coming for your master’s program, it’s gonna be a master’s in yourself.” Nabeel describes that as “the sexiest thing I had heard.”
The pedagogy was intensely practical — at one point, students were dropped into the sea for three days and told to save each other as part of a management exercise. It was in Scotland, in those mountains and islands, that Nabeel says he found himself. “Nabeel Qadeer became Nabeel Qadeer in his mind also after he realized who he is.” He came back to Pakistan with no concrete plan, only a conviction that he needed to do something that served others, not just himself. His mother was battling oral cancer. He had no option but to return.
Plan9, PITB, and the limits of government
A phone call from a government number changed everything. Two friends told him that Doctor Umar Saif, chairman of PITB, was looking for someone dynamic to set up Pakistan’s first tech incubator. Nabeel met Umar, a synergy formed, and the two of them essentially figured out how to run an incubator as they went. Plan9 was born.
Nabeel spent five and a half years at PITB, running eleven batches through Plan9, designing the first government-backed skill development program for young people, and attempting — ultimately unsuccessfully — to establish a public-private venture fund modeled on Israel’s Yozma program. He and Umar spent months visiting the Planning and Development department and the Finance department, trying to translate the concept into language the government could process. “Government پر کہتی ہے یار یہ نہ بتاؤ کیا نیا کرنا ہے؟ یہ بتاؤ یہ کس جیسا ہے؟” — the government doesn’t want to know what’s new; it wants to know what existing thing it resembles.
Muzamil presses him on where government should and should not operate in the tech space. Nabeel’s answer is direct: governments are structurally incapable of efficient execution. “Governments are like these huge elephants — بڑی چھوٹی چھوٹی آنکھیں ہوتی ہیں” — big bodies, small eyes. They follow a rule book. The real problem, he argues, is misaligned KPIs. In the private sector the goal is profit. In government the goal is appeasement of the current political machinery. “کل تک بنا کر دو پرسوں CM نے فیتہ کاٹنا ہے” — build it by tomorrow because the Chief Minister is cutting the ribbon the day after. Everything else — proper requirements, testing, sustainability — becomes secondary to the ribbon-cutting moment.
He is careful to say that well-meaning people exist on both sides, and that the government’s role as a first mover — creating the concept of incubators, making entrepreneurship a public conversation — was genuinely valuable. But scale and efficiency, he insists, must be handed to the private sector.
What Mark Cuban said in Austin
By 2016, Nabeel had begun working on what would become Idea Karoron Ka, Pakistan’s first business reality show. The origin story is a sequence of rejections. He pitched to a major channel in Karachi; the executive had never heard of Shark Tank and suggested Nabeel host a wedding show instead. He shot a pilot with third-class cameras at his own expense and sent a CD to Dawn News; the response was that it was “below par.” Two other channels either kept him waiting for two and a half hours without offering tea — a serious slight in Lahore — or strung him along indefinitely.
The break came at a university event where Nabeel was standing in for Doctor Umar Saif. He met Chaudhry Abdur Rehman, who had a small, early-stage channel called Neo. Rehman had already been thinking about a similar show. He gave the show its name: Idea Karoron Ka. Four seasons followed.
On the question of whether the investments shown on the show were real, Nabeel is candid. He met Mark Cuban at South by Southwest in Austin and asked him directly. “He said to me himself that ہمارے جو investments ہوتی ہیں mostly پہلے سے pre planned ہوتی ہیں۔ ہم enact کرتے ہیں، ہم acting کرتے ہیں۔ We are actors.” Nabeel says that roughly 37 to 42 percent of the commitments made on Idea Karoron Ka actually converted after the show. Some investors, he admits, were misusing the platform. He takes responsibility for those choices. But he is proud of giving founders television and internet exposure at a time when that was genuinely scarce.
Lost between the show and the masses
By the time Muzamil asks why Nabeel has not launched a new season — particularly now that Shark Tank India has validated the format for mass audiences across the subcontinent — the conversation reaches its most honest stretch.
Nabeel says he has traveled to 87 cities across Pakistan. He has held meetups in places like Layyah, Swabi, and Bhakkar. He runs a training center network called Direction. And the more time he spends with ordinary people in those cities, the more uncomfortable he feels about producing a show that celebrates million-dollar raises and venture capital deals. “آپ actually masses کو ایک غلط dream کی طرف لگا رہے ہوں گے۔ جو achieve نہیں کر سکتے” — you would be pointing the masses toward a dream they structurally cannot achieve. The people raising those funds, he observes, are a privileged few. The common person standing outside a startup event, hearing only English, feeling looked over by mentors who judge them by their clothes — that person is not being served by another glossy investment show.
“مجھے نہیں پتہ مَیں کس کے لیے اگلا show بناؤں” — I don’t know who I’m making the next show for. He is, by his own description, lost in that space of introspection. He wants to build a skilled university by 2025, one designed for the masses rather than the privileged. The training centers are his data-gathering exercise toward that goal. He has stopped attending events. He has been grieving — his mother passed away a few months before this recording. He is in his shell, thinking.
The book, the three things, and faith
Muzamil asks about the book — This Book Is About You: Zero to One — and Nabeel explains its structure. The chapters are numbered like decimal points: 0.0, 0.1, 0.2, 0.3, moving through empathy, goal-setting, personal branding, conflict management, and team-building. Zero is the moment you are born. One is the moment you find your identity, your brand.
The book’s final chapter is on faith. Nabeel says his deepening engagement with religion has shaped his thinking about what drives human behavior. He distills it to three things: the quality of your thoughts, the quality of your words, and the quality of your actions. All three, he argues, are downstream of intention — niyyat. “جو آپ کہیں گے ناں وہ آپکی نیت کی عکاسی کر رہا ہوگا” — what you say reflects your intention, what you think reflects your intention, what you do reflects your intention. If you want to understand a person, check those three things.
He has been teaching at universities for ten years, starting at FAST. He says that if he grows old with anything, it will be teaching — not academia as an institution, which he has reservations about, but the act of teaching itself.
Pakistan in 2050
By the end of the conversation, Muzamil asks his standard closing question: what does Pakistan look like in 2050? Nabeel is measured but genuinely optimistic. He does not predict an economic superpower. He does not predict collapse. He sees a young nation — demographically one of the youngest in the world — that has not yet learned to build its own narrative rather than borrowing one from elsewhere. “جس دن ہم لوگوں نے decide کر لیا ناں کہ ہم حقیقی آزادی چاہتے ہیں” — the day we decide we want genuine independence of thought and narrative, things will shift. By 2050, he believes Pakistan will be a recognized, growing regional player. Not among the top performers, not among the worst. Growing, and growing fast — provided young people take ownership.
Muzamil closes by noting what made the conversation unusual: Nabeel came in and spoke with a rawness that very few people at his level manage in Pakistan. That, Muzamil suggests, is itself a marker of genuine leadership — the confidence to be seen clearly, without the armor of curated success.
Full transcript
सारा खपतिना उज़ात welcome back to another episode of ThoughtBandThings आज हमारे साथ मौजूद हैं एक बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान जिनको मैं बुलाना चाह रहा था almost for the past one year. Actually follow तो मैं इनको कह रहा हूं well over the past decade but यह है कि last one year से क्योंकि जिस direction में हमारी conversation जा रही थी it was very relevant but वह tie up नहीं हो पा रहा था thankfully वह हो गया and he is based out of लोहौर so since हमारा यह लोहौर studio setup हुआ भाई we just thought कि we'll have that this conversation. आज हमारे साथ मौजूद हैं नबील कदीर who is the founder of Idea Corona का. I know for a lot of people जो कि recently कह रहे हैं कि Pakistan का shark tank, Pakistan का shark tank, you know they have seen Idea Corona का as well and they are waiting for the season two to be coming out I believe season one आ चुका है. हां ना season चार हो गए में. अच्छा चार हो चुकी है. हां तब कोई देखता था ना. Right right right. हां से देखेंगे. He is the founder of Idea Corona का he also was instrumental in setting up plan nine, plan x जो कि incubation center से for the government of Punjab PI TV के साथ. He was also instrumental in, you know, helping out draft the policy for कामी आप जवान and a lot of what happened there. But इन sort of multi disciplinary किसाम का एक experience रहा है. He also has a book that's come out a year ago which is called this book is about you zero to one. क्या कोई element है we're talk more about that as well. नामील भाई thank you so much for being part of the show. Thank you मज़ामान. Conversation में थोड़ा सा start करूंगा. Just trying to understand where were you born and what was early life like for you? जनाब लाहौर से यह example है
और life, early life भी लाहौर में, early education भी लाहौर की है और I mean अगर आप पूछे जाओ पीछे जाओगे तो फिर अमृतसर और जलंदर से आते हैं back in 1947 और आपको एक interesting fact बताता हूं. So अमृतसर and जलंदर is still पंजाबी but across the border. हां across the border पर Punjab है ना वहां भी. Right. वहां का Punjab है और तो yes, it's basically belong to a family that has more or less been flirting with the line of business And every now and you guys migrated in the partition या उससे पहले आकर? Yes, partition के कुछ साल पहले से और partition के time पर. यानी that's that's where we came to लाहौर. And so growing up schooling वगैरह कहां से थी? लाहौर में ही थी. Alma से schooling की अपनी O levels किया. उस वक्त Alma बहुत ही नया school था अब लाहौर का. दूसरा batch था शायद हम. फिर लकास back in the day was a pretty fashionable school इसलिए गए थे कि fashionable बहुत था, modern बहुत था. Right. और कोई वजह नहीं थी. अच्छा. और कोई वजह नहीं. What are you a good student, which is here? Yeah, it's a very difficult question to answer. Good student. In my mind I was a good student. Right. But most of my teachers never understood that. So probably the way that I would define a good student would never necessarily be based on the grades. I think that's a very poor metric in Parksman particularly. A good student in my opinion would be someone who is curious, who is constantly curious. I was constantly curious. I was constantly risk taking. मैंने तो अजीब अजीब चीज़ें की है जी. तो हां number भी ले लेते थे. कम पढ़ के. लेकिन पढ़ते कम ही थे. सही है. Interesting
and so A levels from लाखास and then. Then I went for my BSc computer science from fast. अच्छा. मैं fast लोहौर से था. अच्छा. हां जी fast. अच्छा that's interesting. कौन सा batch था आपका? दो हज़ार एक. दो हज़ार एक. So I mean you were at the I I would expect or imagine that you would be in the tech industry हां हां. But core considering की हां मतलब. Think of computing
growth जो थी उसमें आप. और आप देखो ना उस वक्त वो.com वाला boom था और सारा कुछ and all that वो Y2K शायद 2K वाला drama भी तभी था. हां. And that's when we went to fast. And fast twenty two years later, twenty one years later पर वह तब तो किस एक खंड था. हां. उसमें खुल्ला बिठाया हुआ था जिसने suicide घिरनी हुई चला खुल्ला. तो वहां बिठाया हुआ और वह तो वहां जाकर reality check हुआ कि यह क्या यह क्या story भाई? रखना तो उन्होंने एक सौ तीस को था. एक सौ पचास
चालीस को तो. That's like 1%.
