Muzamil Hasan on going global and Pakistan's reform moment

असामिलिकुम खवा तीनों आज रात. Welcome back to thought behind things season four. अगर आपको लग रहा है that you have tuned into the wrong podcast, that's not true. I just happen to be hosting today क्योंकि हमारे जो बहुत खास मेहमान आज हमारे साथ मौजूद हैं, वह है मुज़मिल. असामिल्कुम.

वालिकुम असाम. Thank you for having me on your show. Thank you for having me on your show. How are you feeling? I'm, I'm, I'm feeling great. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about why I am here and why you are there? Yeah, yeah. I am just going to do that. So,

मुज़मिल took a break from the podcast. Season wrap हुआ, खत्म हुआ. इसमें during this time a lot has been happening in his personal life and generally, you know, in Pakistan, overall in the world as well. So, you know, when we were starting this season for thought behind things, मुज़मिल wanted to be as here as a ghost.

I don't want to be here as a ghost. I don't want die here.

मुज़मिल wanted to be here as a guest. Am so sorry. I am going to be as a guest and share his thoughts about all of these things, you know, अपनी life के बारे में भी and generally a lot of commentary on Pakistan and the world and everything that happening in general as well. So the best way to do that was to have this conversation over here, where people like to hear your thoughts. Yeah, I hope, I hope they do. I think they do. Ok, so मुस्मिल, let's get into it then. Yeah. So, यह बताएं कि before we get into where you are right now and what your thoughts are, हम थोड़ा सा reflect करते हैं on the past season, past year के लिए. How do you think generally how your last season was? We will get to specifics as well but एक generally.

I think it was, I mean I think it was amazing. Not just for thought band things but podcasting as an industry. I think, 2022 was the year when we arrived, sort of. Overall अगर मैं देखूं तो personally हमारा podcast भी double हुआ है in terms of listenership. We got some amazing guests. We did a lot of firsts, जो कि बड़ा हमारे लिए important था और powerful था because, जब आप break करते हैं जो चीज़ पहले नहीं हुई होती तो सबसे important moment break करने का होता है. Once it's broken तो फिर दस और लोग भी वह कर सकते हैं and and the ecosystem begins to develop. तो it's the the first time is always the most difficult one and we're very happy कि last season में हमने काफ़ी सारे firsts किए थे. Overall What would those firsts be, like? So, I mean, as a just as a starter, जो पहली episode थी we had the Unilever CEO there and that was one of the first times जब, corporate CEO on that level was, sitting down and having a very sort of human conversation,

वरना बड़े different imagery में आते रहे हैं. Very raw and personal, right? Not just in like a corporate team. Like a conference

type के किसी panel में नहीं बैठे हुए but rather you know like personal उस तरीके से. And that was that was then followed by you know food panda team and वह आए थे अपने आमिर इब्राहिम from jazz and just so many other people throughout the season as well. So वह एक बड़ा अच्छा break था. फिर उसके बाद we got the first time that we had academia. So we had the director from Fast and then we had the vice chancellor of lumps, you know sitting on a podcast and having that conversation again for a lot of people. I was speaking to kids from lumps and they said कि you know काफ़ी दफा हम देख रहे थे we were generally very anti the current VC. He was new, he was bringing a lot of changes and when I when we saw the podcast तो हमें समझ आई for first time कि actually जो जो evolution है वह क्यों हो रही है? Thought process क्या है उसके पीछे? And so जो जो true to our mission कि हमने, you know, we need to get behind the the thought behind things, वह achieve हुआ. So so very happy with that.

I think there's a major first you're forgetting. Which one? Ex prime minister. हां, ex prime minister. Absolutely.

Of course. I mean, that was a that was a tipping point. Right? So that was huge for us and for the industry at large. And that has changed everything because उनको लाने के बाद से I have उससे पहले मुझे यह लोगों को जब मैं call करता था तो मैं कहता था कि अच्छा podcast करनी है. वह क्या होता है? मेरे साथ interview करना है. अब यह है कि you can talk to anyone and you can tell them you are doing a podcast and they know, they understand. Yeah, because for the first time वो एक, because everybody is in, was so interested specially in इमरान खान at that time तो वो एक things ही वन गया. अच्छा इमरान खान की podcast आ रही हाँ. So a lot of the people like उनके लिए it was very new term. Absolutely. But they became comfortable with it. Absolutely and I think उससे एक एक दिन पहले शान का interview आया था which had very similar content to be very honest. अगर content की बात की जाए. But the reason I think why that podcast went well was against the visual imagery कि आपने एक ex prime minister को एक बड़ी sort of casual seat के अंदर बिठा करके एक सामने condenser mic रखा हुआ है और आपने internet के लोगों को बिठा दिया और वह एक मुकान Yeah, में think one of the major things is कि who is taking that interview? Yeah. Like, the

digital internet first folks. Absolutely. Right? Absolutely. That is something you don't get to see. Yeah.

So, think उस वजह से. उस वजह से था. फिर business में we had a first. We had a couple of firsts. सनी स्वाहजा was here. But for me, I mean, the the most powerful conversation of last season was the अब्द्रज़ाक़ दाऊद conversation जहां पर हमने दाऊद family की पूरी history को जो है archive किया essentially. Which has never happened. Which has never happened. He's never given an interview before. I mean, he's done it before in terms of political conversations क्योंकि वह ex commerce minister भी थे. But कभी भी उन्होंने personal अपनी story नहीं मिताई. तो वह बड़ा you know I mean that was one of the most humbling conversation I've had and one of the most exciting ones. I मुझे constantly goosebumps आ रही थी उस conversation के दौरान. तो बड़ा मज़े का वह था. So yeah I mean the last season was for me personally very powerful, very,

Impactful?

Impactful. And

yeah, there was there was a lot that happened. Yeah, and so personally, yeah, I was going to ask you that आपकी favorite podcast कौन सी थी? Would that be अब्दुर रज़ाक़ दाऊद one? That would definitely be अब्दुर रज़ाक़ दाऊद and I think उसकी reason

जो है वह यह है कि एक तो यह कि again it's a timeless conversation. So it's something जो कि you know he is he is very old and he wasn't able to. I don't know if he has a book. I think he has a book or if he is about to write one. But in terms of, you know, modern day जो आपका audio video content है उसमें कहीं पर भी available नहीं था. तो it's a very good sort of two hour, one and a half hour summary और वह कहानी इतनी ज़बरदस्त है कि migrant migrants to Pakistan starting from nothing, building an empire, becoming part of the 22 richest families, losing everything

then rebuilding And creating this eventually.

Creating a sort of billion dollar enterprise more than that. So, I mean, that was just, I would love to do con more conversations like that. अच्छा,

मैं यह पूछना चाहती हूं कि like I am sure and I know कि thought behind things का क्या impact है like लोगों के ऊपर जो आपके viewers हैं और listeners हैं उनकी मैं बात कर रही हूं. But what do you think, what kind of impact in your opinion this podcast has and let's talk about the last season has had on the viewers and listeners and also on the people who have been on the podcast. कोई feedback से या what have you understood?

Should I talk about the people who have been on the podcast first? Because that's, that's a very active feedback and more focused. So in terms of मैं छोटी छोटी अगर बताऊं I know for a fact कि Pakistan की e commerce policy जो है जब वह लिखी गई तो उसमें एक बड़ा instrumental role था कामरान शौकर साहब का who is a former guest on the podcast And the government of Pakistan discovered him because of the podcast. I know कि there has been a startup जो कि हमारी podcast पर आए हैं and they have raised over a 100,000,000 rupees. Because of your Because of podcast. Yes. Oh my god. I know for a fact that there are startups who have been able to find partners कि वह एक startup मेरे पर आई, दूसरी startup मेरे पर आई. They realize कि अच्छा यह वह काम कर रहे हैं जो कि हम कर रहे थे तो हमें यह solution मिल सकता है and they partner together. So in terms of the startups उन्होंने के लिए impact उस तरह से and then obviously यह तो एक थोड़ा niche level के ऊपर है in terms of consumer जाहिर है कि when people a lot of people definitely यह तो मुझे feedback मिलता ही मिलता है कि the the amount of people who reach out to startups and and and people, not just startups but businessman and, you know, folks who are on the on the show. हमेशा मुझे call करके कहते हैं कि we didn't think कि आपका इतना impact होगा. हालांकि हमारी comparatively, हालांकि हमारी comparatively जो viewership है वह थोड़ी सी कम है, compared to other, a lot of other platforms. लेकिन हमारी बड़ी dedicated viewership है. हाँ and there is generally one thing that I know about

any kinds of content and यह digital site पर जो भी content निकलता है and the people who are creating is what I have learned because अच्छा खासा time गुज़ार लिया है इधर. Is that you can never equate the impact and influence with the number of views, followers or likes. Absolutely. Maybe some from likes but not from views or followers. क्योंकि you can have like 3,000 followers and have massive impact and influence on the people and you can have 3,000,000 followers and not have enough impact

or influence. Absolutely. तो वह हां, like in terms of viewership शायद इतनी ज़्यादा ना हो. But वह बड़ी powerful viewership है ना? वह educated viewership है. वह वह future leaders हैं. मैं genuinely मैं यह समझता हूं कि जो thought behind think का viewer है वह leadership role में है, उस pathway में है आने वाले वक्त में. जो active listener है. और उसके अंदर मैं आपको मिसाल दूं ना तो मैं I was very surprised that a lot of the people, a lot of the guests who have who we've had in the third season. एक एक बड़ा मज़ार fact यह है कि third season में almost 85 to 90% of the guests that we had were inward queries. So That's all.

Alhamdulillah. The podcast had become or the brand had become so. Inward queries, you meant कि खुद आए थे आपके पास कि हमने आना. हां हां. Like you no longer have to reach out to people. उनकी

teams वगैरह कोई ना कोई जो है ना वह कहेगा कि you know हम interested हैं, we think it's going to be a good conversation. Then I go through them, I see कैसे कौन सा ऐसी conversation मैं ख़ुद करना चाहता हूं and then you know we were able to do that. So, उस sense में एक एक overall आपको नज़र आता है कि अच्छा एक एक एक brand equity develop हो गई. But more than that, a lot of these people were actually listeners of the podcast. Right? So they reached out because they said, कि ok, we're listening to this conversation. These are important powerful people. And if they are able to find value, if they're able to learn from the conversations, I think that's incredible. And so, yeah, I mean तो यह तो guest की site पर there is that impact. जहां तक consumers का है, you know, I get that feedback on the comment section as well as on in my Instagram as well. I think जो most common feedback मुझे मिलता है in fact I went to the वह कराची हुई जब मैं गया. I was very surprised I did not expect मैंने तीन meetups किए थे. मैंने पहला meetup किया, मेरा ख़याला चार घंटे के notice पर था और हम ना I can't even tell you छोटू चाय वाला के ऊपर था और वह पूरा का पूरा जो भरा हुआ था ना वह सारा TVT का guest audience था. अस्सी पचासी लोग तो minimum जो मैंने एक अंदाज़ा लगाया था. तो वो उनसे जब मेरी बात हुई and I asked them तो they a lot of people said you know कि आपने वो बदल दिया the way that we think, the way that we perceive, the way that we view things and I think that's what I wanted. What I wanted was for people to expand their world view. Expand the way that they क्योंकि सोच एक इंसान की define करती है कि उसने किधर जाना है. Mhmm mhmm. आपकी अगर सोच ही बंद होगी ना, तंग नज़र होंगे तो आपका graph उसी हिसाब से plot होगा. एक positive thought देनी है. हमने उनको यह देना कि यार you have the ability, the power, the potential to be able to make change. पहली चीज़ तो यह है कि you should have the ability or the belief in yourself that you can be a leader. Right? In whatever capacity. जब आप यह सोचते ही नहीं है. आपने दिमाग में अपने आप को जब आपने slave बना लिया तो आप slave ही रहोगे. जब आपने सोचा है कि यार नहीं नहीं I can be, I can rise to the top. That is when you begin to manifest and and and make your way towards that, right? So so that's probably one of the biggest feedback that we received and that's Open their minds. Yeah, and that's the one that I love the most.

