How Salim Ghauri turned a $90,000 deal into $150 million

सानव ज़बतीनो हज़रात, welcome back to another episode of thought behind things. This is a very, very special episode because this is going to be the last one this season and we are going to be back in a couple of weeks. But thank you so much for being part of our journey for the past hundred years, for the past hundred years wow. हम इतना बुढ़ा हो गया. For the past 100 episodes actually for the past 300 episodes you thank you I never thought कि हम इस point तक पहुंच सकेंगे but you know it's thank you for all the support thank you for constantly listening and for that we also have a very special guest for you tonight he is the founder of NetSoul, one of the biggest IT companies in Pakistan. I know that you guys have been asking for him for a very very long time and he finally were able to get the time and he was gracious enough to, you know, accept our invitation. सलीम ख़री the founder of NetSoul is with us today. Sir, thank you so much being part of the show. Good to be with you. सलीम भाई मैं थोड़ा सा conversation start करूंगा trying to understand कि early life आपकी कैसी थी? Where were you born and what led you towards NetSoul?

मतलब early life मेरी like any other child naughty, शरारती, खिलंडरी, पढ़ाई को बिल्कुल सीखती देना. It was a good life. लाहौर में by the way? Bore नहीं, bore in बावलपुर. Right. लेकिन early move हो गए लाहौर. My father moved the family to लाहौर. Actually, my father was a true visionary in such that a simple man जिनकी family भावनपुर में थी, पूरा उठना बैठना वहां था. लेकिन he at one stage उनको realize हुआ कि अगर वह भालपू में अपने बच्चों को रखेंगे तो उनके बच्चों का मुस्तक मिल. Right. So I think अगर आप अगर आज कुछ आप देख रहे हो ना I think it's that because of the dream of my father. Right. कि उन्होंने उस वक़्त देख लिया साठ साल पहले कि यार मुझे अपनी family को वहां ले जाऊं, जहां उनका कोई career या future हो. तो I think that that's where

we come from. What was his career? I mean,

यार उनका career था कि he just belong to a very humble family. लेकिन उनके अपने बड़े ख्वाब थे. तो he started coming out of his own family. उनके family में dentist थे. Right. और they did different thing. But he left all that. उन्होंने खुद अपना started selling oil and selling things like that, trading, स्मोटते थे और निकल जाते थे to sell and make sure कि उनकी family को वह वह कर सके, prepare कर सके. I think that sort of a man he was. So do you think the DNA of business really came from him? More than DNA business, DNA of going after your desires. I think that was more to it. Business बाद में आया, पहले उनकी ख्वाहिश आई. ख्वाहिश कहती है कि मैं अपनी family के लिए बेहतर ज़िंदगी उनको दे सकूं या उनको दुनिया दूसरी में लेकर जाऊं जहां पर उनको बेहतर वाले. तो I think that's a DNA which is important. तो business बाद में आया. Right. पहले आई जुर्रत. Right. Courage to move your family, a family of six boys, a mother, a sister, wife with nothing in his pocket. Six boys. Boys, nothing in his pocket. अच्छा. He came to Lahore with with just and he came from Lahore and just you know things worked for him. Yeah he did well. But when he started with nothing that is the courage I wish we all had. Yeah.

Schooling वगैरह आपकी कहां पर हुई? लाहौर.

मैं पहले एक school था गुलबर्ग में Lindsay Day. बड़ा nice school, private school. फिर मैं girls and boys में आ गया, फिर FC college में आ गया. FC college से I went to रुपए India for my higher education. Ok, and that was in computer science? It was not in computer science. अच्छा. Nothing to do in computer science. In fact, it was in petroleum engineering and वह भी मुझे वह कहते ना धक्का किसे दिया मुझे? वह मुझे धक्का किसे दे दिया. Was meant to be that. But because my father at that time was working with Romanian government on the export side, तो he was one the very permanent people in in their book in Pakistan. तो they kept telling him कि अपने किसी बच्चों को हमारे भेज दो. अच्छा. By that time he was seven mothers. वह तवाक से lottery मेरे उसमें आ गई. मुझसे तीन बड़े भाई तो America, England चला गया. जब मेरी बारी आई तो मुझे कहा जी रवानिया जाओ और मैं कहा नहीं जाऊंगा. मैंने बड़ा शोर बचाया. बड़ा रोया धोया के नहीं जाना रवा लिया. हां मतलब उस time पर ही रवा लिया तो आप were you able to place it on the map? दो आ ही नहीं और वहां पर language का issue हुआ है. और it's a congress country. अच्छा. It's a very cold country. Temperature goes to minus 30. तो आप उठाकर बच्चा था वहां भेज दिया गया. I said that was my destiny. That's what made me. I think that period जो मैं वहां रहा रुमानी में that is my defining period. A very harsh life. But this is what happens to people जिनका कुछ आगे कुछ करना होता है. तो I think I was lucky once coming to my brothers. I mean to remain here. See you have to see things different. Yeah. I think hindsight k and then you can really begin to see k At that time, I was crying and not happy, then there are stories I can tell you about Romania. But all that works in my favor of being resilient. You are resilient and you are able to do things with others may not because आप ऐसी जगह गए हो जहां पर कोई नहीं होता. Petroleum I mean this is what what year would this be? '74, '73 to '77. So 77

में you're graduating with a petroleum engineering degree. My understanding would be you'd be in the oil sector, hardcore because it's the boom of oil. Right? And Never day one I went to that sector. From while I was doing my petroleum engineering,

I was asked to go to a lab. This is year two of our degree. So my professor asked me to हमारी team को कि जाए, आप इस lab में जाए. What is that? Computer lab. And I have never heard of a computer by then. I was too young at that time. Computer was not anything at all. So I was asked to go to the computer lab. तो हम सारी बच्चे चले गए, all all of them. बस, so we went to this room, a big room with nothing but just a teleprinter there. So what is the computer? So I no idea. So so everybody was asked to go to the teleprinter. So I was asked to go to the printer. The clerk asked me, just give me any numbers. I said, what number? Just give me any two numbers. I said, two. एक का number? I said two. कहता बिन्कुल, what do want to do with it? Plus minus four. I said, plus. कहता कैसे? He typed it. अब I have no idea what is he doing. And then came out punch cards, lot of cards came out, the printer. So he gave me the card, कहता तुम जाओ, वह वहां पर उसको उसको दो. वह इसको read करेगा. So I took the card to the other, but she, she, she'd वाले read out. And then the paper came out with the result. Two plus two is equal to four. I kept looking at that paper. But again, there's somebody sitting who wrote four. That was a computer. That changed my life completely. I was at the right blocks, like a power technique. Of that four. Where did that four came? Somebody must have typed. No. He said nobody typed. The machine has decided it's for. The machine has decided. That's what just made me mesmerize with the power of that machine. Machine can decide it's for. That machine is the future. That changed my life. I dis... They did or I started looking for computer. What is that? So I went to libraries in Romania, started looking for what is a computer, and learning and learning. And then when I came out, I went to London to look for computer courses. I got courses. So all what I did is all private. I learned on my own.

Right. So my career is built on my learning, not from any university or any school at all. Do you think there was something that was a skill that you always had, or do you think it was the fascination? I was talking to the head of department of engineering yesterday and he said कि in a lot of ways kids learn better if they're अगर ना आप उनको कोई ऐसी चीज़ दिखाएं जो जो उनको excite करते हैं, जो उनको dream करना सिखाते हैं. Do you think it was that computer that you saw that built this urge in you कि मुझे curiosity learn करना है. अरे somehow you are fated.

Obviously as a child मैंने पहले करा मैं बहुत शरारती, naughty, बहुत incusive, बहुत you know हर चीज़ को खोड़ के देखना that's the child बच्चे करते हैं. सारे बच्चे करते हैं. But that day, I cannot forget that day. I wish I remember the date even. I don't know the date but that day I cannot forget the picture of that the total what I did at that day and that changed my total life. And I started ignoring my engineering degree and I was a very average student by then. By that time I came out, I knew कि मुझे कोई job नहीं देगा, उस समय तो because I was so bad. Not bad.