Hardly 1%. 1.5% एक देश से. तो मैं खैरा ख्याल है कि उन्होंने रखा था एक सौ तीस तैंतीस को. मैं second last number पर मेरा नाम आया था. Pass होने वाला abnormal है. हां. उसको हम कहते हैं यार खैर है मतलब दिमाग ठीक है. पांच साल वाला but हां छह के बाद right starts to look awkward. Yeah yeah yeah and I believe at the time there are lot of people जो कि fast के you know EP, फवाद खान and all those guys were from fastest band. हमारे ज़माने में वह फरहान और सारे यह लोग थे जो EP, CP बना था तो यह वह हमारा time ही था. That's वह लोगों का battle shadow of bands होता था पता नहीं क्या. मेरा तो इतना interesting music में पर यह लोगों का था जुल्फी था. पर yes उस ज़माने में यह सारा कुछ हो रहा था. Fast actually was a very interesting place मतलब because हर तरह का बंदा वहां आया है. हां लेकिन वहां पर जो metric था ना वह बड़ा difficult था वह था number. Right. Number आप लेंगे तब survive करेंगे. Right. तो if if nothing else क्योंकि मेरा तालमा matter है. मैं यह कहता हूं कि number से number तो हमने ख़ास नहीं दिए लेकिन यह ज़रूर हुआ कि fast ने मुश्किल targets को, मुश्किल timelines को, nighters को, mainstream कर दिया हमारे लिए. बड़ा part of life बना दिया. So I think we've been able to as graduates of fast. इतने भी गए हैं लोग and you know there are lot of people have done very well. Fast तो पर tech industry में तो आज बैठा ही fast का बंदा है. बिल्कुल. हां जो कि lead कर रहा है. उनमें आप इतने नाम भी देखेंगे these are people who do not mind taking risks and who are very hardworking. मतलब intelligent मुझे नहीं पता but they are very hardworking. So I think that's one trait that fast ensures. Right. आपके अंदर as an institution. अब करता है कि नहीं? यार job में जाने की कोशिशें भी की थी लेकिन somehow मेरा mindset नहीं था ऐसा. I would never fit into any such such a setting. मुझे तो interviews के बाद समझ आता था कि मैं यानी नौकरी कर सकूंगा. अच्छा. हां तो मुझे वैसे भी fast का as I was discussing before and back in the day ERPs का idea error था तो I got into that. So customized ERP implementations मैंने बड़ी की stateओं के लिए. I belong to a family in लाहौर जहां पर बहुत सारे state है रात जानने वाले बहुत शौक से की है और अगर नौकरियां ना की होती तो मुझे लगता है कि आज मैं एक बेदर employer ना होता. Right. हां यह भी एक actually बड़ी interesting
बात है कि a lot of people straight out of college they try to set up businesses. नौकरी आपको शायद technical skills जो सिखाए ना सिखाए आपको एक बहुत सारा ना fundamentals of working सिखाते हैं. सिखाते हैं. कि actually क्या है and then when you actually end up doing that business you are able to create the right structures. हां. And put them in place and really sort of begin to empathize with the, with the workers as well कि यार उनकी क्या dynamics हैं, उनकी देखिए मैं आपको एक एक सुना देता हूं. वाक्या आपने उसका
यह अपनी एक नौकरी का जो कि निराला suites में थी. निराला was my very early job. मतलब उसमें मुझे role मिल गया senior. जो भी था वह बस तो कल आ गया. उन्होंने कहा जी आप automation करें हमारी पूरी और यह वह. तो उसमें automation तो computer पर होती है ना? लेकिन actual implementation तो लोगों के साथ होती है. User तो आपका इंसान है. अब आप ख़ुद सोचिए कि जो निराला suites में क्या हो रहा होगा? वहां पर मिठाई बनाते हैं भाई और मिठाई बनाने वाला हलवाई होता है. तो आप जो MPD की बात कर रहे हैं उसकी आपको actual implementation नज़र आती है जब आप अपने knowledge को, अपनी अंग्रेज़ियों को, अपनी automations को उस हलवाई तक पहुंचा रहे होते हैं और वह आपसे बिल्कुल एक और level पर बात कर रहे थे. मुझे आज तक याद है कि मैंने अपनी ना dispatch automate की. कि मिठाई dispatch हुआ करेगी factory से into retail stores. अब मैं रात को बैठा हुआ था दो ढाई बजे का वक़्त था AM and my job was to teach the first shift of हलवाई's कि आपने यह keyboard पर एक shift और enter का button दबाना है. अब ना उनको shift पढ़ना आता है, ना उनको enter पढ़ना आता है. अब उसके लिए किस तरह से मुझे अपने आप को इतना अपने उन alphases को आसान दर आसान दर आसान करना पड़ा that exploration of my own ability to speak to someone who had a completely different linguistic system than I did. मतलब मैं तो मतलब पंजाबी के अलावा जी बोल सकता था. आज मैं आप मुझसे पंजाबी में दो तीन घंटे बातें करवाए. Thanks to those advice. Right. Because I became friends with them. नज़र आ रहा है. उसके बाद टिक टिक टिक करके वह step निकलना शुरू होती थी और आपकी dispatch automate हो जाती थी. That whole experience of dealing with them and the understanding their problems, उनके घर के क्या मसाले हैं, was beautiful experience and I think that went a long way in helping me help startups later on in later part of my life. When I actually understood the importance of customer satisfaction, customer desirability. Mhmm क्योंकि हर startup जो हम इसे बात कर लेंगे बाद में जो ग़लती करता है वह यह करता है कि वह अपने perspective से चीज़ों को बनाकर market में ले जाता है. Mhmm. वह यह understand नहीं कर रहा होता है customer की pain आया serve हो रही है और अगर हो भी रही है तो क्या उसकी सही कीमत charge कर रहा हूं? ज़्यादा charge तो नहीं कर रहा. बहुत सारी चीज़ें हैं उसमें बाद में बात कर लेंगे. But yes those jobs did help me a lot. So between 2009
to 2011 you were doing एक तो आपने start में early on एक business करने की वह चलता रहा साथ. अच्छा वह साथ साथ चल रहा था. साथ चलाया वह. And then साथ साथ you were working on these sort of projects with shapes, with ईसान चप्पलs, with Pakistan cricket board, with
गोरमे. मैंने बहुत छोटे छोटे set ups पर काम किया साथ और मुझे मेरी आज मेरी ज़िंदगी की सबसे बड़ी जो success है वह यह है कि मैंने किसी भी multi national company में काम नहीं किया. अच्छा. मैं बिल्कुल आज़ाद हूं. I don't quite understand that model. I don't understand कि आप कैसे किसी के ग़ुलाम वन सकते हैं. The the whole idea of नौकरी should not be ग़ुलामी. Mhmm. It should be extreme learning, with the ability to, you know, with the with the the ability to just learn anything and everything you want to learn from that job. यह नहीं कि मेरा यह department है मैं marketing में हूं मैं marketing में ही काम करूंगा मैं यह तीन document बनाया करूंगा रोज़ मेरा यह काम होगा सुबह शाम हम कुछ creative कुछ दूर गया करेंगे and that's it और उसके बाद हम खाना खाना जाएंगे लांतों भाई उसका तो कोई फ़ायदा नहीं है. Actual game, actual नौकरी जनाब वह होती है जहां पर आप वाक्यतन a to z पूरी की पूरी cycle देख पाते हैं कि कारोबार जल कैसे रहा है? उसके मसले क्या हैं? Is what sometimes worries me when young people think that they can build businesses in a jiffy. Mhmm. ऐसा होता नहीं है. There's no replacement to experience. Right. And that you only learn by experiencing that experience. Yeah. So, yeah. So time,
time दे है. Patients I think one of the things that the newer generation tends to miss is that patients. You see these articles, this guy did this and two years later he is a millionaire. Generally उन articles ने जो जो जो fine print है वो सारा निकाल दिया होता है. जो actual जहां पर वो जलीर हुआ है और उस जलालत ने ही उसको बनाया है. बनाया वो उस पर बात ही नहीं करता उस पर बात ही नहीं करता and more often than not you know when I speak to people to be very honest very easy to identify a useful entrepreneur then a fluff Is there when you are talking to them if they are telling you all about their successes then more often than not a fluff. When they really begin to talk about कि sir यहां पर हमने यह किया और हम ज़रूर हो गए और फिर हमने वहां से निकाला और जब failure को वह तमगे के तौर पर पहनते हैं ना तब आपको नज़र आता कि यार यह बंदा Real है.
Important है. दो तीन चीज़ें थी. देखो हमेशा से मेरा politics में interest था. ठीक है? Politics को पढ़ना यह वह और अगर आपका बहुत open platform है तो मैं बता दूं कि मेरा यह ख़ास तरह की सोच के साथ बहुत ज़्यादा मैं चाहता था कि काम करने के लिए यह तो समझ आए government चलती कैसे? तो यह मुझे बड़ा shock था कि government में कोई अगर कोई jack लगाना तो मैंने एक पंगा ज़रूर लेना है कि कोई नौकरी मिले जिसमें I get to see the whole concept of how to write a PC one, two, PC two, PC three, PC four. Project की implementation कैसे होती है? Development projects कौन से होते हैं? Non development कौन से होते हैं? Government चलती कैसे है? How does the government operate? You can't learn that by staying outside of the You have to be in the system. तो यह ख्वाहिज तो थी. Opportunity कोई भी नहीं थी because मेरा पूरा खानदान में कोई government servant नहीं है. Mostly लोग हुए हैं जिनके अपने कारोबार हैं या फिर वह लोग हैं जो वह into jobs and all this. वह सारा सारा तरह की family है. Government वालों को ख़ास कोई पसंद भी नहीं किया जाता हमारे घर में. तो I was the first one and वह हुआ कैसे जनाब? मैं बाहर पढ़ रहा था and I think my most important year अच्छा sorry यहां पर मैं pause करूंगा. I actually didn't
follow through with that.
