Thought Behind Things · Dec 10, 2025 · 1:51:12
Sending your kids abroad isn't an investment, it's exposure
Ginkgo Retail's Obaid Arshad on bootstrapping to millions in orders without a funding round, and why going abroad should be about exposure, not money.
with Obaid Arshad
14 min read
A recession sends the family home, before the real education starts
Muzamil opened this episode, recorded in Ginkgo Retail’s Lahore studio as part of a series with Endeavor Pakistan profiling the country’s fastest-growing startups, by framing e-commerce as one of two sectors, alongside fintech, doing the most to digitize an economy where, by his estimate, less than 1 percent of retail has moved online, against 15 to 20 percent in India and Western markets. That gap is the backdrop against which Obaid Arshad’s own story starts.
Obaid Arshad spent his first sixteen years in Dubai, where his father worked as a mechanical engineer for the Dubai government and his mother taught school. When the 2008 recession strained the family’s finances, everyone except his father moved back to Pakistan, settling in Wah Cantt, near Islamabad, in a house inherited from his grandfather, a retired army officer. It was, by his description, a small, limited environment to land in after Dubai.
Muzamil asked him directly where the discipline behind Ginkgo Retail came from, and Obaid Arshad didn’t point to a business degree or a mentor. He pointed to his parents. “The mother of all these things is the mindset,” he said, “and that mindset, work on it starts from day one.” He describes an upbringing built around patience, tolerance, and gratitude long before it was built around grades, and credits his school years alongside Indian classmates in Dubai with teaching his parents, watching him navigate that diversity, what a different style of raising a child could look like. He points to one concrete outcome of that culture today: he says employee retention at Ginkgo runs above 95 percent, which he attributes to running the company more like a counselor and motivator than a conventional manager.
That same answer carried the line that gives this piece its title. “I think we should send children abroad at a very early stage,” Obaid Arshad told Muzamil, “and parents should go abroad too, to see what’s positive in different communities, different civilizations. We should adapt that and bring it back to Pakistan.” His point wasn’t that families should chase money overseas. It was that Pakistan’s education system overloads children with books and exam pressure and forgets that a child is also supposed to grow into a person.
Selling credit cards, hauling tank parts, learning without a syllabus
Back in Pakistan, Obaid Arshad completed ICOM and BCOM in Wah Cantt, and by his own account, wasn’t a standout student either way. What he did know, he said, was that he was a hustler. His first job, arranged through an uncle who managed an HBL branch, was selling credit cards as a retail sales officer in 2011. From there he moved through a string of odd jobs: supplying tank parts to a heavy industry client in Taxila, running a Leopards Courier franchise, investing in a restaurant, and supervising overland logistics for TCS in Wah Cantt.
None of it made him money. What it gave him, he told Muzamil, was a practical education that university wasn’t offering. “I didn’t know what I would end up doing, or what I was made to do,” he said. “All I knew was that I kept on hustling.” Banking taught him fintech and cash handling. TCS and Leopards taught him logistics. The restaurant and the parts-supply business taught him what running something actually costs. By 2016, he moved into e-commerce as a customer services officer at Sapphire, on a salary of 70,000 rupees a month. Within that role and the one after it, he says he turned down other offers worth up to 300,000 rupees a month, because staying put meant staying connected to more than a hundred client relationships, and that access, not the paycheck, was what let him see where the industry was actually heading. He describes his own learning style the same way across every one of those jobs: where a university student was assigned one subject per semester, he says he assigned himself four or five departments at once, cash handling and loan processing at the bank, overnight parcel routing alongside his official supervisor role at TCS, absorbing adjacent functions because the actual job in front of him rarely held his attention on its own.
Building the product inside someone else’s company
Within a year at Sapphire, Obaid Arshad moved to Alchemative, where he says he ended up running four or five departments at once: billing, recovery, business development, marketing, and the Shopify Plus development practice the agency was building for brands like Sapphire and Ethnic. Alchemative became Pakistan’s first Shopify Plus agency-level partner, at a time when Shopify itself, a Canadian platform built for paid, card-heavy markets, had no real handle on Pakistan’s cash-on-delivery reality. Obaid Arshad says the country’s e-commerce sector grew roughly 97 percent year over year through that stretch, with individual brands going from a few hundred monthly orders to ten thousand as automation took over what used to be manual work.
The pivot from services to product happened almost by accident. A client came to Alchemative with a specific operational problem, and Obaid Arshad’s team realized their existing plugins could be combined into something bigger. Rather than raise outside capital, they went back to that same client with a pitch: fund the build for 4 million rupees, and it would return in a year what the market would otherwise take much longer to deliver. The client agreed, on trust built over prior work that had already grown their online business from roughly 9 million to 320 million rupees a month, and that funding became, in effect, Ginkgo’s founding capital. “We did not give equity, and we did not do a proper round,” Obaid Arshad said. The whole thing was incubated inside Alchemative, under one roof, because he says he didn’t believe in running a side hustle of the same nature as his day job.
An equity buyout, without a fight
As the product matured, Obaid Arshad negotiated an equity split with Alchemative’s founder: a stake for Alchemative, a stake for Obaid Arshad, and a stake for his CTO. Two years later, as Alchemative became what he calls a sleeping partner while Obaid Arshad’s team ran everything day to day, he bought out their equity outright. “When I moved from Alchemative to Ginkgo, I didn’t want my equity in Alchemative,” he said. “I wanted skin in the game, and I wanted my complete equity in Ginkgo.” Alchemative itself was later acquired by another Pakistani IT firm, long after Obaid Arshad had already moved on and bought out his own stake.
Muzamil pressed on whether the split was genuinely fair, framing it against what he called Pakistan’s low-trust business culture, where partnerships often end with one side extracting the upside and the other walking away with nothing. Obaid Arshad insisted the number both sides agreed on was neutral, not one he dictated from a position of power, even though by that point he held the leverage as CEO. “When I go to my grave,” he said, “I want to be certain that I never wronged anyone just over money.” He and Alchemative’s former founder are still on speaking terms today, by his account, and still exchange ideas.
The karyana store and Metro Cash & Carry
Asked to explain Ginkgo Retail in plain terms, Obaid Arshad reached for an analogy: a neighborhood karyana store has one person managing everything from memory, no ledger, no point-of-sale system. Metro Cash & Carry runs the same basic function, retail, at a completely different order of infrastructure. Ginkgo’s post-order management platform is what lets a merchant make that jump. Once a store owner is running Shopify or WordPress and has moved past a few hundred orders a month, cash-on-delivery verification calls, courier routing, address correction, invoice generation, and inventory sync across warehouses and storefronts stop being manageable by hand, across five different logins and a stack of spreadsheets. Ginkgo unifies all of it into one system, priced, Obaid Arshad says, to be affordable from a five-hundred-order-a-month startup up through enterprise.
The clearest version of that pitch came during COVID. Retail networks across Pakistan went into lockdown, and Obaid Arshad says Ginkgo converted brick-and-mortar inventory into what he calls fulfillment centers: a shop with unsold stock could pick, pack, and ship an online order directly from its own shelf rather than let that inventory sit dead. By his account, Ginkgo now runs omnichannel operations for over 200 merchants, including Sapphire, Nishat, Outfitters, and Bata, spanning more than 8,000 brand locations, and the same inventory pool can serve a store counter, a website, and a marketplace listing at once without duplicating stock or losing track of what has actually sold.
Why a Canadian platform never understood Pakistan
Obaid Arshad’s central argument for why a locally built platform beats an imported one comes down to data and payment behavior. Shopify, he points out, was built for a market where 80 to 90 percent of sales happen through Walmart and Amazon, largely prepaid. Pakistan runs on cash on delivery, and Ginkgo’s own storefront product, built to compete with Shopify and Magento, uses that difference directly: dynamic pages that show a returning customer non-discounted items if that’s their pattern, or resurface a discount if bounce-rate signals suggest they’re about to leave. He credits this personalization layer with lifting conversion by 30 percent before a customer even reaches checkout, a figure he offered as his own claim rather than an audited number. “We are that company,” he said, comparing Ginkgo’s local buildout to what Tesla would need to do to sell in a market with no charging infrastructure: bring the whole system, not just the product.
He drew a comparison, unprompted, to LAAM, a Pakistani cross-border marketplace he admires for its backend logistics work but criticizes for a consumer experience he says doesn’t match its technical strength. Muzamil raised a related platform, Octane, and Obaid Arshad drew a clear line between the two businesses: Octane is solving international fulfillment and shipping cost for brands selling overseas, while Ginkgo is solving local operations and omnichannel retail. “Our model is different,” he said, arguing the two overlap only at the edges rather than compete head to head, since a large local brand generally wants to keep its own warehousing rather than hand inventory to a third party.
Design is Pakistan’s weak point, not the technology
Muzamil pushed on a gap he’d noticed across Pakistani e-commerce generally: strong backend engineering paired with clunky, uneven storefront design, something he said he could sense in Ginkgo’s own client sites even without knowing the platform underneath. Obaid Arshad didn’t dispute it. He argued the deeper problem isn’t a Ginkgo problem, it’s that Pakistani merchants rarely treat design as something worth paying for the way they’d pay for a physical retail buildout. His comparison: nobody opens a store without hiring an interior decorator, yet the same business will launch a website without anyone dedicated to color, layout, or font choices, then wonder why conversion lags. “Until designers, marketers, and engineers sit at the same table for one objective,” he said, “this is never going to get solved, and it has nothing to do with the technology.”
That gap is part of why Ginkgo has started building beyond pure operations. The company recently launched Zentri, described by Obaid Arshad as a made-in-Pakistan digital business-intelligence and AI marketing audit tool, priced for merchants who can’t afford a full agency engagement. He frames the next five years around becoming an incubation hub for products like it, rather than a single-tool company, with an eye toward raising outside capital specifically to take Ginkgo’s own products, not just its services, global, eventually chasing an IPO for one or more of them rather than staying a single privately held operating business.
His broader point was that no software vendor can fix a merchant’s design problem for them if the merchant isn’t willing to invest in it in the first place. A brand that treats its storefront as an afterthought will keep getting an afterthought’s conversion rate, regardless of which platform sits underneath it, and Obaid Arshad was blunt that this is a market-wide habit rather than something unique to any one client of his.
Chasing Saudi Arabia and Egypt, not a funding round
Ginkgo’s international footprint, by Obaid Arshad’s account, already includes white-label review-management products used by more than 150 merchants in Canada and the US, including Nike and Adidas, generating over 8 million dollars in annual recurring revenue on that line alone. The core Ginkgo product has started expanding into Dubai and Saudi Arabia, with existing clients in the UAE and early conversations underway in Saudi. He frames Egypt and Saudi Arabia as natural next markets precisely because they share Pakistan’s structural problem: Egypt runs 80 to 90 percent cash on delivery, Saudi around 70 percent, against Ginkgo’s home market at 96 percent, in a country of 250 million against Saudi Arabia’s roughly 33 million. Whatever Ginkgo has already solved for Pakistan’s population, he argues, becomes the playbook for markets with the same cash-heavy pattern and a fraction of the scale.
On funding, Obaid Arshad was candid that bootstrapping wasn’t entirely a choice. Ginkgo’s early cap table, split between Alchemative, himself, and his CTO, made it harder to raise a clean round, so growth was funded through the business itself instead, at what he put at 70 to 80 percent year-on-year growth over the last three years. He said Ginkgo is now open to outside capital for the right, like-minded investors, though he stopped short of naming a timeline for an IPO, calling it something the company wants eventually rather than imminently.
Send your kids abroad, but not for the money
Midway through the conversation, Muzamil paused to draw out what he saw as the real lesson underneath Obaid Arshad’s numbers: not a growth hack, but a set of inherited values, patience, optimism, gratitude, that he argued matter more than any tactic circulating on short-form video. He tied that directly back to Obaid Arshad’s own story of growing up abroad. “The actual reason to go abroad is exposure,” Muzamil said. “It’s not money. It’s not that you’ll get rich, or that some lottery will land on you.”
Muzamil extended the point further than Obaid Arshad had: that a child raised with a different frame of reference stands out against every other student funneled through the same schools chasing the same grades, that exposure itself becomes a kind of differentiation rather than a shortcut to wealth. He also flagged something Obaid Arshad had said about himself earlier: that arriving in Pakistan from Dubai as a softer, more idealistic person felt, for a while, like a liability in what Muzamil called a market that rewards a harder edge. Obaid Arshad’s own answer to that, given earlier in the conversation, was that the return on values shows up later rather than sooner, and that he’d rather take longer to arrive than get there by cutting someone else out along the way.
Digitizing cash, and a bleak forecast for 2050
Late in the conversation, Obaid Arshad connected Ginkgo’s own work back to a bigger structural shift: digitizing cash necessarily digitizes tax exposure. He described a cosmetics brand selling a product for 3,000 rupees while staying outside the formal, cashless economy, losing customers to a competitor doing 100 million rupees in sales while paying no tax at all, and using that untaxed margin to undercut everyone else on price. As digital rails spread and that 18 percent sales tax becomes harder to avoid, he expects informal, low-margin operators either to formalize or disappear, while properly run businesses absorb their share of the market and newer entrants build compliant pricing in from day one.
Asked, without hedging, to project Pakistan 25 years out, Obaid Arshad didn’t reach for an economic forecast. “There would be money everywhere, there would be stability when it comes to economy,” he said, “but when it comes to the society, when it comes to the planet, it would become a disastrous place to live.” His reasoning wasn’t about GDP. It was about air quality, water, and a generation he believes is already carrying the same underlying sickness regardless of income. “First comes the planet, then society, then economy,” he said. “Here it’s reversed.” Muzamil closed the conversation by noting that whatever the state of the country in the decades ahead, Ginkgo Retail’s push into new regions looks, in hindsight, less like ambition and more like a hedge.