Average?

Average is very good. Let's not boost yourself. But that was an I wanted to do anyway. So I just wanted to come out of it. I wanted to come out of it very quickly so I can pursue more. So what happened then? Let me take you through then. So I came out of it. So I just wanted to pursue my computer computer learning. Luckily, came to Saudi Arabia. This is 1977. Came to Saudi Arabia, '78. Sorry, '78. I came to Saudi Arabia and looking for a job in computer department. And who will give you a job? Because I had nothing. But I applied in Citibank at that time. Citibank Riyadh applied for the job. And उन्नीस बुलाई मोने then call me, but I got a job in a different company as a transport manager. My very first job. Very lazy job, nothing to with Random, nothing to do with petroleum, nothing to do with anything at all. Just cars. Yeah. And it paid very well. Paid me very good salary with overtime and they gave me a car, they gave me anything, बिठा दिया कि यार गाड़ियों को इधर आ गई भी शक्रो. Very good job for a young boy. Good. I was doing the job, I got a call from Citibank. मुझे एक call like you applied for a job in Citibank. I did. Are you still interested? Yes, I am. Can you come tomorrow to see us? I say, yeah. Job को इसको यह था वह आठ नौ महीने हो गए थे. मुझे यहां ना very good money. It was good money, nothing to do, brand new car, all that. तो मैं गया city bank. And when I was American, young American, when I two issue किया तो he saw the FC college. Yeah. How do you know? Oh, I was teacher there. Yeah. So he started talking about Pepsi College. Alright? So we talk about Pepsi College. कहता है कि are you working with this company? I am working, you are getting this money. I say, yeah. Well, we have a job for you in when you apply for criminal department, we have a job for you. The loss job in the criminal department. मैंने कहा, okay, good. So, when when can I join? कहता है, wait wait. कहता but salary is half the salary you're getting. Mhmm. You're getting the, I think, 6,000 real. We have only 3,000 real. I say, it's ok, I'll take it. कहता है, but we don't have a car for you. मैं कहता है, it's ok, I'll take it. कहता है कि it's a night shift. I shall take it. कहता है कि it's not in रियाज, have to go to तमाम. I said, I'll go to तमाम. मैंने देखता है, कहता what's wrong with you? Why why you want to go to the lowest job we can offer with half the salary?

And no benefits? No benefits.

It'll be nice because you're bad processing. You have to go and sit and do the bad processing, and then you're moving from the baa, around to the baa. I said, I just want to be in the computer field. I was hired. And, that day onward, I started then pursuing knowledge and information. How does all this work? Then, was the way I bought my first Apple IIe. I collected the money from my friends in Damam, and I bought a Apple IIe. It cost to me at that time 5,000 reais. Apple IIe without any, monitor. So I put my TV on it and मुझे जल्द यकीन कीजिए कि मैं night shift करके आता और सारा दिन बैठकर फिर मैं उस पर programming करता start developing different things, self learning. And देखिए आजकल तो self learning का context बड़ा फ़र्क़ है ना कुर्सारा है, internet है even

आप बाहर जाएं तो आपको किताबें भी बड़ी मिल जाएंगी. उस वक़्त तो आप एक इदारे के अंदर जिनको computer की शहूर था उसके अंदर computer होते थे कुछ कुछ I am sure आप market में जाएंगे open ended आप computer की बात करेंगे तो mostly लोग कहेंगे यार क्या बातें कर रहे हैं? Right? So, तो how were you able to sort of gather the information that was required also? Mean books थीं, were you able to या कोई जानने वाले आ जा रहे थे उनसे आपने किताबें बताया था? This is exactly the difference between how I was able to reach here.

But the minimal resources, minimal ability to access resources I was able to continue to learn. I was able to whatever जहां कोई book मिलती है वह उठा लेता था and I started using different languages. कोबोल थी, basic language थी. I started programming and that and started so much so that people around me start finding out that I do programming. I started getting offer to do their software and I got my first request from a Lebanese person. They wanted a payroll developed for their PC at that time. And so I started developing. You know, one man choice. अपने घर पर? घर पर बैठकर. अपना office से job करते हैं, शाम को आकर बोला. शाम जब मैंने develop कर ले तो मैं उसके ऊपर लेकर गया lab minis के बाद, nice man. उसे दिखाया it worked actually. They were able to do their payroll. तो मुझे कहता है how much you want for this soft effect? Because we didn't agree. I said I have no idea. I did it for my, you know, learning and for sale. कहता no, I have to pay you. I can't take it from you. I said I don't know. अहमद, give me something whatever you want to give me but I am happy that you will use it. वो अंदर गया वो cheque लेके आ गया उसे मुझे cheque बंद करके दे दिया मैंने cheque नहीं खोला भी नहीं मैं वो happy. You know से अहमद when I open the cheque it was for 10,000 रियाल. My my very first Software sale. Software sale. That was मां ख़ुबास school मेरे और मैं you know, I was so

but, you know, I realized that I have chosen the right track in my life. Yeah. That 10,000 will change my total perspective. Do you think at the time there were people around you who was saying कि यार चार साल Romania बेचकर वाले साहब ने petroleum engineering कराई है. Saudi Arab में बैठकर गाड़ियों का काम कर रहे हो,

And I couldn't just explain to them what I am up to and they wouldn't understand until a lot later they realized कि what I was doing. A lot later they realized and twenty years later they realized that wow what was he doing? He was playing a different game altogether. लेकिन मुझे एक बताओ मैं आपसे खुशह संकट हूं मुझे मिल. Who who would of that age of 22 will decide to take a job half the salary with no perks and with the field which अभी वह lost level का job, it's been title भी कोई नहीं है. How many of the kids of today will do that? I don't think a lot and that's primarily because I feel like people are looking at money which is a exchange of value.

They are not looking at the value of what they want to pursue. You know interest me

but then I already got married and I had a family and a wife and obviously there were need to do things. I was a free bird. No I was a free bird. So at that time I decided to take the cut and come down to the lowest. There was no title at all because job had no title. It was such a low job at that time. They had no title. The lowest they could me, the lowest seller they could give me. I said, just give it to me. I want this job. Let me work here.

And so how long did you work at the Citibank job? So while I started working in Citibank,

I started offering my services outside Citibank. किसी को सौम्रादी या किसी को. You were probably Pakistan's first freelancer. Freelancer and then सऊदी asked me कि यार why don't you start business with me? Yeah. तो हमने कहा अच्छा चलो हम training center खोलते हैं. Right. तो हमने एक training center खोल लिया. पहला training center से programming सिखा रहे हैं. Programming सिखाने के लिए. तो मैंने Pakistan से बबलबले आया ले गया मैं Philippines से teachers यानी we started a good training center. अब इसको तीन साल हो गए. And this is early eighties? Early eighties बिल्कुल eighty two, eighty one, eighty two. अब यह तीन साल हो रहे हैं तो अस्सी दिन में मेरा मैं promote हो गया हूं. I am now three years में I was good. So I was promoted to a supervisor role and now I a supervisor. Good job. Salary बढ़ गई है और Comfort आ गया अब. I I was called by my branch manager. Now branch manager never calls computer data supervisor उसका ख़ताल मिली so either it was a good deal or it was a bad deal. So his name was दीपक शर्मा. Nice man, good man, Nothing. So, सलीम, कब, bad game? How's your job? I'm like, yeah. Deepak, very nice. You like your job? Like, yeah. Are you keen to continue? Oh, yes. We have a problem. I said, what's the problem? I have been told you're running a business outside Citibank. Yes, I am. कहता कि by rules and regulation of Citibank, you're not allowed to manage. Are you in the job? You can't do a thing. So I'll just tell you straight. Just promise me that you will stop doing that business and you can go back to your office. You know what I said? No, I cannot do that. मुझे कल देख रहा है. You know what that means? I say, what? I have to sack you. I say, yeah, understand. Ok, give me your keys. She took my keys. Please go to HR and take your check. I

love my Citibank job on impulse without even thinking. You didn't even be like यार मुझे give me a day, let me think about it. I'll figure out कि मैंने इसको choose करना है pros and cons की list बनाऊंगा. No, because I knew what I'm doing. I knew my destination is not a job. Destiny

is to do something more than this is my job. You know interestingly मेरे साथ मेरे एक और colleague थे उनके नाम भी एक और रही था. We would, we join together. He worked in that job for thirty years. I left after three years and I मैंने बड़ी मार खाई उसके बाद.