यहां pause करिएगा hold that thought. Tell me about क्योंकि आपने कहा आप बाहर पढ़ रहे थे. When did that happen? मुझे बताना लगा मैं आपको. चलो आपने पुछ लिया अब तो मैंने कहा I wanted to come to the job. So आपने पुछ लिया तो बता देते हैं. Then अब हुआ यह था कि यह भी story है पूरी कि मैं यहां पर था. Ok then let's just open up on this on on your show for the first time. My parents had a bit of a tiff. अच्छा. And that changed a lot in my life. Right. A lot. We were these kids, these three brothers who were born with a golden spoon. Right? हमें यहां पर सब कुछ मिला मिलाया हुआ था. लेकिन हुआ यह कि there was some disagreement and it got worse same years you were mentioning, '8, nine. And then there was a a gap between the two individuals, the two elders of the house. That changed a lot in for me as the eldest son. Why? Because I was never taking life that seriously before. But after that, I started seeing something. I started seeing how if that support system is gone now, it's going to impact the way we live because if you ever visit me, इंशाल, I'll invite you. I live in a very old house, but it's a very big house. And it's for it's for my grandfather made back in 1966. Right. तो हम बड़े Cavalry ground में रहते हैं. तो बड़ा हम legacy है हमारे उस घर की. वह बड़ा घर का मतलब है बड़े ख़र्चे. Right. बड़े bill. खुद ना देने हो तो पता भी नहीं लगता. हां. लेकिन जब वह element हट गया finance finance का और investor का तो I started realizing that I'll have to not just be a support to my mother because she went through some tough time and she started getting unwell also after that. उसके बाद my role changed. Right. So when my role changed, I understood कि what are the things that I'm missing in my life right now? One other thing was I think back then, that's what I felt. I could be wrong. Today I could be wrong. But back then I felt I thought I need international exposure. Right? So we had the money but that money now was अब उसकी utilization थी. अपने पर लगाऊं. हां. घर के लिए रख लूं. भाइयों पर लगाना है, किस पर करना है? So we were able to negotiate something with our, in our system. I can't say a lot here. Right. But we, the brothers decided that we should divide this money and both of us should go to our masters. Right.
So that's how we went and I went to my masters then. Do you think and and and here I'm I'm I'm taking a bit of a stretch but do you think क्योंकि यह एक बड़ी emotional सी चीज़ होती है and पाक्षा में don't talk about it, I appreciate that you did. Do you think in in a way having gone through sort of that trauma because you don't expect something like that to happen. Yeah. Going for your master also you trying to sort of get away from a lot that was happening and retake that distance to heal.
मुज़मिल it's I think अगर आप उस तरह पूछेंगे ना इसको तो मैं यह कहूंगा कि उस वक्त तो a lot of things happened. My grandmother passed away. I have not spoken about them but my real parents for me were my grandmother and my grandfather. So when I lost my grandfather in 2003 I basically lost a part of me because I was so attached to him and after patients की बात की मैं उनको उनका quote कर देता हूं और मुझे हमेशा कहते थे बेटा patience के patient वन जाओ, काम आएगा. Patience patience patience and it always help me. जब जब मुश्किल रखता है ज़िंदगी में मैंने patience के साथ चलाऊं तो अल्लाह ने reward कर दिया. तो दादी passed away in 2011. अब यह घर के हालात थोड़े अजीब से थे. दादी के साथ तो मेरी attachment है जब सारे पराठे ज़िंदगी को उन्होंने खिलाया मुझे और खूब लाड़ों में हमने बड़े हुए हैं. मेरे जो fast के दोस्त भी आए करते थे. Of the house. Right? So when she passed, I think that completely made me feel very lonely and I felt the the gap. And I and वह सब कुछ इतना build up हो गया कि I realized कि I I think I need a break. I think I need a break, but I'm not running away. I'll come back. Right. And I'm going to link this with your first question, why the government? I went and chose a degree at Strathclyde in Glasgow after looking at बड़े कम लोग होते हैं जो पहले पढ़ते हैं कि यह पढ़ा क्या रहे हैं इस course में. Mhmm. तो मैंने जो program director का note पढ़ा उस university में, his name is Peter McKennis. He wrote the foreword of my book as well. अच्छा. Yeah. अच्छा Because we became friends then. I met him ten years ago and I love what he wrote. He wrote about self reflection. He wrote about how I'm not gonna teach you basic marketing, accounting, and blah blah blah here. So if you're coming for your master's program, it's gonna be a master's in yourself. Right? And that to me was the sexiest thing I had heard. Yeah. I was like wow, what is that? तो जब, तो जब university
That level of self awareness तो Pakistan में छू छूगर भी नहीं करती ना आपको. चक्कर ही कोई मतलब
दो हज़ार ग्यारह की बात कर रहा हूं पर I took the leap of faith कि यार I had options, I had other options also of better universities. Ranked third, fourth, fifth in The UK. यह तो पता नहीं पच्चीस पच्चीसवें number पर दुनिया में जहां मैं गया हूं. तो matter नहीं करता था मुझे. मुझे matter किया वह जो एक page था and literally trust me I did the best thing in my life पर going to that university because that changed everything. नबील कदीर became नबील कदीर in his mind also after he realized who he is. Right. And I think I realized that in that year in the mountains, in the islands, I was able to really explore myself. I was I was the way they जो इनकी pedagogy थी ना पढ़ाने की, वह बहुत ज़बरदस्त थी. It was very practical, समंदर में डाल दिया. Seriously, genuinely समंदर में डाल दिया हमें तीन दिन के लिए कि भाई वहां पर एक दूसरों को बचाओ. There was an entire game that we had to play, a management game. I mean इसके लिए आपके अंदर उन्होंने आपकी जो है ना अंदर की empathy, आपकी realization for others, teamwork, यह वह उन्होंने सब कुछ कराकर दिखाया and the genius behind was Doctor Peter McCanis. And so I I'm a big fan of his. उनके चक्कर में आज मैंने किताब भी लिखी है वह इस चक्कर में लिख सका मैं. क्योंकि I he put that thing in me. Mhmm. वहां पर मुझे अंदाज़ा हुआ कि in my situation कि what is it that what is that will give me that that that that that feeling of fulfillment? घर में तू जो हो गया हो गया. अब मैं क्या करूं? Mhmm. पैसे कमाने कमा लूंगा, capable हूं, कर लूंगा. Mhmm. बुरा हाल नहीं है, सड़क पर नहीं है. Mhmm. That's not the problem. What is the problem? Mhmm. Problem is I'm only thinking about very small things. So back then is when I realized कि I need to go back to Pakistan and do something that has to make more sense than just worrying about me and my household. If I will go help others, definitely one day I I mean, that's that's a belief system. God will help me. So and my system and my household. तो उस mindset से मैं वापस आया था. कोई plan नहीं था, कोई कुछ नहीं था कि मैं कहूं मुझे exactly बताता मैंने क्या करना है. मुझे कुछ नहीं बताता. My mother was like dosed of oral cancer. Oh. Back then. So it was a very tough period for us. Yeah. So I had no option but to come back and be with her. I had no option. It wasn't even an option in my mind. So I had to come back and when I came back one fine day I got a call from a government number and two of my friends were working there. I first I found out PITB was the place and they said doctor उमर सेहफ is this chairman of the of the the board and board तो नहीं board का chairman तो CM होते हैं. अच्छा अच्छा. छबा शरीफ होते हैं. ठीक है. But chairman of PATV. तो वह है वह लगे हैं बड़ा dynamic आदमी है यह है वह है and he's looking for someone dynamic. So to run what? He wants to set up Pakistan's first incubator. So मैंने कहा वह क्या होता है? तो मुझे आज तक याद है उम्र में मेरी जो meeting हुई तो उम्र ने बताया मैं MIT में था, मैं यह था वह सब कुछ because वह बहुत लायक आदमी है no doubt. तो उनकी मेरी synergy वन गई थी. We were able to we had a great relationship और उस पर जब हमारी actual working पर आए और paper पर आए तो यह नहीं पता था कि incubator हमने चलाना कैसे है? We said figure it out man. I don't know, figure it out. So we figured it And it's also important to understand you know this was a time in Pakistan जब क्योंकि it was so new that I I think capability
across the board नहीं थी. वह really from ground up build हुई है उस time के ऊपर. Identify की गई है और build हुई है and I think, I mean I have a lot of opinions about incubators as they sort of evolve but plan nine I do have respect for. Have always had respect for हां, देखिए, मुज़ामिल