Full transcript
Salam walekum khawateen hazrat, welcome back to another episode of Thought Behind Things. Jaisa ki aapko pata hai aaj kal hamari series chal rahi hai with Endeavor Pakistan. Jahan par hum Pakistan ki sabse exciting, 50 sabse exciting startups aur businesses ko explore kar rahe hain, dhoondh rahe hain. Usi ke andar zaahir hai aapne suna hai e-commerce ki industry ko bhi humne explore kiya, bahut saari aur different industries ko explore kiya, lekin I think agar Pakistan mein fastest growing koi area nikala jaye, toh mere hisaab se woh ya toh Fintech hai aur ya e-commerce hai aur isme jo price Oye ke ek sahab aaye the jinka bada one of the best conversations that I've done. Uske andar unhone bahut zyada maze ki insight di around how he used data to identify ke emerging markets aur developing markets like Pakistan, woh step by step kis tarah se expand karti hain, kis tarah se grow karti hain aur unka bhi thesis yehi tha ke kisi bhi economy ko agar aapne you know evolve karna hai, digitize karna hai, grow karana hai, toh uske andar jo naye zamane ki cheezein hain usme sabse pehle Fintech aati hai jo ke enable karti hai ke yaar aap payments ko acche se aasani se kar sakte hain. Aur uske second step ke andar e-commerce aati hai jo ke basically digital means ke through without a lot of investment aapki jo consumer ya jo overall business ki growth hai usko efficient bhi kar deti hai, usko poore mulk mein phaila bhi deti hai and for a country like Pakistan jahan par 25 crore log hain aur infrastructure abhi bada thoda hai. You know Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad mein sirf sirf jo hai na kuch kuch malls hain, kuch kuch commercial clusters hain. Wahan par poore Pakistan ko connect karna, unko consumer markets mein lekar aana, unko space mein woh karna, yeh bada mushkil kaam hai lekin bada exciting kaam bhi hai. Aur yahan par I would say ke agar hum is journey ko dekhen toh hum abhi bahut start mein hain is journey ke. Aane wale waqt ke andar isme bahut zyada growth hai. Isme bahut zyada potential hai aur agar hum India aur you know even Western markets ko dekhen toh jahan par 15-20% of their you know sort of GDP ya unki jo overall retail markets hain woh e-commerce se move kar chuki hain toh Pakistan mein abhi less than 1% is waqt e-commerce pe ja chuki hain. So that's the potential agar hum compare kar saken in terms of potential growth in Pakistan. Aaj ki jo hamari conversation hai us pe quickly jaane se pehle I would give a couple of shoutouts to first to Endeavor Pakistan jo ke ek phenomenal community hai of startup founders and venture capitalists and you know business owners all over the world jismein woh aa kar ke apne particularly emerging market ke andar jo startup founders hote hain, fast growing companies hoti hain unko woh support karte hain, unko woh empower karte hain, woh connect karte hain with global entrepreneurs as well taaki woh unse seekh saken and they enable them to be you know unicorn companies jo ke regionally play play kar saken aur grow kar saken. Agar aap ek bada business hain, ek startup hain jo ke rapidly grow kar raha hai, definitely check out Endeavor Pakistan. Links neeche di hui hai. Saath hi I would like to give a quick shoutout to Kickstart jo ke that has allowed us to be able to shoot this series. Karachi ke andar, Lahore ke andar unhone humein you know studio space di which is jo ke hum again hamare liye ek bahut badi cost hoti hai lekin they've been kind enough to let us use it for free. Yeh wali episode bhi hamari Kickstart ke Lahore studio ke andar shoot ho rahi hai. Kickstart is an incredible co-working space jo ke Pakistan ki sabse badi co-working space at this point in time ban chuki hai. If you want to know more about them, if you're a freelancer, if you're a IT company looking for office spaces in Pakistan, definitely check out these guys. Link is down there below. Saath hi agar aapka attention span thoda hai aur aap jo hai woh you know do do ghante ki conversations nahi sun sakte toh aapke liye humne clips ka channel start kiya hai jahan par hum har conversation ki sabse important aur powerful jo jo conversation hoti hai ya jo discussion hoti hai woh hum wahan par 8 se 15 minute ki upload karte hain taaki aapko ek quick summary bhi mil jaye. Yahan par kahin par aa raha hoga you can join that channel and lastly is channel ko main dekhta hoon ke 80-85 log jo hain woh percent log jo hain woh dekhte zaroor hain lekin woh subscribe nahi karte toh baraye karam subscribe kar den. Humein uska fayda hota hai, behtar conversation hum aapki taraf lekar aa sakte hain aur zyada logon tak hamari conversation pahunchti hai. Aaj ki hamari conversation is with an incredible story that I did not know about up until a month ago when I was introduced to these guys and jab maine inka scale suna toh mera I mean my mind was absolutely blown. Agar main kuch numbers aapko de de sakoon, ghaliban yeh koi takreeban paanch se saat saal ho gaye hain inko operate karte hue. Exact numbers yehi batayenge. Lekin right now they're doing sirf jo inka platform hai e-commerce ka uske through jo business drive hota hai 100 billion rupees se zyada ka business saalana drive ho raha hai which is around 350 million dollars jisko aap GMV bhi keh sakte hain. Usi ke andar jo inki net valuation jo maine nikali hai inke numbers daal kar ke woh takreeban 30 to 40 million dollars at this point in time banti hai. Rapidly woh grow kar rahe hain. Healthy, profitable company hai. Takreeban 250 ke kareeb inke vendors hain. 3.5 million orders yeh mahana process kar rahe hain. These are staggering numbers and obviously uski wajah se jo scale hai us scale ko reach karne ke baad aap really mazedar products bana sakte hain and I'd love to have a wider, deeper conversation around that. Aaj hamare saath maujood hain Ubaid Arshad who is the founder and CEO of Jinko Retail. This is TBT Season 5 Lahore Studio. Ubaid bhai, Assalam Alaikum. Thank you so much for joining us.
Walekum Assalam. Thank you Muzamil bhai for having this podcast with me.
Main pehle toh start karunga I want for the sake of the audience thoda sa mujhe overview de saken Jinko Retail kya hai, kya karta hai aur jo maine zaahir hai maine second hand information di hai aap directly bata sakte hain ke you know ek quick summary kitna arsa ho chuka hai isko what's the scale is time ke upar jo aap operate kar rahe hain.
Okay. So the thing is ke overall Jinko Retail we started back in 2019. Humne Jinko Retail ko 2019 mein start kiya but hum e-commerce ki space mein 2015-2016 se the. So aap yeh samjhen ke sabse pehle jab humne start kiya humne e-commerce us time pe grow kar raha tha aur bahut se challenges the. So it was like in a very early stage. Theek hai. Toh humne jab usko start kiya so we see that lot of potential in this area. Toh uske uske andar jab humne Shopify ko market mein introduce karwaya toh usme overall logistic ki problems thi, payment gateways ki problem thi, Fintech ki problems thi, ERP integrations ki problem thi, pick pack ship ki problem thi. So obviously online grow kar raha tha lekin yeh challenges the aur Pakistan mein koi bhi international product ya platform was sort of not working on this thing. So we found this thing as an opportunity aur humne pehle plugins banana start kiye. When we started building plugin toh humein jo hai market se bahut acha feedback aaya aur even though just to share this thing ke we were the first Shopify Plus agency level partner. Yeh unko milti hai jo jinki us platform ke upar kaafi grip hoti hai. Toh jab humne apne own pe yeh cheezein develop karna start ki so then when they gave us the Shopify Plus agency level partnership. So they were like ke yaar hum toh 10 saal tak bhi Pakistan ki market ko apni market nahi samajh rahe the because it was a platform jo ke Canadian based platform tha aur udhar ki market ki dynamics different hain. Almost us time bhi woh 90% and above paid market ke liye the. Hamara toh day one se challenge hi cash on delivery tha. So generally humne woh funnel complete ki. Toh jab humne funnel complete ki back in 2019, Covid aane se like six months pehle humne is in saare plugins ko combine kar ke ek end to end funnel bana di. Ke bhai aap order toh Shopify pe le rahe ho lekin uske baad post order management matlab order ka aana, uska credit card ke order ka verify hona, cash on delivery ke order ka verify hona, customer profiling hona, logistics ka kaun sa courier kis city ke liye best hai aur kis courier ko kitna business dena hai, woh rules, woh automation, yeh wali cheezein phir uske baad Microsoft Dynamics, Retail Pro, Candela matlab business was something jo ke bits and pieces mein tha. Ab usko one window karna tha. Theek hai. Matlab aap bahut si excels use kar rahe the, different platforms use kar rahe the, phir data consolidate nahi ho pa raha tha. Theek hai. Efficiency nahi aa pa rahi thi, cheezein streamline nahi ho pa rahi thi. So we did this thing ke hum services dete dete humne bola chalo let's make a product. Theek hai. Jab humne is product ko banaya toh the good thing was ke humein Endeavor apna as a pehla client jo hai is pe mila. Toh 2019 was the first year jismein humein pehla client mila aur the product was started getting massive hit in the market. Kyunki we knew this thing ke this is a product of a market by the market aur humein market se input aata gaya, hum usko bada seriously lete gaye, hum product ko evolve karte gaye. 2019 se 2025 like sitting today here hamare paas 240 merchants hain jismein fashion aur footwear ke above 80% jo large enterprise hain like Sapphire, Ethnic, Outfitter, Limelight and so on. Shoe mein toh Bata, Borjan, Endeavor, Shoe Planet, Logo Shoes, ECS and all. So yeh saara hamara hamara platform jo hai use kar rahe hain. So numbers jaise aapne bataye bas main jo unko confirm kar doon. We are the largest order aggregator in Pakistan aur hum average jo hai 3.5 million order jo hai process karte hain monthly. Overall jo hamara GMV hai woh jo hamare platform ke through manage ho raha hai woh 100 billion ke kareeb hai matlab approx USD 350 million as you said. Theek hai. Isi tarah more than the good thing is ke jo Omni channel hai we were the one jismein humne Covid mein jab retail jo jo hai jo retail network hai it was lockdown. Theek hai. So humne kya kiya humne online ki inventory aur inko dark stores pe convert kar ke, inko Omni channel pe convert kar ke we helped lot of business by using technology for their survival. Ke unki inventory dead na ho jaye ya at least jo consumer ko jo products bhejni hai woh woh woh di ja saken. So aaj hamare platform pe more than 8000 overall different brand ki locations jo hain woh Omni pe work kar rahi hain. Phir we are the only company jiski product mein itni depth hai ke agar aapke paanch stores hain aap usko one window se manage kar sakte ho. Phir agar aap Daraz, Lam ya multiple market place pe ho. So ek rule laga ke aap multiple selling channel enable kar sakte ho. Theek hai. Jaise agar aapka ek product hai aapke ek warehouse mein 10 quantity hai. So might be it's possible ke aap apni website pe laga se sell kar sakte ho. But what agar main aapko yeh boloon ke 10 ki 10 inventory at a same time multiple market places pe bhi chali jayegi, aapke store pe bhi chali jayegi aur woh is tarah unified ho jayegi ke jahan se bhi woh sell hogi hum woh numbers jo hain woh adjust kar denge. So then there are lot of things jo automation hai jismein humne value add ki hai. Theek hai. Aur jab humne value add ki hai so is market mein aap dekhen jo jo store front hai phir humne apna woh bhi launch kiya hai jis pe hum detail mein baad mein jayenge. So we always wanted to be a company ke we are one of that company jismein jisne services se start kiya but back in 2019 humne ek ek ek mission jo banaya sabse pehla woh yeh banaya ke humne service nahi deni. We want to build a product, a SaaS based product aur humne market mein apni product ko le ke jana hai. So Alhamdulillah we we we from day one we are profitable, hum bootstrapped hain aur yeh yeh yeh saari jo journey hai overall abhi tak.
Make sense. I think jo jo sabse powerful cheez hai iske andar woh yehi hai ke jaise aapne bola ke bootstrapped hain, profitable hain. Real problem ke around ek real solution build kar rahe hain and you have the validation as well from the industry jo ke aapka platform use kar rahi hai. What I'd be curious about though and generally I start with that but maine is baar thoda sa na angle change kar ke maine start kiye conversation kyunki main kuch logon ko yehi define karwana chah raha hoon ke pehle success story define kar ke na pehli cheez ab dimagh mein logon ki yeh aati hai ke yaar yeh kaise kiya na is bande ne main bhi yeh karna chahta hoon. Lekin aapki story ke andar I think jo sabse important cheez hai jo ke I feel like a lot of young people miss aaj ki duniya mein. Khaas kar jo zaahir hai mere jaise creators hain jo ke aa ke success stories saamne lekar aa rahe hain. Ab woh kahin na kahin yeh galti bhi kar dete hain ke woh ek success story bechne mein woh usko aise dikhate hain ke yeh bada aasaan kaam hai. You know tum bhi apni job chodo, apna you know padhai shadhai chodo aur bas aao aur aa ke business karo, entrepreneur banna hota hai, job shop kuch nahi hota. Poori economy mein saare entrepreneurs nahi ho sakte. Ek pathway bhi hota hai, aapne pehle ja ke ek basic understanding banani hai. And so I'm curious ke you know what has your overall journey been that has enabled you kyunki yeh jo aap kaam kar rahe hain yeh sau aur logon ne kaam kiya hai. Right? And kahin na kahin woh shayad kaam mein itni rocket science nahi hogi lekin uske andar ek business dynamic thi jo ke customer ke pain point ko samajh ke usko relevant solution provide kar ke usme competitive advantage daal ke profitability maintain kar ke sustain karti kar rahi hai aur jiski wajah se wahan par scale aaya hai. So I want to understand where were you born, early life aapne kahan pe guzari and and how have you evolved that allowed for you to to be able to build something like this?
Okay. So I guess ke it's it's something which is a very interesting question aur I guess ke yeh woh cheez hai jo ke samajhna bahut zaroori hai because for every product there is something behind it aur woh woh woh X factor kya hai? Woh samajhna bahut zaroori hai. So I was born and brought up in Dubai. Like my father was a mechanical engineer in Dubai government, my mother was a teacher. So I guess jo journey thi na usme the good thing was ke humein day one pe bahut si cheezein is tarah jo hai na woh learn kara di gayi upbringing mein ya hamara jo school of thought mein like jo jisko log bahut light lete hain, like bahut easy lete hain. Like jo personality development hai na I guess ke woh school se nahi shuru hoti. Aapki pehli jo darsgah hai na woh maa ko isi isi wajah se kaha gaya hai. Aapke parents. Imagine ke aap expect kar rahe ho ke ek bahut acha school hai aur usme minimum strength bhi 30 hogi class mein. So you cannot imagine this thing ke agar ek teacher un 30 bachon ko padha rahi hai ya sikha rahi hai. Kya woh zyada focused hai ya aapke parents ghar mein aapko jo time de rahe hain. So I feel like all the credit kyunki yeh main apne siblings mein bhi is cheez ki consistency dekhta hoon. Toh jab main ab apni journey ko recall karta hoon toh mujhe idea hota hai ke woh X factor tha kya. So I want to give that thing to the parents, to the children or and to the community. What I feel like is ke jab humein ab hamari upbringing mein na toh hamara humein na ek acha insaan banna sikhaya ja raha tha. Humein patience sikhaya ja raha tha, humein tolerance sikhaya ja raha tha. Hamari education se pehle humein yeh dekha ja raha tha ke hum kisi se ladte toh nahi hain aur agar humein bardasht hai ya nahi hai aur humein kaise negativity ko discourage karna hai, humein kaise optimistic hona hai, humein kaise har cheez ka positive angle dhoondhna hai, humein kaise we need to be thankful to Allah, we need to be thankful to the parents. Humein kaise kam pe bhi jo hai woh raazi hona hai. Theek hai. Humein kaise agle ka benefit sochna hai. Ab yeh baatein na baat karne mein aise lagengi ke yaar yeh toh baatein har banda hi karta hai ya har banda hi doosre ko sikhata hai aur jab har banda shayad main podcast pe baitha hoon aur 10 bande podcast pe baithe honge toh woh yeh saari baatein kar rahe honge. But I guess ke agar kisi ne woh dekhna hai toh uski journey pe deep dive le li jaye ya agar aap meri aaj company ka culture dekhenge so it's something ke main I can proudly say this thing ke hamari company mein aaj bhi retention ratio jo hai of employees it's above 95%. So yeh number itself speak for themselves ke hamare yahan logon ko free free mindset hai. Yahan pe stress nahi hai, stress free environment hai, yahan pe logon ko motivate kiya jata hai, yahan pe logon ko unka passion kya hai woh even ke hum log unko detect kar ke bhi dete hain. So I am a more of a counselor, advisor, motivator to the team. Theek hai. So the point is journey mein jab hum Dubai mein the hum different aur ek aur bada aspect tha ke jab main New Indian Model School mein tha so I was interacting with lot of Indian people. Toh wahan se bahut cheezein adapt ki. Ke yaar what kind of attitude they have, what kind of personality they have. So hota pata hai kya hai jab aap different breed ke different logon mein baith rahe hote ho na toh unki family ki jo upbringing hoti hai na toh jab aap school mein interact kar rahe hote ho na toh aapke parents ko bhi seekhne ko milta hai. Bada diversified jo hai na woh learning hoti hai parents ki bhi jaise agar main yeh boloon ke main agar ek Pakistani father hoon agar main suppose ek Egyptian father, ek Iranian father ke paas jaunga toh main yeh seekhunga ke parenting mein unki kya better approach hai, meri kya better approach hai. Toh mujhe lagta hai ke humein humein na badi early stages pe bachon ko out of country bhejna chahiye, parents ko out of country jana chahiye and different communities, different civilization mein kya positives the. Humein woh adapt karna chahiye aur humein Pakistan mein usko lana chahiye because I guess ke hum itna zyada pressurize kar dete hain education system ko, books ko, itna overburden ya load kar dete hain ke hum bhool jaate hain ke is bache ne bade ho ke jo hai personality banni hai iski, iski upbringing honi hai. Theek hai. It's not about having the communication power and all that stuff. Mujhe lagta hai ke communication ho, aapki skill set ho, aapke interpersonal skills ho, yeh sab connected hai base se. Mother of all these thing is the mindset aur woh mindset pe day one se aapke kaam ho raha hota hai. So hum jab main grow kar raha tha toh mujh mein yeh cheezein is tarah se develop ki gayi mere fathers ki wajah se, meri mother ki wajah se, meri self learning ki wajah se overall ke mujhe lagta hai ke jab main Pakistan mein aaya so I was sort of a very different person. Theek hai. Sometime at that time I regretted this thing kyunki main utna utna rigid nahi tha, utna like optimistic tha lekin main us waqt ek apne shell mein chala gaya tha. Ke yaar jo mujhe seekha gaya, jo mujhe bataya gaya, jo mujhe mujhse karwaya gaya shayad hum itne sensitive hain, hum itne soft hearted hain shayad hum toh kamyab ho hi nahi sakte itni cruel market mein. Obviously sorry for my words but this was something. But hua kya mujhe lagta hai ke if you are right and you are doing something right so usme yeh hai ke shorter term pe jo agar objective nahi meet ho rahe woh longer run mein aapko milenge. Sahi hai. So yeh mera bada firm belief hai. Toh main jitni ghaltiyan karta raha, jitni cheezein seekhta raha usne mera aur patience badhaya. Jab mera aur patience bada toh I was able and capable to manage a bigger team. I was able and capable to handle a lot more a lot more sort of difficult situations, difficult positions and jo stress ko handle karna aaya aur woh saara kuch. Jab woh mujhe aaya toh main ne woh travel kiya. I was I become a person jo bahut vocal tha. So my area becomes like sort of a handling people, enabling people and getting best out of the people. Theek hai. So mujhe lagta hai ke mera core area is human, humanity and building personality and making my personality way much better by interacting with people. Toh people management is is is a core aspect. Agar aap Jinko Retail ke peeche yeh dekhenge na when you will come to know ke jo iske think tank hain woh most of the people are a good human beings. Theek hai. There is an there is a consistency ke agar aapko hamari company mein shayad kisi school, kisi education, kisi degree, kisi skill set ki consistency nahi milegi. Lekin jab aap mere jab mere aap jab mere pillars pe jayenge, aap C level pe jayenge aur aap unko different silos mein milenge na toh aapko yeh
Make sense. Thoda sa agar main peeche jaun before before Jinko Retail. Tell me a bit about you know you said you were born and bred in Dubai, wahi pe aapne schooling wagera ki. At what point aap Pakistan? I family puri Pakistan move hui ya aap higher education ke liye Pakistan aaye?