They think in a way you also had a problem with someone caging you. If they hadn't said कि यार आप ना करें तो आप शायद करते रहते job but the idea that

someone asked कि यार हम आपको define करेंगे अभी decision. वह चीज़ें हैं. एक तो मैं बहुत honest हूं. I will if you ask me something I do, I'll just say yes. I will never hide. I will not lie. I will not, say to you that it is not true. That's that's my personality. Obviously, yes. He said you are doing it? I said, yes, I'm doing it. Good evening he said to you, यार तुम्हें गलत खबर भी दिया और मैं बिन खाबू शो जाता. He said, no, I'm doing it. That's one which is so important in your personality because you have seen what person you are, the way you deal with me. That's one. Second thing कि वह job, no. I wouldn't have lasted long in that job anyway. Okay. And in destiny, that that business also failed. That's how. That obviously, that didn't go anywhere because the Saudi took over because when he realized it's working well, he took over and kicked me out. So I lost everything. I lost everything. I came back to Pakistan in 1986 with zero. I was

lost my zirbank job, lost my business. So he didn't even give you like some sort of a कि यार ठीक है, business से निकल रहे हो तो यह, you know, take some cash or I'll buy out your stake sort of a situation.

Saudi Arab of those days were very different of today. Right. It is a very different today Saudi Arab is very different. They come by shell in their laws. Not that time. Saudi Arab is a Saudi. And I knew I'll be wasting my time and breath if I stay with this guy. So I left one evening. I'll like I left city bank. I left Saudi Arabia. One night, I took my family and came back to Pakistan. Bye bye. With zero in my pocket. And I go went through a very difficult body here in Karachi. Then then I went to Australia. But Karachi me you were with your family? Yeah, with my family. And my brother was there, I stayed with them. And I was able to survive a period. But then luckily I went to Australia, and then the different lives started. The point I'm making is that that all my life, I took decision on my impulse, on my gut. Disregard to what will happen tomorrow. It was a gut feeling to leave the Southeast. It was a feeling to leave City Bank. It was a gut feeling to leave my job, first job. So three things happen and every time I, I'm going to stay with the सऊदी, उसकी बात बर्दाश्त करके रह जाता. Continue with the job, चलो तो हाथों देना मुझे. I said no, I will not stay with you. So I left. So see these are things which define your personality. You're able to take very tough decisions. This regard, हुआ, उस वक्त दो बच्चे भी हो गए हैं. आपके, you know, और आपकी family है. उनकी needs है. बच्चों को school जा रहा है. I didn't even think about it. I just said I am leaving, so I left. So three incidences happened in seven years, eight years, and all three were on basis of my impulse that, no, I will go to the next life. Next life क्या है? मुझे नहीं पता. Mhmm. No idea what that is. And so the Australian

thing, was it based on a job or was it like an immigration where you'd go there and find a job? No. No. You go and find your job. Australia

was looking for computer profession that time, rate demand. Timing was right. I went to Sydney, and, immediately, I was busy. Okay. And that that was a visa? Yeah. They gave I was able to PR. Okay. Reserve visa. They was able to give me visa. And, given very short, within six three six months हो गया था. And immediately when there, there was a lot of demand of, what I used to do offer. क्योंकि मैं बहुत कुछ sick चुका था. By then, I was really burnt badly. So I was able to work very quickly. So from July to to '95, that period was stable in Australia. Good period. And all in the same job or? No. I was freelancing in a term that I was consulted. I was, you know, on a daily basis or three months contract. Our contractual work, I love to do that. I, see, I I was not employable. I'm not a employable person. I'm not a person who you can control and manage it. So, anyway, it was good for them. I was hired by a company called BHP. Right. They hired me for three month contract to put up a network for 40 pieces. Pieces बिल्कुल 98. This is nineteen eighty seven, eighty eight. So I did that. So three months जब होने लगे तो they hired a Chinese female girl to take over my job and so I was handing over. So there was a meeting with all the department head with my RT manager to give... IT manager used to give them a report, k, what's happening in their automation. So I was sitting in that meeting, and, so Peter Gherty was my IT manager, and he was telling all the due generates that, okay, let's say goodbye to Salim. He has completed his three months contract, and he's leaving us and we've got Mr. Chung Li, a nice young female. She's taking over. Interesting, one of the managers said, why are you letting सलीम go? I say, what do you mean to say? Because he was on a contract and he's done. I was like, no, but we want him to stay because, you know, there's stability in what he's doing. तो उसे कहा, but I don't have a budget. तो otherwise he said, but we'll give you the budget. They were saying, interesting to watch that how I was asked by the user to stay, not by the IT manager. Ah. So, team said, okay. I'll talk to Rob. Rob was his boss and see if he can keep You know, I stayed for eighty years.

In that journey, They

kept redoing. Again, why that happened? Simply because I believe that I was so... Just not honest with my work but keen to learn. I think it's all about keen to learn and improve the working of the people around me. I was so good with dealing with the people. So they kept me for eight years and then I left them to come to Pakistan. Not that they wanted me to leave because I had enough, you know. But that's a different story why I left that. That's a different story. Why did you leave? I thought you would ask. First of all to a stable life doesn't suit me. To stable. There was no, कहते हैं तबू में बोली थी कुछ, घबराहट थी. No no not that. Two things happened in my life. One was that I felt that I am not doing anything. I am just making money. I mean, yeah, money is coming in. I am an accidental. They pay me well. But there is nothing to report to myself. There is nothing done.

Self actualization कोई नहीं हो रही थी कि कोई कोई purpose नहीं हो रहा था. Purpose नहीं हो रहा था. And then

1993 my manager John called me, सलीम यार वह this big conference room, can you please take it over and put about 30 machines? Buy new PCs and put a PC का जमाना था. Put 30 PC network and just take all the approvals for me. Buy all the equipment you need and then when it's done, tell me. So I went about 30 pieces, routers, whatever. कि हर चीज़ करने के बाद जब वह set हो गया, I went to John John, your conference is ready. कहता है sir, lock it up and give me the kick. Please lock the room. ऐसे, we are not using it yet, and I will use it but not now. So मैं lock करके John को खी दे दी. Time passed, हफ़्ता दो हफ़्ते room is locked. Three months on track I was walking past the room, the room was open. And looked inside there were people like me inside that room. But they were not from Pakistan. For sure they were not from Pakistan. I looked at them, and they were speaking Urdu, Hindi, बोल रहे थे और मंगेह What's happening there? Who are these? Oh, they're from India. And we got this software from India, And we're implementing this software in the PHP. And my mind just went, no way. How come there's no Pakistani company Mhmm. Offering this software? This is '93. For two years, my mind was totally not happy at all. My happiness left me that day. And I just wanted to come back and have something in Pakistan which will be of the standard of Australia will hire us. Like, I have to have something in Pakistan which will be hired by a company like Australia, and we have people like those working in Australia from us in Pakistan. That just couldn't let me see for two years until I came to लाहौर.