I would I would sorry to cut you but because I I am one of the pioneers now of this because पहला सारा system मैंने लिखा मेरे हाथ से बने सारे batches पहले ग्यारह batch निकाले हैं मैंने वहां. Nothing is changed in incubators. Actually हमें I think we have lost the plot entirely. हम जितने माठे तब थे ना, हम उतने माठे आज भी हैं. Mhmm. यानी मतलब हम मैं अपने आप को कह रहा हूं हम माठे थे. Because we didn't know how it's done. Yeah. But that was 02/1213. Yeah. Now it's 2022. Yeah. Not a lot has changed in incubators, because it's become a safe haven rather. Yeah. कोई भी business जो incubators में बनेगा, मुझे समझ नहीं आती कि वह reality से कैसे क़रीब होगा? मेरी यह although मैं बनाने वालों में से हूं, मैं और incubator को बेचने वालों में से हूं. आज जब मैं reality के ज़्यादा करीब गया हूं, खुद कारोबार किए हैं, तो अंदाज़ा हुआ कि as such वह हम नहीं कर पाए जो हमें करना चाहिए था. But आपने पुछा था government में कैसे आए? Government में ऐसे आ गए. ऐसे आ गए and so how long were you working there, गिना? For five and a half years. अच्छा. I worked till the a few months before the elections. अच्छा. Because अब मैंने वह campaign champion में शामिल होना था. There would have been a serious conflict of interest. Serious because मैं था कि अब I am going to be supporting a party. Propagate करने की कि यार यह एक industry है, यह एक industry है, यह वन सकती है industry और हमने फिर freelancing trainings आना शुरू की. That's another thing that I think added to a lot of my learning around young people. Government में जो मुझे फ़ायदा बहुत हुआ ना वह यह हुआ कि I had resources. कौन सी मेरी थी? Public money. But उसमें जो मुझे I think room मिला बहुत ज़्यादा PATB में वह experimentation का मिला. Mhmm. I was able to run the first government backed program for young children, skill development program with kids. I was able to design it myself and run it with my great team that I had. I was able to run the first accelerator program जिस पर हमने startups को next stage पर लेकर आने कोशिश की. Mhmm. बड़ा ही below average effort थी. लेकिन हमने की, कोशिश की. पहली बार था ना. She's seen my my journey also for over a decade. So I mean I respect her a lot. So वह जो भी करती हैं अच्छा करती हैं नवाब से विश्वाल. वह उन्होंने किया इन्होंने remarkably किया. उनके साथ जो उनका ax factor है वह जवाबदफ़रीद है. Right, absolutely. You should know the जवाबद is a magician also. So उन दोनों ने जो किया वहां ज़बरदस्त किया. लाहौर में यहां पर lambs incubator वन गया, LCE वन गया. Then there was no end. You saw this becoming mainstream and incubator started to happen. Punjab IT board में दो हज़ार चौदह में. Interesting. It was ahead of time. हां. It was called the tech hub. We came up with the name ourselves, we made the logo ourselves. हमने बनाई. तो हमने we did a lot of things in that government का जो period था and I was able to see how government money gets channeled into projects you know and उसको KPIs क्या होते हैं? जब खान साहब या इस तरह के politicians कहते हैं कि हम government money को अच्छी तरह use करेंगे तो उसको मतलब क्या है? So by the time I finished my tenure there at PITV, I closed it in in a very amicable way. 2018 start, we had achieved a lot of things. Right. साथ ही साथ आपको पता है मेरा एक और चीज़ शुरू चुकी The television came in also, वह एक और story है. Mhmm. तो, government taught me the power of public money. Right. And that's why I am of the belief, मतलब मिलकर आप जैसा बंदा या अम्मुल जैसा बंदा शायद इसको ना भी ज़्यादा पता हो. हम bureaucrats तो नहीं है ना? पर अगर हमारे if we if we are well if we keep have the the best of intentions Yeah. And we want and we're well meaning, I think with public money we can do wonders. Why? Because the access is so wide, far and wide. आप एक छोटा सा program launch करते हैं. वह पच्चीस अखबारों में आता है. वह radio पर जाता है. वह लोगों तक पहुंच जाता है और अब तो internet भी बहुत mainstream होगी. तो वह पहुंच जाता है और उसका इतना आप देखते हैं influx लोगों का लोग आऐंगे. तो अगर आप लोगों के लिए कुछ करना चाह रहे हैं ना और आप अच्छी नियत रखते हैं तो आप government के पैसे से मुल्क की तकदीर बदल सकते हैं. That is why I encourage people to go take these technocrat type roles in the government और I hope हमारी सरकार को समझ आए. हर सरकार को कि भाई ऐसे लोग लेकर आओ जो थोड़े से different हैं. हां. जो थोड़ा मुक्तलिफ़ सोचते हैं. जो ग़लतियां करेंगे paper shaper fileओं के ऊपर. हां. तो वह ठीक कर देना भाई. असल game यह है कि क्या कोई ऐसा
काम बना पाएं जो value adding है? तो वह हमारी सरकार fail होती है उस पर लेकिन I think I learnt a lot. Right. And a lot of what I have done after that is a consequence of what I learned right. Through twenty eighteen post twenty eighteen and the television experience I am going to talk about that. थोड़ा सा मैं दो तीन सवाल आती यहां पर थी तो I would like to get your thoughts on that. एक तो यह है कि जब हम PRT TV की बात करते हैं मैं उसको probably दो areas में divide करता हूं. And I know at the time PRT TV had a huge team. You know, not just in terms of the these sort of projects that you were working on but also the tech team, teams, teams. जो कि basically यह क्या होता था CFM project है कि industry and feedback model वह anti corruption वाला और इस तरह की बहुत सारे वह different dengue case में और उसमें. अच्छा मेरी उसमें thought generally ये है कि मैंने अपने experience में देखा कि government money and public money you are absolutely right. जैसे global globally ये बात कही जाती है सिर्फ Pakistan के उसमें नहीं है कि the biggest buyer of services is always going to be the government. Yeah. And if you want to build directions of where the society will go, government can play an incredible role. If if you want to innovate, the government can play an incredible role where nobody else is ready to sort of bank on your idea. The government can come in. They can act as a smart man. Enabler. And so enabling मैं देखूंगा मैं plan nine, plan X को देखूंगा. मैं Erosgaard program को देखूंगा. So on and so forth. As a starter I think they were great because what they did was कि जी plan nine, plan X ने यह concept ले आए कि यार incubators होते हैं. एक एक bus create हो गई, public में interest आ गया. क्या government incubator को सही तरीके से कर रहे हैं कि capability रखती है या perfectly करने की रखती है? मुझे नहीं लगता. उसके लिए आपको private sector and so there is has to be this model where the private sector जब scale की बारी आ रही है ना तो private sector आया और उसको आकर efficiently scale करे. जहां पर for example मुझे लगता है कि inefficient थी PIT भी वह थी in getting a lot of software engineers like that government should not be hiring software engineers. जब आपने software बनाना है तो go do it with आपकी जो software houses बैठे हुए है who will do it much more efficiently and who will do it much much in a much better way and using that public money they will get that scale through which they can begin to you know get together other projects as well. I think हम लोग as even as public we don't really क्योंकि Pakistan में यह बड़ा मसला रहा है post nationalization हमें government की कभी role की समझ नहीं आई है आपने earlier भी mention किया कि government को क्या करना चाहिए? क्या नहीं करना चाहिए? PIA के ऊपर क्या पैसे खर्च like सालाना अरबों रुपए ज़्यादा करने चाहिए just because there is this you know एक novelty value है कि यार हमारी old है like you do you really need it? Like you are spending so much money there right? Or maybe give it to someone who can efficiently manage it give you taxes and actually stop wasting taxpayer on it. So उसमें basically like how do you think in terms of government role की अगर मैं बात करूं you know particularly क्योंकि IT tech नई नया area है आपको क्या लगता है कि government को किस level पर operate करना चाहिए? किन areas में definitely खुद perform करना चाहिए और किन areas में let the private sector do the duty and particularly in the context of कि personally I think government should act as a as a father figure कि यार यह चीज़ पूरी दुनिया में हो रही है हमारा private sector is a bit too scared कि यार मैंने नई जगह पर नहीं जाना चलो कोई नहीं हम कर देते हैं and once it's become mainstream let the private sector take the lead and you move on to the next one. Yeah.
Well देखो मुज़हब्बिल I think whatever you said is is correct. I think PITB maybe this was a major point of conflict with the industry. The industry always had this this concern. By the way, I was the the face of PITB to the industry. So I had to take all the brunt and I had to be a diplomat on both sides because I had to make both parties work. Having said that, government का के अंदर ability होती ही नहीं है efficient execution की. Governments are not structured that way. Governments are like these these these huge elephants, ठीक है? जिनकी बड़ी छोटी छोटा आंखें होती हैं. बड़े बड़े होजूम होते हैं. They they follow a book. They follow a rule book. Software development हो गया, enterprise systems development हो गई. Anything creative at all. Incubators को grow करना हो गया, venture capital funds हो गए. If you want to know why that's not happening, I think I know. उसकी वजह यह है क्योंकि I was in the government system and I have also been outside of the government system. So I have been part of the private sector now and I was in the public sector before. I think the biggest problem is that of priorities. वह clash करती है. Mhmm. Private sector is about making money. Right? It's about the bottom line. It's about the difference between revenues and costs, profits. Yeah. Government में profits is not the goal. Right? Mhmm. The government में goal क्या होता है? Appeasement of the current government machinery. Right. The government setup, the politicians. Right. The the chief minister, the prime minister. Yeah. कल तक बनाकर दो परसों CM ने फीता काटना है. अब अगर आप कल तक चाहते हैं तो मैं उसकी BRD किससे बनवाऊंगा? मैं उसका ऐसा वह सीखो क्या होता है? Requirement specification document किससे बनवाऊंगा? हां. System करके देगा मुझे. NetSoul करके देगा. वह तो भाई पहले चार meetings करेंगे इसे समझने के लिए हो क्या रहा है? हां. Right? This was the ethos कि agile programming चाहिए बड़ी पेंडू किस्म की. हां. थकाटक जुगाड़ू किस्म की. और end goal क्योंकि फीता है तो फीता जिस वक़्त cut जाएगा उसके बाद बेशक बात करके जाना डब्बे मार. और दोबार crash कर जाए पाजन. हां. वह बातचेग that's a separate story you know. That will cover with media. Right. But हमने तो ताली बजवा ली ना, हमने तो अपनी job बचा ली ना. अब यह चीज़ एक mindset सिर्फ़ एक IT board का नहीं है. हां, यह cross border. हर government दारे का है. क्योंकि the KPI is wrong for them. Yeah. The the lack of understanding of tech if you were particularly talking about tech and software वह तो है ही नहीं यार. हां. आप किसी भी tenure में देख लीजिए. बाद में भी tenures आए हैं.