You know, like वह बात है कि जब दिमाग खुलता है तो then you start dreaming. You start believing, you start dreaming, you start achieving and I think it's interesting like all of these people जो आपकी podcast पर आते हैं you're essentially connecting them,

connecting the these people who come on your podcast to all of these other people who have no way other way of learning from these people. Yeah, With full absolute context. मैं आपको बताता हूँ कल मेरी flight थी Dubai to Islamabad, right? Air blue And so मैं बैठा हुआ था वहां पर तो the air hostess recognized me and she asked me to come to the आगे वाली एक seat खाली थी तो उन्होंने कहा अब उधर आ जाए वहां पर जो है ना वह leg space जाते हैं. Pugs. मैंने कहा thank you so much. मैं बड़ा वह हुआ मैं आगे जाकर बैठ गया. उसके बस मैं invest करूं और अब वह investment में घुस रहा है जैसे चित्राल की थी वह और चित्राल में ही उनके भाई हैं. अब आप सोचें कि यार चित्राल का लड़का जो है ना उसके पास क्या insight थी? में क्या होने लगा है तो मैंने काम पहले मैंने skill ढूंढना शुरू की, फिर मैंने काम ढूंढा और मैंने अपने आप को fully financially independent किया है only because I saw the podcast and that started my journey towards this otherwise I would still be at home just doing nothing. Yeah. And and यानी कि अब इसको किस तरह से आप लें but for me these are profound life changing experiences. Yeah. Right and that is for me it's what makes the podcast world. And it's so rewarding. It's so rewarding. Yeah, so I think वह बात है कि

जो मैं कही थी कि you know then you can आप believe करो तो फिर आप achieve करते हो like all these cliche things but it's so true और जो मैंने वही बताया कि you connect those people to there is no other way to learn from these people without hearing them talk,

you know, extensively about how they did. Yeah. उससे आप उनकी बात सुनते हो, आपका दिमाग खुलता है, आपको context मिलता है, आपको समझ में आती है. Otherwise everything feels so distant and difficult, right? ऐसे कुछ self help books का नहीं system होता कि when it's curated ना जब चार लाइनें होती हैं, आप यह करें, यह करें, यह करें, आप एक बेहतर इंसान वन जाएंगे. यार उसको समझ ही नहीं आती, वह मुझे भी नहीं समझ आती. I learn best when I you know speak to people and try to understand why they took the decisions that they took and there's a lot of learning from that because उस context में मुझे इतना ज़्यादा रहती है कि अरे अच्छा मैं इस life में उस जगह पर हूं. मेरी उनसे बात हुई थी. He was also in such a place. उन्होंने क्या decision लिया and how it impacted them? Yeah. So it's much more contextualized. It's much more humanized. I think यह बड़ा important है समझने का कि मैं कर क्या रहा हूं यहां पर. यह podcast is nothing else than my journey in learning interesting, useful, valuable things from interesting, useful, valuable people. Things that I can use to make my life better. Yeah. That is recorded and shared with other people so they can be on that journey with me. Right right? So So it's your own journey that is being recorded and that's like knowing you, this is you. Like you thrive on learning from people. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, वो I think जब तक वो है, जब तक मेरी अपनी learning है, मुझे सीधा समझ आ जाती है, मुझे नहीं पता होता. सच्ची बातें बड़ी random भी हुई है conversations. मुझे नहीं पता लगता कि ये वाली viral हो गयी, ये वाली नहीं होगी. क्योंकि to be very honest, not every person who's come on the podcast is a brand name guy. Right? Like he's not the one who's driving the con driving the audiences. Unilever CEO has over a 100,000 views and yes he is Unilever CEO and it's a huge title. But I didn't think कि हमारी audience इतनी interested होगी. But again वह उन साहब की conversation ऐसी थी मैं खुद. I remember, yeah. I came out of it and I was like wow. Yeah, I remember, yeah. You know and so a lot of times वह जब मुझे मुझे मज़ा तभी आता है like मुझे पता होता है कि अच्छा चलो ठीक है यार यह conversation मज़े की थी क्योंकि मैंने सीखा and automatically वह मुझे नज़र आ जाता कि even the audience feels the same way. Yeah and they learn from it. इसमें value थी. Absolutely. एक मैं भूल गया था first mention करना. हाफिज़ नहीं मुर्रेमांश. The first time that क्योंकि कराची की अगर आप देखें ना जो कराची की मेरे elections हैं वह सारी की सारी almost digital पर ही लड़ी गई हैं. और वह start इस तरह से हुआ था कि you know he came to TBT and we had a very extensive conversation. I mean, one of the most again, मज़ेदार conversations जो मैंने, political side से की हैं क्योंकि एक तो इंसे ज़्यादातर humble आदमी. But more than that उन्होंने मेरे साथ detail में बैठकर actual problems को deconstruct किया, उसकी discussion की और वह जब again podcast आई तो it went crazy viral. And then then उसके बाद एक domino effect start हो गया था कि then all the mayor candidates went to all sorts of different podcasts. And for me again these moments are very very powerful because आपने एक एक एक define कर दी space कि यार यह possible है and then there were a lot of other creators who you know sort of followed that and they were able to create a discourse जिससे overall people had much better insight when they went out to vote. It wasn't just the जलसाज़ and the जो ये banners लगे हुए हैं but actual में लोगों ने challenge किया और ये तमाम conversation मैंने काफी सारी सुनी बड़े मज़ेगी लोगों ने की. जिसमें हर इंसान ने अपने context के हिसाब से सवालात किए, challenge किया and then people made better decisions I hope, right? For their future and so I think in terms of अगर मैं democracy की भी बात करूं this is what we need. We need discourse. We need people. जो कि बहुत missing रहा है like. जो कि missing रहा Absolutely. जो mainstream media ने एक void vacuum create किया जो कि अब हम जाकर उसको fill कर रहे हैं. Right? कि actually पता तो लगे apart from the the cup and the लड़ाइयां and this and that, actually पता तो लगे कि यार thought है क्या? Yeah. मुझे इतनी सुनाईयत दो as a listener कि मैं decisions खुद बना सकूं. Don't throw in an anchor there who is constantly trying to take me to one side or the other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. वो आपको

या एक defensive state में लेके आ रहे हैं या आपको pick a side करवा रहे हैं. Like, a side करवा रहे हैं. पूरी nuance के साथ, पूरे context के साथ. आपको

बस पता लग रहा है कि thought क्या है? मैं इस season में I'll have some controversial guests, I'm sure. अच्छा. And वह जो है I'm going to have conversations with them and the public can define whether they agree or disagree with them. Yeah.

There will be no pushing a narrative or pushing an agenda like open conversation like if you want to have an open mind there shall be an open conversation.

Exactly. Think critical questions are important. But critical questions आप दूसरे के सामने रख देते हैं और फिर दूसरा उसको जवाब दे दे. अगर वो avoid करना चाहते हैं वो भी उनकी उनका right है. अगर वो उनका जवाब देना चाहते हैं वो चालीस minute का देना चाहते हैं, वो दस minute का देना चाहते हैं उनका वो right है. You know, तो उस sense में I think overall TBT did well last season but I think overall the industry did well that made me really really happy कि we are now जो podcasting तो एक बहुत बड़ी industry है उसके अंदर जो यह वाला element है ना जिसमें लोग एक एक एक discussion and discourse वाला जो एक element है. I think now we're at a point where it's matured and we're going to be able to have much better transfer of knowledge through this hopefully.

Ok, that's exciting. I hope so as well. So अभी आपने बोला कि you know you talked about like discourse and how the industry is getting better. This reminded me कि you know towards the end of the season you went to a couple of podcast as well. आपकी वहां पर conversations हुई. There is a lot of virality received on those ends as well. You were trending on Twitter. A lot of things happening and taken out of context. But I just want to ask you कि how did you feel about that? Or how did that, I don't know, affect your thinking Yeah. I

So-so let me pull you back a bit. मेरा एक मानना है कि society और यह मैं I'll keep coming back to this but everything happens in a sort of pendulum state जिसमें you know चीज़ें move करती रहती हैं फिर वो वापस आती हैं और कभी भी एक तरफ बहुत ज़्यादा चीज़ निकल नहीं जाती. जाने भी नहीं चाहिए I guess. जाने भी नहीं चाहिए but generally भी अगर मैं as objective मेरा opinion ना भी हो, मैं objectively भी देखूं. That is how human history has always worked. कि वो एक तरफ जाएगी, फिर दूसरी तरफ जाएगी. जब सवाल आएगा तो उसका rise भी आएगा and so on. मैंने overall जो society को देखा है पिछले पांच साल with the advent of social media. What we have seen across the world and particularly in Pakistan is that there is a there is a constant rise in polarization. There is a constant rise in extremist views around different things. वह left हो, right हो, political हो. Pick a side, pick a label. Pick a and side, pick a label. Then right and wrong, black and white. अच्छा क्या for a lot of us were young where you know हमारे लिए यह शायद ज़िंदगी है पहली दफा हो रहा है कि हम देख रहे हैं और वह ऐसे हो रहा है कि oh my god दुनिया बड़ी एक standard सी थी and then suddenly now it's all about the right thing and एक जंग है. ऊपर हम बाद में आएंगी. But अगर हम दुनिया भर की देखें आप America में जाकर देख लें तो constantly आपको इस तरह नज़र आता है. क्या वजह है कि आपको left wing democrats नज़र आऐंगे, फिर right wing republicans नज़र आऐंगे, फिर left wing? क्योंकि society इसी तरीके से flip and वो कर रही होती है and कभी भी ऐसा नहीं होता कि conservative, बिल्कुल ही conservative वो निकल जाएंगे या फिर liberal आऐंगे वो दिने ही पूरी बदलते हैं. And so in that flipping I realized as I was looking at the entire ecosystem politically, social media के ऊपर, हर जगह के ऊपर, कि I think we're at the tail end of extremist polarized views. Okay. I think over the next five years, there's going to be a rise of, centrists as I would like to call myself. और यह वह लोग होंगे जो कि reasoning पर लेकर आऐंगे लोगों को. जो कि लोगों को यह कहेंगे कि यार we are all human beings and we are all inherently damaged. Right? And so one way or the other we have to be a bit more, humane with our judgment. And we have to, understand things better. Like, aggression से मस्लों को solve ना करो, understanding से मस्लों को solve करो. Yeah. एक एक नई किस्म की leadership emerge करेगी which will begin to unite people rather than divide people. अभी बहुत divisive politics खेली जा रही है पूरी दुनिया में. Enemies को identify करके वह तुम्हारा दुश्मन है तो तुम मेरी तरफ आओ वाली politics खेली जा रही है और push किया जाता है कि constantly pick a side otherwise you are irrelevant. Yeah. और हम देखते हैं कि जो sides लेने वाले लोग हैं उनकी following ज़्यादा है, उनकी viewership ज़्यादा है.

Yeah, of course because that makes it easier for people, right? It makes it easier for people today.