And when you left your job in Australia and decided to move back, did you know what you were going to do? I mean, you knew what you were sort of going to do in terms of direction, but did you have a legitimate

job of a I'm not a planner. I'm a least of a planner. If you see my past till then, always run on impulse. Impulse was that I was start something which will ultimately become a global enterprise and that will offer global services like what I saw in Mac. That's the only thing. I knew I'm capable. I knew technical I'm strong. I know, I know I know what I do. So I'll go and start something. That's all. This is it. I had no money. Why? I don't save. Like सुधरी भी है. So my brother, शाह बड़े भाई मेरे eldest of my brothers. Just to sort of get context. छह भाई आपने बोले? आप कौन से number पर place होते हैं? भाई then seven हो गए थे लौरान के पास, मैं middle view. मैं बताता हूं कोई change may be interesting aspect. तो मैं 93 का हो गया वाकिया मैं लोह रहा है 94 में bike से बैठा था. मैं regularly come to Pakistan. मेरे भाई like my father. तो मैंने कहा यार मैंने कहा भाई Pakistan आना चाहता हूं. आज क्यों नहीं आ रहा है मेरे पास पैसे नहीं है. कहता है अच्छा क्या करोगे मैं कब वैजो करता हूं? कहता है यार अच्छा मैं invest करूंगा. खैर मैं बात तो आएगा ही गई मैंने I didn't take it seriously मैं बाप चला गया. 94 गुज़र गया I came back again. उस वक्त मैं और बहुत हो चुका था more in my mind and my क्योंकि मैं बस अब मुझे नहीं मुझे कुछ करना है. फिर आया मैंने कहा यार भाई तो आ जाओ मैंने कहा यार कहते हैं यार पैसे मिला मैंने कहा आप क्यों लोगोगे? कहता यार I have been watching you for last twenty years. मैंने तो इसे ऐसा series बंदा और general बंदा देखा. मैंने कहा what if I am not successful? तो कहता like अरे basis अगर कामयाब हो गया तो फ़ायदा होगा, नहीं होगा तो I will accept it. I will take my losses. तो मैंने कहा कोई guarantee नहीं है क्योंकि I don't know what I will do. Yeah. You will give me money, will come over office. तो मैंने कहा, are you sure you understand the risk you're taking because I I have no plan. कह लो, I'm ok. मैंने कहा, मुझे दुबारा नहीं कहेंगे क्योंकि मैंने आपके पैसे waste कर दिया. हां. So true to his word. He gave me 2,000,000 rupees at that time. क्योंकि I have got 2,000,000 rupees पड़े हुए यह तुम ले लो. This is twenty six years ago. तो with that in my mind, I decided to pick up my family and capital whore. Right. That's all. That's the only thing I knew कि I have got 2,000,000 rupees और इससे मैं अपना business start करूंगा. This is it. Piggy family, सिद्धि मेरे दोस्त परेशान, what's wrong with you? Why would you just uproot yourself with such a stable life and go to a country? उस समय यह country में turmoil बहुत था. अगर आप ninety, ninety six का 97, five में देखें तो वह government बदल रही थी. मेरे जो नमाज़ होती थी. Political crisis and मुस्तकिल. तुम why would you go to country with political crisis, हालात ख़राब, यह वह economy down. मैंने किसी भी सुनी. मैंने सिर्फ़ अपने दिल की सुनी.

And how long did it take for you to be here and and and set something up? I'm not saying something big but I mean when were you able to find your first project? When were you able to find First your

few months. Look for office, look for things, small office and DHL और Phase one. वह तो बिल्कुल उसको कोई राना होगा छब्बीस साल. बिल्कुल कोई राना था और एक office ले लिया सबसे छोटा. आठ हज़ार कराया था उसका. Office ले लिया तीन लोग रख लिए और start talking to people Pakistan में. यह मैं IT expert हूं मैं तुम्हारी automation करूंगा. So, my brother to my father start meeting people. सब मुझे मिलते बड़ी priority. मुझे शायद भी मिलाते हैं लेकिन कोई मुझे serious ना लेता. अब sure कि जब मैं जाता था उनको उठकर तो वह मुझ पर हंसते भी थे. कह रही कहां से आ गया? मेरी ख़िताब पढ़ी मैं इसे साफ कर लूंगा. So महीना गुज़र गया और रोज़ में निकलता suit पहन के, tie पहन के, बड़ा एक दो suit थे तीन चार टाइयां थी वह एक बारी बारी बदलकर मैं निकल जाता. पहली गड़िया की और टूटी मैंने मेरा ना पर ही खुश था मैं उससे मैं गिल जाता. महीना गुज़र गया Nothing, not a single call. Nobody called. Office आकर बैठता तो ख़ामोशी दो बच्चे थे उनको कुछ देता है यार यह कर लो, यह बना लो. कुछ ना कुछ software बनाता रहता. फिर एक दिन I called my, नहीं सुबह मैं घर से निकलते हुए मैंने अपने wagon TV से कहा यार एक काम करना. दिन में दो तीन दिन में आप मुझे call कर देना और call भी. कहती है why? मैंने कहा यार वह telephone की bell बजती नहीं है. तो at least जब call करी तो bell बजेगी. Mobile phone नहीं थे. तो उस समय देखा कि मैंने अच्छा तो उससे कोई day one साढ़े दस घर में phone किया bell बजे से मुझे देखता रहा कि भी तो hope कि किसी और का phone का उठाया तो. बीवी का phone था, बात की हैले की बंद कर दिया. दोबारा फिर बलबजी उसको देखता रहा phone को शायद कोई call हो उठाया तू. यह इससे सच अथरा. एक दिन बैल्बजी फिर देखता रहा उसे time वही था उठाया तो बीवी नहीं थी. It was my brother नहीं, मेरा भाई था नहीं. लद्दल में होता है तो मुझे कहता है शरीर हां तुम लौर में मैं कहा कैसे क्या हाला कैसे मैं Thailand में आ गया हूं. तो my boss wants me to check-in Pakistan if he can find people from us. So that was my first break. So I said yes. So मैंने went around and searched for the people. लोग मिल गए तो मैंने callback की name को उसके Bangkok में. अच्छा because they were new company तो they were instead of hotel. उन्होंने office hotel में बना लिया था. तो मैंने उसके call की उसके जो camera था तो उसमें उसके boss ने उठा लिया. So उसका Peter नाम था. मैंने कहा, hey, can I talk to name? तो मुझे कहता है, पीटा का who is this? Is this सलीम name's brother? मैंने कहा, yeah. Oh, I am पीटा का his boss. Hi पीटा, how are you? मैंने कहा, you know that they asked you to find people for you. कहा, yeah yeah, asked him to do. So you got the paper for us? Yes, I think I will go to बैंकोक. Let's see what you got. मज़म साहब हमने अपना वो अपना पुराना suit निकाला. अपनी एक red tie थी हमारी उसमें कुछ निशान थे, वो पहनी है अपने. हम बैंकोक पहुंच गए. सुमिक पुल के पास आ जाओ. वैसे दिख देया, come and see us there. दोपहर के कोई साढ़े ग्यारह बारह बज गए थे. Bangkok में, may का, may में बहुत गर्मी होती है. अब हम जरा अपने अपना blue dark suit पहना. मालों को gel किया पूरा. हम dog type any और हम निकल पाए सुबह पूरी तरफ. इस open अब श्रदीप सूरज पड़ रहा है और हम देख रहे हैं कि हमें कोई business meeting हमारी. लोग बैठे होंगे suit boot पहन के. वहां तो कोई नहीं बैठा था. सुबह दो गोरे shorts पहन के tuition बैठे बैठे बैठे गप्पे मारे थे अब मैं उनके पास एक गुज़र गया I was looking for businessman तो मुझे पीछे दबाई सलीम. मैंने उनके देखा मैं कहा यह है कब है? कहता why you test like that? मैंने कहा अब कभी do a business spinning? Come on, take off your time. मैं कहां I'm trying to impress you. We are impressed. Take off your time. But that broke the ice. Right. That that laughter and we sat down and there and then we signed a £40,000 contract or a napkin. They had no paper to bring four people for six months to Thailand.

Essentially,

consultants from your company? To help people. That's all. Nothing to do. That's all. And that's how the life of letters started.

Interesting, 1997.