Even watching on the internet was embarrassing for me. I have a lot of people sitting in the private sector they were like यार यह जो है यह it's it's impossible because you have to understand the on ground realities also. ऐसे नहीं हो सकता. ऐसे हो नहीं सकता and takes time. Yeah. So I think वह government
के projects को of course करना तो private sector को चाहिए और यह देना भी उनको चाहिए. गलतियां हुई हैं. पर अच्छी बात यह होगी कि गलतियों से सीख लिया जाए ना और कहा जाए कि हां यार यह इस team को lean कर लेते हैं और यह काम बाहर दे देते हैं और realistically अपनी सरकार को बता देते हैं कि कि CM साहब यह तीन दिन में नहीं मिल सकता है. इसके लिए हम कुछ और वह सब तब हो रही है जब आपका कोई और interest है. तो इसलिए there are a lot of I think grey areas in the government की जो जो mechanism है. As such अगर आप book पढ़ोगे ना paper rules यह वह beautifully done. अच्छा. Oh, it's so well written. But it's not implementable. And दूसरी बात यह है those implementing it don't want to implement that way. Otherwise how will they leverage? To work around that. हां. तो वह तो यह सारा कुछ mixed है. But this needs a lot of good discussion. Yeah. And from both stakeholders to accept their mistakes. Yeah. Private sector and public sector. So this needs to keep happening these discussions. Yeah and I think one of the things जो कि बड़ा मैंने देखा है across the board generally people are I mean sure
here and there you might have one might have have political affiliation. Yeah. One might have interests or this or that but there are there are well meaning people right and अगर उसको बजाय इसके के finger pointing करके करके वह जो discussion वाली आपने बात की है ना कि यार let's let's grow up. Right? Let's really figure out कि what's happening and how do we fix it and and make a make a better situation for for all of us. So so twenty eighteen में you you left the PITB role. Had Idea करोड़ों का started during that time या was it something जो कि उसके बाद start हुआ है? सुजना अब यह होता है.
Idea करोड़ों का started end of 2016. अच्छा. हां और हमने उसको on air किया था 17 के start में. ठीक है. और इसके पीछे जो story है वह बड़ी interesting है क्योंकि I और यह मैं आपको बताना चाहता हूं क्योंकि आम तौर पर लोग बताते नहीं हो कितने ज़रूर हैं. उस पर उस mindset में हमने यह समझना कि जो नया होगा वह हम करेंगे. IT industry में जो बड़ा काम होगा software बनाना हम बनाएंगे. जिसके आपने जितनकीत की, incubators हैं, venture fund है. Do you know उमर and I worked very hard towards one thing and we actually thought it'll work. It didn't. We wrote in a lot of detail impressed by the योज़मा model in Israel. एक public private partnership venture fund को हमने लिखा. हमने उसको pension fund के model से compare करवाया. फिर हम P and D के चक्कर लगाए. मैं personally बहुत जाता था. Finance department के चक्कर लगा लाकर उनको दिखाया. फिर government पता है कहती है यार यह ना बताओ क्या न्या करना है? यह बताओ यह किस जैसा है? अच्छा pension fund type करना है? उसको venture fund कहना है? यह हो सकता है. This is how you work in the government. Yeah yeah yeah and you really have to understand the language. हो full time है ना तो आप कहेंगे जी venture fund होता है, सुकोया है, बैसे होता है और बाहर निकल सुकोया. तो वह तो कहना आसान है ना लेकिन जिस तरह की दुनिया में हम रहे हैं हमें तो reality पता थी क्या है. तो उसमें we knew exactly क्या नहीं होता. तो anyway इस चक्कर में पड़ गए. अब venture fund का पढ़े रहे नई बात बनी. अब मैं आपको link करता हूं with the TV show. So मेरा जो अगला ambition था ना वह यह था यार कि मैंने इतने तो startups produce करना शुरू कर दिए हैं plan nine में कि अब हर पंद्रह बीस companyयां निकलती हैं. Book me type companyयां आना शुरू हो गई.
Book me was also part of that. So I mean that's a definitive success story that you can wear as a medal in your Plan nine yes because I think फिज़ान will second it himself. We had that conversation with फिज़ान on the show and he he, you know, talked about how plan nine was instrumental.
Oh, yeah. Because because that's where, of course, all credit to the founder. Of course. All credit to the founder. But enabling like, right? वही वाली वह किया वह थे अभी early stage पर थे. हमने उनको help किया. Play भी planet आई. वह हमने वहां से किया. बड़ी बड़ी सारी companies भी We plan with also another one. Yes. So, जिसमें बाद में यादव और बाकी लोगों ने भी invest किया. और भी ऐसे बहुत सारी companies हैं before I start naming them तो they they grew up. They grew into bigger industries. Sustainable businesses जो कि Pentella Energy वन गई. इतनी बड़ी solo ही company है Pakistan की. अच्छा वह भी तो ऐसे निकली है. दूसरा batch तो. To mark horseshoes and then ultimately they they went abroad. उसमें भी बहुत हमने जितना हम कर सकते थे help किया and माशालादीर dynamic toward dune degree इतने ज़बरदस्त लोग हैं वह दोनों. उन्होंने कामयाब होना ही था. I think I am the mark cube. मैं वन सकता हूं. बेटे दिल्कुल वन सकता हूं? दो दो पागल मिलते तो बस पागल हो गया. दिल्कुल वन सकता हूं? अच्छा उसके बाद Donald Trump तो हूं नहीं. Right. उस तरह की credibility नहीं है. बच्चा हूं मैं उस वक्त go back six years I was much younger. So, वहां से जनाब मैंने यह ढूंढना शुरू किया लोग people with high net worth and also willing to come on TV and also willing to invest and also the fact that they wanted marketing. Right. और अपनी branding, TV पर ज़्यादा branding होती ना आपकी. तो वहां से जनाब मैंने शुरू की effort और सबसे पहले मैं गया एक बहुत बड़े channel के जी वहां पहुंच गया हूं. वहां पहुंचे करा जी. वहां पर आकर मैंने laptop खोला. यह मैं आपको अब अब मैं ज़लालत number one बता रहा हूं. Ok. ठीक है? तो मैंने laptop खोला, वह बैठे हुए थे अपनी कुर्सी के ऊपर. He was very sleepy I guess and he had something in his hand. So वह कर रहे थे अपना और कहते हैं हां जी बोले आप बड़े references से आए हैं यह वह five minutes. मैंने बताया मैं laptop खोला I started pitching कि sir you must have seen shark tank. He said I have not. गाली मुक गई. So I guess so there is this show जहां investor होते हैं, startups आते हैं यानी है वह. अच्छा अब मैं बोलने जा रहा हूं और मज़हब में मुझे यकीन करें. I have to show it to you how it's done. वह थोड़ी धड़के बैसे हुए, बेटा मशहूर होना है. पैसे कमाने हैं, TV पर आना है. यार बकवास भेज रहा है यार. यह नहीं बिकेगा बंद कर इसको. थक बंद. शादियां करा. तू TV पर शादियां करा. मशहूर होना ना I'll do it for you. कर सकते हो तुम्हारी शक्ल वग़ल भी ठीक है, बोलते भी ठीक हो. Sir मैं देख रहा हूं. अब जिस घर से मैं आया हूं, जिस तरह की background से मैं आया हूं, जिस तरह की तालीम मैंने हासिल की हुई है, मेरे लिए काफी तिज़लील दो महालात थी. हां. मैंने what is this guy doing? But बड़ा आदमी है, style है, कर सकते हैं. अच्छा he gave me an offer and I went back with an offer. I said अब I do not have the guts to say I am not gonna do it. मैं कह दूं आज झूठ होगा. मैंने कहा ok then I have to get back on this because मेरा तो यह plan ही नहीं था. My way back मेरी वह थी air blue की flight और उस late होती थी. तो मैं बैठा airport पर करा चाहिए. I'm thinking thinking thinking क्या करना है यह वह? On my flight back I I thought about it. I took a bit of a siesta and I was like on my way back I said नहीं यार. Is is this really something I want to do on TV? Then I want to come be famous? Yeah. फिर मैं बेहतर drama में आ जाता. हां. तो फिर वह उसे ज़्यादा में शूरी का मिलती है. And वही I can connect connecting back to your education in Glasgow, right? Like That's exactly where I was going. Are you? Thank you for doing that. I'm very impressed. Thank you. So that's the link. That's where Peter McKennis and the discussions we've had on on those bus rides together Yeah. On the streets of, Scotland. Hey. What what is the purpose of your life? What are you trying to do? Is the goal to become known and 10 people, or is the goal to spread the message that you strongly believe in which is entrepreneurship? I genuinely genuinely wanted to spread entrepreneurship to the message. I thought यह करना है मैंने. मैं लोगों तक पहुंचानी है. Mhmm. तो जी मैंने फिर उनको एक message भिजवाया उनका Don news है और उसमें आज़म सैगल who's now passed away. Right. Lovely man, lovely lovely man. I spoke to him. He knew my family. So I requested him कि I wanna do a show. Right? It'll be like the best show and यह हुआ मैं उनको बेचा और मैंने कहा बेटा I don't do this myself. I have a CEO in कराजी go and handle and do this. Very professional. Very professional. Right. Very professional. Right. तो मैं उनके पास गया. CEO साल ने मेरी बात सुनी और उन्होंने कहा यार पता है Pakistan की audience मुख़्तिल हफ़्ता है. तो तुम एक काम करो. Why don't you make a pilot? I said, ok and where? मैं जाम में रहा हूं. Founders बुला लिए कुछ companies के. वह भी चलाकर बैठ भी गए मेरे चक्कर में और बाद में हमारे recording भी की बिल्कुल third class cameras के साथ और हमने एक pilot shoot किया. Right. अपने पैसों का. फिर मैं उनको CD बनाकर भेजी. तो उनका जवाब आया उनकी ख़तून का phone है. हमने कहा जी यह तो बहुत ही below पार है. हम नहीं करना चाहेंगे. हमारे पास slot नहीं है. वहां से भी छुट्टी हो गई. Right. Then जनाब दो other TV channels I went to. एक ने बुलाया और मिले ही नहीं सेठ साहब. उन्होंने ढाई घंटे wait करवाया. चाय भी नहीं पूछी और लोहौर में आप बोलो चाय और पानी मिलना पूछो तो बड़ा mind करते हम. हां. कि चाय भी नहीं पूछी. फ़र्क़ कर दिया. एक और जगह गए वह घुमाते फिर आते रहे. One fine day I met this person in an at an event where I was कहते हैं ना they wanted Batman they got Robin. I was Robin. So they wanted doctor उमर सेहफ to be chief guest at that event at a university. Right. Superior university. Right. Doctor उमर सेहफ's boss and our boss was chief minister शिवाद शरीफ. Right. He called him in the morning, early in the morning कि आओ मुझे मिलने and Doctor साहब had to go. Doctor साहब जब कहीं