The ed-tech founder who started in a slum at 19

चलो साबितिना साहब, welcome back to another episode of thought behind think. हमारे साथ मौजूद है. एक बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान. Someone I have been meaning to talk to for well over the past one year, but somehow वह map out नहीं हो सका. Thankfully, this has finally happened. Someone from the community also posted about him recently in the community. And we thought, you know, let's it's the perfect time to set it up. हरुन यासीन is with us today. He is the founder of तालीमाबाद. It's an a tech company focusing on जो out of school children हैं Pakistan की उनको और not just the out of school children bro. So जो जो actually school में जा रहे हैं और एक बहुत बुरे निज़ाम में जा रहे हैं. How do you equip equip them for better learning and and to actually compete in the the world जो आने वाला है. हरुण, thank you so much for being part of this show. Welcome, am glad to be here. मैं conversation में थोड़ा सा start करूंगा just trying to understand I mean, EdTech is a very interesting and a rather dry space for most people. How do you get into this and you know where were you born? Where did you grow up? Early life थोड़ा सा मुझे बताएं and then education के बारे में. Yeah, so I was born in Saudi

and then I moved to Pakistan when I was about four. जैसे मैं Pakistan move किया तो I belong to middle class family. मेरे अब्बा Pakistan में इधर job करते थे एक accountant थे. उनकी खाइश थी पांच बच्चे थे. उनकी खाइश थी सारे अच्छे schoolओं में जाए. तो उन्होंने हमें Beacon House में दाखिल करा दिया. We went to Beacon House. मुझे याद है हम लोग की पांच हमारे अब्बा का paycheck 80,000 उस जमाने में होता था और मुझसे तकरीबन तीस पैंतीस तो on average हर दफ़ा education में चले जाता था. Right. So I went to Beacon House. For the early part I was a very diligent student और फिर I started to lose interest and this is the kind of stuff that happens to everyone, right? किसी point पर आपका interest थोड़ा अपनी ताली में खत्म होना शुरू हो जाता है. मेरा कम होना शुरू हो गया और फिर वह build up होता है और फिर छठी grade में जाकर मैंने अपने दो subjects fail कर दिए. अंग्रेज़ी भी fail कर दी, maths भी fail कर दी. अच्छा. And अक्सरों कात नहीं पता होता हमारे इर्द गिर्द के लोगों को, even sometimes our parents, our teachers, what to do when a kid slips up that bad? You know, they are going alright and all of a sudden they gone. And फिर कोई उसकी defined strategy नहीं होती. खास तो अब Pakistan में तो फिर मतलब यह तवीज़ पहनो और फिर उन turned out है और कहा पढ़ोगे कि नहीं पढ़ोगे. You know so all kinds of things happening जब आप थोड़ा सा slip up कर लेते हो.

Why do you think you slipped up though? I mean what was the अगर मैं root cause analysis करूं तो what could have been the reason at the time? I mean I think