This is May 6

time के ऊपर what was the I mean technically कैसी चीज़ के ऊपर काम हो रहा होता था यह? Was it what sort of language was being used or? They were using AS 400, RPG.

अच्छा. RP was the language and luckily we had RRAS 100 people in Pakistan. So we were able to find. We were able to get people and we were able to, and they were good people. They did a very good job so much that that they were impressed. Peter Kells and his team and a German by the name of Oyin Bechdel, who was a CIO of the total region in Asia I see. Based in Syrien. They were impressed with the people I was able to bring, and the people worked very hard. And I was in touch with them regularly, and I was traveling to them regularly to sea. And that came up as a good Pakistani resource pool. Pakistan has good people who are very dedicated. It gave a very good name to Pakistan. How long was that project? Six months? It went to four, nine months. Six months then three months more. Nine months, by then I started pushing for more work. Yeah. They become friends. So, Ergen Beckett was in Singapore as a CIO. He was the one who looked up. So, I started approaching him for work कि आरंभ जी, I am a software developer. Let me develop software. And he would just smile at me and politely start, yo, we are too big and we've, our work is so complicated. And I'll just say, know, no, I understand what you do because my people are doing so I am learning from my people what you do. You do lending and lease and all that and I, so मैं उसको बड़ा ही press करूं मुब्रास्ताओ. So what I used to do मुज़मिल that at least twice a month I'll take a flight from लाहौर to बैंकोक. बारह बजे flight जाती है थाई है इसकी. Arrive Bangkok 06:30 in the morning. Immediately take a flight to Singapore जो साढ़े आठ जाती थी. वह arrive करती है Singapore में साढ़े ग्यारह बजे. So I'll just continue the flight. Singapore को क्या है? I will freshen up. From airport, go to Oygon Brackett's office. In Gateway West, he was staying without informing him. उन दोस्तों इसको security protocol ही था, so you can go into the office. Go to his office and most of the time he was always in his office working. So I will lock his door and look and I say, why are you here? I said, I am here. Take me off for lunch. Sometimes बारह साढ़े बज जाते थे वह उठता था. मैं settled था. मुझे lunch चाहता था. And he just say, why you here? I said, I want work. And he tell me, here, no work for me. So उसी lunch के बाद मैं वापस आता था airport. Flight from चार बजे चलती थी. मैं Singapore to Bangkok और साथ में Bangkok Salar. So चौबीस घंटे में मैं वापस आया था I couldn't stay hotel में मैं पैसे hotel के नहीं तो होते थे you know company में. So I kept doing it. इतना मैंने उससे तंग किया हो गया उनको कि वह बेज़ार आ गया मुझे. He was very polite lunch कराता था. फिर एक दिन उसकी call आई हुई मुझे. This is I think May ninety seven मेरी diary में लिखा था मैंने. So he called me one day. Are you planning to come to Singapore? I said, yes. Don't come to Singapore. I said, why? I think I've got something for you. कहता I've got something for you in Taiwan. Can you do software? मैंने कहा, yes. मुझे diary, I wish मैंने आपको दिखाता मैं diary में लिखा है उस दिन that I got the call I am waiting for. Let's, the time will tell if this is the break we were looking for. यह मैंने notation लिखी है एक line की. If this this is the break we are looking for, यह words है मेरे and they are prophetic words. That was the break, actual break. जो software development हमें पहली मिली Taiwan के लिए और उससे मुझे दी. उसी company के लिए थी. Mercedes Benz. Right. One company but different customer Taiwan के लिए. Now Mercedes Benz Taiwan. Right. यह था Mercedes Benz Thailand. Right. That become Taiwan. What do you think if that happened? आपने मुझसे question किया था पहला customer कैसे मिला? That's how we got customers. Never gave up. You keep going after a good thing. First of all, do the right thing for your customer. Be honest and then don't let them go. You know वो customer थालियाँ ना आज भी मेरा customer है. Twenty six years down the track they still use my software. How many vendors can claim that?

And so this was 1997. 97 till late it's what twenty five years. How have you evolved since that first customer?

We were very slowly. We have one organization which took its time.

Why do you think that's so? I mean, some people say कि यार हालात बड़े ख़राब से, terrorism आ गया, load shedding आ गई. Was that a inward decision कि यार हमने slow ही evolve करना है or was it a lot of external circumstances that didn't allow you to scale as even if you liked We were very lucky.

We were slow. Very lucky. You can look it differently. Mhmm. You could say कि twenty five years तुम्हें पता नहीं क्या होना चाहिए था? I could say, no, we're just starting. Mhmm. Two ways of doing things. One is that you do things so you can make money. You want to make lot of money so you can do things in a certain manner. And you just go after things and you make money. Other aspect is to build something which is, which has a longer life, which last longer than yourself. उसमें तो time लगेगा. That will take its own twenty, thirty, may be fifty years. Maybe मेरे बात के बात शायद यह कपड़ी. वह वन जाए जो लोग expect करते हैं, it doesn't matter. But pace ऐसी बनाओ जो वहां तक जा सके. That was day one of my, in my mind. अगर पैसे चाहिए तो Australia में थे मेरे पास. Could have stayed in Australia. You know, the way I dealt with Ogden Bakket and Mrs. Benz, money was the last thing I always asked. यह जो आप पहले मैंने आपको बताया था मांग का, so what happened then? So उससे कहा ok give me a proposal on this specs. Give me the total what will, you know, how much time and cost. So I made a proposal and I sat with him and went through. So I said it's about $300,000. Number of days, number of people. I said, yeah, I agree with that. But कहता है, I don't have a budget. I don't have that much budget because our budget is small. I have only $90,000. So, तो मैंने कहा, okay, fine. Give me 90,000. But do me one thing. Allow me to retain the rights of this developer. अब वह मेरी शिक्षा कहता कि Chinese में software है, Chinese market ली है. तो मेरी शिक्षा कहता है कि are you sure you want to do that? मैंने कहा, it's ok. 90,000, fine I'll survive. It's not enough. Won't be able to pay my bills but at least I'll get some business knowledge for that. तो he agreed to allow me keep the rights to resell. Right. देखिए, this is a bespoke development where a customer is paying you with their business to develop and it's their right to take it back. Have no rights on what you develop. Yeah. Here I ask for him, ok, pay me one third of what I'm asking but please allow me to resell. तो उसने उस पर लिख दिया कि NetSoul is allowed to resell to whatever. We never sold that software but I got the right. Mhmm. Now that was the beginning of our own software. Your IP essentially. The IP. Now again if I insisted I could have got double $12,000 and people have insisted because money is important. So whole अगर आप मेरी life का cycle देखना तो money was never. I wanted to have something of a solid which we own rather than money money तो हम खर्च कर लेंगे. वही हुआ कि उससे right दे दिए उसके बाद जितने भी उससे software develop किया ऐसा था हम वह contract करते गए कि वो rights that sold के हैं. Five years down the track I had the full package complete life cycle of the transaction मेरे पास आ गया उस पूरे business की. Now we are the largest owner of a software in the world today. Today we are one of the four providers, only four, जो compete करते हैं आप पास में इस software की. मैं software sell for $10,000,000 per license, that same software. I sell for $10.20, $30,000,000. Mercedes paid me अब अभी five years ago $150,000,000 for 12 country license. वही same software जो मैंने उनसे लिया था. I did not. I just let go few $100,000 to earn $150,000,000. So far I have heard over a billion dollar from Buses Benz alone last twenty six years मैं उनसे bill कर चुका हूं. Just because of that decision at that time, कि नहीं, it's ok, just give me $90,000 but give me the rights. And this is automobile software? No, It's a financial software. Automobile as such because Mercedes Benz lends the money for their own cars. So they have a finance company. So I deal with them, Mercedes Benz finance. So you could, you you essentially were able to repackage it and sell it to, like, banks and Sorry financial motor vehicle finance company मेरी customers हैं. From Toyota to Hyundai to Ford to Fiat to Nissan, you name it, Volvo, they all channel में I've got पूरे market मेरे पास हैं, सारी automotive finance की corporate की मेरे पास हैं. They're all my customers. The banks are my customers. Globally we are one of the global players in the world because of that decision.