जा नहीं पाते थे तो he would send me to represent कि तुम चले जाओ यह वह. Kind of him क्योंकि मुझसे मुझे exposure हो जाता था. I was also learning. तो वहां पर जी मैं गया and I met चौदी अब्दुर रहमान who is who is now a dear dear dear dear partner in everything that I do. वह ताल्लुक बनना था. सोलह के शुरू में मैंने उनको वहां मेरी उनसे मुलाकाती वहां बड़ी मज़े की मुलाकाती वहां पर उल्टा पड़ गया काम. एक साहब आते हैं अच्छा अच्छा अच्छा आप हैं. मेरा एक छोटा सा channel है. Very humble, very very humble. मैंने कहा जी कौन सा मैंने कहा Neo. हां I have seen the logo. And I think it was just starting out at the time as Very very very early days. Yeah yeah. Very early days for Neo and a very humble man and he goes मैंने सुना है आप धक्के खाते फिर रहे हैं. तो सारी हवाल निकलती है आपकी from from from chief guest too. The entrepreneur who who has a pitch deck in his hand. Yes sir, I have a pitch. Because वह उस पर ख्वाहिश यह नहीं थी कि channel कौन सा होगा? उस ख्वाहिश थी मैंने show करना है. Turns out that we meet him again after few days. He called me to his office, all respect. Turns out he had already thought of doing it. अच्छा, so he wanted to do a shark tank sort of a thing? So do you know he is the one who came, gave the name. अच्छा. So we were shuffling on the name. He said what about idea, idea होना चाहिए नाम के अंदर और idea करोड़ों का. हां. The idea corona thing happened and then slowly we did a lot of runs on how it will work and यह वह dynamics बनाया उसके हमने. बहुत सी industry में support नहीं किया. आज तक नहीं करते. A lot of people in the industry still think that was a gimmick. अच्छा. Which इसके बाद काफी यह भी सुनने को मिलता है कि क्यों fake investments हैं और यह. वह investments हैं वह पीछे नहीं हुई और controversy भी इधर उधर आई गई. Yeah, हां हां. मैं आपको बता सकता हूं. देखो जब shark tank भी होता है ना तो उसमें दो तीन models होते हैं. मैं आपको बता देता हूं and this you can find out literally because I have met with Mark Cuban at South by Southwest in Austin and I particularly asked him this question. I said I am also a very small anchor of a similar show that you do. Right. South by Southwest Austin में आते हैं सारे. वह तो human heavy वहीं का. Texas का है. तो he said to me himself that हमारे जो investments होती हैं mostly पहले से pre planned होती हैं. हम enact करते हैं, हम acting करते हैं. We are actors. अच्छा for me this was I had done I had done one season. अच्छा. And I thought I am an actor. Yeah. Like top reality TV को reality अरे आ मैं reality कहने के चक्कर में था. हां. किधर real होना चाहिए बड़ा? हां. And he gave me a different kind of confidence. He said look we strike those deals much before. We even tell some we will not invest. हां. But those expressions have to come. The sponsor wants to look at those expressions. That was a completely new perspective. Yeah. But let me tell you something. I can vouch for this. Only 37 to 42% of the investments actually happened after the show. Commitments जो हुई थी वह real thing. But
धैरा you get more information. यार,
हमारी com में मैं तो हैरान हो गया हूं यार. मतलब जिस तरह के इन्होंने gun मारे हुए थे तब यह numbers फ़ज़न करके. हां. और of course कुछ ऐसे investors भी थे जो unfortunately मेरे मेरी bad choice थी. हां. And they were they were misusing people. Right. Because people want to come on TV for several reasons भाई. Yeah. As someone who's a convener, I have to make my show happen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Intent never was to harm anyone and first of was to help people. But we were able to give people television time and then Internet time. That's what I am very proud of. A lot of people still think in the in the venture capital space कि वह show venture capital ही नहीं बना हुआ था. I agree. मैं हमेशा कहता था कि angel investment का show है. इसमें आपको पचास लाख, तीस लाख institutional investment की तो बात ही मैं नहीं कर रहा था. हां लेकिन जो investors थे, institutional investors like venture capitalist like राबील and नाहीम and lot of folks from abroad also came in to to be panelists and all. Actually what we were able I was able to partner with Facebook. I was able to partner with She Means Business. उन्होंने अपने दस investments हमारे show पर किया. अब वह तो पहले की हुई हुई थी. Mhmm. लेकिन उन्होंने दिखानी थी हमारे show पर. अब वह Facebook मेहमान तो नहीं है. वह चाहते थे हां. तो ऐसे भी offers आईं कि there's some money. Want to park it? Just just park it. Just move it around. Just move it around. Car wash, soaking vetshella. So, again the book. Scotland value system. You don't do certain things. I was very proud of the effort I made but there were mistakes.
It's gonna improve. I'm gonna come with a new season, इंशाला. So this is very important because I feel like, you know, you you came in at a time when nothing was there and you built and and and to be very honest credit where credit is. Do you आज कोई आकर कहता है ना कि यार मैंने एक investment वाला show बनाना है. देखिए shark tank US बहुत फ़र्क़ होता है और जब shark tank India आता है ना कुछ भी India आता है इस मुल्क में. तो pick up उसको copy paste करना बहुत आसान होता है. बहुत आसान होता है. And so last year when shark tank India was going viral all across Pakistan तो तब जब मैंने देखा मैंने कहा यार अब तो it's a it's a no brainer to do this show in Pakistan because now पहले India आता और आकर ना validate करता है local mass population को कि यार यह चीज़ है. ऐसे होता है. ऐसे होता और वह उसको ना ऐसा इसमें एक सबसे जो important चीज़ है I think वह यह है कि there is a huge difference यह आपने भी experience किया होगा. There is a huge difference between the expression of the English language and our local देसी वह. तो जिस तरह से जो उसकी dramatization है जो जो जो English language में हो रही होती है जो हम आप जैसे western content देखने वाले grow up किए वाले लोग जो होते हैं उसको देखते हैं जब उसको अब आप masses के लिए उर्दू में कर रहे होते ना suddenly it loses a lot of that flavor. Yeah it does. उर्दू language is a lot more sweet, it's a lot different and so हमारा वह media इतना बड़ा ही नहीं हुआ कि वह उसको पता हो कि हमने इस तरह की innovative चीज़ों के अंदर वह expression किस तरह नहीं कराना है. And so now that we have that model of of of shark tank India that's doing that in उर्दू that's showing you how local emotion को tap किस तरह से करना है because like you mentioned it is inherently a an entertainment platform where the primary role is entertainment and the secondary role is this this inculcation of entrepreneurship in the mind of the masses, right? So, तो उस तरह से वह model develop हो रहा है. लेकिन फिर आप गए हुए हैं. And so my question is कि you know this is the time. This is where all of that effort really sort of you convert that effort and and you
know.
Actually बहुत अच्छा आपने पुछा कि And and इसमें थोड़ी मैं एक element यह भी add करूंगा कि I know for a fact that there is another party who's coming out with a with a similar show. I know that they're they have some very very powerful backers And so, you know, there is that direct competition potentially. मेरा जो अंदाज़ा है वह January to March के दरमियान वह आ जाएगा. So so why are you when you have a legitimate established brand that you can really and am not necessarily saying कि idea करोड़ों को as it is transcribe नया season निकाल दें जल्दी में. I think उसको reimagine करें. अब जब dynamics फ़र्क़ हो गया और उसको अब एक बड़े scale में लेकर आए. Think there is a lot more institutional interest across advertisers, across investors, across everyone. Now not just with the shark tank India situation but also with the मैं इस तरह से बताता हूं sorry मैं थोड़ा सा extend कर रहा मैं Sure context को please please please. कि last year के जो air lifts of the world and all of these की वजह से एक तो यह conversation mainstream हुई. आज से दो साल पहले जब हम जाते थे और जाकर startups की आपको याद होगा वो होती थी webinars and जैसे ना चार सौ पांच सौ views ज़्यादा की कहानी नहीं थी. आज मेरे show के ऊपर अलहम्दुर अल्लाह startup की conversations दो दो लाख डेढ़ लाख views के ऊपर गई हुई है वो बड़ी उसकी एक you know एक वो हुई है और उन्हीं की छोटी जो micro conversation है वो TikTok और Facebook वगैरह millions के ऊपर गई हुई है. So you understand now that the masses have the fundamental understanding of what all of this is. Maybe not as nuanced but the understanding and so your role as the person who builds that nuance suddenly becomes supreme. Yeah. And so why are you lost? Very good question. Again, I'm again impressed by how you asked this question because a lot of people will not will not look at it this way. देखिए,
I think considering I was the first one to do it, there's a bigger responsibility on me now to come back with something much more potent, much more, proper. I think, जो लोग नए करने लगे हैं, करें. But there's a bit of an issue that I I am personally going through mentally. But if you want to, again, आपका शोजना बड़ा important हो गया. मैंने बड़ी important बातें बताना शुरू कर दी है इसमें. I'll tell you something very important. I have traveled to 87 cities of Pakistan. Many How people have traveled to 87 cities of Pakistan from my ecosystem? आजकल हम सब ecommerce बेचते हैं, talk में बेच रहे हैं, freelancers बेचते हैं, यह बेचते हैं, वह बेचते हैं. I have a company called Direction. In January, you will read an article in Pro Pakistani or some blog this is now the largest network of training centers. When I figure out the model, I will make it work. The more I interact with a common man, the more I'm seeing disgruntlement, complex disassociation, disconnect with the institutional so called venture capital list of Pakistan.