That's what I'm saying. मैं patient go ही कर रहा हूं कि आज से पांच साल बाद जो है ना ऐसे लोग जो कि sides ले रहे होंगे बहुत ज़्यादा या बहुत over overly critical होंगे या बहुत ज़्यादा खप वाले होंगे. जो जिसको मैं आजकल कहता हूं खप है यह.

Constantly by a proving yourself right. Yeah. But also it there is no room for growth then. Absolutely. Because you are not willing to grow, you know, by learning from the other side as well or just understanding कि यार growth किस तरह आती है? जब आप holistically चीज़ों को understand करते हो, जब आपने अपना दमाग बंद ही कर दिया कि इस side को तो समझना ही नहीं है and again आपने aggressive approach रखनी है, तो growth तो आपकी वहीं रुक गई ना? Growth आपकी वहीं रुक गई है. देखें society इस तरह आगे जा नहीं सकती. Why

are these polarized times important? Polarized times are important because they push the boundaries of all sides of thinking. Right? So, the the liberals will go into extremes and they will push the boundaries of what is potentially possible if we change the society. The conservatives will push the boundaries and they will try to give you a perfect image of all of the great things that are currently here in our society. Or have existed for the past however many years. But ना मैं दो ख्यालात हैं. दो क्या हज़ार ख्यालात हैं. आप, you will take the best things that you have or always have had. You will let go of the things that have historically brought you down. Yeah. So you will take certain values जो कि आपको liberal या progressive ideas दे रहे हैं और आप उनमें से certain values उठा लोगे और आप अपने conservative ideals में से certain values को continue करोगे क्योंकि वो एक institution है वो एक historical memory है और वो ideas इस वजह से exist करते हैं क्योंकि through generations, through highs and lows human kind has given you certain ideas. हाँ, सौ में से शायद बीस ideas ऐसे हों. अस्सी ideas शायद आपको let go करने हों. तो ये वो times होते हैं जब आपके पास वो सारे के सारे आपके आंखों के सामने आ जाते हैं. And then again like I said अब वो time आ गया अब wrap करने का time आया है. अब time आया है जब हम उन ideas, उन सारी discussion, उन सारी debates में

थी कि you are जो हमें हमेशा से life में मसला रहा है कि हमारे बड़े बूढ़ों ने भी चीज़ें question नहीं करने दी. तो जब आप एक चीज़ को label लगा देते हो या कहते हो कि यही सोचा और यही करना है, you are not opening space for questioning. When you are not opening that doors to questions, then you, there is no room for growth. Absolutely. Then it's like fixed, like यह से very fixate, fixed mindset versus growth mindset वाली बात है और like यह होता भी है कि this is actually like, see eventually it becomes an agenda and I will say this why, say why क्योंकि then you are, the reason that you take an aggressive approach or aggressive tone is out of fear because you don't want anything to, you know, sort of change the narrative at all. Are you scared कि इसको जो है वह जो हम propagate करना चाह रहे हैं. हां. ठीक है? तो fear डाल दो इस चीज़ के अंदर. हां. हम जो propagate करना चाह रहे हैं उसको. Basically again वही ना right and wrong आता है ना? हां. थोड़ा आप negative

वह कर रहे होते हो. Negative तरीके से आप दूसरे की चीज़ को side करना चाह रहे हो कि यार देखो ज़रा वह तो बुरी है, वह तो यह. दोनों sides ही कर रही होती हैं at the end of the day. And again, what the extreme sides do, I don't care much for that. What I do care about is that I don't, also don't have a problem with the fact that extreme sides exist because it is a very natural way of how things evolve. Yeah, That has to be part of the process. That has to be part of the process. For me objectively There is only one history and that is evolving continuously. Yeah. Right? And so as these people begin to change the way that they consume content and begin to get sick of being forced to take Yeah. They will eventually want to look up to people who are ready to open themselves up across the aisle, who are ready to be, to to have conversations in a more civil educated manner. I think we are now upgrading other society. It's a very important and very powerful time for us for Pakistan in particular क्योंकि जितना भी negativity and all of that on one side मेरा opinion यह है कि हमने हमने over the last few years we've made history. यह बड़ा important time होगा और यह quote किया जाएगा आने वाले वक्त के अंदर कि हमारी एक बड़ी population जिसमें again not to sound cliche but 60% under the age of 35, 49% between the age of 18 to 30. Most जिसे कहते है ना कि young age. हां मतलब ऐसी जो कि बड़े भी हो चुके है but वो impressionable age है और उस impressionable age में यानी कि आधी population इस मुल्क की एक एक बहुत turmoil वाले time में बड़ी हो रही है. ठीक है? वो बड़ी important चीज़ होती है क्योंकि they will have this memory for the rest of their life. And when they go and find a good time, they will stick to that good time because they will never want to go back to the turmoil that they have experienced growing up. So it's very important to understand that and because I started to understand that I was unfortunately उस पर हुआ यह कि वह थोड़ा trending हो गए. Top trend बना मैं Twitter के ऊपर ज़िंदगी में पहली दफा तो that was interesting. Bucket list. Have you trended on Twitter? Yes. Yes, now I have. I was on national news multiple times. Yeah, this past year. I mean it's been fascinating but to be very honest I think I was just a little earlier क्योंकि मेरा सोच यह थी कि मैं जाकर आप क्योंकि हम नई age के जो audience है ना उसके लिए हम वह influencers हैं. जो कि आज से पहले आपके cricketers होते थे, जो कि आज से पहले आपकी media personalities होती थी, celebrities होते थे. आज का modern day का influencer या आज का modern day का जो है ना वो बड़ा भाई जो है आपका वो आपका youtuber है. You know. वह आप content creator है. वह वह बंदा है जो कि आपसे आकर बड़ा आपके level पर बात करता है. And so I thought it's very very important that we begin to to put out that value where we can go out there and have conversations with people we agree or disagree with. But have them in a polite manner and have them in a way that again brings people together rather than divides them. Unfortunately it wasn't taken immediately wasn't taken as the way that मैंने आपको बताया कि आने वाले वक़्त में वह होगा. You know appreciate किया उस चीज़ को. आने वाले मक्तों में आपके message भी उसी site पर होंगे. So I think कि ज़ाहिर है जब भी एक एक एक change आ रहा होता है तो it creates noise. And that noise was there last couple of months. So that was, was unfortunate as well to be honest. There was a lot happening. My cousin had passed away and उसी के साथ one after the other these things were happening. Yeah.

But यह क्या है यह चोरिल चल रहा है और phone में यह सब हट रहा है and it was very very weird time. It was a weird time and and

I think the only issue that I had with the entire thing was that I was being misunderstood continuously. Yeah. It's such a bad feeling. हां, that's that's not a good feeling. कि मैं बात ही कुछ और कर रहा हूं और मुझे मेरा मज़ाक सुनता हूं मैं, अपने आप को बेहतर करता हूं. But एक चीज़ है जो आपने की नहीं है. उस पर आपको अगर criticize किया जा रहा है या आपको उस पर वह क्या है? But you know how I started to look at it?

I started to look at it in a way that just to, you know, make yourself feel better in times like this is to let these people know and let them feel कि यार if you are commenting on something, know, आपको पूरी बात ही नहीं पता और उस पर आपके comment आकर कह रहे हो. Do you know how that makes you look? Yeah, yeah. Because your comment is ignorant, like you look stupid. When you go out there and talk about something without even understanding it completely, so the person who actually knows the truth will think how dumb, how stupid because that's not even the truth, right? Yeah. So like I want people to really understand this कि when they are going around commenting or saying something, शायद वह उनकी ego के लिए बहुत ज़बरदस्त उनको feel होता होगा but it actually makes you look quite stupid because.

Yeah, because आपको again like I said ना हम यह internet का time था जब हमने चार चीज़ें पढ़ी और हम एकदम से emotional होना शुरू हो गया उसके बारे में. No, but the thing is that these

जो चुकलिक बेटी चीज़ें होती हैं या जुस्तना की चीज़ें होती हैं. I want people to understand that don't let these things treat you like sheep because that's what they are doing. Yeah. They are saying कि यार लोग तो बेवकूफ है. हां. People are sheep. Feed them anything in a small little package and they will start thinking and believing it. Yeah. So I want people to come out of that.

They will realize it question and be like, I'm not. Know, कह रहा ना देखिए internet की age के अंदर आपके पास छोटी छोटी चीज़ें थी उसके ऊपर आप emotional हो जाते थे. As time went on we have to learn to understand that आपके साथ खेला जा रहा है. आजकल के time पर आपके phone के ऊपर आपके पास opportunity है कि आप हर चीज़ को verify कर सकते हैं. आप हर चीज़ को check कर सकते हैं. तो वह अगर उसको आप ना करें तो that's obviously.

Yeah and why should you give you know this internet the power to treat you like sheep? Yeah. Like, yeah. Take

control. So so obviously, but again देखिए, like I mentioned, more and more people are beginning to understand that now. Yeah. Like you said कि we are heading towards that. मैं उनको ना दस दफा बोल दूं कि यार आप क्या कर रहे हैं? पागल हैं? चीज़ों को समझना शुरू करें. मैं दस दफा बोल दूं. मैंने इसलिए respond नहीं किया किसी चीज़ को. क्योंकि मेरे बोलने से कुछ नहीं होगा. Yeah, it's a it's a process. You can shame anyone to begin to start. That was a lie. Yeah. और हमारी अपनी सबकी evolution ऐसी हुई है. Yeah. हम जब early days के अंदर हम click बैठे बहुत we used to stumble upon it अल्लाह. यार early days के ऊपर तो यार आपको याद होगा. छोटे छोटे होते थे but वह होता था ऊपर. तो उनका भी एक evolutionary curve है वह भी चल रहे हैं with enough time on the internet when they have been, वह तो ना fool me once, पता नहीं it's your fault, fool me twice, that's my fault वाली बात है. तो eventually you are fooled enough times.

Sir but that's exactly what I am trying to say here that people need to like now start thinking and realizing this that don't let, you know, people tell you certain narratives or certain agendas or certain things like go out and look for the knowledge yourself. Yeah. The truth yourself कि what is real and what is not? Because I feel like with the AI and metaverse and all these things happening, it's going to get so much more complicated. Yeah. To, differentiate between, like, the reality and what's

not the What's not the reality? Absolutely. So yeah, I mean वह तो खैर definitely वह होगा and there's definitely an entire episode that we can do on one at is episode. But

I'm just saying that we're, like you're saying ना कि लोग समझना शुरू हो जाएंगे. But the thing is that we are going one step ahead also, right? Like लोग तो अभी तक clickbaits में ही चल रहे हैं. और हम एक और advance level पर जा रहे हैं, right? So,

that's what I'm saying. You're creating That's what I'm saying ना कि देखिए वह advance level पर आप चले जाएं. होगा क्या? होगा यह कि आज शायद जो चीज़ आप reality समझते थे कल आपकी कुछ भी reality नहीं होगी and you will begin to realize that very very quickly. So that's what I am saying. So वह accelerate करेगा. वह accelerate करेगा. हां, सुनिए. People's realization of of of the fact that don't believe everything on the internet is going to accelerate. Right, so उससे acceleration ही होगी of this entire evolution. The entire evolution and so anyway, so basically हम क्योंकि I think we are going towards a more center centrist time तो जिसकी वजह से I wanted to begin to reach out. I think I was a little early but I will definitely continue to do that in the coming months and the coming episodes. क्योंकि I want to learn. I want to learn like I said कि there will be certain people who will now begin to make sense out of what value the conservatives have to offer and what value the progressives have to offer and what value the left and the right have to offer and then begin to make sense of a way forward.