So where where are you right now? You're, कितना, what's the scale of operation,

in terms of Maybe you are. उस तरह से? In a very early stages. We are in a startup at the moment. I believe that we are in a stage where from here onwards we will inshallah तालाह get to the position we believe we should be in next few years. We are now growing around. We are we have got new centers opening up. We are seeking US market which is the biggest market. We are spending now in European market. China को पूरा हमने capture already कर लिया. Issue को पूरा कर लिया. I have customers in India, Korea, Japan, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, New Zealand, Australia.

Somewhere the customer And how does this work? So the technical team entirely is based out of Pakistan. You got sales teams all over? Do you We have have got full development

team. ये development hub है. यहाँ से पूरा software manage होता है, developer तयारी धास होता है, changes यहाँ होती है and then we support our customers all around the world. China now is become a second developer chapter. I just had 50 Chinese developers to develop in China for the Chinese market. Gradually हम इसे Chinese market को China ही से करना चाह रहे हैं. सही है. It's a huge market. तो they will rather be dealing with the Chinese company. So now NetSol is becoming a Chinese company. So we are developing software in China for Chinese customer. अभी 50 लोग हैं I think it will be 500 people in next two three years. वह सारा काम China का वही से होगा या से नहीं होगा. सही है. So total Chinese work will be done in China. So gradually we will become global. Multi like, multi. We will be in very country. Pakistan में भी very खराची development, में लौर, विश्तामाद में develop कर रहे हैं, फैसलामाद में भी office ले लिए मैं सुबह बच्ची में develop है. So we'll divide, we'll break up the development center from law to overground. सारा focus छियासी हटकर फ़ैल जाएगा. So headcount essentially अभी 2,000 तो यह बहुत छोटा headcount है यह बढ़ेगा. It'll be bigger. अब बढ़ेगा क्योंकि अब हम we are opening up. मुझे

थोड़ा सा मैं थोड़ा सा थोड़ा switch करूंगा conversation. Just want to get your sort of insight on the industry. 2,018 के बाद dollar free float हुआ. उससे पहले dollar जो है वह stuck था. Do you think that had an impact on the industry in terms of, you know, again export से कहा जाता है कि dollar has to be market price for exports to be competitive. You as an export based industry, do you think that made a difference in your operations and sort of OpEx?

मतलब IT industry is one industry which is free of these कहते है ना economic. Economic. ना हमें LC खोली पड़ती है, हमें कुछ ना मुझे back में जाना है. So we are very different from any other industry altogether. मैंने कभी इन चीज़ों को notice ही नहीं किया because I deal with the global customer, I charge them global rates. I don't charge the Pakistani rates. ठीक है. I don't charge them Indian rate. हम $150 पर ही अपने resource देते हैं. हमारे resource thousand dollar पर जाते हैं because our resources are all domain experts of financing and leasing. So we deal with, so we are, so we are not impacted with पाकिसानी environment at all. Right. We deal with the global world with, yeah, terrorism did affect, of course it affected. People will not come to Pakistan, customers will not come. मैं उस पर नहीं जाना चाहता. वह वह हमारी, वह मेरी country की issues है वह उसको मैं, मैं उसको बहारा नहीं बनाना चाहता. Right. अगर शायद होता तो हम शायद बहुत आगे निकल कर होते हैं but that doesn't matter. It is not important. The fact we survived that period of very difficult five six years. I think that's most important right. We survived. Yeah. So, माशालाबी here. We're talking to each other. So, I think that that's the key. But I believe that this industry does not get, you know, burden with these kind of issues like other industries. We we charge in different currencies. We get paid in those currencies. We bring it in. जो भी rupee rate मिलता I'm happy and I use that to pay my salaries and pay my expenses. So, हमें इतना impact नहीं है और

आप कैसे हो? In a way, मैं इसी को follow up एक quickly वापस लेना चाह रहा हूं कि in a way what what lot of people said was कि sure इस तरह से impact नहीं you are charging global rates but then you are paying salaries. Salaries अभी भी जा रही है with the dollar free float now a lot of companies have the margin for growth in a way कि यार ठीक है now we have some extra capital जिसके through हम more hiring,

more sort of development, training and so अगर जो हम नहीं है. Very positive. Yeah yeah that's positive. Help us a lot. We got better value for per dollar. That's fine. लेकिन होता क्या है कि मैं लेकिन यह जो fluctuation है यह बड़ा effect करती है हमारे public company को कि जब मैंने कोई invoice book की तो उस सौ dollar let's say दो सौ चालीस पर था. Mhmm. अब मुझे दो सौ चालीस पर book कर दिया. लेकिन जब मेरे payment आई तो उस सौ पंद्रह का था तो I lost 35 rupees. Right. मेरी book पर मुझे loss आ गया. On the other hand when I booked at $2.15 और dollar चल गया दो पचास पर तो मुझे gain आ गया. Right. तो यह book effect होता है लेकिन वह RZ वह है. Right. मेरा core business तो जो dollar मैं gain कर रहा हूं उसी से मैंने अपनी revenue generate कर दिया है. And

I think you are listed in The US topics. We are listed in US. Yeah. Tell me about your listing because that's not something IT वाले लोग जो हैं बहुत कम this is the recent phenomena but what was the thought behind it? कब किया था? This is 1998, 1999.

The idea at that time was to. अच्छा you listed in the second, third year of your. नहीं नहीं नहीं नहीं आपका ना we got we were well different company since beginning we are twenty years listed both of twenty years now listed. We are mature उगना शिमा then we are training

then. Oh wow. Yeah we are. And so the the way it works is there is a US company and then there is a Pakistan company or is there a is there a hold that basically holds US company owns 67%

of Pakistan company. उस साथ हमने reverse merger कर दिया था. मैंने शाहप ने अपना पूरा reverse कर दिया USA में. So we become US company then then we got listed in Karachi तो हमने 35% float कर दिया Karachi market में. So USA company ने अपने 35% market को दे दिया तो अब 35% of the PK is in the market.

67 is owed, 60 whatever owned by The US company. That's a parent. Right right right right. And so why did you do that? Was that a.com thing कि यार everybody was visiting? Yes,

that time it was exciting.com, share prices jumping up and down, lot of valuation. हमें इतना फ़ायदा नहीं हुआ क्योंकि हमारे होते होते वह market गिर गई थी. हां right. So we did not but more than that the idea was to be seen as a big company. Right. So when you list it you can deal with the big customers that was a big idea of that time. And do you think that really impacted your DNA versus a lot of other companies because दाहिर है की listing के साथ compliance आती है compliance की वजह processes आते हैं and processes की वजह से जो slow growth होती है लेकिन अगर आज मुझे पूछे तो मैं आज history करूंगा. अच्छा आज नहीं करेंगे? अगर आज मुझसे कुछ है after twenty years of understanding. Why? Because you want freedom to decide on what business to do and when to sell. As a public company sometimes you have to go because quarters पर quarter RNC you have to be quick in sales, you know, you can show something to market. That affects your decision making. Right. Which doesn't go with the freedom of able to decide and decide on your own price, decide on your timing to sell. अब अपने अपने value को कम कहीं दो आप sell कर देते हैं because आपको quarter close करना है. यह हर जगह होता है. Every company does that. You know, so but it's ok. Think no regrets. We are good. We are fine. ठीक है and Pakistan में list आपने किस time पर की थी? 2005.

2005 and you are happy with that listing as well? Yeah that's fine.

Though we don't see the value of ours but I don't blame the market. I think we have to show the market more value for the you know shares which इंशाला will happen. We are fine. We are good.