Because they are inherently part of the status quo, right? वही convert होकर आप modernize हो गए हैं but inherently
they are part of the old guard. The point is when I travel to these cities, मुज़मिल, the and I can understand this. That's why I haven't come up with something new. I've been working on a new model since February, March, ever since this shark tank thing happened because everyone started telling me, फिर करो, फिर करो, फिर करो. यार, क्यों नहीं आ रहे? यह वह. And I announced as well with आज़ाद in some discussion कि यार, मैं करने लगा हूं. But then there's something called self reflection. You want to, you you don't want to make the same mistakes again, number one. दूसरा, you want to genuinely genuinely, why did I do that show? या मैं फिर आपको repeat कर रहा हूं. I got offered to do a film after that show. I got offered to do to do some television gigs. I didn't do none any of that. Why? उसकी वजह क्या है? I'm not an actor. I am not someone who can read a script. You've not used a script. I have not used a script. We, I just don't work on a script. Actors work on scripts, whether they're whoever they are. Right? I don't agree with that philosophy. So that's out. Now what do I do? So I went on to go around Pakistan figuring out किस बच्चों को कौन सा skill चाहिए. कामयाब जवान हम कर रहे थे उसमें हमें अंदाज़ा हुआ कि यार चलो, यह करके देखते हैं. You know, you're fighting con constantly, but you know that the future of of education would be skill based. It can't be the same crappy curriculum you and I did at FAST or other places. It's not gonna work anymore. It has to be a skill. हमें skilled universities चाहिए. आगे यह तो fact है. अब वह figure करना है कैसे model होगा? That's something that I wanna do next. मेरे जिन में फिर मेरे ख़्वाब है कि मैंने एक बड़ी skilled university बनानी है. That's my 2025 की dream. Right. And I'm working very diligently towards it. These centers, this direction, the brand new hair, इसके ऊपर तनक़ीद भी मिलेगी और सब कुछ अगर मैं तैयार हूं, मुझे तनक़ीद की आदत है भाई. I know exactly how this will give me data points to a university. I know exactly what I'm doing. And it'll be a university for the masses. मुझे आप Pakistan में venture capital funding होती है और यह किनको मिलती है? You go into the demographic of the people raising those funds. Yeah. They're privileged few like us. Yeah. I intend to, this is gonna be bad, मुलोगों को पूरा लगेगा. I intend to and I'm always gonna be the voice of those who are not privileged. So who are, who who say to me कि हम उस event पर आना चाहते थे. हम बाहर खड़े होकर वापस चले गए. वहां सारे English बोल रहे थे. Mhmm. लोग हम वहां जब बात करने जाते थे किसी बड़े mentor से या venture capitalist से तो वह हमारे कपड़ों को देकर ही हमसे बात नहीं करता था. क्या पता उसका complex हो भाई. हां. लेकिन कौन तोड़ेगा? हो रहा हां you have to you have to figure out a solution to that. Figure out a solution to that. अब मेरे लिए यह मसला यह है कि मैं एक बड़ा hot किस्म का show बनाऊं. मेरे पास अपना channel है अलहाम दुरिल्ला. हम उस पर sponsor ला सकते हैं और मैं बना दूंगा रिज़ी के style में बड़े ज़बरदस्त venture capitalist को बिठाकर चार को show बनाऊं. उसको तालिया भी मिलेंगी, YouTube पर हम उसको बेचेंगे, digital marketing टिकाल करेंगे, media buy करेंगे. पांच सौ dollar, हज़ार dollar लगाएंगे, ठोक देंगे. आपका तो natural होता होगा, हमारा तो नहीं होगा. हम लगा देंगे. हमें सारे जुगाड़े आती हैं. सारे काम करनी है अब. लेकिन will add will I sleep in peace at night? I think वही वाली बात है ना. A lot of people understand the context. वह जो मंजन है ना वह जो मंजन वाला system चल रहा है आजकल वह उस मंजन और उस actuals के दरमियान के एक जंग है. उस पर मैं अभी तक आपने पुछा ना where you lost? I am lost right there. I don't quite know मैं किसके लिए अगला show बनाऊं. उससे क्या फ़ायदा हो? मुझे क्या यह दिखाना है कि हमारे मुल्क में माशा दा बाज़ार हो गया, ताज़िर हो गया. यह जो अच्छी companyयां हैं चार छह इन्होंने इतने million dollar raise कर लिए. Because the
the real to god factor, fact is कि आप यह सारा अगर बना भी लें तो जो actual startup है और जो actual पैसा है वह जो process है वह बिल्कुल फ़र्क है. So आप actually masses को एक गलत dream की तरफ लगा रहे होंगे. जो achieve नहीं कर सकते. जो achieve नहीं कर सकते. और उसके बाद disjointlement.
जो मैंने बोला disappointment. हम तो कर नहीं सकते. हम कैसे करें? हमारे पास तो IV league के links नहीं है. हमारे पास तो यह नहीं है. हमारे पास network नहीं है. हमें तो reason ही बोलनी आती. I somehow want to bridge that gap between those with the money, right? And the intent. So I still think I'm going back unfortunately, but I still think our angel investment network needs to become better. It has to become more credible. Mhmm. Angel investment में वह लोग आ गए जो कुछ con artists थे. Mhmm. हुआ ऐसा. अब उसकी वजह से यह तो मतलब नहीं कि angel investment ग़लत है. पर एक आम बच्चे को भला भलवाल के गांव में या लईयां में या स्वाबी में जिन शहरों में मैं जाकर दो दो राते रहा हूं, लोगों को मिला हूं, meetups किए हैं मैंने, पिंडू meetups.
In two minds about things. तो मैं वैसे नवीन भाई आपको एक बड़ी interesting बात बताऊं कि मैं भी आजकल इस dilemma में हूं. मुझे लगता थोड़ा सा ना जो जो the times that we are living in locally and internationally there is a political crisis going on, there is an economic crisis going on, had so many interesting experiences that we never to be very honest we thought about. Like how many like. मैं आज दो हज़ार चार पांच का जब आप graduate हुए थे उस वक्त का नबील उठाऊंगा उनसे पूछोगे यार आप पंद्रह साल बाद यह कर लोगे आपने हंसना कर दिया है पागल. क्या बातें कर रहे हैं? हां never in the wildest imagination. Never in the wildest imagination right and so the sort of people that we are we tend to drive what we do based on how we see a future and we try to backtrack from जो आप इस वक्त जो अपनी battles होती जिनको हम काफी दफा ignore करते हैं because there is so much happening that we have to be part of that. Because a lot of things will not be happening. Maybe it's a great time to look inwards and build those fundamental building blocks of our own self awareness
that will drive the, that'll drive the, you know, ten next ten years of life. Beautiful. What you what you said about awareness was beautiful and that's amazing. Why? Because that's exactly, how I try and perceive my life now at 40 and मैं देख रहा कि जितने विसाल रह गए हैं उनको कैसे meaningful करना So I have these plans and उसमें I am somehow in the state of introspection right now कि अच्छा नहीं मैं अगर यह करूंगा तो इसमें इतना वक़्त लगेगा. इसका impact factor कितना है? Mhmm. अब अगर impact नहीं है ना तो नहीं करना. Time नहीं आया करना. Time नहीं आया नहीं करना. हां. और impact है तो उसे calculate कैसे करना है? तो आपने कहा where are you lost? मैं यहां lost हूं. तो I am in that space of introspection right now because मुझे यकीन है कि मैंने एक आम आदमी को उठाना है. अब मैंने कैसे उठाना है? मैं unfortunately उस confidence से तो नहीं कह सकता जो आजकल कुछ मशहूर लोग हैं वही बातें कर लेते हैं कि हम यह देंगे तो ऐसे हो जाएगा, वैसे हो जाएगा. मुझे नहीं पता होगा नहीं होगा. मैंने इतनी देर काम किया आम आदमी के साथ कि मुझे लगता है कि मैं बहुत नाकाम हुआ हूं वह करने में. मेरे पास कामयाब भी बड़ी कम है लेकिन मैं रुकूंगा नहीं and I am I am pretty certain that we will figure it out. We will figure it out. Sir आपका आपने मुझे शोक इसके शुरू में कहा कि उर्दू में बात की जगह. मुझे बड़ा अच्छा लगा. मेरी ख़्वाहिश होगी कि एक दिन आप हम जैसे लोग जो थोड़ा बहुता कुछ कर चुके हैं इनको तो आप लाते हैं. एक दिन आप ऐसा करें आप आम लोग जिनकी कोई significance उनके रिश्त उनके हम साये को भी नहीं पता नाम क्या है उनका? आप उनको बिठाएं यहां पर. Have a prior discussion. Yeah. Of what they want to do, what their fears are, what their complexes are and bring them out in mainstream. And maybe as that person who's steering the conversation, you can ask them those good questions. Yeah. Where that maybe those, कहते ना coaching क्या है? Coaching is about asking good questions. Yeah. And listening. Yeah yeah. So there is maybe the kind of muscle you have with your podcast and because I I personally am a big fan. Have to put it out there because I'm a big fan of the way you you're handling this and you because I know how it is like to be the first one to to actually have impact. Mhmm. Because you get criticized, you get questioned, मज़ाक, वाह वाह, क्या क्या होता है? You get mocked a lot. Whenever you'll do something significant, people will mock you because they can't do it themselves. Yeah. So they'll mock you. So I've done I've seen a lot of that. I'm sure you will see more of this, and you must be seeing it already. But what a guy like you with that kind of following now should do is bring the common man and his or her problem out in the on the surface. जो यह millions of लोग देख रहे हैं. उन उनको उनकी drawing room talk बना दो यह. कि यार यह मसले हैं, मेरे पास वसाएल हैं. लगा दें जाकर. लैया में यह problem आ रही है लोगों को. वह मुज़मिल के show पर दिखाया and they were saying this is the real problem and they want a solution. Yeah. We can't give a solution but maybe we can invest this much. Yeah. I mean, there there has to be a model of of social welfare that we all must figure out through these platforms. You have that noise right now. इसलिए जब मैं TV पर आऊंगा या internet पर आऊंगा, मैं जिस तरह भी आऊंगा मैं सोचकर ही आऊंगा कि मैंने अब social welfare के element में किस तरह वह delta create करना है. Mhmm. अगर मैं वह नहीं कर सका ना तो मैंने अब investments होती नहीं दिखानी सिर्फ़. That's that was as you said एक बक़्की बात थी. हो क्या? कर लिया? I don't want to repeat the same thing again. I wish them well जो लोग आ रहे हैं करने के लिए frankly. I have literally stopped attending events. Mhmm. Past two years, दो बजे एक तो मेरी आवालता बहुत बीमार थी and she passed away few months back. So मैं उस time में मैं मैंने अपने आप को सोच लिया था कि मैं अपने आप को I'm gonna जब भी मुझे लगता है ना कि मैं clear नहीं हूं I go in my shell. Mhmm So I spend time with only the people I know. Yeah. So अभी यह podcast का जो culture आ गया मेरी पहली podcast आपके साथ literally पहली podcast आपके साथ. मुझे तो पता नहीं था यह माई कितना पास होता आप कह रहे हैं इतना पास रखो. तो मेरे लिए पहला experience है. क्योंकि है इसलिए कि है क्योंकि मुझे लगता है कि अब University in itself is a utopia that you can create anything can happen at a university. Yeah. तो why don't we get the right minds to all get together to build that curriculum, to build that culture in this one safe haven. I mean that's that's how I people who are idealist think and I I I am kind of an idealist sometimes. So I want to do this. So I am working towards it. अब आया हूं. Events पर जाता नहीं हूं. मुझे कुछ नहीं पता internet पर कौन मशहूर है आजकल? मतलब I am literally
and I've started I I I've been living my life past few years really just talking about how to generate value because money is a is a representation of value. I think आएगा, वह तो आ जाएगा ना byproduct. हां, byproduct. So there is something that I repeat a lot and you'd be surprised कि ever since I changed my ideology money has just grown beyond my imagination कि मैंने नहीं सोचा था इतना पैसा आएगा. And so I think एक बड़ी basic सी चीज़ है कि यार अगर आप values पर काम करना शुरू कर दो कि what is the value that I am providing to anyone. अगला पूछे भी ना कि यार इससे पैसे किस तरह काम आऊंगा? मैं कहूंगा भाई I don't know but value तो generate हो ना कुछ वह तो. I think वह एक सोच का फ़र्क है. नवीन भाई we are at the one hour twenty two minute mark and I'd like to wrap this up at 01:30. I just quickly wanna talk about first of all, you know, there's the book here. अगर आप मुझे Please. Ask her से के and I'd like for the audience to, look at it as well. You wrote this book, I mean, you released it last year. What was the process? What's the thought behind the book and you know जो read करने वाला है what what can they take out of it?