Okay. So, so the thing was hum jo hai woh middle class family se belong karte the. So, jaise maine parenting ki baat mein baat ki, most of the people at that time they were not able to afford the families outside of Pakistan. My father was doing a reasonable, my my my father was drawing a reasonable salary, but still because my mother was teacher, so she was an helping hand. Aur mere father aur mother ka hamesha se yeh tha ki hum kam kamayenge, humein plot nahi banane, humein wealth nahi banani kyunki hamare bache hamari wealth hain. So, we need to focus on them. So, yeh core objective tha. Toh jab 16 saal tak hum wahan pe rahe aur jab higher education ki baat aayi toh usmein thoda sa hamara family business mein hum struggle kar rahe the. Sort of it was a recession. Recession ke baad 2008 ke recession ke baad us tarah se stability was not there toh jis wajah se economical crisis ki wajah se we had to come came come back. Theek hai?
The entire family came back?
Entire family came back except my father. Theek hai? Toh jab hum jab hum wapas aaye, so obviously I was not
Aur wapas aap log Lahore mein aaye?
Nahi, wapas hum log aaye Islamabad mein. So basically I was from Islamabad and Islamabad mein bhi ek bada chota sa area hai, Rawalpindi ya Islamabad ke saath Wah Cantt aata hai. Theek hai? So that's something udhar aaye kyunki my grandfather was ex army aur woh phir Pakistan Ordnance Factory mein the. So we had our own house there. Toh matlab ek inherited house tha udhar. Toh wahan pe aaye toh it was a very limited area. Toh wahan pe maine ICOM kiya, phir maine BCOM kiya. Honestly speaking, I didn't knew what I am doing, what I want to do. I was not a bright of the student. I was like main bank bencher bhi nahi tha, lekin main bahut zyada genius bhi nahi tha, but generally main main main bas ja raha tha aur aa raha tha. Theek hai? Woh woh bas usmein. Lekin jab maine ICOM kiya, so I knew this thing ki I was a hustler. I want to be in the professional field. Toh mere jo uncle the, woh branch manager the HBL mein. So I started my first job as a retail sales officer, credit card bechne se back in like 2011. 2011-12 mein. Theek hai? Toh wahan se maine hustle jo hai woh start kar di. Lekin mujhe ek cheez pata tha ki main jo kar raha tha, main apne un pe kar raha tha na ghar walon se paise leke unka nuksan kar raha tha, na main jahan kaam kar raha tha unka nuksan kar raha tha. Bas main mujhe nahi pata tha ki main kya kar sakunga ya kya karne ke liye bana hai. Bas mujhe itna pata tha main hustle karta chala ja raha hoon. Toh maine bahut odd jobs ki. Halanki aisa nahi tha ki we were having a good decent amount jismein main walid sahab se leke kar sakta tha, lekin humein bachpan se ek cheez sikhayi gayi thi. Now coming connecting the dots ki bachpan se yeh dikhayi gayi sikhayi gayi thi ki yaar apne apne own pe khud karna hai. Theek hai? Aur woh andar ek sort of integrity, ek sort of aapki ki yaar koi problem nahi hai. Responsibility. Responsibility hai. Koi problem nahi hai. Aap degree mein ya university mein agar acha nahi kar college mein acha nahi kar pa rahe, so no problem. You are everyone is if if if anyone is in this world, usne kuch karna hai aur woh kuch banne ke liye aaya hai. Sirf woh ek cheez kar sakta hai ki woh hustle karna na chode aur woh na-umeedi mein na jaye. Theek hai? Woh apne aap ko logon se compare na kare. Agar yeh koi char paanch cheezein woh apne mind se nikal dega na toh uska automatically focus kuch karne pe hoga. Jab woh 10 cheezein seekh raha hoga, fail karega, jab woh 11th cheez pe pahunchega na toh woh 10 ki 10 cheezein uske 11th cheez pe impact daal ke ek ecosystem create kar dengi. Yeh jitne bhi successful log hain jo journey sunate hain toh hamesha yahin se aate hain ki koi Jack Ma hai toh woh pehle teacher tha, jo KFC wala hai woh pehle usne 45 ki age mein start kiya and everything. Amazon jahan se start hua, woh bookstore se start hua. Toh kahin na kahin se toh start hona tha na. So har kisi ki initial journey mein yeh hai ki bhai woh kahin na kahin se start hua. Theek hai? So the thing is ki main bhi start hua, maine as a retail sales officer credit card beche. Uspe main itna successful nahi ho saka. Phir uske baad main Dubai chala gaya. Main Dubai gaya toh mujhe Dubai ki living apne apne perspective se jo hai na woh itni interested nahi lagi. Mera Pakistan ke saath bahut zyada emotional connect ho chuka tha. Theek hai? Kyunki humne bachpan se jo hai generally we were with a less family people and all that stuff. So I started liking Pakistan. Toh jab Pakistan aaya phir uske baad maine as a general order supplier heavy industry Taxila mein tank ke parts bana ke supply kiye with my partner. Phir uske baad maine Leopard mein ek franchise le li. Phir uske baad maine ek restaurant mein investment kar di. Uske baad maine TCS mein as a as a supervisor kaam kiya udhar hi Wah Cantt mein. So maine bahut chote chote business, odd jobs ki. I was not successful. Kyun? Kyunki mujhe yeh baat mujhe yeh baat pata chali ki jo main degree mein nahi padh saka, woh main practical ground pe seekh raha tha. Kahin pe main banking seekha, kahin pe main operations seekha, kahin pe main logistics seekha, toh people management seekha. So main different courses, aap samjhein different courses, different subject, different semester log university mein laga rahe the, main field mein laga raha tha. So eventually jab 2016 tak journey aayi toh I was ready. So I guess ki meri journey mein meri journey mein jo fintech ke 4-5 jo e-commerce ke 4-5 pillars hain, toh fintech aur banking mein HBL se seekh ke aa gaya kyunki main wahan pe as a cash teller bhi tha, retail sales officer bhi tha kyunki maine do time HBL join kiya tha. Uske baad logistics mein TCS aur Leopard se seekh ke aa gaya tha aur uske baad overall business ya woh entrepreneur mindset jo tha mera woh restaurant ki aur general order supplier ki wajah se tha. Phir isi isi isi tarah jab main e-commerce mein aaya, Sapphire mein, so I was like well aware of each and everything. Theek hai? Toh main hamesha stand out karta raha, deliver karta raha, perform karta raha. I was a valuable asset to the team aur jab woh idhar se e-commerce ho raha tha toh main critical thinking, naye strategies banana, naye flows banana, apne seniors ko naye ideas pe guide karna toh woh ek confidence aana shuru ho gaya. Toh wahan sirf yeh pata chal gaya ki main e-commerce ke liye bana hoon aur main e-commerce karunga. Main ismein value add karunga, main ismein team banaunga aur apna apni betterment karunga. So I I have made a very tough decisions in my life ki jaise main ek aisi company mein tha e-commerce mein jahan main 70,000 PKR withdraw kar raha tha 2016-17 mein aur jab mere father retire hone wale the Dubai government pe toh udhar ek adjustment thi ki kisi bhi bete ko aap laga sakte hain. So maine 6-7 hazaar dirham ki job wahan pe chodi aur jab main e-commerce pe kaam kar raha tha mujhe bahut se brands pe 70,000 ki job ke upar 3-3 lakh ki bhi offers aayi but I did not took these offers because mujhe sirf ek cheez achi lag rahi thi ki jahan main baitha hoon wahan main 100 plus clients ke saath connect kar raha hoon. Toh mujhe exact woh dynamics pata chal rahe hain ki jismein e-commerce kahan jayega aur woh hum leke jayenge. Because Yeh kaunsi wali job thi aapki? Yeh basically main jab 2016 mein maine Sapphire mein as a customer customer services officer jab join kiya tha toh uske ek saal baad main ek company mein chala gaya tha as an manager aur udhar maine e-commerce mein so it was an agency. Theek hai? Jo agency logon ke liye websites bana rahi hai, jo agency logon ke liye products bana rahi hai. Ab yahan pe humne Shopify Plus ki agency level partnership le li, market ko market ko Shopify pe move karna shuru kar diya, unko product uploading se leke unke orders manage karna start kar diye, unki products manage karna start kar di, unko pura e-commerce sikhana shuru kar diya. So yeh woh yeh woh time tha. Theek hai? Jismein maine jismein mujhe jismein maine business development bhi ki, jismein maine nayi products bhi banayi aur phir later on Jinko ka idea bhi maine yahin pe drive kiya. From 2017 to 2019 tak chote chote jo plugins bane, e-commerce ko jo evolve karaya, grow karaya, massive number hits hue. Pakistan ki e-commerce year on year 97% ki growth pe chali gayi. Theek hai? Aur omni channel enable karna, logon ko one window solution dena, jo 500 order wala brand tha woh monthly 10,000 wale order wale brand mein convert hona shuru ho gaya. So yeh ek bada important ek baat bahut bada important jo growth thi woh 2017 se 2021 tak aayi kyunki usmein Covid ne bhi aake impact daal diya aur usko mazeed jo hai woh pump kar diya and there was a lot of growth. Toh usmein woh industry, woh area na chhodne ki wajah se I had a like lot of benefit. We find good team members, we find good people aur woh kehte hain na ki ache log milte gaye aur karwan chalta gaya. Toh that was something ki maza aaya. Allah ka shukar hai ki din raat kaam kiya, logon ka bhala kiya, apna bhala kiya. So industry ka bhala kiya, repute, credibility, all these stuff aur challenges aur stand out ki bahut si products, bahut si bahut se architecture aise bana ke diye ki hamare haath ke likhe hue hain. Bahut si terminologies aisi introduce ki jo ki e-commerce Pakistan mein hamari jo hai woh invention hai. Theek hai? So this was the whole journey overall jismein humne yeh numbers achieve kiye and we are like Yeh jo aapne 2019 ke andar aapne kaha Jinko maine start kiya, right? So my understanding is jis company mein aap us time pe kaam kar rahe the that was called the Alchemative. Yes, Alchemative. Which was later on acquired by Dimsync. Right. Alchemative mein you were there for for up until I believe 2020 2020 tak toh aap the full time. Haan, aise hi hai. Bilkul aise hi hai. Kaam kar rahe the. Jo main probably samajhna chah raha hoon, yeh samajhna chah raha hoon ki you know you you had a job at least Sapphire tak jo aapne bataya ki 70,000 rupaye ki job hai ya agli agli company mein bhi isi tarah se lagbhag job hai. Ab yeh that's that's enough money ki jismein aapki family sustain kar sakti hai ba-mushkil, jismein aap agar khud apna kharcha nikal rahe hain, thoda bahut aap ghar ke koi extra woh kar rahe hain. Agar aap shadi-wadi hai, bache hain toh phir toh bad scene hai 70,000 rupaye mein, right? Um usmein how did you go about ki yaar chalo theek hai mujhe yeh experience mil raha hai, exposure mil raha hai, mere paas kuch ideas aa rahe hain, jinko main ek sort of initially start karna shuru karta hoon, right? Ki mere paas mujhe pata hai, mujhe pura workflow pata hai, mujhe pata hai yahan pe problem hai. Toh main do engineer kyunki aapka khud ka engineering background toh nahi tha toh you had to hire someone to build a product to be able to sell it to someone. Um and that includes that requires a certain set of cost ki yaar usko maine tankha deni hai ya maine usko equity deni hai. Run me through the initial days of that company ki um aap saath saath naukri kar rahe the jisse aapke kharche pure ho rahe the. How were you investing? Kya aapne koi savings rakhi hui thi? Walid sahab se liya tha? Kyunki yeh bootstrap tha na? It's not you didn't go for a any sort of pre-seed or seed round. Uh toh how did that sort of happen? Okay. So uh uh very good question I guess ki yeh jo structuring hai yeh badi important hai. So the thing is ki jab maine start kiya na so main jab Sapphire se main Alchemative aaya toh main bada gradually position by position upar jana shuru hua aur I I started exploring myself. Pehle mujhe laga ki main pehle mujhe laga ki I am a good customer services representative. Phir mera thoda aur confidence badha toh mujhe laga I am a good operations person. Phir mera thoda aur confidence badha phir mujhe pata chala ki Alchemative mein aaya toh mujhe pata chala I am good in explaining product to a layman and a good connector between techies and the layman to the business. Theek hai? Toh yeh main gradually grow karta chala gaya. Ab isi grow karte hue hum kya kar rahe the, hum industry ke jitne bhi giants hain jo retail ke hain, unko online pe convert karna start kar rahe the. Jaise Sapphire ki online ki store bana rahe the, Ethnic ka bana rahe the, unke early days the, unke saath jo hai woh uth rahe the, baith rahe the. We were listening to their problems, we were working with them. Toh hua yeh ki we did not had like initial investment at that time. Lekin hum market ka masla samajhte chale ja rahe the. We needed one client or some sort of a trust of a client with us. Toh humne kya kiya isi company ke andar reh ke because I was heading 4 to 5 department after one year. Jaise main ek dedh saal ki meri journey mein because I said, acha mera ek bahut bada core raha hai whether I was in bank, whether I was in logistic companies, main jab ek department se start hota tha na toh main chaar char paanch paanch departments mein learning karne chala jata tha. Jaise agar main bank mein tha na toh main cash teller tha ya cash shorter se start karta tha toh main operation manager ki seat pe baith ke checkbooks bhi issue kar deta tha, unki salaries bhi transfer kar diya karta tha, auto loan bhi kar diya karta tha. Woh mera na ek self learning ka model hota tha. Isi tarah jab main TCS ki logistic company mein tha main overland service ka supervisor tha, lekin main overnight jo jo minute parcel aur deliveries unko bhi manage kar diya karta tha. Theek hai? Aur SQL mein main query bhi karne baith jaya karta tha. Toh jo mera core objective tha na ki main quick learner aur us learning mein bahut maza leta hota tha. Theek hai? Toh isi tarah jab main Alchemative mein bhi aaya toh usmein bilkul reasonable size ki company thi toh maine woh team build ki, maine log develop kiye aur maine market se business capture kiya within 3 to like within 1 to 2 years I was taking care of a company sort of like C level aur end to end saare departments mein manage kar raha tha. Like I was leading the billing, recovery department, business development department, marketing department, sales ka department, Shopify ki development ka department, plugin Shopify ke apps ka department. So I was the center point jidhar saare departments aake connect ho rahe the. Ab udhar na the problem was ki yaar yeh services toh bahut drain karti hai aapko aur agar aapko next step kuch lena chahiye toh what's next? What's next? Main apne aap se pucha karta tha. Then I thought ki yaar product banate hain, Shopify type product banate hain, Magento type product banate hain. So at that time I didn't knew ki product kaunsa banana hai. Toh hua yeh ki ek client hai woh aaya ki usne kaha main isko as a challenge face kar raha hoon. Toh yeh yeh mujhe chahiye. Toh jab humne dekha toh woh hamari mini plugins ko karke ek aur enhance version karke ek product banna tha. Toh humne kya kiya, humne usko ek better way mein produce karne ke liye hum apne ek client ke paas gaye. We asked them ki agar aap humein 4 million dete ho toh we will build the product aur I guarantee you ki jitna baki market humein jo hai one month mein de rahi hogi, aap one year mein de rahe hoge. Theek hai? So they had a they had a trust factor kyunki humne unko 90 lakh se services de de ke Shopify pe 90 lakh se monthly 32 crore monthly tak unka brand grow karaya tha. So they knew ki they these people are credible and they have the potential and the capacity. So aaj jisko woh seed, pre-seed, angel kehte hain, so hamara woh ek general customized model ban gaya. We did not gave equity aur we did not did a proper round or something. Humne usko existing model ko use karte hue incubate kiya product ko. Phir jab humne usko bana rahe the na, so this was the vision ki us pure cluster mein best UI UX ka banda isko design karega. The best technology person will be in this product. Because from day one we knew we will not build project, we will build product. So day one se uska architecture, day one se uski formation, day one se uski planning was at that time way ahead better. Aur woh team ko extract karke is tarah kar diya gaya ki these this team is going to build something jo ki market ko disrupt karega. We knew that at that time. At least I knew. At least I knew aur main mujhe pata hai ki jab main team ko yeh kehta tha ki we are going to build something jo aaj agar humein che che mahine suppose salary nahi hai ya tough decision hai kyunki at that time market mein recovery ke challenges the, kuch formation ke challenges the aur woh saari cheezein thi. So I said them ki agar hamara core would be ki agar hum saath connected ho ke karte rahe. Kisi ko badi achi jagahon se offer aati gayi, unhone apne aap ko compromise kiya, nahi gaye, is chote setup mein rahe because they saw some spark in themself. They saw them they saw some spark in me and a person driving the vision of something. Toh woh kehte hain na ki future pe bet karna the valuation relies something lies in the future. Theek hai? Ki future ko predict karna. So I guess ki we predicted future in a very right time. We took a very harsh decisions at that time jo ki abhi ke liye bahut ache decisions mein convert ho gaye. So we took a tough call at that time, all of us. It's not just me. Right. But yeh jo yeh jo branching out thi, this was happening within that company that you were working at? Ya was this a separate thing that you were doing all together? Nahi. So ismein so my objective every time was ki main jo karunga under one umbrella karunga. I do not wanted to manage two different things at a time aur woh bhi same nature ki because that's something which is not the honesty. Ki agar main kisi company mein kaam kar raha hoon technology ka aur main beshak main jo hai woh side hustle kar sakta hoon lekin meri usool mein yeh cheez nahi thi ki main outside of company same nature ka kaam karoon. Theek hai? So maine within company is cheez ko incubate kiya tha.