Otherwise we are just gonna be stuck in our spaces and like yeah.

Yeah. So that's what happened. It was an interesting time. और फिर उसमें यह था कि ज़ाहिर है कि because a lot of that was happening तो बहुत noisy हो गया था environment मेरे लिए. And then as we ended the season late December तो वह जो है we we we sort of I I decided कि यार मैंने ज़रा break लेनी है और मैंने ज़रा सोचना है कि मैं क्या कर रहा हूं और मैं क्यों कर रहा हूं और मैं उसके उसको किस तरह से बेहतर तरीके से कर सकता हूं. So I took the break on I think December 27 को हमारी आख़िरी episode आई थी. Took a couple of months off and now we're starting.

So in this time that you took off, what did you do? What did you think? And yeah, क्या था उस break में आपके लिए? So

ज़ाहिर है कि पहली दफ़ा क्योंकि जब मैं यह सारा कर रहा था last year was just all over the place, right? Conversations happening on a daily and it takes a toll on you. अगर आप actively sun रहे हो और actually actively सीख रहे हो तो आपका दिमाग में ज़्यादा जगह रहती ही नहीं है. Yeah. तो as as I took the break पहला तो यह कि मैंने rest किया. सच्ची बात है couple of weeks but also I again zoomed out zoomed out a little bit और मैंने analyze किया कि मैं क्या conversations करना चाहता हूं, किन areas में जाना चाहता हूं, क्या सीखना चाहता हूं और ज़्यादा मैंने actually क्योंकि we are also in a very weird and evolving time

where things are rapidly changing. Very very very clear. And there is a consistent I think sense of uncertainty all the time. All the time. हर

व्यक्ति एक uncertainty वाली feeling आ रही होती है अमन. कि बस कर रहे हैं, पता नहीं क्यों कर रहे हैं, कैसे कर रहे हैं, क्या होगा, होगा नहीं होगा. And I am someone जो कि you know because I like I love data. So I am very very big on trying to project and predict and understand कि यह मैं कर रहा हूं और यह आने वाले वक़्त में इस तरह से करेगा. तो मेरे लिए वह और ज़्यादा मुश्किल हो रहा था. सच्ची बात है. And so I spent this time trying to read up on a lot of what's going on globally and locally, and then to try to make sense of आने वाले वक़्त में क्या होगा? Make sense of the world, yeah. Yeah. And and and based on the the information that I gathered and the analysis, अभी भी मैं कहूंगा rudimentary है, it's going to get better over time but जो analysis मेरा है उसके हिसाब से then I was able to make the decisions that we eventually made for season four and for my personal and professional life.

तो yeah, that's what I did. Ok. So let's talk about that then. लेकिन पहले यह बताएं कि the elephant in the room is this room. Why did you, how did you change this set? It's very interesting. It has a particular vibe and feeling. आपके पीछे एक

कोई मेरी आवाज़ है. मेरे पीछे एक lighthouse है. Lighthouse ही है ना? Lighthouse ही है. हाँ, ship है like क्या thoughts है? बच्चे बात हो जाए तो हमारा हर season के बाद studio upgrade होता है. This was the biggest upgrade up until now is costing. It's quite beautiful by the way. Yeah अच्छा. It's very pretty. Don't know cameras में कैसा आता है but overall भी it's very pretty. हां, which we went all out with this one. Normally हमारा एक studio studio होता था और sideएं जो है वह ऐसे खाली होती थी. इस बार हमने पूरा room design किया हुआ है. I think वह वाला part तो आ भी नहीं रहा in the frame. यह वाला part रहा है. So you can see all of that. Then you can see up until over here. But with or without the cameras now this is a complete room. Right? And thought उसमें यह थी कि एक तो यह कि I'm big on aquatic life, marine life and वह सारा सारा. But largely और और जो lighthouse भी है in a way मैंने अपने ऊपर reflect किया कि theme मैं किस तरह से इस बार थोड़ा design करूं. The lighthouse has been a consistent theme in my life. From Lol Studios उसका logo light lighthouse का था. And then TBT को भी हमने फिर eventually lighthouse दिया था which in itself is is you know nautical in a way. So so हमने यह decide कर लिया कि हमारी जो theme है वह marine and and nautical होगी. जिसकी वजह से the blue that you see this is the ocean blue. Yeah. That's there and then उसकी एक lighthouse और ocean की एक major thought process उसके पीछे यह था कि I've I've always believed कि कि hope is is is a very powerful survival mechanism, right? और जब यह एक समंदर में आप अगर lost होते हैं for the longest time और उसके अंदर जो है वह आप you know अगर बहुत सारे दिनों के लिए आप lost हो तो you will lose the will to even fight to survive. But the minute you see a lighthouse you know this that that feeling that you get and and and that light that the power of a lighthouse is in a way हमारे लिए what what we're trying to do is we're trying to give hope to people by showing them knowledge as a way to improve their lives.

तो एक तो यह thought थी. Interesting analogy. Like अगर मैं एक ocean में हूं और मैं अब bus के वाप करके डूबने वाली हूं और मुझे lighthouse लगाता है तो then I will suddenly have the energy and strengthen me to me. Swim towards it. You know? Yeah.

And

you will fight to survive. Yeah. Even if I was literally like

dying, like dying that. I mean imagine you're you're you're 500 feet from the land. You don't know the land is there and you're tired and you've been at it for days. It's too sad, right? क्योंकि आप उस time में छोड़ दोगे और आप मर जाओगे और पता चला कि या तो पांच सौ meter दूर तो एक land था और अगर आप थोड़ा सा और effort डाल लेते तो आप पहुंच जाते. A lighthouse desert for you, right? It tells you कि, you know, land is right there. And so similarly ocean जो है वह एक एक एक बड़ी मज़दारिक fact है कि 90% of the worlds ocean the human kind has not even touched. They don't even know what's there. हम मरीज़ पर जाने की कोशिश कर रहे हैं, हमें oceans का नहीं पता. हां. And that's I think modern day humans as a whole. I believe के we are very arrogant कि हमें लगता हमने सब पता है, हमने सारे answers ले लिए हैं. बार बार हमेशा वह kruger's curve की बात करता हूं कि a lot of us are stuck at the mount of stupidity where we have the confidence कि बस यह हमें सब समझ आ गई है. We have the answer to everything. When in actuality we don't know anything, right? And and the ocean I think I feel like represents that that uncertainty, that lack of, that chaos. जो क्या portion में मिलता है ना जो कुछ भी है, घर तरफ़ से जा रहा है, तूफान आया हुआ है. ज़िंदगी भी ऐसी ही है, सच्ची बात है. We try to make sense of it, sure. But but I have to tone down that arrogance and have to be a bit more humble in our search for knowledge and our search for growth. So that's why the ocean is there. I know a lot of people can't see it on this wall. We'll we'll add some clips, जवाबद भाई, you can do that. We have three maps that I chose. So the first one is the geological structure of the globe in 1850 which is basically the entire world and उसमें हमने geological structure इस वजह से उसमें choose किया था because there was a lot of interesting insight there कि eighteen fifty में दुनिया how did people understand the world. So none of the पाकिस्तानी Mountains are are here, because they were discovered effectively much later because वह accessibly नहीं थी up until that time. So, the map doesn't have that it was basically published in Edinburgh in 1850 और उसमें फिर वो हमने जो authors हैं और ये by the way उस time के ऊपर because these were all hand, hand drawn maps. So ये authentic जो hand drawn map है ये वो वाला. हाँ cool. इधर लगा हुआ है. तो इसके पीछे क्या thought है? We just wanted to get so एक तो we wanted to get the entire globe and and have an understanding of कि eighteen fifty का कि दुनिया कैसी थी और जब आप उसको देखते हैं ना पुराने वक्त के maps आपको बहुत interesting चीज़ें सिखाते हैं. Yeah actually they kind of in a way depict the level Yes of they tell you what's going on. Oh my god how interesting. हां. And it's unbiased. There is nobody telling you what is the what So, जो historical आप कोई novel झावल पढ़ते हैं तो वह आप उस बंदे की सोच से कर रहे होते हैं. इस पर human knowledge depict की हुई है उस time के ऊपर as they as it was. And so एक हमारा यह map है. दूसरा फिर हमारा है जिस जो कि आपने देखा होगा French में लिखा है वैले AC salon, les mémoires, les plus nubous. It's Asia according to the It newest is authored by Jean Baptiste and Cornell. दूसरा मुझे नज़र नहीं आ रहा in Paris in 1690. Again it's hand drawn and आपको नज़र आ रहा होगा इसमें इन्होंने highlight किया हुआ है boundaries को तो यह मेरी बड़ा interesting था. 1690 I chose because this was the year. इस पर लिखा हुआ होगा grand मोगल अगर आप देखें. यह basically वह साल है जिसमें कहां लिखा हुआ है? जो subcontinent है ना उसके ऊपर grand मोगल empire लिखा हुआ है. हां. So यह पूरा Asia का map है और एक हमने global लिया है, एक हमने Asia का लिया है. यह Asia का वह time है जब औरंगज़ेब used to rule the मोगल empire and if you can see from Persia down all the way to Myanmar this was the largest that the मोगल empire ever was controlled the entirety of subcontinent and as a matter of fact was 35% of the global GDP at the time. Oh my god. And so so for me it's very interesting कि the the the subcontinent which today has less than 3% or 4% of the global GDP was at a at a time what four five hundred years ago less than five hundred years ago was one third of the entire globe's GDP. So can you imagine how Yes. Things That's called a rise and fall. That's a rise and fall. And then subsequent I hope the rise in the coming years as well again. And then we have a map of हिंदुस्तान. Liza's William home and Liza's Daniel ने यह अपने हाथ से बनाया था. Edinburgh में अठारह सौ अठारह में publish हुआ इसमें कराची है ही नहीं. Pakistan सबसे बड़ा शहर जो कि almost if I am not wrong is almost sixty percent fifty or 60% of the GDP of Pakistan is कराची. And and and that city is not there because कराची did not exist effectively as a city back in those days. इसमें आपको डेरा इस्माल खान मिलेगा, इसमें आपको मुल्तान मिलेगा, इसमें आपको डेरा गाज़ी खान मिलेगा, इसमें आपको लाहौर मिलेगा. Yeah yeah, these are old cities हैं यार. These are old cities हैं. अच्छा कराची भी उस time पर था it was a fisher town. But what you can begin to identify is कि जब line जब नक्शे खेचे जाते हैं जब structures change होते हैं इलाकाओं के जब कुछ certain global क्या कहलाती है जो world order है वह change होता है in the next decade over the next ten years there are going to be certain things that we are to talk about later and those things are going to change the way that this country functions, that this region functions, that the global economy functions and जो आज के लोग हैं जो कि अपने दिमाग बनाकर बैठे हैं कि हम तो ऐसे थे, तो ऐसे हैं, तो ऐसे रहेंगे तो, you know, for good or for bad, for positive or for negative. The changing times are going to change completely, radically change the reality as we know it. And so these maps remind us of how in the past similar things have happened. On your on your back there is a screen जो कि generally उसमें तीन चार different videos हैं जो हम play करना चाहते हैं. We wanted to subtle तरीके से we wanted कि हमारा जो branding है lighthouse की वह लोगों तक पहुंचे. तो वह हमने वहां पर एक रखी हुई है उसमें यह कुछ videos हैं of the दरिया and the lighthouse जो कि sorry समंदर and the lighthouse जो कि different different approaches में चलेंगी. मेरा सबसे favorite feature जो है वह obviously सबसे जो expensive item है इस company के अंदर वह यह aquarium है which is a saltwater aquarium and even though अभी यह नया नया बनाए तो इसमें थोड़ी सी मछलियां है. 're going to be adding certain more fish here with particularly clown and the yellow tangs and we're going to be adding a lot of corals here as well. But इसको लगाने का एक major मकसद जो था वह यह था कि मैं इस set के अंदर ना मैं कुछ I wanted to to to add something that would show the evolutionary nature of the world. And the beauty of this is that as the season progresses over the next ten months and hopefully this this is going to stay even in the future seasons as well. This tank is going to undergo a lot of changes and in a very subtle way. People are going to see कि यार मछलियां add हो रही हैं, आ गए हैं, छोटे छोटे corals आ गए हैं वह बड़े होना शुरू हो गए हैं. कभी इसमें बीमारी आ जाएगी. कभी इसमें problem होती है. हमारी ज़िंदगियों में भी इतना problems होती हैं. तो in a very subtle way I wanted कि guest के पीछे जो है ना वह हर episode में आपको एक different form of एक, एक, एक sort of living form of background हो. एक evolution नज़र आया एक evolution नज़र आया आपको. Oh my god, आपको like growth. Growth नज़र आए. बिल्कुल.