इसको अगर आम ज़बान में कहोगे तो लोग तो पढ़ने के बाद कहेंगे जब आप liberty books जाते हैं ऐसे बहुत से लोग हैं. मैं सामने ज़कर किया चौधरी अब्दुर रहमान साहब का. What an entrepreneur. उनकी qualities हैं, मुझे बहुत पसंद है. I am inspired by some other people in the business sector also. I am super inspired by the resilience and वह एक mix है, generic mix है of the people I met and the people I read also. So it's a journey of a person from zero to one. Zero वह वक़्त है जब आप पैदा हुए. Right. One वह वक़्त है जब आपने अपना वजूद ढूंढ लिया. You found your brand. Right. So you and you asked me the toughest question you asked me today was before the show, how do you want me to put you there as a क्या क्या लिखूं? Idea करोड़ों लिखना है, क्या लिखना है? I don't know yet. Yeah. Because I don't think I am You don't know the legacy, right? I don't what your legacy Idea में करोड़ों तो एक small step in the game है. Right. Direction will be the largest chain of centers. मुझे पता है इतनी sense है business की मुझे. हो जाएगा. The journey from zero to one is that's why मैं chapters are zero, zero point zero, जो point one zero point two, 0.3. उसमें empathy आती है, उसमें things like setting goals आते हैं, उसमें marketing your brand, marketing yourself आती है और conflict management आती है, people management आती है, making teams आता है. तो it's a very wholesome book. In essence अगर मैं दो मोटी बातें बता दूं इसमें, तो इसमें मैंने एक चीज़ तोड़ी है जैसे कहते हैं self reflection. Right. और self reflection मैंने तोड़ी है in the light of what the prophet मोहम्मद because I have read him. I am I think I have I have some deep association with religion now. Right. Over the years, I've only invested myself more and more in it. I'm trying to still figure out I'm very new in the game. And the more I understand religion, I've understood. And that's why chapter, the last chapter is on faith. Right. So अगर वजूद झूठना है, तो ultimately अपना जो भी ईमान है आपका, अब आप Christian हैं तो वह हैं, आप Jew हैं तो वह हैं, आप हिंदू हैं तो वह हैं, आप मुसलमान हैं. Whatever whoever you are, it's that connection with अल्लाह, with with your creator. That that is inevitable. वह तो है. अब वह किस मर्ज़ी ज़बान में है? Linguistic क्या है वह आपकी मर्ज़ी? अगर वह figured out है तो क्या होगा? तो तीन चीज़ें होंगी. आपकी सोच which are your thoughts, आपके words, आपके अल्फ़ाज़ और आपके अमाल actions. Thoughts, words, actions यह सब पीछे आपकी intentions पर base होना शुरू हो जाएंगे. जो आप कहेंगे ना वह आपकी नियत की अकासी कर रहा होगा. Mhmm. जो आप सोचेंगे वह भी आपकी नियत की अकासी कर रहा होगा. जो आप करेंगे वह भी आपकी नियत की अकासी कर रहा होगा और नियत primarily नियत वह क्या है? नियत is basically this this this this thing somewhere near the heart, near the gut जो कि आपकी spirit से की depiction होती है. आपकी रूह की depiction होती है. Right. तो आपकी रूह कितनी नियतंत clear है on what you intend to do for the people of this country. Yeah. For the people of your household. Yeah. For yourself, वह सब कुछ define होता है तीन चीज़ों पर. The quality of your thoughts, the quality of your words, and the quality of your actions. If you want to differentiate one person from the other, check these three things. You will know who's better, who's not. You can compare. यह किताब इन तीन चीज़ों पर based है. तो उसके ऊपर मैंने उसकी actual implementation लोग कैसे करते हैं and basically it's a guiding light for me also. Time and time again I'll look at it and I sometimes take parts out of it to talk to my students. I'm a teacher by the way. अच्छा. So I've been teaching for ten years. अच्छा? हां, in universities. And I started from you and my alma matter. My first class I taught was at fast. अच्छा. Yeah, so I have been teaching for ten years and I and I love doing that. If if I grow old with whatever I'll have. Academia would would be something that should? I don't know academia, academia से बड़ी तलाफात है लेकिन मैं पढ़ाना चाहता हूं हां. और शायद एक दिन पढ़ाई रहूंगा. तो it's as simple as that मुज़मिल. Whatever we do, if we are not clear about the intent of
why we're doing it, it's better to not do it? Makes sense. That that's how I understand. Makes sense. The book, the book is about you is available online at, I believe, liberty books and, other websites. हर जगह पर, इसकी अपनी site भी है. This book is aboutyou.org. हां, so I am going to put that link down. This is non sponsored. कोई पैसा मुझे इसके लिए नहीं मिला but I just think that if you really want to learn in life if you really want कि आप अपनी ज़िंदगी में कुछ अच्छा करना चाहते हैं तो content जो है ना micro content को ना consume क्या करें और thoughts की गहराई में जाया करें. Podcast is one way to do that but I think books is another very good good way and so you know if you wanna check it out the link is gonna be down below. You can place your order and read more about it. नबीब भाई thank you so much for coming in. This was very very insightful. You know I was thinking of this conversation to go in a very different way and I'm I'm you know one thing I'm really really happy about proud of and and and and honored कि आपने बड़ा raw तरीके से as it is आके मेरे से गुफ्तबू की बड़े कम लोग Pakistan में कर पाते हैं and I think a large like largely मेरे हिसाब से you know अगर मैं किसी leader को देखूं किसी बंदे को देखूं मुझे नज़र आए वह leader है वह उसी में है कि वह इतना confident है कि वह अपने आप को सामने लाकर रख सकता so thank you so much for doing that with us today and it was a pleasure talking to you. It was a pleasure. I'm gonna ask you one last question that I generally ask all of my guests and I'd love your thought on that as well. You know, you've been in Pakistan, in in लाहौर all your life, but you've traveled to 87 cities. Within Pakistan, you also traveled to Scotland and and, you know had that experience and I am sure elsewhere in the world as well. Knowing what you know now seeing what you have seen throughout your life. How would you see Pakistan twenty eight years from now in 2050? You know अगर आप जो तमाम चीज़ें देख रहे हैं, जो तमाम thoughts हैं आपकी उनको मद्देनज़र रखते हुए इक्कीसी image आपको आ रही है Pakistan की अट्ठाईस साल बाद?
बहुत मुश्किल सवाल है लेकिन मुझे लगता है यह कि Pakistan would be successful. Pakistan would pass through this phase. I'm very positive. Why? Because I think the power of, of ideas and thought leaders, young thought leaders are coming up, and they have the the very strong power of the Internet to be able to spread that that voice, that noise. वह लोगों तक पहुंचनी ज़रूरी है. देखें narrative building जो है ना वह एक बहुत बड़ा art है, एक leader का. हमारी और अभी आपने वह mention किया था उस show के हवाले से कि हमारी com में India से जो चीज़ आती है वह narrative वन जाती है, हम उसको copy कर लेते हैं. जिस दिन हम लोगों ने decide कर लिया ना कि हम हकीकी आज़ादी चाहते हैं. पता नहीं मुझे कहना चाहिए कि नहीं? लेकिन हकीकी आज़ादी का मतलब यही है. Let's be masters of our own fate and let's have a narrative of our own rather than taking other people's narrative on success, on failure. तो I think अगर हमें यह थोड़ी सी ख़ुददारी का element, self awareness आगाही का element आ गया. तो दो हज़ार पचास में पुछा ना आपने? दो हज़ार पचास में Pakistan, Pakistan is meant to stay. I have strong faith. Pakistan will stay. We won't. Pakistan will stay and Pakistan will play a major role in the in the in the in the comedy of nations. You'll you'll see that happening. Pakistan we're always there. We are that nuisance factor. Very, very happy part. We are we have that nuisance value. And I'm sure that with the young people like your own self and I'm sure millions others who will take responsibility this country, I don't see us going anywhere in the dark, on on on the darker side of the road. I see Pakistan not as an economic power, but as a country that would that be the that the whole world will start accepting by 2050 as a growing At the very least, not global, maybe regional player definitely. A regional player for sure run by a very youth intensive, you know, we're we're very we're we're a very young nation. Yeah. And that's our biggest strength. We just have to encash it. So I'm very hopeful that Pakistan will stay. Will we be amongst the top most performing countries? No.
Will we be amongst the worst? No. But we would be amongst those that are growing and growing fast, InshaAllah. चलो I am glad I hope you know I am glad to see your optimism and I would hope that inshallah we will be able to see that even better hopefully. लबीन भाई thank you so much for coming in sharing all the insight. Wish you all the very best. Pleasure I love this. And for all of you guys thank you so much for watching. आपका episode we accept anything from 1 rupee to as much as you'd like. It's a thought that counts. But anyways, this was सय्यद मुज़मेरा संजय दी. You are watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.
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