ke yaar hamara resource hai sara kuch hai. Um you were an employee but you were you have grown quite a lot but still you were essentially an employee over there, right? So how were you able to then branch it out and then create it as a singular entity? What was that uh eventually kya us company ki jo founding team hai kya unki equity hai is waqt aapke andar ya how does that sort of work?
Okay, uh very like relevant question. So the thing is ke when I played a very vital role in Alchemitive, so usme phir usme phir hua yeh ke uh with the founder of Alchemitive, uh there was an commitment ke aapko Alchemitive mein bhi equity milegi aur kyunke ab yeh nayi product ko uh incubate kar rahe hain, it's your think tank, it's your brain child. So isko Alchemitive mein karte hain and you have done a lot of work and all that stuff. So iska capitable banate hain then we had a discussion ke ispe meri itni equity hogi, aapki itni equity hogi and uh jointly consensus bana aur usme jo initially start hua so Alchemitive ki equity thi within Jinko aur meri bhi equity thi within Jinko and uh with my uh with my CTO as well. Theek hai, my equity and all. So later on jab humne isko grow kiya because uh Alchemitive became a sleeping partner sort of. Theek hai, so actively we were looking up to each and everything, we were managing each and everything. So uh later on we bought the uh equity from them or uh two years back and now this is something which is totally owned by us.
Makes sense. Humne buy out, humne buy out kiya hai. So humne Alchemitive ki jo equity, right, jo Alchemitive ki equity aapke paas thi, my understanding is they also got bought out and now their founder is a VP in another company. So um were you able to then liquidate your equity? Aapne woh phir deal kar li ke yaar ab aapki woh wali equity hum let go kar lete hain, yeh wali equity hum let go kar lete hain?
Haan, okay usme usme ek aur structuring thi. I took a decision ke main jab Alchemitive se Jinko ja raha hoon, I do not want my Alchemitive my equity in Alchemitive. I want skin in the game and I want my complete equity in Jinko. And so the thing is ke uske upar later on uh we mutually decided a number and we gave a good buy out, a reasonable buy out uh to the founder because we worked with each other. Uh that person gave us the platform and uh generally I'm thankful to the I'm thankful to the person and the journey we had with each other and we had our own ups and highs but at the end uh it was a good exit for all of us.
Amicable exit tha. I'll tell you why I ask this. Kyunki Pakistan mein na one of the biggest problems that we have as unfortunately as a low trust society is that kaafi dafa interesting cheezein emerge karti hain jab aap collaborate karte hain. Right? So uh shayad agar us time ke upar aapko woh space na milti Alchemitive mein um toh aapke paas shayad itne resources hi nahi the ke apne ideas ko aap convert kar paate into something more meaningful, right? Um masla yeh hota hai ke jab bhi is tarah ki collaboration ki baat aati hai toh har banda jo hai na woh yeh soch raha hota hai Pakistan jaise mulk ke andar ke yeh mujhe choona lagayega agla banda. Right? Aur jab aapki puri society choone wale mindset mein hoti hai na ke maine bhi apne aap ko protect karna hai, dusre ne bhi apne aap ko protect karna hai toh phir you are never able to trust each other and you are never able to sit down and collaborate. Aap constant fight and flight mode mein hote hain. Um more often than not jab is tarah ki partnerships hui bhi hain uh toh they have always been ek toh yeh zero sum game mein woh chali jaati hain jisme koi na koi ek jo hai woh saari ki saari uh uh woh le jaata hai, upside le jaata hai aur dusra jo hai woh bilkul hi faarigh ho jaata hai. Ya woh ek bahut hi uh you know uh like unamicable ya ek bade uh phadde phudde mein khatam hoti hain ke you know ladai ho gayi, jhagda ho gaya. So that's why I'm curious ke were you able to create an amicable settlement out of this where everybody was happy and you can still meet that gentleman today and and and he can be proud of what you've created?
Okay. So I guess uh in a nutshell pehle toh main yeh bata doon ke yes we both are uh in talking terms. We uh interact with each other. We discuss like lot of ideas. We help each other and it was a good happy happy exit for all of us. So there are two type of exits. One is ke thode bahut differences hain in uh to a strategy level. Theek hai ke how do you want to take company further? How do uh uh other person wants to take company further? There can be a difference in point of view. So my point is ke agar maine ek number, so me and you are partner. Theek hai? Aap powerful position, main powerful position pe chala gaya aur maine yeh kaha ke bhai agar aap nikloge toh main aapko x number doonga lekin main power mein hoon, main toh aapko isse 50% less pe doonga. Theek hai? So that's something yeh choone wali category hai. That's something which is not fair, which is not equality. But jo ek reasonable number dono parties ka agree hua tha usme that was something ke uspe I was one jisne kaha tha this is neutral number. Anyone can take a call. Theek hai? Aisa nahi tha ke main power mein tha so I was the CEO and I was having a grip over the market, I was having a grip over the uh team and my intention was to ke kisi ko low end kiya jaaye ya kisi ki just because having control, just because having power to utilize it in a bad way ke kisi ki value ko devalue kiya jaaye and all that stuff. No. Uh I'm I can proudly say this thing ke jo mujhe market ne advices di and all that stuff, I told them ke aaj yeh matter nahi karti because at that time whatever the reason was, whatever the scenario was, I helped them, they helped me but the platform was there. The platform was given by Alchemitive. We were their employees. So maine us number ko itna decent and itna reasonable kiya ke jispe maine kaha main bhi exit lene ko tayar hoon. So that's something uh yeh it's proven. Uh we can go further in the detail by completing all these things. Uh my uh like sort of inner soul is totally satisfied because I know at the end I always took I always take my decision by looking up to my grave. Theek hai? Ke main jab death bed pe jaunga toh mujhe 110% yeh confirm hai ke maine kisi ke saath galat nahi kiya hoga just because over the money and all. Theek hai? So it was a good exit.
Makes sense. Uh before I go forward and I want to dive deeper into uh Jinko exactly ke woh kya kar raha hai, business modeling kya hai, um sara kuch kya hai. There are a few things generally main aaj kal maine recently shuru ki apni conversations mein ke I try to give like a summary of what I've abhi tak learned and and and found interesting in the conversation. Um I think jo jo ek cheez again bahut saare young log sun rahe hote hain, kaafi dafa logon ko samajh nahi aati ke woh is conversation se kya nikalen. Young log hote hain, main bhi agar 18-20 saal ka hota toh main bas story sun raha hota, story maze ki hoti, main aage nikal jaata lekin um over time aapko samajh aati hai ke in cheezon ki kitni power hai. I think jo sabse important cheez hai woh yeh hai ke everybody is trying to find a hack uh ke yaar maine uh kaunsa mujhe yeh you know Ubaid bhai koi aisa hack bata dein jisse main apna paisa double karke na ameer ho jaaun, maala maal ho jaaun. I think jo biggest hack hai na jo maine bade uh uh uh saare bade powerful successful logon se seekha hai woh values hain. Um I cannot stress on this enough uh ke human values uh jo hai woh woh ek aisi cheez hai jo itni aasani se nahi aati, woh bahut ek internally uh bachpan se agar aapke parents ne banayi hui hain, aapki jo overall family hai usne banayi hui hain uh toh woh aapke andar hoti hain aur long longevity and sustainability human values mein uh jitni hai utni kisi aur hack mein aapko nahi milegi. For example, Ubaid bhai ne kuch earlier mention kiya, unhone patience mention kiya, unhone uh you know optimism mention kiya, gratitude mention kiya, main aur ne bhi mention ki. Uh patience bada zaroori hai. Aap honestly jo is waqt chal chuka hai na uh ya trigger happy kisam ka reels pe aage jaate jaao aur phir ek reel bata rahi hai ke $10,000 aise kamane aur agli reel bata rahi hai ke yun maine kar diya aur 5 million bana liye aur aap bas reelein dekhe ja rahe hain aur aap actual mein ek idea se idea se idea pe jump kar rahe hain rather than actually focusing on one thing and failing a few times before you find success. Uske andar ek certain patience chahiye jo ke again ek badi inherent value hai for success. Isi tarike se optimism ki agar hum baat karein toh pura mulk is time ke upar jo hai na is baat pe ro raha hai ke yaar sab tabah ho gaya, koi fayda nahi hai, koi future nahi hai. Main aapko very honestly bataun, main bilkul agree karta hoon, halaat bade kharab hain, uh gurbat bahut zyada badh rahi hai, joblessness bahut zyada hai. Lekin jo bhi main jo bhi baat hai woh sabke liye nahi hai, lekin in tamam bure halaat mein there are always people who will find success. 1929 ka global recession ho jaaye, Pakistan ke jitne bhi darmiyaan mein boom bust cycles aaye hain, I've always found ke usme hamare paas log aise nikle jinhone unhi adversities ko uh opportunities mein convert kiya and the only reason they were able to do that is ke jab market ki awaaz jo hai woh bilkul negative hai, usme aap baith ke negativity mein na phansein balki aap is cheez ko realize karein ke you know what, aaj ke halaat jo bhi hain, aage behtar time aayega, tab aap apni effort aur apni direction us taraf lagate hain. And then jo sabse I think powerful cheez unhone boli woh gratitude thi. Uh jo ke I feel like is really missing. Bada easily log aake kehte hain ke yaar hamare toh halaat kharab hain, hamare paas toh jo hai na opportunity nahi hai, hamara toh baap koi bada aadmi nahi tha, jiski wajah se hum successful nahi ho sakte. Again aapne apne dimag ko apne aap ko khud ek cage mein band kar liya. Aapne kaha ke yaar mera toh mera toh scene meri auqaat hi yeh hai, aapne khwab bhi dekhna chhod diye. Aapne woh saara toh ek end of the spectrum mein aap jo hai jo bhi aapke paas hai aap uske upar ungrateful ho rahe hain, aap keh rahe hain ke yaar mera toh I I have less than what I deserve and that is the reason why I am unsuccessful. Uh but saath hi gratitude jab aap lekar aate hain na ke whatever I have is Allah ka shukar hai, it's great and woh up and down ho sakta hai relatively. Aap mujhe dekh ke keh sakte hain ke yaar tu burger hai, tere paas itna kuch tha toh is wajah se tu yeh baatein kar raha hai. Lekin main aapko guarantee deke kehta hoon jo bhi mujhe yeh baat bol raha hoga uske niche 10 log hain jo usko dekh ke keh rahe hain ke yaar tu burger, tu kya baatein kar raha hai kyunki relative hota hai. Aapke niche bhi log hote hain, aapke upar bhi log hote hain. Har banda apne hisaab se na upar wale ko dekh ke gaaliyan de raha hota hai, niche wale ko dekh ke woh kar raha hota hai. Toh gratitude har level pe aa sakta hai uh aur jab aapke paas gratitude aata hai uske baad jaakar ke aap khwab dekhna shuru karte hain. Aap yeh nahi kar sakte ke aap sadte rahein, jalte rahein aur phir baith ke khwab dekhna shuru karein. Wahan se aapki buniyad hi phir galat hoti hai. Jo ek cheez pehle bhi hamari ek conversation hui thi uh uh abhi recently jisme humne explore kiya bahut saare log jo hai na Asfand yaar ke saath in fact hui thi, who is a content creator. Um yeh cheez baar baar log hamesha kehte hain ke yaar maine Pakistan se bahar jaana hai toh woh is soch se keh rahe hote hain ke bas maine mulk chhodna hai, Pakistan toh bura hai aur maine bas bahar jaana hai kyunki wahan pe koi na ware nyare ho jaayenge mere, main koi magic kar loonga. The fact of the matter is ke jab aapne agar Pakistan se bahar jaana hai toh aapne kareeb purpose ke liye jaana hai aur Ubaid bhai ne badi achi baat boli yahan par jisme unhone bola ke yaar main har kisi ko encourage karta hoon ke apne bachon ko travel karwayein. Main har kisi ko parents ko encourage karta hoon ke woh zaroor bahar jaayein. Because jo actual reason hai na bahar jaane ka woh exposure hai, woh paisa nahi hai. Woh yeh nahi hai ke aap maala maal ho jaayenge ya aapka general lottery lag jaayegi. In fact kaafi dafa badi mushkil halaat hote hain, Ubaid bhai ne bataya wahan par jo majority Pakistani Middle East mein baitha hua hai, aapko dekh lag pata jaayega jis halaat mein woh jin mushkilat mein woh hote hain. Lekin uh uh at least woh wahan jaakar ke ek safety and security ke environment mein apne aap ko bahut saari different diversity ke saath expose karte hain jiski wajah se unko ek ek exposure jo milta hai na woh