How do you see the पाकिस्तारी market? बड़े लोग कहते हैं पांच billion, 10,000,000,000, 15,000,000,000, पचास billion. Are there realistic targets over the next five ten years? Do you think we are at a lot of people also say कि यार शायद हमारा वह time था जब हमने base बनानी थी. अब Pakistan ने वह base बना लिए क्योंकि जब वह India को देखते हैं $200,000,000,000 तो जाहिर बहुत analysis होता है कि why did we miss the boat? Why were we not able to do it? And now with the with with a lot of people with a lot of interest not just within the businessman but also within the public at large कि there everybody essentially everybody wants to do a digital some sort of digital work and so how do you see the industry panning out over time over the next five years?

We started late Pakistan as a art industry. How late do you think? About twenty years. Okay. उसकी वजह यह है कि हमारे IT schools are eighties के school है हमारे. We had no IT school in seventies. No IT school at all. India, on the other hand, had IT school since fifties. So, by eighties, they already had so many people produced and they were already in the global market that they were able to cash in the Y2K. Boom. Indian industry शुरू हुए. Do you know the Y2K? What happened to Y2K? You know that? So Indian industry took the benefit of बल्कि उन्होंने ही बल्कि

In a way

ख़र्च आप आप 100% sure they're the one who set this panic that the world will crash in y February. Right. They had millions of, people sitting idle at home with IT degrees and not doing nothing. So they hired millions of people, and they so Indian IT industry started at that time. We were not there. Right. I though my company was there, but we had no people at all. So that so forget that. Today today, we are a total different industry. Mhmm. 30 down the track. Pakistan RT industry is now at a base where we're not going to miss the boat. Let me assure you that. We are in the boat. Mhmm. We are part of the boat, and this boat, inshallah, are going to sail. He said these are numbers. 5,000,000 television. Nothing to do this. It's, we're lucky we have a lot of people. Mhmm. And it's just now we have to add more skills and just train lot more people with the skill. It's just numbers game. Right. We have the best references. Look, my customers are best in the world. BMW is my customer. MessageBank is my customer. Toyota is my customer. So we this wasn't the case twenty years ago. Right. It's very difficult to sell. Today, easy for me to sell. I just sell, I go, just let me sit and talk to me because I have so it's easier to sell today and we are part of the global IT scene and we are going to see the results. So three billionaire, it'll be 6,000,000,000 maybe in a year time, it'll be 10,000,000,000 three years time. The numbers will exponentially multiply because there'll be lot more people selling, lot more IT people are available, lot more skills are we all realize important skills. So yes, these numbers are real. Could be, you know, आगे एक साल, आगे पीछे, दो साल, पीछे आगे पीछे जाएगा. But होना है यह भाई. यह होना है. We are on the, हम boat पर हैं. Right. We are not missing the boat. We are in the digital boat. This is a, this is a great ride. I am very excited. I am loving it. Right. आपने इसमें बोला कि India started training essentially twenty years back

and training is I mean the entire industry is is is the product is the people, right? It's the services and that's the raw material. Pakistan में बड़ा मसला यह आ रहा है कि इस वक्त raw material का बड़ा एक क़हत पड़ा हुआ है. You know essentially पोछ होता इधर उधर से जैसी project रहता है किसी company के पास तो वो इधर से तोड़ते हैं, उधर से तोड़ते हैं. Salaries double, triple and it's becoming very unsustainable very fast because the supply side is completely choked. What do you think अगर हम बात करते हैं जब बड़ी industry की तो हमें जो number चाहिए जहा हमारा जो average out IT graduate दूसरा system है वो पच्चीस हज़ार है उसमें से employable बहुत थोड़ा है. हमें तो अगर उस number को achieve करना तो हमें तो लाख डेढ़ लाख essentially resource सालाना add करना है. जो कि अभी देखते हुए नज़र नहीं आ रहा with universities हमें नज़र नहीं आ रहा with even जो ये training camps हैं, boot camps हैं, they're not

they're not scaling fast enough. वो उस area में उस problem को आप किस तरह solve करते हैं देख रहे हैं? देखिए या तो बैठकर रोते हैं बैठकर मिलकर सारे दोनों से रोते कि जी हमारे पास से सोचते नहीं है तो I hard and started training myself. Look, I'm sorry, totally disagree with पूरी जो इतनी लड़बी आपने खानी दिया मैं इसे disagree करता हूं. You create your own resource pool by yourself. We lose people, everything. It doesn't matter. We have our own icon. हमने वह क्या हुआ है अपना पूरा training system बनाया training. We train people. पचास लोग घर करता हूं. बीस में चले जाते हैं लेकिन तीस में मेरे पास आ जाते हैं. बीस मेरे training की किया हुई थे. Nothing wrong with it. Industry ऐसी बनती है. Stop crying. I'm sorry, disagree with that. बच्चों का right है आना जाना. They have the right to go for the better job. हर बच्चा में इतना नहीं गाज़ी चेहरी पर आ जाएगा. That's ok. So, no. I I do disagree with that at all. We have response responsibility to build our own resource pools a bit more so market can have people. So, यह यह issue नहीं है. सिर्फ़ हमें वह है कि we just have to come up with the reasoning why we are not doing well. Not a valid reason.

All have to work hard. एक तो आपने बोला कि मैं लोगों को hire करता हूं मैं उनको train करता मैं I कहता हूं do you think do you have any plans of opening institutes or university or institutes that can एक तो ये है ना कि यार एक CS का बच्चा आया उसको employability नहीं है तो मैंने उसको लाकर के मैंने तीन महीने में train करके उसको मैं काम पर लगा सकता हूँ but then that's probably आप तीस पचास सौ डेढ़ सौ कर सकते हैं. अगर exponential पर जाना हो do you think the industry led academic training sort of India में भी हमने in certain areas देखा कि वहां पर industry ने directly train करना शुरू किया vocationally. Do you think private sector will begin to do that as well? अगर मैं यह नहीं करूंगा

तो मेरे पच्चीस साल पिछले ज़्यादा हो जाएंगे. I have we have to. We have no choice. We have to go into bigger training. So yes we all. मैं हूँ मेरे जितने colleagues है we have no choice. We all have to take it on. Stop crying, stop complaining, stop you know telling the world that its a wrong message. You telling the world that we don't have people don't give that message for god sake tell them we have the people यार. I am sorry. I get upset when everybody talks about people वो message बाहर चल जाता है. Why you giving that message to the world? Don't give that message. Tell them we have the people, train yourself. I am sorry bad message. Totally get upset when I keep this into this thing. हंस, उपनीन में message आ रहा और पाक्षा में लोग नहीं है. Who will give you work? What sort of people are you? Why you been telling people we don't have people? जब मेरा पहला काम लिया मेरे लोग नहीं थे. I was gonna have people. I have to come back and prepare the people. Got the work down. सारे वो मोहल्ले के बच्चे बिठाए हुए थे. We still did the work. We delivered but we promised. Please stop this message but ask my colleagues कि मत का करें podcast में बैठ के. Podcast पूरी interview में जाती है आपकी. Don't do that. Bad message. India ने क्या किया? See, India is a clever. वह जब 10,000,000,000 करते उन्होंने कहा जी अब 50,000,000,000 कर रहे हैं. हम कह रहे नहीं हम दो billion कर रहे हैं. You know this 3,000,000,000 number कहां से आ रहा है? इसका भी for straight bank only. वो कैसे आ रहा है? जो लोग companies registered हैं आपकी export earnings 5,000,000,000 पर जाती क्योंकि आपका freelancer तो उसमें आता ही नहीं है. आपके majority houses are not registered with the stray bank. They don't fill e e form. तो हम तो number ही लगते हैं. हम बताए जा रहे दुनिया को हम छोटे हैं, छोटे हैं. हमारे पास लोग नहीं हैं. हमारी सिर्फ 3,000,000 की है. So we are damaging our own district by saying these things. बार बार हम कहे जा रहे दुनिया से खा बार लोग रही है. चलिए दुनिया का तो messaging I totally understand I mean I get your sentiment but वो ही वाली बात है कि एक problem statement तो है ना उसको तो हमने figure out करना है. यार why you broadcasting it? We all know that.