There was also another aspect to this.

What was that?

Maybe, खैर, उस पर बाद में आते हैं but हां, yeah. So, so I mean, so that's there.

बाकी हां, I mean it's a, it's a, I love the set. Have What about the the yours, your office, your desk? So, यह desk जो है इसके साथ यह coat hanger है. यह भी मेरा बड़ा पसंदीदा Yes. Yeah. And then there's a study desk over there जो कि apparently पता नहीं कौन सी लकड़ थी यह?

शीशम. शीशम

का बना हुआ है यह तो बड़ा महंगा था but. हां, शीशम is very like high and woods

after दियार. हां. शायद beach में भी कोई और आती होगी but दियार से ही हां, दियार से ही थी. I think शीशम ही था. No, शीशम is also very high end. हां. और,

but खैर यह, that's the set and that's the thought behind the new set.

Beautiful set. Thank you, thank you so much. Very proud of you. Who made the set? So

so we had a designer, we hired a designer who who's called Aiz रज़ा who's also happens to be Hamna's brother. Yeah. And he did a stellar job with it. Like, मैंने I gave him complete. मैंने उनको thoughts बताई थी कि मैंने आपको thoughts बताई हैं and then he just came up with all of this. Props to him for doing such a great job. Yeah.

Ok, so आपने बोला कि आपने अपनी break वाले time में यह सारी चीज़ें जो हैं बहुत सारी सोची. Right. Thoughts आई बहुत सारी. तो उनको उनको मैं understand करना चाह रही हूं. अभी हमने set के पीछे जो सारी theme थी वो समझी है क्यों आपने nautical theme की, उसका background क्या है? How is that relevant to your next season? Right. Like thoughts बहुत अच्छी है but वो next season में कैसे उनकी relevance होती है? What does that have to do with you right now? The world right now? Pakistan right now?

Wherever you want to start from? So let's zoom out a bit and let's talk a little bit about Pakistan क्योंकि आजकल जो है economic crisis हमारे सर पर है और everybody is anxious about it और मैंने पिछले दिनों में किसके ऊपर story भी की थी Instagram के ऊपर and people were very appreciative कि यार का चलो कोई बात कर रहे हैं. देखें अभी आज यह मेरा ख़याल है पंद्रह तारीख़ को यह episode live जाएगी. तो let's hope कि उस वक़्त तक IMF की एक deal हो चुकी हो जो कि जब हम यह record कर रहे हैं तो अभी तक deal नहीं हुई. And the entire Pakistan is right now debating about कि you know IMF की deal हो जाए तो हम safe हो जाएंगे और IMF की deal नहीं हुई तो हम default कर जाएंगे. The fact is कि जब मैंने you know throughout the seasons past few seasons we've we've had these discussions about with different business leaders and economists and policy makers and एक चीज़ बड़ी clearly सामने आई है और वह यह सामने आई है कि Pakistan की जो economy है ना the way that वह जो structurally चलती है वह structure ही ख़राब है और उसमें अगर हम उसको समझने की कोशिश करें तो वह यह है कि उस structure के अंदर हम एक ऐसी economy है जो कि and from top to bottom like हम यह नहीं कि वह तबका है ऐसा भाई हमारा हर बंदा ऐसा है. हमारा बंदा सिर्फ services करना जानता है. वह कोई production manufacturing उसने ना कभी सीखी ना वह कभी even सीखना चाहता है for some reason. You know they are really bad at it which is why you know आप plotten बेच दोगे. आप दुनिया की हर चीज़ बेच दोगे. आप कुछ चीज़ बेचनी है. बिकवानी होना तो पाकिस्तानी बेहतरीन है उस काम के लिए. But actual में कुछ बनाना कुछ करना is very difficult. क्योंकि बहुत सारे उसके वजह हाथ हैं but this way the society was structured for most part. Was like that मैं आता हूं उसके ऊपर भी थोड़ा सा. And जब आप की society import led होती है तो ज़ाहिर है आपका import bill ज़्यादा होता है. आपको कुछ चीज़ें चाहिए आज आप जो है वह आप दुनिया बड़ी हो गई है आपके पास Instagram आ गया है आपको आ गया कि fancy चीज़ें होती क्या है? तो आप fancy चीज़ें जो है ना everybody wants a fancy thing. Yeah. But you are not producing there is no productivity जिसके evers आप उन fancy चीज़ों को लोगे. Right? तो जिसके ऊपर जो यह बड़ी cliché बात हो चुकी है आपके current account deficit ज़्यादा है. आप export काम कर रहे हैं. आप import ज़्यादा कर रहे हैं. जिसकी वजह से हर साल आपको अपना current account deficit को कर्जा लेकर पूरा करना होता है. Yeah. अब historically हम एक bomb bust cycle में जाते रहे हैं जिसमें हम जो है वह कर्जा लेते हैं और कर्जा लेकर हम जो है जी अपने लोगों के शौक पूरे करते हैं और उसके बाद हम default करने लगते हैं. तो default जैसे करने लगते हैं तो हमें कोई आकर बचा लेते थी. अच्छा. जो कि European marshal plan की तरह की aid थी जिसमें आपका dams वन रहे थे, आपका infrastructure वन रहा था. और हमने उस aid को लेकर हमने unfortunately जंग हो गई उस time के ऊपर and the Americans got upset and they said कि you know we are not going to stop stop giving you economic hate. और जो sixties, sixties का एक बड़ा अच्छा time था जिसमें हमें लगा कि यार हम तो बड़े fit हैं. वो actually आपको dollars आ रहे थे बाहर से और उन dollars की वजह से आपने जो गिनी चुनी आपने infrastructure projects आपने करने थे वो आपने कर ली. उसके बाद seventies में आप फिर उसी में चले गए वह socialist style कि यार हर चीज़ को हम subsidize करेंगे private enterprise को आपने तबाह कर दिया और आपने कहा जी government आ के जो है ना सस्ती सस्ता अनाथ, सस्ता यह, सस्ता वह सबके लिए सस्ती चीज़ें आएंगी. Industrialize करते हैं अपने आप को लेकिन आपने नहीं किया. आप देखें जैसे ही वो age खत्म हुई in the late eighties, nineties आए फिर exactly वह ही. Political turmoil not withstanding exactly same चीज़ कि आपका by the nine by 1999, 9098 and 1999 आप bankruptcy bankruptcy की तरफ जा रहे थे. अच्छा इसमें आप बहुत सारे लोग बोलेंगे कि नहीं चीज़ें क्यों उस वक्त इस हाक डार सापते उन्होंने गलत policies की. Political problem यार होगी political problem. Politics more often than not is drive drive by driven by sorry is driven by public sentiment. लोग कहते है ना यह आखिरी साल में आकर बुरे फ़ैसले कर लेते हैं क्योंकि इसको vote चाहिए तो भाई वह democrat है वह votes के लिए आता है. That means the voter doesn't demand better things. That means that if the democrat is saying कि यार वह votes के लिए यह कर रहा तो वह सही कर रहा है. That means that he is actually coming to power through the votes.

Yeah, so you see what people want and expect. Yes,

so if the people don't want better things and if they are compelling the politician to take wrong decisions, then go and educate the people. Then there is something wrong with your media, there is something wrong with your there is something wrong with your activist. But it is the people by and large who have expected the wrong things of the cover. Right. जब, जब आपके politicians और leaders को नज़र आया कि लोगों को तो यह चाहिए तो वह देंगे. Exactly. क्योंकि उनको तो vote मिलता उस समय. Exactly. So late nineties के अंदर आपके पास फिर से वही था. आप bankrupt Economy को आपने उस तरह से नहीं किया. आपने उसमें बड़े सारे mistakes की, CNG खोल दी गई. आपके पास limited resource थी. आप gas को इस्तेमाल करते for industrialization. आप उसको use करते for सस्ती बिजली और सस्ती energy for industries. ये होना चाहिए या मुझे जो है वो मेरी factory को CNG मिलनी चाहिए ताकि वो सस्ती energy use करके सस्ता माल बनाए ताकि वो सस्ता माल जो है वो export करे और competitive वो versus the other countries. So ये हुआ फिर 2,000 जब आए तो उसके बाद फिर again हम bankruptcy की तरफ थे फिर हम IMF in and out. हर government आई IMF, IMF, IMF जो last government थी PMLN की उस time के ऊपर हमें एक upside हमारी यह थी कि हमारे पास CPAC का किमाद में बहुत सारा पैसा वहां से आया. उसमें जो एक major again हमने ग़लती की कि जी हमने dollar को control रखा और हम consumption बचा रहे थे ना. हमारा export uncompetitive हो रहा था. हम dollar और अब आपके पास आप देख ले आपके साथ. नहीं है. अब इस वक्त situation यह है कि you are going to the IMF simply because of the fact that your macroeconomic structures are messed up. There is no way out for you and the fact is कि आपके पास आ जाइए मैं फा भी जाइए ना मैं आपको बता रहा हूं आपका सिर्फ छह महीने delay होगा. मैं exactly यह कहने लगी थी कि you are in under so much debt that you are going to get what a grace period of three four months. See exactly. यार. दो options हैं आप अगर I want यही repeat हो जाएगा ना? Deplete हो जाएगा. The only way you will not default over the next six months is अगर आप massive किस्म के reforms लेकर आएं. और वो reforms इतने ज़्यादा damaging होंगे कि आपके लोगों की चीखें निकल आएंगी. तो वह किस तरह से होगा? अच्छा उसके बाद फिर आपका जो है ना आपकी जो government चल रही है इस time के ऊपर आपकी government जो है वह almost आप नौ हज़ार अरब का आपका budget होता है जो कि आपका cost है of running the government. छह हज़ार अरब रुपया अपने taxes से collect करते हैं. आज तक कौम tax नहीं देना चाहती. आप Agri के ऊपर tax लगाते हो कौम कहती है जी खाना महंगा हो जाएगा. आपका जो भी यह problem है. It's a huge paradox in it sir. It's a paradox. आप जिस वक्त बिजली Agri के ऊपर tax लगाते हो Agri वाला आपको आकर blackmail करता है कहता जी You have to have a sustainable way to run it. Yeah. Do something. Either cut the size of the government. You do not need tens of different ministries and then thousands, tens of thousands of government people doing absolutely nothing. Do not need PIA doing, आपको पता last year PIA ने 90,000,000,000 rupees का loss किया है, 90,000,000,000 rupees का loss किया Oh my god, 90,000,000,000 alone PIA? For what reason? Why am I? Why is people's tax money? People's tax money मैं बोल देता हूं. My tax money नहीं बोलता. Why is people's tax money going to subsidize a white elephant जिसकी कोई logic नहीं है. You are at the crossroads. You don't need that. आपके private sector organization चार जहाज की airlines चल रही हैं. You don't need PIA. Yeah. With or without PIA irrespective it's going to run. Every route that PIA is going to there is another airline going there as well. Yeah yeah yeah. So, उसको बंद करें use that money somewhere else. Use that money somewhere else? Use that money somewhere else? Stop losing that money. 90,000,000,000 you're taking out of loans. You're taking loans. True, yeah. To what end? Yeah. Right? So, so the government needs to be cut and these are radical reforms. Like आप कह रहे कि यार one third the size of the government needs to cut off. You need to privatize a lot of these PIA and steel में. Steel में नौ साल से बंद पड़ी है उनके employees होते हैं खाई जा रही हैं. What? हां जी, क्यों? उसको privatize करें मुल्क में steel तो बनना शुरू हो यार. You are paying money for zero productivity.