usse woh ideas aate hain, usse unko problem solving ke mukhtalif tareeke aate hain. And then one last thing uh aur aur yahi wajah hai ke agar bahut saare parents lage hue hain daud mein ke yaar sab ki daud lagi hui hai ke beacon house mein bacha jaaye, wahan pe jaake a grade le le toh woh saare ek hi jaise zombies hain. Agar aap thoda sa bache ko unique banayenge na wahan par ek unique selling point aata hai ke yaar yeh bacha jo hai iske andar exposure different hai, kuch different baat kar sakta hai. Jahan pe saare ke saare robot ki tarah ek hi baat kar rahe hain toh yeh bacha jo hai na woh ek nayi fresh uh idea, fresh thought lekar aa sakta hai. Jaise products mein hota hai usi tarah se bachon mein bhi unique selling point bada zaroori hai. But jo last uh I think cheez uh aur aur badi powerful thi uh badi important thi uh woh yeh thi ke jo experience agar aap inka sunenge na, halanki ek ladka bahar se aaya hua hai, theek hai? Bahar se aaya hua hai, pehle bhi aise bada woh hota hai you know softy sa hota hai uh aur unhone khud yeh baat boli bhi ke hum thode se idealistic se the, hum thode se soft se the. Toh technically woh jo ladka bahar se aayega na woh aayega aur woh bada apne khayal se karega. Woh kahega yaar mujhe achi naukri chahiye, dekho main wahan pe toh main toh Dubai se aaya hua hoon aur Dubai se aap aate hain toh waise bhi aapko log zara na ache woh karte hain ke yaar woh Dubai return hai, UK return hai. Lekin aap inka woh track record dekhein ke inhone uh kyunke yeh again bahar se aaye hue the, bahar yeh wale falsafe nahi hain jo Pakistan mein hain. Afsar ka ek alag kaam hai, working class ka ek alag kaam hai toh hum apne kaam bhi us hisaab se choose karte hain ke yaar uh you know main meri kya auqaat mere dimag mein hai aur mujhe woh kaam chahiye, chahe woh afsar class ho, chahe woh dusri class ho jo ke apna sochti nahi hai. Toh inhone kaha yaar mujhe I don't really care like mujhe koi bhi kaam mile, mujhe jaana hai jaake sales ka kaam karna hai, maine sales ka kaam karna hai, maine bank teller lagna hai, maine bank teller lagna hai, maine e-commerce mein jaana hai, maine karna hai. Koi bhi kaam acha bura nahi hota, main baar baar logon ko yeh baat batata hoon. Having said that, jo isme insight mili na, jo unhone bade ache khubsurat tareeke se bola ke yaar aap degree mein jaake chaar saal lagayein, BBA karein jaake. Brain dead kisam ka, I'm not saying degrees are bad, there's a lot to learn there as well. But without actual real world exposure aapko koi dedh rupaye ka fayda nahi hota. Agar aap aaj degree kar bhi rahe hain, achi baat hai aap degree kar rahe hain, aapke paas time hai, privilege hai ke aap baith ke you know educate kar rahe hain apne aap ko, saath aap jaakar ke bottom of the pyramid jaayein aur jaake industries mein ghusein, aapko jo learning hogi na woh aapko manager banke kabhi bhi nahi hogi. Jo ke har bacha khaskar badi university ka nikalta hai aur woh kehta hai yaar manager level position aaye, main chaar logon ko bolun ke bhai aapka manager laga hua hai, dhai lakh rupaye ki salary hai. Bhai aapko kaam hi koi nahi aata toh title lagane se dedh rupaye ka koi fayda nahi hai, aapki izzat long term mein koi nahi hogi. Toh that's abhi tak jo meri learning hui hai uh from the personal story, um I think these are very very important things. Yeh generally market mein koi iske baare mein baat nahi karta, they don't sell. Uh sell yahi karti hai ke yeh mera hack hai digital marketing ka, isse maine overnight 10 million dollars bana liye. But the fact is that's all bullshit. Uh is tarah paise nahi bante. Paisa banta hai grit se, hard work se aur continuously, patiently kaam kar karke kar karke kar karke prove karke ke yaar mera my thing works. Um maine abhi tak jo suna main main iske notes le raha tha Ubaid bhai. Uh now I'll come to to to to to the company itself and and really aaj ki tareekh mein Jinko kar kya raha hai?
Okay. Right. So main agar isko uh uh jisko samajh nahi aayi because you it's it's so diverse ke uh uh you know aapne bahut saari baatein boli, badi simple simple tareeke se nahi boli and I'm curious ke jo aapka um overall product hai, agar main usko simplify karoon um ghaliban aapne Junaid bhai ki podcast mein bhi yeh kiya hai. I I found that very interesting but for my audience as well. Main agar kehta hoon ke yaar ek main e-commerce ka brand hoon aur logon ko e-commerce bhi agar main simplify karke samjhaun, mere paas meri naani jo hai na woh kuch kapde seeti hain aur maine kaha hai ke yaar woh kapde jo hai na woh ab unhone kaha naani ne chaar log rakh liye hain aur woh bahut saare seekh ke pure khandan walon ko bhejti hain. Main kehta hoon yaar bade khubsurat kapde hain, main isko online daal ke 50,000 logon ko bech sakta hoon agar you know main market access ho jaaye. Mujhe dedh rupaye ka kuch idea nahi hai. Ab mujhe batayein ke Jinko retail isme kidhar play karta hai jab ek aisa banda jisko dedh rupaye koi e-commerce ka idea filwaqt nahi hai, usko aap simplify karke agar explain kar sakein.
Dekhein Muzamil bhai usme uh point yeh hai ke agar main isko bilkul laymen terms pe leke chalun na toh number one category woh hai jinko abhi e-commerce ka idea nahi hai. Theek hai? Hmm. Unke liye meri baatein bahut mushkil hongi. Theek hai? Hmm. Woh isko na sunein toh behtar hoga kyunke woh difficult ho jayega. Theek hai? Kyunki the thing is hum kya karte hain jab aap kehte ho maine online pe kuch bechna hai toh aap Shopify pe ya WordPress pe jaate ho, aap apni products ko list karte ho, pages wagera banate ho aur ready kar dete ho. Ab aapne dukan bana li, dukan saja li. Sahi ho gaya? Acha ab jaise hi aap phir karte ho marketing karte ho Facebook ke through, Meta ke through uh jab aap yeh karte ho toh jaise hi aapko order aate hain. Acha ab jo Shopify ho gaya, WordPress ho gaya yeh inke paas woh cash on delivery wali integration nahi hoti ke order aa gaye, ab inko calls kaise karni hai, inko SMS bhej ke approval kaise lena hai ke yeh chahiye bhi ya nahi chahiye, uske baad yeh karna ke kisi customer ne order edit karna hai, order ko change karna hai, woh kaise hoga? Phir uske baad is customer pe agar pichle 10 order isne nahi liye toh yeh yeh lega ya nahi lega, usko zyada call ki jaaye ya koi two factor lagaya jaaye, jo bhi. Haan yeh customer hai, isne 10 dafa order place kiya aur har dafa leta hai toh call karke paise na zaya kiye jaayein, bheja jaaye kyunke probability of delivery zyada hai. Phir uske baad couriers ki automation karna, matlab courier kaise? Aapke paas TCS bhi hai, aapke paas Leopard bhi hai, aapke paas MNP bhi hai. Ab kaunsi city kisko deni hai, business ka load kaise divide karna hai, paid order kisko dene hain, yeh sab rules lagte hain na? Toh jab yeh rules lagte hain toh upar se jab order gir rahe hain, gir rahe hain, gir rahe hain funnel mein, ab woh automation pe aage ja rahe hain taake aapko Excel use na karni pade, paanch paanch windows na kholni pade, baar baar Shopify na kholna pade, baar baar logistics ke portal khol ke manual uh booking na karni pade, phir phir uske baad pick pack ship ka process hai, fly scanning karni hai, phir yahi agar kisi ke paas ERP hai ke uski production, supply chain, planning ek alag system pe hai toh automatically inventory wahan se laani hai aur isi tarah order laana hai taake jitni inventory utne orders aur beech ka pura process chalna hai. Sahi hai? Toh yeh saare kaam yeh saare kaam hamara system karke deta hai jisme teen cheezein hoti hain. Ek sabse pehle one window solution hai ke aapko na Shopify kholna hai order management ke liye, inventory management ke liye aur pure post order management journey ke liye, na apni ERPs kholni hain, na courier ke portal kholne hain, na aapko Telco ki uh windows kholni hain aur saare logs, saari detailing, puri journey order ke aane ke baad se leke order return aane tak aur warehouse mein khul ke wapis replenish hone tak yeh sab ka jo software aur screens hain woh Jinko deta hai. Phir isi tarah yeh hai unke liye Right. So agar main isko simplify karke explain kar sakun, ek hai kariyaane ki dukan aur ek hai Metro Cash and Carry. Metro Cash and Carry I think haan Metro Cash and Carry, Carrefour hai mukhtalif shehron mein. Aap kariyaane ki dukan mein jaate hain toh ek banda hai, usne bas maal aur idhar udhar se source karke rakh diya hai, uske dimag mein bas chal raha hai, woh maal bech raha hai, paise kama raha hai, apni jeb mein daalta hai, agle mahine ka kaam chalata hai, koi ledger ledger koi nahi hai, koi POS nahi hai. Metro Cash and Carry pe aap jaate hain, it's an entire world, right? Uske peeche itne saare employees hain, uh bahut saari cheezein uh us pe perfectly kaam kar rahi hain, supply chain puri kaam kar rahi hai ke Metro Cash and Carry kaam karta hai. E-commerce ki duniya mein aapne effectively yahi baat ki, aapne yeh kaha ke yaar jo kariyaane ki dukan wala hai na usko is waqt sirf aur sirf passionate hona chahiye aur usko bechna shuru karna chahiye just to see ke yaar woh bech bhi sakta hai ya nahi kar sakta. Woh usko baith ke aaj woh Metro Cash and Carry ke khwab sochega na toh woh phir baith jaaye. Right? Ya ek chai ka dhaba koi khol raha hai aur woh agar McDonald's ke khwab sochega toh woh nahi chal sakta, woh puri zindagi khwab hi sochta rahega, woh pehle toh ek chai ka dhaba toh khole na, dekhe business kar sakta hai ya nahi kar sakta. Jaise jaise aap grow karte hain and again mera teen saal ka e-commerce ka dhai teen saal ka e-commerce ka experience tha toh yeh tamam baatein jo aapne boli hain woh mujhe bilkul samajh aa rahi hain kyunke jab aap kaam shuru kar dete hain aur actually success aana shuru ho jaati hai tab aapko yeh masail aate hain, scale mein masail aate hain, optimization mein masail aate hain, inefficiencies mein masail aate hain, ya toh aapko paise aapke kharch hona shuru ho jayenge, aapko zaroorat se zyada paise kharch ho rahe honge ya aapka time zyada lag raha hoga jiski wajah se aap ek certain point se zyada orders process hi nahi kar sakte kyunke you know aapko bahut zyada effort lag rahi hai. Wahan par basically aapko different different tools aur softwares ki zaroorat padti hai to optimize. Just to understand what you're doing is aap un tamam tools ko unify karke ek single platform de rahe hain aur aap keh rahe hain ke you know what, aapne sirf hamare platform pe aana hai. uske baad uske aage jo multiple platform ki requirements hain chahe woh marketing ki requirements hon chahe woh order management ki requirements hon chahe woh inventory ki hon sara kuch ho woh hamara hi software karega aisa hi hai?
aisa hi hai. Acha yeh jo hai na primarily this is over one of the known product jiske saare major numbers aur yeh saari cheezein hain sahi hai aur generally post order management solution jo ke is market ke accordingly banaya gaya hai jo aapne bada detail mein explain kar diya hai sahi hai aur dusra usme yeh hai ke hamari segment kya hai? Hum yeh kehte hain ke koi bhi aisa store owner jiske mahine ke 500 se zyada order hain uske liye hum affordable hain kyunki hum startup se leke SME se leke enterprise tak saron ke liye affordable solution hai aur hamara bada bada normal claim hai. Aap agar humein lete ho hum aapko paise apne khud poore karke denge aur hum aapko justify karke denge ke humne aapke paise kahan kahan kaise bachaye. Aap usme aapke jo end consumer hai uski satisfaction hai uski retention hai order tracking right time pe dena hai theek hai aapki jo 6 ke baad bhi orders auto approve ho rahe hain certain criterias pe kyunki 6 ke baad toh aapko bande bithaoge toh aapko jo hai infra ki cost lagegi logon ki cost lagegi theek hai un logon ko help karna guide karna overall is system ke through phir sabse bada jo angle hai enterprise ke liye woh hai omni channel multi channel pe selling so suppose aapki aasaan lafzon mein aapki 10 outlets hain un 10 ki 10 outlets pe karodon ki inventory padi hai aur ek warehouse pe aap online pe inventory daalte hain toh ho sakta hai woh 10 ki 10 outlets beshak covid hai beshak lockdown hai beshak koi jo hai idhar protest chal raha hai ya kuch bhi chal raha hai ya ho sakta hai physical movement nahi ho rahi jaise aaj kal Lahore mein smog hai ya kuch hai lekin logon ko cheezein toh chahiye so what we do hum ise omni channel kehte hain omni channel ka matlab hum 10 ke 10 stores ki inventories automatically fetch karte hain Shopify pe apne platform commerce pe ya un jagahon pe le jaate hain phir jaise hi order aata hai nearest location best possible location zyada split na hon agar split ho rahe hain toh limited hon toh hum kya karte hain hum unke retail ko enable kar dete hain as a fulfillment center theek hai jisme inventory ka quantum badh jaata hai.