मुझे सबको पता है हम उसपे काम करें. आपस में बैठ जाए. Primarily what I am trying to figure out is कि what is उस solution? आप कह रहे आपस में काम कर हैं. आप

मुशेष कहते सुनेंगे. Twenty five years I never committed about not having people. जो मुझे मैंने पूरे labor किया है मैंने. अलहम्दुल love we have led all our commitment to the people. लोग छोड़कर जाते हैं मुझसे मुझसे कि लोग मेरे पोछ कर रहे हैं. देख लिया चलो रोता रहता मेरे सामने but I don't care. No और हर करो, train करो. मतलब

आपको उसके अंदर issue नहीं आ रहा.

अगर आपको खुद सुनना है भी issue आ रहा है I am sorry मैं dispatch करूं मुझे शुरू है. नहीं that's fine. मुझे शुरू कर रहा हूं क्योंकि मैं I that's all I am hearing from other people and I am sorry but I discuss with my colleagues because यह बात सुनकर उसका नुकसान हो रहा है. उनको यह समझ आ रही है कि उस काम सा उन्हीं को है. वहां पर लोग नहीं हैं. Makes sense, makes sense.

Do you think अगर मैं बाकी companies की बात करूं Pakistan में जब system से मेरी बात हुई थी उन्होंने बड़ी interesting मुझे एक point दिया उन्होंने कहा कि in a lot of ways the the reason why we want scale was because हमारे जो उस के लोग थे वह mostly and आपकी age demographic बड़ी फ़र्क़ है but most of the people who start setup companies were IT professionals, young IT professionals. कोई उन्होंने certain काम किया काम करने के बाद ICICI से उन्होंने grow किया. They had the IT DNA and they didn't have the business DNA. And they said कि you know Pakistan के अंदर India के अंदर on the other hand enterprise आई थी early days days के अंदर. वह उनके बकोल आज Pakistan में वह DNA आ गया है in the leadership and the management जो कि अब truly business को scale करना जानती है. Would you agree with that statement? It

makes sense. This is exactly what happened. We were not business minded people at all. We wouldn't have that business acumen. But मैं as I said, उस समय time ही नहीं था. उसकी वजह यही थी कि we were not mature enough. Our industry was not mature. We didn't have the references नहीं थे हमारे पास. Processes हमारे पास नहीं थे. अब अल्लाहमद अल्लाह we have all. यह तो इससे मैं बार बार थोड़ा emotional हो जाता हूं कि यार give up right message to the world. We have what it takes to deliver whatever services required and if not we will are we are able to build them. हम लोग कर लेते हैं. लोग हैं बहुत लोग हैं बहुत ज़हीन लोग हैं यकीन कीजिए I am amazed at the boys इन बच्चों ने क्या software बनाया है? मेरा मेरा software दस billion dollar कैसे नहीं बिकता? It has to be something meaningful. It is a very complex piece of software we develop. ये कैसे develop हुआ? किसने किया? यह आपके बच्चों ने, आपके schoolओं के बच्चों ने किया. Tremendous potential in your people. इसको आप overstate

करें, under stripped होना करें. Makes sense, makes sense. अच्छा sir, I know that नमाज़ का भी time हो रहा है. We we want to wrap this up. We're at the one hour seven minute mark. I just wanna quickly know, have your opinion on one thing. मैं generally सब guest से पूछता हूं. Actually उससे पहले I would also like to know कि आप net solo किस्तेहा invasion कर रहे हैं क्योंकि एक तो आपने अपनी एक family company है आपने उसको बनाया. It is a Zaire public listed company है तो it's much more scrutinized than your average एक एक एक software house जिस तरीके से होता है. In its eventuality do you think, do you think there are right, the right structures in place for NetSoul to be able to sustain fifty years from now, hundred years from now in terms of the professional succession?

देखिए मैंने शुरू में आपसे कहा था कि it's easy to make money, you can make lot of money. It's very difficult to build institutions. Yeah. And institutions are the one who last longer than yourself. So that's all is an institution. Yes, there is family involved, but there are professionals involved. At every tier, have professors, at every tier, and they are not family. And we are lucky to pick up the best professors all around. We'll continue to do that. Family will play a role but there will be lot more professional part of the core system and in ten years, fifteen years, twenty years, thirty years this company will be one of the main IT company of Pakistan. मैं आपको assure करता हूं और यह हमसे आगे होगी. जो हम चोरे जाएंगे इंशाला तलाइयों से आगे जाएगी और Pakistan will benefit from a net soul in a long run. यह this is not for today, this is for tomorrow. It is established in that manner and structure is in that manner. We are making sure it is succession plans हैं and people are trained at the low level to brought up from all around the all the world. Pakistanis are joining us. We are a true global company. We have all nationalities working from. Chinese are working from Americas, Germans.

We have 20 nationalities working for us. So we are true global company from Pakistan. Makes sense. And so I'm gonna ask you the last question generally. सब कैसे मैं पूछता हूं? How do you see Pakistan twenty eight years from now, in 2050, knowing what you know now, seeing what you've seen throughout your life?

Pakistan has a great potential for one reason. We have a tremendous youth coming out today. Youth is very different than my young age. They're very different, very intelligent, very knowledgeable, very keen. We have a different Pakistan incoming ten years time. देखिए these are all countries go through this ups and down upheavals. That's fine. एक evolution है होता है. Question है and we are learning and we are learning and we are and I am very keen. I I, very last point she came back to Pakistan, he, I don't want to go back. I lived overseas long time alive. I don't want to go away from Pakistan. My children will be here. I want my children to stay here because I believe this is going to be a tremendous country. चलिए I hope to I hope to hear that. Hope to see that.

Know I love the optimism. You know it's very rare now coming from our generation that we look up to क्योंकि वह होता ही है कि वह आकर कहते वह अजीब depressing बातें हमें करते हैं. And be able to scale in the future.

सलीम साहब, thank you so much for taking the time out and and sharing all that insight. Thank you, विजयपाल. Thank you talking to me. I'm thinking for to letting me share my, you know, passion and my, you know, views because sometimes people don't agree with my views. It doesn't matter. But it's my responsibility to share with you what I feel. 100%, 100%. Thank so much. And for all of you guys, first of all, thank you for being part of our journey and

all of the 300 episodes this is the end of season three and we will be back in shaa Allah in a couple of weeks with season four. We have some exciting things coming up in that कुछ upgrades आ रहे हैं कुछ मजे के पेवट से रहे हैं so you know I hope to see you guys very very soon there as well. इसी के साथ साथ you know we are this is a December 26 so new year's आने वाला है I wish all of you all across the world a very very happy new year I hope 2023 is better for Pakistan. I hope 2023 is better for all of us. This साल was a little up and down both politically, economically और एक बड़े हम एक heavy heart के साथ 2023 में जा रहे हैं. But I hope and pray कि this year holds great value and and and a great future for all of you guys watching. I wish you all the best but anyways अगर आपको यह episode पसंद आई है दोस्तों यानी के साथ ज़रूर share करिएगा. YouTube वाले like का बने दबाएंगे engagement बनेगी ज़्यादा लोगों हमारी conversation पहुंचेगी. Facebook वाले नीचे नीचे दी गई link के ऊपर click करके TBT community join कर सकते हैं जहां पर हम different feedback भी लेते हैं, guest recommendations भी लेते हैं, articles भी share करते हैं. So you can join that as well. Audio platforms वाले subscribe button दबाएंगे. आने वाले episodes के आपको notification मिलेगी. इसी के साथ साथ यहां पर कहीं पर easy पैसा jazz cash साधा प्यार होगा. If you'd like to support the channel, we accept anything from 1 rupee to as much as you'd like. It's a thought that counts. But anyways, this was सय्यद मुज़ामिल हसन जैदी. You were watching the last episode of season three of thought behind things. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in the next one.