That's a recipe for disaster. Yeah-yeah-yeah. That is like basics of economics not making sense anymore. हां, I

can talk a lot about a lot of these things and and and we are going to do a lot of podcasts to understand more of these things. A lot of this that I am saying has been from podcasts as well. But the the the summary for this is that this is अब हुआ यह है कि हम इस बार हम गए और हमने जाकर हमेशा की तरह हम Americans के पास गए और हम Saudis के पास गए और हम UAE गए और हम China गए और हमें किसी ने bailout नहीं किया. Even Saudi foreign minister you know our chief minister was there and then a week later he was this is a Saudi finance minister went to world economic forum and he publicly stated that we are not going to give free handouts anymore. We are going to now give loans और aid in कि इस इस condition के साथ क्या आप अपनी economies reform करेंगे? And so that was a very clear message कि we are we done with जो आप लोगों की bad habits है उनको हम subsidize नहीं कर सकते मज़ीद. So we are now at a time where Pakistan whether it likes it or not, whether the public wants it or not, whether the politician wants it or not, आप इसको जिस तरह से play कर लें, Pakistan needs to reform. Yeah. One way or the other. And reform is painful. And reform is painful. Yeah. For everyone, for everyone. From top to bottom. इसमें कोई लोग कह रहे ना कि ओ यार अमीर आदमी तो निकल जाएगा. वही है sir सब मार खाएंगे. मैं आपको आज बता रहा हूं सब मार यह बहुत troubling time है. Short term outlook is very very troubling for Pakistan and and it's a scary thing. But this is what gives me the most hope as well. Because without this moment we can never actualize the dream of Pakistan that we want to achieve. Right? Without the pinch that we are about to experience. हां वह एक soft landing हो सकती थी. वह एक बेहतर तरीके से manage हो सकता था. That is politics sure. I don't want to comment on that. नहीं हुआ जो भी है but the fact is कि अब अब वह like it or not वह reforms आने आने. अच्छा what is what should the like average person do in this case? Like how

are people supposed to not just like help themselves but help this situation for the country. देखिए इस बारे Like ऐसा I would say कि may be you know जो लोग जिनके पास वह capacity है, वह privilege है, वह पैसा है,

वह resources हैं, वह export industries में. नहीं, यह जिसके पास पैसा privilege नहीं है. मैं आपको एक बात बताता हूं. यह, that's what I am saying. Nations की, आप China जाए ना. China nineties के बाद पूरी com export कर रही थी. It was not about कि यार China ने very recently COVID के time के ऊपर अपना पूरा economy का रुख change किया और उन्होंने अपनी local consumption बढ़ाई क्योंकि उनको नज़र आ गया था कि export से आपकी जो है ना वह अब हमारी economy जिस तरह grow कर रही थी वह नहीं grow कर पाएगी. तो हमें अपने local लोगों को local consumption बढ़ानी है ताकि economy का पैया चलता रहे. This is not going to be about privilege or anything of that sort. आने वाले वक्त में every member of the society needs to realign themselves towards export. What do I mean by that? Yeah. I don't expect that every person is an exporter. Yeah. What I expect is that every person is connected to an industry that is Exporting. That is exporting. Yeah, makes sense. Right? So, वह कड़ी होती है. Industry हमेशा एक बहुत बड़ी web की तरह चलती है. आज हमारा पूरा का पूरा web जो है ना वह import पर connected है. वह आज साफ़ सी बात है एक average बच्चा है वह बैठकर इधर उर्दू बादार से माल ख़रीदता है जाकर उसको बनाकर बेच देता है. वह कहता यार मैं तो import नहीं करता, मैं तो importer नहीं हूं. लेकिन उसके पीछे जो माल आ रहा वह सारा import है. Imported है ना? Yeah yeah. So-so वह भी import से ही connected है at the end of the day. What people need to begin to do is they need to globalize themselves. They need to understand where the world is going. They need to become a player in the global picture. In the global picture, in the global market place. Yeah, because आपने तो किसी और के हक का पैसा मारा जा रहा है तो आप उस point पर line में आगे आ गई है कि वह जो limited amount of products हैं वह products अब आप Basically के बारे this is only a certain amount of money that is rotating in the society. Increase नहीं होगा just because आपने अपनी आपने हालात बदलने हैं तो आपने उस पचास के number को change करना है. Yeah. उस पचास के number को पांच सौ पर लेकर जाना है. Mhmm. उसको करने का वाहिद हल ही है कि आपने dollar base पर जाना है. यह basic एक basic basic basic असूल है. So this is like IT industry and freelancers और यह वाली जो Absolutely. Anything everything freelancers services में Amazon में जो काम कर रहा है बेहतरीन है. वह दो सौ dollar कमा रहे हैं वह बेहतरीन है. वह Pakistan के लिए ज़्यादा he is doing more for the nation than anyone else जो कि local industry में बेटा काम कर रहा Yeah because you are bringing that country into हां एक छोटी सी मिसाल देता हूं लोगों को समझाने के लिए. एक घर है ठीक है अब उस घर के अंदर ना जो घर वाले हैं सारे के सारे वो सुबह से शाम तक ना कोई जो है वो सोफे ठीक करता रहता है, कोई कपड़े धोता रहता है, कौम को घर से बाहर निकलना है और जाकर double OT, जाकर नौकरियां करनी है ताकि रात को double OT आए. Double OT लेकर आए हां. ठीक है, आप local में बैठकर कपड़े धो लें, dusting कर लें, जो भी Excellent कर analogy. Very easy to understand for anyone. So we need to get out of Pakistan. We need to go and understand what's happening outside of Pakistan. We need to understand the industries. We need to understand the growth कहां पर हो रही है? We need to understand the way that these people talk. What they are interested in, how they think.

Learn from them. Learn from them. Yeah, like you would say, like people would say कि यह यहां का brain drain हो रहा है. In fact आप जाएं और उनका brain drain उनका brain drain करें. Exactly और इस वजह से बाहर के लोग भी बाहर के पाक्षतारी पहुंचा रहे बैठे में.

वो भी सीखे समझे. यह जो brain drainer I don't agree with it. You have a huge population that is studying right now that is jobless. Yeah. ठीक है? Yeah, yeah. They require opportunities. Yeah. So anyone who can go out anywhere from an IT services professional and a doctor earning a lot of money to a taxi driver. Yeah, make the dollars हां, send पच्चीस हज़ार रुपए की नौकरी यहां पर driver से बेहतर के वहां जाकर आप जाकर दस बारह हज़ार धर्म कमाएं और दस बारह हज़ार रियाल कमाएं and so on and so forth. Yeah. तो एक तो वह dollars कमाएं, बीस megawatt का solar का एक contract आया है Saudi Arab Saudi Arab dollar लगना है अगले दस अगले सात साल के अंदर दो हज़ार तीस तक. Saudi Arab is going to be a third largest stock market in the world by 2030.

People in Pakistan have no idea. Yeah, ignore कर रहे हैं उस Ignore कर रहे हैं. जबकि वो आपके लिए ripe है to come and reap. Yes. Right?

Yeah. There is going to be an exodus. There is a huge पाक्षतानी diaspora over there. You just have to go and start building the network and the connections. Yeah. आपको पता है कि के सऊदी sorry Europe and America and Japan have an aging population over the next couple of decades. They are going to they are going to have a lot of retired people and not a lot of productive people. Yes. Need to to

They need to training that talent that they can go there. Yeah, so यहां पर इसका like लोगों की mentality इतना होती है ना कि तुम वहां पर जाकर क्यों अपना talent और service दे रहे People are not understanding कि देना है निकलो, service दो,

provide that outside of this country and in turn get the money. Exactly. Yeah. And then एक तो यह aspect है. दूसरा यह है कि फिर आप जाएं और जाकर देखें contracts करें वहां से जिसमें आपके industry की भी काम होंगे, manufacturing भी होगी. Eventually manufacturing देखिए यह बात बड़ी simple सी है. इस season में मैं कोशिश कर रहा हूं कि मैं उनको लेकर आऊं जो CPAC के CPAC authority के पुराने chairman थे. CPAC के जो phase one है ना वह अब mature होना शुरू होगा और it's going to solve a lot of the problems that you are facing right now जिसकी वजह से आपके energy mix के मसले आते थे वगैरह वगैरह and similarly जो phase two start होना है वह phase two था ही industrialization का. So while we are going to start towards industrialization तो वो opportunity बढ़ना शुरू होगी कि हम किस तरह से export कर सकते हैं. चाहे वो textile है, चाहे वो surgical goods हैं, चाहे वो sports goods हैं. तो वो opportunities ढूंढने हैं. वो identify करें कि वहां पर आप क्या क्या areas के अंदर support कर सकते हैं. IT services तो is a huge thing. Yeah. जाएं जाकर पूरी लुनियां जो है वह NFT तो web three तो blockchain तो AI तो. Yeah. I mean you name it. 5G आ रहा है there is going to be an incredible opportunity that is going to be created. And it's not like can't get into these industries. There is like

so many courses and things you can do and learn and get in there, Exactly.