Interesting so for example main kehta hoon ke sapphire hai sapphire kyunki yeh cheez aapne badi interesting boli kyunki aaj se 2 saal pehle ghaliban maine jab conversation ki thi toh mujhe yeh pata laga ke retail ka jo maal hai usko abhi tak e-commerce se connect nahi kiya gaya so hamesha e-commerce ka maal separate hai woh peeche karkhane mein pada hua hai aur agar e-commerce kaafi dafa aise hota hai na cheez viral ho jaati hai koi influencer ne becha aur woh jo hai ji ab woh log baithe usko order karna chaah rahe hain peeche aapne 10 rakhe hue the 25 20 jo hain woh retail mein pade hue hain ab woh 10 jaise hi out of stock hue woh out of stock ho gaye toh us time pe unhone yahi bola unhone kaha yaar bada complicated hai how do you manage ke yaar retail se maine uthana hai utha karke wapas kar lena hai ho sakta hai us opportune moment ke upar jis waqt online bhi ek banda khareed raha hai aur us time ke upar ek khatoon jo hai na woh pakad ke us pe counter pe khadi hui hain toh it's a it's a tougher problem to solve right? Are you saying ke ab hum woh bhi solve kar rahe hain ke jisme agar 25 maal retail ka pada hua hai toh woh retail outlet wala ladka jo hai jaise hi order aata hai woh jaayega jaake usko uthaayega pack karega aur rakh dega ke yaar yeh shaam ko aake fulfillment wale le jaayenge yeh e-commerce pe hi nikal jaayega isko hum customer ko nahi de sakte?
yeh hum solve kar chuke hain theek hai yeh hum solve kar chuke hain isme obviously 100 se zyada brand hamare saath omni pe hain aur jitne bhi yeh enterprise hain inki different locations jaise main high level aapko ek flow bata deta hoon jo ke lay man ke liye bhi aasaan nahi hogi usko samajhne ke liye aur enterprise walon ke liye bhi dekhein aapki 10 outlets hain 10 mein inventory padi hai hum kya karte hain jo hum aapko system dete hain usme buffers bhi lag jaate hain ke agar aapke ek shop mein 10 ki inventory hai toh 5 jaaye sirf aage so suppose agar ek mein available nahi thi toh dusre mein chali jaayegi so at a run time pe agar kya itna bada jiska network hai toh uski opportunity usko opportunity yeh milti hai ke agar uske 50 crore ka maal hai aur woh online chala jaata hai theek hai toh usme uska sell through utna bhi rahe toh uski inventory liquidate zyada ho jaati hai sahi hai toh uske paas do channel ho jaate hain selling karne ke liye phir usme hum yeh bhi karte hain ke agar Lahore ka order hai toh Lahore ki nearest location pe jaake koi commerce ke through bhi deliver ho sakta hai theek hai agar kisi ko express delivery chahiye woh bhi humne enable kar di hai sahi hai phir isi tarah order ka post hona multiple orders ka split hona consumer ke saath poori communication hona whatsapp pe communication hona matlab there are there are a lot of automation ke agar aaj aap bolenge na ke omni mein yeh challenge hai main bolunga yeh hal ho chuka hai aap bolenge omni mein yeh challenge tha main bolunga yeh hal ho chuka hai main aapko woh woh number bataunga ke woh brand jo 2 crore kar rahe the aaj online 20 20 25 25 crore kar rahe hain sell through wahi hai sirf apne channels ko right way mein utilize kar rahe hain phir isi mein sale channel bhi hum le aaye hain ke agar yeh 10 outlets hain 10 outlets ka same number daraz pe bhi dikha do lam pe bhi dikha do online pe bhi dikha do toh selling ke through probability bhi sell ho rahi hai retail se bhi bik raha hai wholesale se bhi bik raha hai so it is it's something ke poore ecosystem ko automate karke risk factor business ka kam kar diya.
Interesting. Isme mujhe yeh batayein ke kitne players hain is waqt market mein jo ke yeh is space mein actually woh kar rahe hain aur aap agar apne aap ko scale karenge aap kaunse number pe apne aap ko laayenge?
hum isme alhamdulillah pehle number pe hain without any competition kyunki dekhein jo true omni hai woh karne hain enterprise ne jinke paas 10 15 20 100 200 outlets hain jaise bata hamara customer hai unki 450 outlets hain it's one of the true multinational brand in Pakistan theek hai phir limelight hai ethnic hai outfitter hai uske baad aapka yeh woh shoe mein borjan hai aur brands hain toh yeh sab omni kar rahe hain hamare saath phir mini miners, angja, shinayr, layer club, shana mein yeh woh hain just to share an interesting fact ke 5 saal pehle se they had a vision ke humne dedicated warehouse nahi karna toh inki 100 se zyada outlets pe they do not have a dedicated warehouse yeh total rely karte hain so this is the future you do not need to bear the cost of the warehouses you need to have a fulfillment center generally jo retail mein aapke fulfillment centers hain unko manage karna hai so it's a retail with the online warehouse jo jo aapko cost effective hai.
Yeh jo bahut saare zaahir hai MNCs baithe hue hain aur yeh retail ke upar exist karte the toh inhone at some point digitization ke zumre mein inhone apne POS ko bhi digitize kiya centralized kar diya um unke apne softwares lage hue honge kuch ka SAP laga hoga kuch ka aur laga hoga jo aapka you know har badi company ka aur khas kar jo aapke strength hai woh aapke enterprise hai har badi company ke paas koi na koi SAP ka system laga hai um you know salesforce ka system laga hai kahin marketing tool lage hue hain sara kuch hai. Aap kya kar rahe hain? Aap basically real time pe integrations banate hain aur bana karke apne central us pe kar lete hain ya aap jaate hain aur jaake kehte hain ke you know what ab aap ab agar aap jinko pe aa rahe hain toh ab aapka POS bhi jinko hai aapka marketing ka bhi jinko hai har cheez jinko hai right? Like kyunki aapne kaha ke humne magento ka alternative ek front bhi bana diya hua hai is time ke upar. Humne jo hai woh peeche se peeche ka jo hum sara kar rahe hain engine woh toh kar hi rahe hain. So what is the product offering here and is it like a full suite and then people can choose ke yaar humein yeh chahiye yeh nahi chahiye yeh hamara already hai and agar toh log choose kar sakte hain toh uske andar phir does it not get very complicated ke yaar ab ek naya client aaya usne customize solution banaya hua tha 40 saal se uska legacy 20 saal se legacy solution chal raha hai aur woh keh raha hai mujhe toh yahi solution chahiye iske peeche mujhe e-com ka aapka solution chahiye toh phir uske liye toh aapko customize usko usko poori you know sort of integration bana ke deni padegi how does that sort of work?
Okay so Muzamil the thing is ke hum yeh feel karte hain ke merchant should select jo unka problem hai toh hum usme yeh karte hain ke jo hamari 2 to 3 products hain yeh ek different verticals hain aur yeh isolation mein hai aasaan lafzon mein aap kehte hain main shopify se khush hoon aur main apne microsoft dynamics se khush hoon theek hai ab jo hamari unbeatable product hai na market mein woh jinko hai toh jinko har kisi ko chahiye hi chahiye jo post order management solution hai toh yeh connector hai hamari jo DNA mein ingrained hai na ya jo hamari core speciality hai woh hai integration koi bhi system laake do beshak woh amazon hai walmart hai duniya ka koi bhi product hai hum API's ke through XML's ke through inko connect kar dete hain aur is tarah connect karte hain ke usme seamless way mein jo hai existing systems ke saath hi aap sara kaam chala rahe hote ho yeh hai ideal solution ab aap kehte ho yaar main jinko use kar raha hoon ab mujhe store front chahiye mujhe shopify se yeh yeh yeh masle hain ya main kehta hoon ke shopify aapko expensive pad raha hai shopify aapko payment gateway pe bhi charge kar raha hai pay transaction pe bhi charge kar raha hai phir aap 15 plugins bhi le rahe ho phir aap uske baad uske baad aap jo hai isko customize bhi nahi kar pa rahe ho toh phir main kehta hoon jaise alpha mall by bank alfalah hai woh hamara one of the non customer the largest banking e-commerce marketplace jo ke totally prepaid hai ab woh magento pe thi humne commerce by jinko retail pe unko leke aaye jinko bhi udhar hi toh woh ek ecosystem ban gaya toh woh jab aap ek hi company ki multiple products karte ho toh woh integration nahi hai woh ek unified product hai so woh hum wahan dete hain jahan pe use case hai jahan pe merchant ka fayda hai jahan pe business ka fayda hai theek hai jaise jitni bhi market places hain woh commerce by jinko retail unke liye relevant hai theek hai phir usi tarah jisne customize karna hai humne hyper personalization de di hai checkout ke upar hi ke jaise aapne agar humne AI ko incorporate kar diya apne commerce by jinko retail jo store front hai jo shopify aur magento mein nahi hai jo hamare native system pe hai ke hum aapko woh skin dikhayenge ke humein pata hai ke Muzamil jab bhi aata hai woh red color ki shirt leta hai non sale product pe leta hai toh woh dynamic skin ban jaayegi automatically ke jo aapki non sale hai theek hai aur jo sale wala hai usko sale pe through kiya jaayega phir humein yeh bhi pata chal jaata hai ke AI ke through ke 10 second ke baad user bounce bounce rate badhne laga hai toh udhar hum kehte hain ke yeh woh trigger hai ke isko offer kar do koi discount theek hai so uski humne commerce by jinko retail ke upar humne hyper personalization ko day one pe enable kar diya so you will you will be amazed of this thing ke humne 30% of the conversion ko checkout se pehle hi increase kar diya hai. Checkout se pehle hi humne 30% of conversion ko increase kar diya hai kyunki we understand the funnel of a consumer theek hai ke woh kya chaah raha hai kab ka chaah raha hai agar winter hai so suppose example hai Pakistan mein kuch jagahon pe winter chal raha hota hai kuch jagahon pe summer chal raha hota hai toh hota kya hai ke jab ek hi static website khulegi toh Karachi walon ko lagega ke yaar hamare yahan toh summer chal raha hai yeh log winter bhej rahe hain iska matlab hai summer bik gaya hai ya summer nahi hai ya purane articles hain aur suppose northern side pe lag raha hoga jab summer chal raha hoga toh unko lag raha hoga ke inke paas ab winter nahi hai so humne woh mindset hai na toh psychologically in triggers ko hum understand karte hain because of the data by utilizing the data by using our own pixel hum is journey ko uske touch points ko utilize karke aap samjhein if there is a traffic or a session of a 1 million customer so system is creating 1 million automatically dynamic skin.
Interesting. Yeh jo hai yeh aap sirf aur sirf apne jo aapka store front hai alpha mall wala for example sirf aap uske through kar pa rahe hain ya are you able to gather gather this insight for other jahan par aap for example peeche management kar rahe hain na kyunki my understanding is ke jo shopify wagera koi platform hai woh shopify pe chal raha hai usne peeche jo apni order management hai aur woh saari cheezein uske liye toh aapko rakha hua hai lekin wahan par aapke paas probably yeh insight nahi aayegi wahan par aapke paas sirf aur sirf orders ki insight aayegi ke kaunsa order aa raha hai kis ilaqe se aa raha hai ya wahan pe bhi you are able to gather deeper insights on on the actual customers who are coming in?
Yeah exactly so the thing is there are two type of there are two type of data layers jiske upar yeh kaam kar raha hai so aaj aap mere paas aaye commerce ke liye mere paas aapka koi data nahi lekin maine kaha day one pe main aapka pixel laga doonga jab main day one pe apna custom pixel laga doonga toh main yeh dekhunga heat map hot jar hamare apne hain push notification hamari apni hai woh itna poora complete ecosystem hai toh suppose Muzamil ki website ke upar 3 log aaye the 3 mein se 2 is section pe gaye hi nahi toh hum automatically us section ko change kar dete hain theek hai aap se humein poochne ki zaroorat nahi hai aur kal ko aap poochhenge yeh kyun ho raha hai toh hum bolenge backed by data hai toh uske upar jaise example hai red color ka product hai toh uske upar jaise facebook aasaan lafzon mein facebook aapka pixel train karta hai theek hai woh yeh cheez toh dekh raha hota hai ke inki product kaunsi achi hai kitni inventory ki depth hai kitni color ki depth hai from the consumer perspective is is brand ka kaun kya khareed raha hai toh hum aapki website ke upar yeh kar denge ke aapki website yeh aapka marketing ka tool banti chali jaayegi aur aapki conversion better ho jaayegi aur har bande ko personalize feel aana shuru ho jaayegi ek hi hai. Dusra jo main data bol raha hoon woh yeh hai ke aapke checkout ke upar humein pata chala ke yaar Pakistan mein cash on delivery hai yeh banda toh is payment gateway ke through pay karta hai toh dynamically usko woh upar dikhega baaki neeche dikhne chahiye is bande ka address suppose 370 tha isne 37 daala hai usko wahin pop up aa jaayega ke aap ghalat address toh nahi daal rahe last time aapne yeh daala tha phir uske upar aap 90% aate ho aap order place karte ho aur aap receive hi nahi karte ho toh aapko checkout block milega theek hai ya aapko food panda ki tarah yeh cheez mil jaayega ke aap bhai card se do aapko cash on delivery nahi milegi ab yeh sara sara backed by data hai so ab aap dekhein saudia mein salla ke paas 1 lakh stores hain kya udhar shopify aur magento yeh market nahi ja sakti? Ja sakti hai kyun nahi ja sakti it's a very bigger economy aur it's a it's a very growing economy theek hai har kisi ko accommodate kar rahi hai. Thailand mein, Singapore mein, Lazada aur unke apne solutions chal rahe hain theek hai so every region every country backed by data they will have their own solutions.
Nahi that makes sense kyunki shopify ka poora purpose ya shpeel yeh thi ke yaar kyunki hum scale pe khelte hain toh hum aapko ek SME ko woh wali quality de sakte hain jo ke ek bada player deta hai jiski apni badi teams hain. Um lekin wahan par jo problem aayi woh yahi aayi ke yaar shopify global data pe toh bahut acha khelti hai lekin localization ka masla aata hai kyunki hamara consumer uska style uska woh sara farq hai. Uh toh there is nobody sitting in shopify optimizing it for your local woh toh it makes sense ke yaar agar main Pakistan mein baith ke Pakistani consumer ko maine samajh liya aur uska sara ka sara data jo hai uske upar insight generate kar di toh then I can give a much higher quality solution jo ke again poori duniya mein it's technology is easy to make at this point in time it's really what you do with the data that is generated wahan par aap race mein aage jaate hain. So that part I mean I completely understand. Just to add one more thing here as a lay man term ke yeh bahut bada Pakistan mein ek major challenge hai ke we need to understand this thing ke data is one aspect. Ab aap dekhein jo Canadian based platform hai already walmart aur amazon pe 80 se 90% sale hoti hai. Yeh bana tha udhar bilkul startup merchants ke liye theek hai aur no doubt usko scale karte karte upar le gaye woh omni channel ke liye nahi bana kyunki uski reason hai udhar sara kuch walmart aur amazon pe 80% of the selling ho rahi hai theek hai aur woh paid market ke liye bana hai so the thing is secondly even though unki basic integration yahan pe nahi hai unki yahan pe bahut si cheezein nahi hai data aur us data ki provisioning ya woh woh uske uske upar AI machine learning deep learning aur woh is market ke accordingly data ko segregate karna so that's something woh koi local player hi karega jo is market ko understand karta hai iske dynamics ko understand karta hai. Yeh pata hai aasaan lafzon mein agar main example doon aapko Pakistan mein tesla bahut pasand hogi lekin jab aapke paas woh EV booths hi nahi hai aapke paas woh infrastructure hi nahi hai toh aap kaise bologe main auto pilot yahan pe chalaunga. Haan jo company yahan pe banayegi uska auto pilot yahan ke accordingly hoga yahan ke challenges ke accordingly hoga uske EV booths yahan pe lagayegi toh woh complete infrastructure jab hoga toh woh us company ki product zyada preferred ki jaayegi so we are that company ke hum woh tesla wali feel aapko yahan pe de rahe hain sara kuch yahan pe de rahe hain and we are replacing that thing ke woh jo consumer ki aur merchant ki need hai woh poori karke de rahe hain. Mujhe yeh batayein ke aapke paas data toh hai yeh toh maan liya 3.5 million agar aapka aap keh rahe hain ke yaar orders mein claim kar raha hoon toh you know there is a there is a vast amount of data that is being generated. Uh but agar isi ke saath na ek toh aspect of data and how you leverage that data ek main aapko ek feedback deta hoon aapke baare mein nahi but maine na main US gaya toh wahan pe maine logon se poocha ke yaar lam use kiya kyunki lam I am a big fan of lam and the work that these guys are doing to particularly for the industry to take it all over the world right? Woh sheen wala basically unka ek uh uh back tracking hai jisko woh enable kar rahe hain. Toh maine apne ird gird logon se poocha maine kaha yaar aap logon ne lam use kiya nahi kiya woh dekho itna zabardast kaam kar rahe hain kyunki woh log kya kar rahe the woh individually brand se order kar rahe the aur unko 50 50 60 60 dollar ki shipping pad rahi thi lam pe aap jaate hain 25 dollar mein aap 10 piece mangwa lete hain bada zabardast kaam hai. Mujhe feedback unhone yeh diya ke yaar lam ki technology bahut achi hogi uh peeche se unhone jo hai na optimization apni bahut achi kar di hogi lekin jo unka consumer experience hai na woh itna crappy hai ke jab main jaata hoon toh woh website mujhe ajeeb si milti hai uske andar jab main jaata hoon aur jaake ya main jaati hoon aur jaake main usme likhti hoon ke yaar red dress toh woh mujhe bunch of random cheezein dikhaata hai and I was very surprised by that because I you know Arif bhai se meri do conversations hui hain I know he is he is a you know he is a rockstar. Um I am curious why that's happened right? Because it's one thing to say ke yaar we have the data it's also another thing to say we are working on that data but I also feel like ke one thing that Pakistanis miss quite a lot is the front end UI UX of of of of you know ke ek aam woh usme psychology bahut important hoti hai just AB data nikal karke usko optimize karne ke bajaye aapne actually uh you know designers aur psychologists ke saath milke aapne ek sense banani hai ke you know what how do we create an experience jo ke uh use karne wale ko maza aaye. Right? Sirf maine yeh nahi kehna ke bas usne bechna hai bechte toh jumma bazaar bhi leta hai na lekin jumma bazaar ki sale mein aur Centaurus ki ya Dolmen Mall ki sale mein zameen aasman ka farq hoga in terms of user experience right? So um how are you solving that problem because I know for a fact jo maine abhi tak aap logon ka interact kiya I know for a fact that's a weak area for you. Um wahan par aapki engineering ke upar main nahi doubt kar sakta you know clearly agar aapke numbers hain toh woh clearly show kar rahe hain aur yeh weak area sirf aapka nahi woh Pakistan ka weak area hai right? Toh how do you ensure ke yaar theek hai kyunki shopify ki fluidity shopify ki khubsurti shopify ka jo up time hai um jo the way that it just sort of works ab jo bhi kar le it will always work. Pakistan mein ab cheezein develop hoti hain na somehow usme dabba dabba si hoti hain aapko dekh ke pata lag raha hota hai ke yaar yeh Pakistani hai at the end of the day jo bhi hai Pakistani hai kaam kar rahi hai but Pakistani hai. How do you make sure that goes away from Pakistani and become a more more of a global world class aesthetic and a world class experience uh that that people can use?
Okay so the uh so the thing is uh Muzamil uh as we all know ke jo modern time hai the UI UX storefront all these things it it totally depends ke agar aap brand bana rahe hain na so how much time you are consuming in it. Theek hai how you want to display your store. So suppose hum kya karte hain hum hum yeh karte hain ke we have a very strong team of UI UX theek hai jo ke aapka overall brand ki story telling in terms of graphics in terms of uh jo hai content in terms of each and everything because we need to understand ke jo brand ki skin hoti hai ya jo website hai it's it's always something ke yeh aap log drive kar rahe hote hain ke thought process kya hai how do you want to communicate aapki uh overall jo hai psychologically aap log kaise trigger kar rahe hain consumer ko aapka consumer ki market kaunsi hai aapki majority consumer ki market kaunsi hai aur uske baad aap log technology ka jo uh technology ka jo aam hai isme woh kaise use kar rahe hain because agar main isme aapko ek baat boloon ke we have 15 20 different websites theek hai ab usme jo control hota hai woh hota
add design team ka. Majority Pakistan mein jo challenges design ko kabhi serious liya hi nahi jata. Is mein bahut zyada jo hai wo paid model pe interest liya jata hai. Jaise aaj bhi aap agar Pakistan mein bolenge na ke yeh section dead ho gaya, idhar heat map laga ke dekhein ya yeh section aisa hona chahiye, modern time ke filters aise. Yeh itself ek jo hai na evolving market hai. Aapke consumers aa rahe hain, aap usko study kar rahe ho, aap evolve ho rahe ho, aap usko better kar rahe ho. So no one is going to spend on it till aap us aap uska mindset na ho. To agar jo Pakistan ka business hai, wo is pe spend nahi karta. Jab wo is pe spend nahi karta so it's very difficult ke jab koi is pe spend nahi kar raha to koi bhi technology company, koi bhi product company usko better nahi kar sakti because this is something which is ke yeh initiative merchants ko lena hai. Isliye ab main Pakistan mein bahut si aisi aapko websites bana bata sakta hoon jo Shopify, aapko nahi pata chalega Shopify pe, e-commerce pe ya kis pe hai. But aap kahenge kamal, it's a very good website. Kyun? Kyunke uske upar jo think tank hai ya jo wo brand hai, wo relevant team rakh ke baitha hua hai ya wo kisi achi agency se kaam karwa raha hai ya wo at least agar aap mujhe main aapko bolta hoon, aap kehte hain main bachon ke liye website bana raha hoon, theek hai to uske upar jo wo colors use hone hain, jo ke conversion ko better karenge, jo ke selling ko trigger karenge, jo ke aapki time duration of the pages usko increase karenge. So yeh jo business owner hai usne dekhna hai. Jaise example hai ke agar aap ek retail ki outlet kisi brand ki banate hain to usme wo kya karte hain? Interior decoration decorator ko bulate hain, theek hai. Interior decorate karne wala different hota hai, building kisi aur ki hoti hai aur usko manage karne wala koi aur hota hai. So isi tarah aapki online business ke upar bhi aapko interior decorator ki zaroorat hoti hai, jo numbers mein jo colors mein acha ho, jo placement pe acha ho, jo fonts mein acha ho, theek hai. Yeh techies different way se treat hote hain aur designers aur jo uske marketing wale hain ya jo brand build karne wale hain, jab tak yeh ek page pe baith ke aapas mein apne skill set ko unified nahi karenge aur for one single objective, yeh kabhi bhi achieve nahi ho sakta. Technology ka is mein koi challenge hai hi nahi. Hmm. Aapne bola for example Laimlight, Sapphire aap logon ke saath hai, right? What what level of services are they using? Some someone like that, ECS ho gaya ya is tarah ka koi.
Acha, so yeh saare hamara post order management use kar rahe hain. Inki websites Shopify ke upar hai, inventory, products aur order aana, yeh hamare system mein aa jate hain aur inventories bhi hum leke aate hain. Phir yeh saara business logic ke orders aa gaye, kaunsa order kis courier ko dena hai, kaunse order pe confirmation call hogi, kaunse order pe IVR hogi, kis order pe WhatsApp bhejna hai, kis order pe WhatsApp, WhatsApp pe confirmation aa gayi, kis order pe address galat tha, address theek karna hai aur yeh saara data Shopify pe update karna hai, yeh saara data ERP pe update karna hai, fulfillment courier ke portal pe jaani hai, invoices hamare system pe auto banni hai, pick pack ship hona hai, return aana hai, saara kuch hona hai. Yeh poori journey hamare software ke upar hoti hai. To Shopify use nahi hota na ERP ya yeh cheezein use hoti hain poore operational processing ke liye.
Right. Uh Octane platform jo abhi Laim ka aa raha hai, have you heard about it?
Yes, I have heard about Octane, sort of.
Um main thoda sa uske baare mein samajhna chahunga ke is that similar to what you are doing or is that something different? And what I where I what I am alluding to is agar aap Pakistan mein aapne yeh saara ka saara process manage kar diya, Sapphire hai, you know, and again main Sapphire ki example dunga, Sapphire ki do websites hain, ek Sapphire online hai which is the global website and then there is the Sapphire Pakistan which is a Pakistan focused website, right? My understanding is ke jo aapka zyada tar saara ka saara wo local economy ka to saara manage kar raha hai, but fashion is a huge export now. Direct B2C kyunke bahut bade overseas Pakistani hain, har saal badhi ja rahe hain, takreeban jo mera number hai wo takreeban 15 million ke upar hai aur har saal roughly is mein 1 million Pakistani mazeed add ho raha hai. Um is number ko zahir hai ke serve kiya ja sakta hai. Pakistani is an affluent uh community all over the world aur usmein zahir hai ke mostly jo sabse basic cheez serve hoti hai wo fashion hoti hai which is something that you are good at. You have a lot of fashion both in terms of uh clothing and wo and then shoes as well. I am curious ke whether you have or are in the process of expanding the same for international and overseas market as well which is inherently what Laim initially was trying to do ke yaar Sapphire aur yeh aur wo jo hain wo local market mein jo bhi kar rahe hain wo Laim mein apne aap ko list kar denge aur Laim jo hai unki wo international logistics manage kar lega and wo kyunke cost cutting hogi to us pe wo aage le jayega. Um lekin zahir hai jab bhi ek aggregator platform aata hai na to eventually scale ke upar there is always a requirement ke yaar jo bhi customer hai wo apne khud se bhi wo cheez manage kar le. That's why I think what Laim is in my understanding what Laim is trying to do with Octane ke yaar theek hai aapne hamari factory mein nahi dalna, aapne Laim ke upar apne aap ko nahi dalna to aap hamara peeche engine istemal kar lein and through that engine we become your fulfilling agent, we become your aggregator, whatever and you still sell on let's say Sapphire online. Uh you don't have to go through Laim and I know for a fact ke um I I I've spoken to one of these sort of a few of these bigger brands and wo unka yahi hota hai ke you know what Laim ke upar SMEs bahut zyada hain, hamara apna brand hai, humne apne paas hi rehna hai. So I feel like I can see the logic of Octane trying to capture that. Um but I don't know if Octane is trying to come into the local market. In that context, how do you see the rise of Octane and do you think they are a competitor in your space or do you think they are servicing a separate market? And then do you think you would be looking to become a competitor in that space by going international as well for your clients?
Okay, so I think uh first of all, main aapke saath na kuch numbers share kar deta hoon. So as we said ke 70 to 80% of the uh enterprise working with us uh they have their own international website, supply chain and the jinko is providing them end-to-end solution of a post order management. Jaise agar aaj aapki local site hai aur international site hai to ek hi warehouse pe agar 10 ki inventory padi hai to wo dono pe dikh jayegi, local pe bhi aur international pe bhi. Sahi hai? Dusra international pe FedEx, UPS, DHL automated hai. Theek hai? Jaise Nishat UAE bhi hum kar rahe hain, usmein Aramex, Emirates Post, yeh sab integrated hai. Phir hum Saudi bhi, Saudi ki bhi brands kar rahe hain. So jitne bhi bigger giants hain, inke international yeh jinko se hi manage kar rahe hain. Shopify with jinko, ismein unified orders ko manage karna, inventory ko manage karna, fulfillment ko manage karna, return ko manage karna, taxation ko manage karna, FBR ko manage karna, exports ko manage karna. So already yeh jinko kar raha hai. So we need to understand ke Laim aur Octane ka model different hai, hamara model different hai. So hum day one se hum technology oriented company hain. So suppose uh there is a brand jisko pata hai uh X brand hai aur wo suppose mahine ki 40 crore kar raha hai. To wo wo usko na sirf technology chahiye. Wo aapki warehousing nahi lega, wo aapki supply chain nahi lega, wo aap se marketing nahi lega kyunke wo itself ek khud agency ban jata hai kyunke jab uske apna scale hi itna better hai, so they want to have control. Sirf wo kya nahi bana sakte, wo technology nahi bana sakte. Wo CTO, CIO, CXOs yeh nahi karna chahte. So we come in that space. Theek hai? Jaise hamara commerce hai, it's a technology, it's a platform. I don't know, I am not sure but I guess Octane bhi Shopify ke upar hi hai, uh headless hai. So it's not something uh hamara model different hai. Hum apni uh total in-control technology jo ke scratch hai aur hum hamara aur hamara aur Octane ka kahin overlap zaroor aayega but we are not head-on competitors aur agar yes. Do you think ke Octane could then be a uh uh an integration into you? Maslan, mujhe Octane ki value nazar aayi hai na wo mujhe yeh nazar aayi hai ke Sapphire kabhi bhi unke warehouse mein nahi rakhwana chahega cheez, uske liye problem hoti hai ke mera maal main apne jagah se hata ke udhar le jaaun. Control rakhna chahte hain wo agar unka shops pe bik raha hai to wo quickly warehouse se shops mein bhejenge bajaye iske and vice versa as well. Octane ki jo mujhe value unko nazar aa rahi hai wo purely overseas operations mein nazar aa rahi hai, unless wo log bahut zyada koi massively local uske andar koi value provide karna shuru karein. Filwaqt mujhe usmein yeh aa rahi hai ke yaar um jahan par hamein wo jo aapne kaha na DHL, FedEx wagera to wo basically us process ko optimize kar rahe hain ke yaar DHL 25 dollar ke bajaye unki jo number hai wo yeh kehta hai ke yaar per kg hum 2 dollar tak neeche le aayenge. Right? Wahan aur wo uska peeche ek poora unka order management ka structure hai ke yaar yahan se beshak Pakistan se PIA se jahaz Dubai chala jaye, Dubai mein agla banda aake idhar se udhar le jaye. Wo khab saari ki saari khatam, hum cost ko optimize karke poori international logistics ko uh uh uh efficient kar denge. Yes, you are totally right. Yeah. Yeah, so so I got the point. So Octane na ek platform hai uh just to clarify uh for the audience and for me and you. Uh jo fulfillment center, international fulfillment center hai. So usmein high level model yeh hai ke suppose aap ek brand hain aur aapko pata hai ke aaj aapki 10% sale international aa rahi hai. Theek hai? But aaj aapka product yahan se jana hai aur wo 10 din baad pahunchna hai uh international customer ko. Theek hai? Aur us pe cost bhi aani hai 20,000, 15,000. To Octane ka jo so basically jo fulfillment center hai uska bilkul advantage hai aur wo bilkul jinko ki value chain aur jinko unki value chain mein ecosystem bana ke de sakta hai ke jaise jo jinko ke client hain, agar unka data yeh kehta hai ke agar unko US se 20% of the inventory consume honi hai to wo pehle hi Laim ke saath ya Octane ke saath deal kar lein aur usko international fulfillment center pe uh uh jo hai wo dispatch karwa dein. Taake jaise hi orders aa rahe hon, uska pick pack ship wahan se ho raha ho to unke liye wo cost effective hoga aur Octane ko bhi wo volume milta hai jis volume ke upar wo jo hai global logistic ke saath they can have a more discount, DHL ke saath and all that stuff. So yes, it's a very good propositioning kyunke Pakistan ka fashion is the one and only sector jisko globally recognize kiya jata hai and having a very bigger uh diaspora internationally. Aur kuch le na lein jo yeh ek uh ek jo complete community hai, Asian community, ismein Pakistan ki jo fashion hai, that's something which is on top. Theek hai? So I guess ke wo jo fulfillment center hai wo ya koi aur, usne jinko se connect hona hai, value chain add honi hai aur journey is tarah ki dikhni hai ke agar 1000 suit produce ho raha hai to yaar 200 pehle hi utha ke Dubai pahuncha do aur baad mein apni apne platform se beshak marketplace se jaise hi uski selling hogi to wo wahan se pick pack ship kara denge. 