It's just we don't have the insight. यार बंदा ready बैठा हुआ है यहां पर. जब Amazon बिकाया है और मैंने देखा है कि 1,000,000 बंदा Amazon पर जाने के लिए ready है ना. Middle East for most part is is is एक तो वह वह है थोड़ा सा ना because of the commodities वह protected है from the global recession. But more than that they are also investing a lot of money pumping it into their own economies because they want to grow and create certain, you know, stop their dependency on oil. Yeah. तो सऊदियों का vision 2030 है. Yeah. They are investing a lot of money. Dubai का vision 2040 है जिसमें वो Dubai को redesign कर रहे हैं satellite. No, like I know, like आप खुद से नज़र आ जाता है ना कि all the like major tech conferences are now happening in the Middle East like they are getting out of like the oil mindset to a technology mindset and like you can see. You can absolutely see और sir मैं बताऊंगी the future of the world is being created in The Middle East right now. People are not seeing it but there is an for पाकिस्तानी considering we have a cultural linkage with them. We have a huge diaspora there. We are very well structured to reap the rewards from those from Middle East. People aren't seeing it. अगर वह देख लें, it's an insane opportunity that is about to rise out of the Middle East. There is a changing world order वैसे separately एक बड़ी अच्छी video है रे डालियों की on on the changing world order people should see that. But there is a there is a changing world order. China is going to be the world's largest economy by 2026. This global center of economic gravity is shifting towards the East. मैंने आपको उस map में दिखाया था कि east के अंदर जो है center of gravity था. 35 of the GDP. हां हां. और फिर वह ICICI West किया and it eventually culminated Pakistan में उसमें से लोग बाहर भी चले जाएंगे, लेकिन अब vast majority has to stay in Pakistan. Yeah of course they have. They need to figure out. ये इस तरह तो नहीं चल सकता. और ये जो moment होता है ना reform And so its for those people to be able to identify the opportunity get into the right time जहां पर वो Asia की story लिखी जा रही है जहां पर पूरा Asia rise करेगा. Saudi और Iran दोस्ती कर रहे वो दोस्ती कर सकते हैं तो हम Pakistan India दोस्ती नहीं कर सकता sir वो भी होगा. आप आने वाले वक्त में देखेंगे. हां like when stuff you know happens and you realize you need each other you do it. You do it यार when it's economics when you know that you can take out millions of people out of poverty in both countries. Yeah I think like ego ख़त्म कर रहा हूं. नाम हो जाएगी and you will move on. I think now at a time Asia is beginning to understand. Asia is definitely beginning to understand भी that. भाई देखिए अब वह वक़्त नहीं है. अब मार पड़ेगी. आपको और अगर अभी नहीं किया तो नहीं सर्दियों में गीत नहीं होगी और गर्मियों में cooling नहीं होगी. ठीक है? तो जब यह नहीं होगा ना तो थोड़ी सी extra effort डालनी पड़ेगी. Boring चीज़ें देखनी पड़ेगी. Boring technical चीज़ों को समझना पड़ेगा. जान मारनी पड़ेगी और और और पैसा बनाना पड़ेगा.

Because we can't be like our our older generations. वैसे I think generally people in Pakistan they are lacking in investment mindset and what I mean by that is कि हम लोग की I don't know हमारी शायद self esteem इतनी low है या हमें यह चीज़ समझ नहीं आती और we have been fed the wrong you know information our entire life where any kind of self growth has some kind of shame attached to it. So it's like, you know, it's considered wrong, it's considered arrogant और आप किसी भी level पर वह कर लें कि अपने लिए करना, बस हमेशा दूसरों के लिए करो. Problem कहां थी कि when you don't invest in yourself, whether in terms of knowledge, whether in terms of your lifestyle, whether in terms of any kind of growth जिसमें आप कहते हो कि नहीं there is the the eventual growth नहीं होती. बात यह है कि the more you invest in yourself the better of an asset you become to the your country. Your people this world. Exactly. Like अल्लाह ने आंखों भेजा इस दुनिया में अपने आप बेहतर से बेहतर बनाने के लिए achieve your highest potential so you can serve. Absolutely. The fact is people in this country don't do that. जहा पर उनको दो रुपए अपनी थोड़ी सी growth में लगाने पड़ते हैं and I'll take it down to like the basic, the most basic things of, you know, getting better education, getting better food, investing in their mental health, investing in their physical health. It's all considered these very small basic things which people are, which people actually deserve, they consider it that they don't deserve these things. Yeah. Right? So, वह mindset change करना and like and even and the things that they will spend their money on. Yeah. They will spend their money on a lot of things but they are not investments. Yeah. Like for example, like you could be buying a bunch of clothes. ठीक है? And I am talking about people who have money. Yeah. Like they will buy a bunch of those clothes but they will not invest in their growth. So, there they are that that spending spending and and that's that's there is is a a difference, difference right? मैं right? आपको छोटी सी मिला देता हमारा spending mindset बहुत है. यार investment

mindset नहीं है. We had a guy in we had a guy who used to work for us. Minimum wage job 25,030 thousand Very basic work two three hours a day. Office में जो था? हां. And he would this one time he came to me and he was holding an iPhone. And so I asked him कि अच्छा wow माशाल्ला आपने यह कैसे लिया? उन्होंने कहा कि बस मैंने जो है ना committee डाली और मैंने यह iPhone ले लिया because मैंने पता नहीं कोई game खेलनी थी. And he is not somebody who has money. He invested two months of his salary into a product to play games. I was after him कि यार तुम कुछ learning करो तुम यह देखो मैंने उसको courses निकाल के दिए मैंने कहा बस तुमने इसको देखना है इसको इस तरह से कर लेना है I didn't do it didn't do it didn't do it. वह mentality नहीं थी. He kept on coming to me he said कि you know मैंने सुना है कि वह this

ride hailing service के ऊपर जो है ना वह बस बैठने के bonus मिल जाता है. Yeah, so that shows the mentality in mindset. The people are not just lazy, they are not willing to make themselves grow. Absolutely. और जब तक यहां पर लोग grow नहीं करेंगे, मुल्क कैसे grow करें? Like become an asset, like you can't sit and just complain, right? Yeah. And that goes for everyone. जिस भी आप circumstance में जहां पर भी हो, whatever you can make out of your limited resources, whatever you have, make yourself useful. Absolutely. Work on making yourself a productive, useful member of the society and one by one people start doing that. You see the economics change. Absolutely and every society has had a senior.

China had an OPM problem. China was hugely corrupt. Indonesia had a huge corruption. Yeah yeah yeah. And political turmoil. These countries came out of it. Yeah. So we will come out of it as well. It's just that we need to have the right indicators. Now connecting this with the current turmoil. देखिए मैं यह कह रहा हूं कि हम इस point पर आ गए. मेरी prediction यह है कि अब आप चाहें या ना चाहें क्योंकि हमारे लोग lazy थे. The reason why I am so passionate about it is because I have experienced this. You invest in people, you invest in productivity, you will go grow beyond your wildest imaginations. Yeah it's it's it's fear से ना सोचे ना. हाँ वो छोटी सोचे कि मेरे पास पांच लाख रुपया आ रहा है.

घर के productive members बढ़ रहे हैं because they are well nourished, they are eating better. It's like. Yeah. Recently I read in this book that money is energy. Right? So the more you create it the better your society is. Yeah. Like एक money के साथ relationship को change करना बहुत ज़रूरी है because as long as you continue to see money as this negative thing जो हमारी, by the way हमारी country का बहुत major problem है of having a very negative relationship with money considering it a bad thing. Yeah. It's so important to love money because when you love money, you want to create it, you want to work for it and it's an energy, right? अगर आपके पास five lakh हैं, five lakh की आप बात करें, ठीक है? It's a form of energy जो आपने अपने पास रखी हुई है. हाँ. आप उस energy को ना आप किसी और को दे सकते हो. वह further किसी और को दे सकते बिल्कुल ऐसा ही है. और वह एक spread होता है society में and productivity and energy and everything like. आपको एक मज़ा आया बताऊं? Islam. अंदर.

The love for money has there is nothing wrong with this that in Islam. Yes, it's really good thing. It's a really good thing. Islam से भी कहते हैं hold ना करो. हां यह तो मैं कह रही हूं. कमाओ, खर्च करो, कमाओ, खर्च करो. ताकि खर्च करने वाला अगला बंदा जो है वह आगे खर्च करे जब economy money move करेगा तो वह वह करेगा. अब उसमें ख़र्च आप किस चीज़ के ऊपर कर रहे It's a very bad cycle. आपने charity की बात की ना. हां. आप कहते यार बेचारे ग़रीब लोग इतने से ज़्यादा हैं तो इसकी वजह से जाना गुर्बत जो है वह वह है. यार the more money you give to the people while they're not working the less money there will be. The less bread there is available in the house.

How?

क्यों? So, आपके घर में let's assume कि दो लड़के जो है वह बाहर जाकर कमा कराते हैं. Double OT लेकर आते हैं हर दिन रात को. और चार लड़के घर में बैठे हुए और video games खेलते पूरा दिन. ठीक है? और you feel bad for the चार लड़के जो घर बैठे हुए हैं. ठीक है? And you give all of all of the food और majority of the food तो जो बाहर जा रहे हैं ना they are less incentivized to go outside. Yeah yeah हम लोगों को so there is less bread being created in the first place.

Poverty? Because problem यह है कि लोग गरीब तो हैं right and like Absolutely. देना तो And in fact इस्लाम में यह भी है. यह कहता हूं कि आप मैं target

अगर मैंने अपनी life में बड़ा simple सा किया था and growing up I used to do a lot of यह roadside charity. Yeah yeah, I know used to do a lot of charity. What I changed was that I did all I converted all of that charity towards TCF. Yeah. I converted all of that charity to organizations, इधारे. Economy of scale के अंदर बड़ी power होती है. Right? आप जाके जब हर बंदा अपनी डेढ़ दिन की मस्जिद बना के अपने अपने वह कर रहा होता उससे बेहतर है कि आप optimize करके किसी इधारे को दो.

पहले अपना responsibility पूरी करें, फिर state से सवाल करें. Yeah and also I feel like कि एक और भी है ना कि मतलब जिन लोगों के पास for example if people have, people have hired people तो उनको minimum wages भी नहीं देते हैं. हां. तो आप मतलब वह यह है कि आप you are not, the money is not being spent and invested in the right way. Like वो यह जो है कि आपके लिए जो काम कर रहा है उसको आप कम पैसे दोगे लेकिन आप रमज़ान में तुम की charity है. आप तुम की charity दोगी. So that is, you know, that can make you feel really great about yourself. But what is the impact, right? और आपका and if this is completely religious, even then it's wrong. Absolutely. Religiously be it's wrong. Yeah. So,

तो तो क्योंकि religion tells you something very very different and you need to understand the Islam. यार इस्लामic economic system I am going to do a podcast on that. Very interesting sort of side note, I was researching recently and I found out कि जो cryptocurrency के जो believers हैं interestingly what they are recommending is a system that is Islamic finance. Yeah. इसके ऊपर detail में बात करेंगे but लोग discussion होती है ना cryptocurrency हलाल है हराम है तो actual में the the the way the monetary system that they are now proposing is actually the the the monetary system जो इस्लाम लेकर आया था but anyway so point being कि लोगों को we need to move towards exports. We need to move towards the we need to become a global player. We need to in the changing world we need to understand where the world is going. We need to project it. We need to understand it. We need to realign ourselves so that a decade from now we are better positioned than we are today to reap. क्योंकि अभी जो यह दस साल है ना यह थोड़े से troubled होंगे और यह slow होंगे पूरी दुनिया की economy के लिए और again cycle. So यह वह cycle आया हुआ है. तो जो next time bull run आएगा जिसको ये लोग कहते हैं या you know growth का period आएगा उसमें we will be better positioned. And I know कि बड़ा time ज़्यादा हो गया है so मैं next उस पर चला जाता हूं which is why we are now taking certain changes in the podcast as well. मेरा अपना interest change हुआ. मैं जब ये सारा का सारा मैंने study किया तो पहला तो if you remember एक report आई थी मेरे पास सऊदी अरब के बारे में. Yeah. मोगल strandley की. Yeah. जिसमें बड़ी ढाई सौ pages की report थी और बड़ी ज़बरदस्त report थी तो मैंने पूरी की पूरी study की और मुझे उसमें यह तो समझ आ गया बिके मैं believer कि Middle East is where it's at. Recently I took a trip to Dubai as well and वहां पर जाकर जो है मैंने काफ़ी सारी मुलाक़ातें भी की लोगों से discussions की, understand किया कि वह किस तरफ़ जा रहे हैं, क्या कर रहे हैं? And उससे मेरा मज़ीद पुख़्ता हुआ है यह ईमान कि, you know, we have to first of all be a part of that opportunity. But बड़ा डर भी लगा because Dubai is expensive and हम तो गांव है ना एक छोटा सा. Yeah, और गांव में घर कोई ज़िंदा नहीं लेते But जब शहर आते हैं आप तो आपको समझ आ लगती है कि शहर में nobody cares. Yeah. And so, so that's all of that is there but you know I then made that decision कि I want to because like I mentioned कि मेरे लिए podcast जो है is a learning experience. पहला मैं सबसे पहला काम करता कि मैं direction identify करता हूं कि where do I want to go and where do I see myself over the next ten years And then फिर उसके around मैं देखता हूं कि what are the areas that I would like to expand on and then how can I learn about those areas? And so I am proud to announce that we have registered a media company out of Dubai and we are now a multinational

podcast. Podcast.

Yeah, so you are expanding into the Middle East. We are expanding into the Middle East and we are going to have so so while this studio is here and we are going to be having a lot of very interesting conversations in Pakistan जिसमें हम इन्हीं areas को explore कर रहे होंगे और हम Pakistan दो हज़ार पचास के Pakistan को deconstruct करके hopefully with discourse better reforms की तरफ जो है वो लोगों को at least लोगों को समझाना शुरू कर देंगे. जो मैंने पहले बात बोली के politicians बाद में आते पहले हमारे लोगों को समझना है कि उन्होंने क्या demand करना है from the politicians. But उसी के साथ साथ I wanted कि at least half of the conversations will be from the Middle East and North Africa region. I will inshallah hope to, I I do hope to speak to पाकिस्तानीs and non पाकिस्तानीs alike. Yeah, so you want to bring that knowledge here. Absolutely. To these people. So so I am going on a journey on globalizing myself. I am going on a journey on identifying कि how can I begin to? अभी तो मुझे नहीं पता कि किस तरह से होगा और अभी तो मतलब it's it's expensive and I don't know कि उसकी cost accounting किस तरह से मैंने जा But रही I am on that journey on trying to to to peg my earnings on a dollar, right? कि मैं वो earnings वहां से बनाऊं और मैं वहां से यहां लेकर आऊं बजाय से कि मैं यहां से लेकर वहां पर जाऊं. तो तो what what are the ways to do it? कौन से ऐसे areas हैं जहां पर काम कर रहे हैं? कहां पर उनको support चाहिए? कहां पर उनको challenge चाहिए? उनकी सोच क्या है? And through those conversations I hope कि जो यह एक एक एक bridge मैं बना सकूं. क्योंकि in these changing times as we require more and more knowledge. देखिए मेरा मानना जो है ना और यह मेरे मेरी audience से ही मैंने यह चीज़ सीखी है और समझी है कि I think at least a certain segment of my active listeners, I think I'm creating a a listener base of leaders. I think these are the people who are the leaders of the future for for this country and for this region. I think these are the people who are going to rise to the top. Yeah. And so I wanted to identify कि यार, what is the pathway that I can give them? Right? Pakistan में there's only enough that I can give them. You don't need more people dusting and cleaning in the air. In here, exactly. You need more people going out and making the bread. Exactly and so I just thought कि मैं जो है वह वहां जाकर करूं so, InshaAllah it's a, it's very anxiety inducing. It's scary but it's very exciting and we're going to be doing that. We're going to be having those conversations. थोड़ा सा यह है कि अंग्रेज़ी थोड़ी ज़्यादा हो जाएगी. But but, you know, obviously translation का problem है तो वह वह तो होगा. A lot of the conversations for a lot of people they'll be like कि यार यह मैं एक Saudi Arab के एक agri tech के startup के बारे में क्यों sun रहा हूं? But that's what people have to remember, right? This is important for you because Yes, yeah, for the reason at large कि यार food crisis आने वाला है. उस

the point right? वहां पर वैसे भी like the thing with the Middle East, Saudi, all these areas is that people जो Arabs themselves है they don't really work. Yeah yeah of course they are a very small population right? So they are businessman and investor. Yeah yeah और वह oil पर बहुत ज़्यादा depend करते है they are very like jobs are not for us kind of people. Right. So they will need, they actually need and specially when you talk about agriculture desert से उन्होंने कभी किया ही नहीं है. हाँ हाँ so this will be a new thing for them to explore anyway. Then they need people who can do that. So like this is one opportunity you can say that we talking Yes about in this and then there are hundreds of other ones. So that's gonna happen and

it's gonna be very very different, it's gonna be very very exciting and it's gonna be a first of पाकिस्तानीs. हम मैं हमेशा सोचता था कि you know Pakistan से मतलब दुनिया के लोगों को Pakistan तो बुला लेते मैंने Cameron मंट्र का किया podcast. मैंने Robin Rafale का किया. अभी इसी season के अंदर तीन conversations जो हैं European Union के ambassador आ रही हैं. You know multinationals आ रहे हैं इसमें. But then I thought कि हमारे पाकिस्तानी क्यों नहीं कभी बाहर जाते हैं media के अंदर. And so I am very excited. Am very excited to to go out there and introduce myself as you know I am a podcaster from Pakistan

and I want to have this conversation and begin to understand what This is very exciting and I know it's not gonna be easy. That's our, that's a personal thing that we, you know, it's like you've built something so much here. Everything you do is here. All the, all your money is here, you don't know how to like, like जा के podcast करना वहां पर in that economy आप देखें तो from like viewers perspective हाँ podcast कर रहे but वहां का खर्चा.

To be For a podcast, they'll be like, क्यों दें? हां, and so it's it's an investment that's that's being done hoping के for in in two ways. First of all, के के I, ज़हर है like you mentioned के हर इंसान को अपना अपने आप को figure out करना and by proxy आप मुल्की तो सेवा कर ही लेंगे. तो तो मैं किस तरीके से अपने जो income है उसको eventually dollar पर pack कर सकता हूं. हां. And then secondly because I am the beauty of this is, doing this is, that whatever I am learning. You are teaching. I am sharing with the Yeah. Right? It's a, we are going on a journey to make dollars

and Everyone is. Everybody like hop, hop along. Yeah, let's learn. Let's learn. So, let's let's So cute and so exciting.

I'm excited for you. Thank you, thank you. I hope it works out. I hope this कुछ बहुत ही तो random ना हो. लोग clip निकाल के डाल रहे हो. आपके तो बड़े खाब थे, यह क्या हो गया? But, you know, that's the dream and let's see how it evolves. Yeah. So, good luck with this season. Good luck with expanding.

Good luck with going global. And we will be on the sites rooting for you. Thank you, thank you so much. And yeah, anything else? That's it I guess. बस

हम लोग कि अपनी भी एक podcast है, आप उसको check out कर सकते हैं. It's for female, by the female, about the females.

Thanks for the shout out.

Hugan juggler is called happy chirp. For the women, yeah. For the women. Yeah. It's, it's, yeah. So, यह है बाकी है कि I mean obviously I'd like to thank all of the viewers who've been with us. जो जुड़े रहे हैं हमारे साथ पिछले तीन सौ episodes से. And I would just hope कि हम एक journey पर जा रहे हैं. थोड़ी सी evolution आएगी content के अंदर, style के अंदर. I just hope that you stick with us because this is going to be a tough time but but I think we can all come out of it together. I would I would wait for your feedback and your support. Thank you so much. We are going to be दो तीन चीज़ें हाँ मैं आपको बताना चाह रहा था और viewers को बताना चाह रहा था कि जो कि इस season में होंगी. Would like to share that ताकि एक additional resource क्योंकि podcast में तो मैं लोगों की सवाल कर रहा हूं sun रहा होता हूं but उसमें मेरे thoughts जो हैं वह उस पर आ जाएंगे. And then I'm starting a community जो कि एक बहुत exclusive होगी like I mentioned कि we are creating a community of leaders. तो उस पर ज़्यादा focused होकर dedicated होकर you know बहुत थोड़े set of people who actually end up coming into it. We will actually sit down figure out we'll do live sessions we'll do a lot of those things and interact with all of the community members and we'll we'll figure out, कि what all can we do, to maneuver through these times and grow ourselves in in any which way. So these are two very very exciting things that are gonna be coming up.

I wanted to ask you, elections आऐंगे ना? हां जी. So are you, how are you going to, is there anything that we're going to see on the podcast for that?

यार, I mean so I would definitely be talking to a lot of politicians.

Yeah, like I think like bring the politicians and

let like let them talk so people can know, right? हां, so I mean जो again half his name podcast was a big learning for me and so I am very open now in in having these conversations. I just hope because these are these are powerful people and थोड़ा सा इतना आसान नहीं होता कि उनको conversation को आप उस तरह से maneuver through कर सकें. इस तरह से मैं ideally करना चाहता हूं.

आपकी point.

I would love to have people like S N इकबाल. Would love to have people like शाहिद खाकान अबासी. I would love to have someone from the peoples party. Come and have that conversation. I am not, I don't bite. मेरा एक Shout out है मतलब invite है, open invite है. Open है कि वह basically मैं I've been I've been reaching out to people from from these two parties. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to hear back from them. And so if you are someone from that party or if you know someone from that party and you know. Why do you want to have these people? Yes because these people at the end of the day they are all stakeholders right? It's important to उनके ख्यालात सुनना. मुझे personally यह लगता है कि हमने आज तक ख़यालात इन लोगों के से इतना सुने ही नहीं थे. हां हां सही है. Media के through. तो वह आएं आकर मुझे बताएं कि वह क्या सोच रखते हैं. उससे लोग agree और disagree कर सकते हैं. देखिए मैं अपने viewer को trust करता हूं. Mhmm. मैं अपने viewer को trust करके यह समझता हूं कि मेरा viewer इतना समझदार है कि वह ख़ुद अपना opinion बना सकता है. Mhmm. So I am not going to fight the case for the viewer. Mhmm. I am going to listen. I'll be critical in my questioning in an extremely respectful way. But I will accept whatever answer they give me. Why? Because then it's up to the viewer for कि वह उससे agree करता है या वह decision. Yeah, because you're basically not out here trying to push any kind of agenda. I am not an investigative journalist. I am just a conversationist. Yeah. Here to have conversations. जैसे कि मैं dining room में किसी के साथ बैठूंगा तो मैं बैठकर उससे लड़ाइयां नहीं शुरू कर दूंगा. मैं इतनी से करूंगा. मेरी disagreements भी होंगी तो मैं तमी से करूंगा. मैं किसी के dinner पर गया हूं. उसका भी कोई दोस्त आए, मैं लड़ना शुरू जाऊं. चीप लगता है ना? तो, तो यह है. But,

but yeah, I think we are the two hour mark. Yes, we are. Thank you so much for coming on Thought Behind Things. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Ghost. You are a ghost by the way. That's the right Guest and host, ok? That is true. God gave me this great word. Yeah, thank you for coming and, I don't know why don't you do your ending with Yeah.

So thank you. Thank you so much for watching. अगर आपको, अगर आप YouTube पर देख रहे तो like का button दबाएंगे जुड़की ज़्यादा लोगों के conversation पहुंचेगी. बल्कि like का please button दबाएं ताकि engage जुड़ेगा ज़्यादा लोगों के लिए conversation पड़े so you can join that as well. इसके साथ साथ हम यहां पर कहीं पर easy पैसा jazz cash सादा पर आ रहा होगा. If you would like to support the channel we accept anything from 1 rupee to as much as you would like. It's the thought that counts But anyways, this was सय्यद मुज़ामिल हसन ज़ैदी. And हम्मा

रज़ा. हम्मा रज़ा.

You are watching ThoughtBand things. Thank you so much for watching, we'll see you in the next one. Bye.