8 din ka jo logistic ka time hai wo cut down ho ke 5 din mein aa jayega. Jo 2000 ki cost hai wo 500 mein aa jayegi kyunke DHL direct Pakistan mein kisi aise merchant ko jiske 200 order hain usko to wo accommodate nahi karega lekin agar Pakistan poora unified ho jaye aur kisi ek ko represent karne ke liye de de to fulfillment center ki bhi cost unit economics kam ho jayenge kyunke usmein economy of scale achieve ho jayega aur aapki international courier companies ke saath bhi it would be a very better way to uh to to make a deal, to crack a deal aur uski gradually logistic ki cost consume karna which means ke aapki buying aur conversion it will it will go on a higher side. So it's a I am I am pretty much interested by myself aur this is something uh which which is going to which is going to increase the international sales jo ke jis tarah overseas bahar ja rahe hain so we need to focus and we need to build an ecosystem uh of a multiple companies adding value toward uh this to towards the businesses. Makes sense. Give me a I were at the 1 hour 30 minute mark and I'd like to sort of wrap it up as well. Give me a general um direction of where you think you will be going in the next five years. Okay, so we feel like uh next five years we we would be a technology hub globally and we when it comes to e-commerce, when it comes to integrations, we want to be the largest company globally playing a vital role, whether it's uh Mena region, whether it's the American market. We want to deliver in any capacity from a technology perspective or to deliver in a way that these people know how to invent something big. These people know how to solve problem in e-commerce. Like we in next five years we want to be a incu incubation center. Jaise abhi humne Zentry Retail by Jinko Retail ek product ko launch kar diya, which is a one and only made in Pakistan digital BI and smart AI marketing audit system for the merchant in a very economical pricing. Theek hai? So jitna hum e-commerce ko samajhte hain jaise jaise e-commerce grow karega uske andar jo innovation hai, us innovation mein we want to be on top not just with the services, with the products aur wo products global jayein aur kal ko hum funds bhi raise karein in products pe, nayi products pe aur inko IPO ho, unicorn bane. Yeh saari cheezein wo hain jo ke Pakistan ki product development ko globally we have the capacity and we have the potential to leave a mark globally. So we want to leave a mark in e-commerce space jismein hum achhe hain. Do you think ke going regional is an immediate term plan? Because abhi tak to aapki saari local focused products hain na, uh jo jo directly aapki apni hai. To is are you planning on going to let's say Saudi or or or the Middle East? A lot of people are doing that. Uh ya aap kahin expand karne ka soch rahe hain? Yes, okay. So when it comes to expansion, uh we are already expanded in Canada and US. Hamari white label products hain jo ke udhar more than 8 million ARR dollars kar rahi hain aur wo 150 plus merchants usko use kar rahe hain aur uh even ke Nike, Adidas are also using that products. Theek hai? Aur that's something which is a centralized AI review management system aur already we jo hamara technology ka muscle hai wo Canada, US mein already serve kar raha hai udhar ki market ko. But when it comes to Jinko and the multiple products of Jinko, we have started the expansion. We hamne Saudia aur Dubai ko pe target karna start kar diya. We have already existing customers in Dubai and uh there are talks uh there are talks in Saudi as well jismein obviously we are getting warm up aur hamari connectivity aur wo saari cheezein hamara jo hai wo start ho gayi hain. So the next big goal is uh to conquer the multiple market uh similar market like Pakistan, like Egypt, like Africa, like uh Saudi jahan cash on delivery hai, jahan isi tarah ke challenges hain. We will drive ek ek main aapko na uh bada interesting uh stats deta hoon. So the thing is Egypt jo hai wo 80-90% cash on delivery hai. Theek hai? 70% Saudi cash on delivery hai. Theek hai? So hum 96% cash on delivery hain aur hamari abadi hai 25 crore. Theek hai? Saudia ki abadi abadi hai 3 crore 30 lakh. Theek hai? Egypt ki abadi bhi iske near near hi hai. I am not sure with the numbers. So the way we are solving our problem, automatically this will become the invention and innovation for that market. Theek hai? Jaise obviously agar hamari jo kuch adare hain, army hain jinka skill set bahut achha hai aur saara kuch hai so wo yahan se wahan travel karte hain for the training aur unko lead karne ke liye. So isi tarah jo challenges hum solve kar rahe hain, hamari jaise company solve kar rahi hain ek bigger data pe aur jo itne touch points pe, so jab unka target yeh hoga ke 17 crore 30 lakh ke upar 70% se unko neeche aana hai to wo hum 25 crore jo fifth largest population wala country jo 96 se neeche jayega so we will have these things automatically resolved in this region jis pe hamara potential bahut zyada hoga un markets ko ab un markets pe invention karna, grow karna, innovation karna. Theek hai? So we are in talks with the reasonable uh companies, investors uh in Saudi and we have started focusing Saudi. We have already registered a company in Dubai. We have got few clients. So this is something in next two to three years we will conquer multiple regions by what by solving what we have already solved in Pakistan. Pakistan would be a test market and later on we will start our export jaise har business ki need hoti hai, har business ka ek uh mission hota hai, ek vision hota hai, primary goal hota hai. Haan, hamein Pakistan mein ek Pakistan bhi bahut effective market hai. Just to give you this thing ke mujhe Saudia mein Indians aake compete kar sakte hain, Egyptian aake compete kar sakte hain, mujhe Dubai mein compete kar sakte hain lekin Pakistan agar mera garh hai aur agar main yahan se less margin pe zyada penetrate karke ek bigger pie utha loonga so it's a safer market for me because there is no competition, international competition. Right. What's your average year-on-year growth over the last three years? So average year-on-year growth from last three years is is like 70 to 80%. Hmm. 50 to 80%.
commerce grow kar raha hai, awareness aa rahi hai, education aa rahi hai, international research aa rahi hai, studies aa rahi hain, better companies aa rahi hain, theek hai? So you have to keep yourself on toes. Theek hai? Jab aap apne aap ko on toes rakhte ho to aap enterprise bante chale jate ho. Ya aap startup ho to aap on toes ho. Jab aap SMBs mein jate ho aur woh SMBs jo ke focus nahi kar rahe ya jo poor planning, poor projections ke upar kisi na kisi work around pe baithe hue hain, theek hai? Unko aage aane wale two to three years are very difficult, very tough for them.
Very interesting. That's fresh insight because now I now that I think about it, people are not realizing ke jab cash digitize hoga to uske upar inside jo jo transparency bhi saari ki saari aya hogi. Transparency aya hogi to jo 18% sales tax hai jiske bare mein aap sochte hi nahi hain, woh bhi aayega. Usse margins bhi aayenge. Jab margins aayenge to woh bahut saare businesses hain jo ke literally tankha ki tarah apna ek chota sa ek business chala ke baithe hue hain. Unki jis waqt aap 18% sales tax dalenge to unka to woh hi nahi chalegi. Woh to chalegi jiske upar jo baith ke lakh dollar khel raha hai, woh tax bhi de raha hai aur uske upar apne margin bhi nikal raha hai.
Interesting.
Because there is one more thing, there is one more interesting fact. So the thing is, ek company thi woh cosmetic ka product bech rahi thi 3000 ka, but woh pura proper taxation aur jo hai na digital economy ka part, cash economy ka part nahi thi, cashless nahi thi, theek hai? So usne kya uske margin kam the, lekin uska uske margin kam the aur uske paas abhi consumer bhi kam the. Kyun? Baaki consumer wahan ja rahe the jahan jis bande ki 10 crore sale thi aur woh ek rupaye ka tax bhi nahi de raha tha. To uske upar woh uske margin zyada the. Jab uske margin zyada the to woh sales bhi zyada laga raha tha aur woh woh jo production ki cost hai uske upar jo hai kam margin pe bhi bech raha tha kyunki uska net increase kar raha tha consumer ko kam paison pe bhi de ke. To jab automatically tax net badhega, yeh businesses band honge to low margin wale business jo hain woh survive karna, sustain karna, grow karna shuru karke enterprise ban jayenge aur jo startup wala aayega woh day one pe sahi practices on karega, sahi pricing on karega aur woh eventually grow karna start karega.
Jo aap apni growth ki baat kar rahe the, zahir hai aapne baaki region mein jana hai, aage peeche jana hai to uske upar it's going to impact a lot, matlab it's going to cost a lot, right? Bahar jate hain aap to usme sara kuch hota hai. Are you planning on raising investments for your different products, whether that is directly through a VC, private equity or potentially going for IPO in Pakistan?
Okay, so the thing is we are open for the investments because we want to grow, we want to grow with the like-minded people, with the smart investment and obviously we want we do not want it to be bootstrapped by choice. But initially capitable was too much of a challenge that we were not able to raise funds because of because of internal capitable. So the thing is we have multiple products and we want these products to scale to conquer new market and to go global. So that's why we are open for our relevant options and offers in which both the parties can add value to each other businesses and can be a trustworthy partner and we can target the long-term growth and we can we want to grow faster but we want to grow far for that we meet we need like-minded people and relevant PCs investors and all that.
IPO nahi karne ka plan aapka anytime soon?
For IPO, I guess honestly speaking, we need to look up to multiple things and we want to do IPO but what would be the trajectory, what would be the direction and how we are going to do it, that's something that's something which is there is a lot of discussions required. Yes, we want to do it but in the future, InshaAllah.
Meri space mein hone ka fayda generally yeh hota hai ke I can actually talk to people simultaneously and be able to get insight. To maine na actually I actually messaged Arif bhai to to understand ke octane aur uska kya hai. Mujhe udhar se bhi same feedback hi mila for the for the viewer jo ke sun raha hai aur samajhna chah raha hai ke different products kis tarah kar rahe hain because again core goal yahi hai ke log aake usko kar sakein. To unhone aake effectively yahi baat boli hai unhone kaha hai ke jo jinko ka core strength hai woh retail hai and retail ke andar omni channel jo ke which is what we spoke about as well and octane has no interest in expanding in that space and that's where you know agar aapne ek ek large enterprise particularly ya even I would say medium sized jo ke ab retail ki taraf jana shuru ho gaye hain bahut saare aise brands hain jo ja rahe hain ab to unke liye if you want a singular one stop shop solution woh jinko is is is absolutely the primary woh and they have a lot of strengths there. Jo international logistics management and uski taraf hai uske liye octane exists. So I actually did a quick while you were speaking maine unko message kiya maine kaha yaar octane wale jinko wale yeh keh rahe hain what are your thoughts on that? To unhone mujhe bada detail bheja. But anyways, yahan par main is conversation ko bhai wrap up ki taraf lekar jata hoon. I want to ask you one last question. Mere paas sath hi room ke bahar jo hain woh ek aur guest wait bhi kar rahe hain. I do apologize for cutting this short kyunki abhi aadha pauna ghanta main aur bahut easily nikal sakta hoon. But I want to ask you one last question that I ask all of my guests and I'd love for your insight on this. What do you think, how do you see Pakistan 25 years from now in 2050 knowing what you know now, seeing what you've seen and I don't I want you to not add any ifs and buts ke yaar agar government ne yeh kar liya, agar logon ne yeh kar liya. I just want you to take what you see right now and extrapolate that, particularly in the context of you having spent the first 16 years of your life in in Dubai. You regularly travel to the US, Singapore, aap jaake globally bhi dekh rahe hain kya chal raha hai. Aapko Pakistan ke andar from working very sort of bottom of the food chain blue collar jobs to being able to create something incredible, you have that sort of experience across multiple industries as well as different classes. How do you see Pakistan 25 years from now?
So honestly speaking, I see Pakistan in a very vulnerable position in next 25 years because what I feel like is there would be money everywhere, there would be stability when it comes to economy, but when it comes to the society, when it comes to the planet, it would become a disastrous place to live and and I do not see as you said do not use if and buts. So I'm talking about I'm talking from my gut, my intuition and what I'm feeling, what I'm facing and all that stuff. I see today is the problem, today the problem is economy, the inflation and all that stuff. In next 25 years we would be discussing about water, ozone layer, the air, quality of air, breathe issues, organ issues, like a lot of societal issues. We will revert ourselves to the uncivilized nation and we would be a very difficult place when it comes to we will become a very difficult place as a society as a planet because if this is this is Allah na kare aisa ho but this is something which is my prediction. Agar aaj baith ke
Yeh aap 25 25 years ki prediction kar rahe hain ya short and medium term ki prediction kar rahe hain?
25 saal tak, yahi 25 saal tak yahi yahi hone ki prediction hai. Allah na kare aisa ho but it would be very difficult to live here aur paisa masla nahi hoga, economy masla nahi hoga.
Why do you think so? Why do you think so? What what compels you to believe ke yeh masle ho sakte hain?
Because inke seed ja chuke hain hamari jung generation pe. Aaj jiske ghar mein paisa hai lekin jahan paisa nahi hai, dono mein yeh cheez ja chuki hai aur woh seed boya ja chuka hai. To jab yeh build niklegi to ek hi tarah ki bimari mein phansegi aur jab ek hi tarah ki bimari mein phansegi to jiske paas paisa hoga ya paisa nahi hoga, agar kisi ka heart fail hota hai to woh jiske paas paisa hai ya jiske paas paisa nahi hai, jab heart fail to sab fail. Kabar mein kuch nahi jata. Theek hai? So hawa, pani, aapki mobile, aapki internet internet toxicity, aapki jo sort of jo jo aapka brain drain aur jo so brain drain khali is tarah nahi hai ke aapka skill set hai, aap doctor chale jayenge, sab bahar chale jayenge. Jo samajhdar hoga woh bahar isliye nahi jayega ke usne paisa kamana hai, woh zinda rehne ke liye bahar jayega. So phir yahan pe zombies reh jayenge, yahan pe graves reh jayengi, yahan pe sirf land hi land, land hi land reh jayegi. So there will be no people. If there will be people, they will be fighting with each other. They will try to find out ke kya ho raha hai, kyun log ja rahe hain, koi covid ki vaccine hai, yeh hai. We do not know ke hum apni earth ke sath kya kar rahe hain, hum apne land ke sath kya kar rahe hain. We are not having organic food, we are do not know what we are eating, we do not know what we are breathing, we do not know hum keh rahe hain humein technology karni hai, humein paise kamane hain, humein inflation karni hai. Bhai pehle planet hai, phir society hai, phir economy hai. Idhar reverse chal raha hai. Idhar pehle economy hai, paisa nahi hai. To kya hai? Theek hai bhai paisa le aaye, hawa kaise seedhi karoge? Upar aap upar aapki agar ozone layer ya yeh jo is tarah jo aapki carbon emission aur yeh saari cheezein jab aa jayengi to jo arab pati hai ya jo zero wala nikal ke to bahar hi saans leni hai. So how do you expect main bolun 25 saal mein ji hum log Google to bana lenge, Facebook to bana lenge, sab bana lenge lekin bahar nikalte sath hi jab mar jayenge na to na Google rahega, na Facebook rahega, na chalane wale rahenge. So this is the next 25 years.
Makes sense. Owaid bhai, I'm going to wrap this up. It's an incredible story. I wish you all the very best and I am excited to see how you expand out in the region. Again, region expansion badi badi zaroori hai Pakistani brands ke liye kyunki Pakistan ke up and downs chalte rehte hain aage. Shayad saans lene ka masla ho jaye to bahar hona zaroori hai. Thank you so much for taking the time out and sharing all that insight.
Thank you Muzamil. It was a lovely talking to you. Thank you.
Likewise. And for all of you guys, let me know in the comment section below if you are an e-commerce platform, have you heard about Jinko Retail, have you used them? What's your experience been so far? A lot of the problem statements that we've spoken about in this conversation, are you facing any of those and if you are, you know, what sort of solutions are you hoping to get either directly from Jinko Retail or generally in Pakistan? We'd love to know your insight in the comment section below. But nonetheless, this was Muzamil Hassan Zaidi. You're watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.
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