just generally I think मैं मुझे बहुत ज़्यादा stimulus चाहिए होता था. I when I loved the class I absolutely loved it और मुझे primary यह, primary years में ज़्यादातर teachers होंगे जो who some way or the other कोशिश कर रहे होते थे. जब छठी में आए तो it was all serious allusion. Algebra पढ़ना है आपने और x e value find करनी है और बस यह तरीका है इस तरह आपने find out करना है. And I think that part of like not knowing the why behind why you were doing all of this stuff. उसकी वजह से I just lost interest. मैं class में I remember like कुछ classes मुझे जागने के लिए ना मैं बाजू के बाल खे हैं. चलो होता था मैं कि मैं सो ना जाऊं. That's all that matters. So I think इस वजह से interest loose हो गया. Right. और फिर by the time I got to my A levels, it was really odd because मैंने बहुत ढेर सारे subjects पी लिए because I was trying to figure out मुझे क्या पसंद है या नहीं पसंद. And जब A levels का result end पर आया तो it was a fruit chart that nobody could decipher. उसमें एक distinction भी थी. अच्छा. अभी weekend house से आकर पुछा भाई, teacher से आकर administration पुछा अच्छा आपको किसने पढ़ाया था यह subject? And I was like and so it was a, it was a whole mix. Right. I ended up you know because everyone wants their son to be an engineer मुझे मेरे parents ने कहा कि यार engineer बनो तुम. मैंने Google किया what type of engineering earns the most money और उधर top पर petrochemical engineering था. I had reasonable grades तो मैं university of waterloo में admit हो गया और फिर मैं उधर भेजने के लिए काफी ज़्यादा financial implications भी थी. मेरे अब्बा ने जो कुछ बचा था वो बेच पाछू में कहा तुम जाओ और you know you are set now. Right. I went there पोटलु में engineering करने और पहले दो महीने वह normal you know जो freshman year होता है उसके बाद जो आपकी winter break आती है उसमें सब लोग Christmas के लिए चले जाते हैं दोस्त चले जाते हैं. I didn't have enough money to you know fly back home so मैं उधर ही था dorms में अकेला. And so one day I woke up and I was like this doesn't feel right The other day and I was alone, lots of time to reflect, you know. Right. Second day I woke up, third day I woke up. On the fifth day I remember I was like, you know what? I don't I don't think this is working. तो मैं नीचे रिशार का office खुलौता था. मैंने रिशार के office किया और मैंने कहा कि the next day I was मैंने post it notes छोड़े अपने सारे दोस्तों के लिए उनको दिए कि यह तुम्हारा calculator था यह वापस ले लो, किसी की दरवाज़े के बाद चिपका दिया and then I on the next flight I was flying back home. अच्छा. And when I got back home तो my dad was on the road step. It supposed to be a surprise. Of course, like, इतना ज़्यादा मैंने मैंने मैंने यह तो बिल्कुल भी नहीं बताया था. Because imagine the horror of having And to tell that to उन्होंने कहा कितनी अब कितनी छुट्टी है यार, wonderful surprise. And I said This is it. This is a long leave and so at that point you know like मेरे जो educational journey है it had seen highs and lows. English feel की English में distinctionally फिर एक अच्छे college में भी चले गए but You know एक side of the आबादी is bungalows, reasonably middle class people sometimes upper elite class and उसके बिल्कुल दूसरे side पर कोई कचरे से खाना खा रहा होता है. हां. And kids you know कपड़े पहने उखेर रहे होते तो हम भी इधर ही बड़े हुए हैं. हमारे सामने भी कच्चीबादियां थी and जब university से वापस आ गया था तो I had year you know mid year तो आपको कोई भी नहीं accept करता. I went into one of the कच्चीबादीs near here और वहाँ पे कुछ बच्चों से मुरकात हुई इनके साथ दोस्ती हुई. बहुत सी horror stories भी थी quite frankly. वो school गए थे, छोड़ दिया था फिर वो signal पे वो गाड़ी के ऊपर वो करते थे, I was 19 and I felt कि चलो मेरे पास कुछ time है तो I I something should be done about this. तो मैंने उसी कच्ची बादी के अंदर कोई मेरी university की engineering की किताबें इक्कीस हज़ार रुपए की बिकी थी. I still remember old bookshop में. मेरे पास वो पैसे थे तो मैंने दो महीने का rent दिया एक building को और उधर दो कमरे लेकर उनको सजाकर colorful करके light shadow लगाकर बस सबको बता दिया कि यह बच्चों की safe space है, यह इनकी day care है. बजाय इसके के buyer फेरें, सारा कुछ करें. Let them come in here. I'll feed them a meal and we'll keep them safe. That was the goal. That was it. Right. और यह I think this is around November दो हज़ार ग्यारह, first day of the daycare and a 100 people walking. वह सारा कच्ची बादी के लोग खड़े हुए अपने बच्चे लेकर and they're like कौन सा curriculum पढ़ाएंगे? क्या syllabus है? आप कितने teacher रखेंगे आप? And I was like school नहीं है, school नहीं है. मैं नहीं पढ़ाना चाहता. हां. They're like आप इधर हैं तो आप उनको पढ़ाने की भी कोशिश करें. That was twelve years ago. I fell in love with it right there and then. मैंने बच्चों को पढ़ाना शुरू किया and एक एक certain sense पर मुझे उन बच्चों में अपना reflection भी नज़र आता था. मुझे पता था कि now I had been through that experience. I had खाना नहीं खाया होता था, धूप में फिरे होते थे and if I didn't deliver like a killer killer killer session for them for a class, if I didn't turn fractions into the most wonderful thing in the world, they would simply lose attention. मेरे बहुत से ऐसे बच्चे थे जो classroom छोड़कर चले जाते थे, जो classroom से भाग जाते थे simply because उनको interest नहीं था in what we were studying and what we were looking at. वहां से I discovered what it meant to be a great teacher, and what it felt like when a classroom was fully and completely immersed in their learning experience. This was what year? 2011. 2011. And so, you started तादियां बाद in 2015, right? So, ग्यारह से पंद्रह में की दरमियान क्या हो रहा था? Yeah, so I ran this school for, for two years. पहले साल में इस पूरे school को चलाता रहा. A lot of students began to join in. बहुत से बच्चे जो street children थे वह school मारा शुरू हो गए. तलितु सैन used to be in Pakistan at that point. He did a show on the school. We began to receive a whole lot of donations. हमने school के operations को expand करना शुरू कर दिया. And then I got accepted into जोशांत. अच्छा, कतर? कतर, yeah. अच्छा. I did, I started at जोशांत in कतर but then I also spent time in the campus in DC. And And what was the program? The program, it was called the Bachelor's in Foreign Service. It's basically EconPOL. और वहां पर, Qatar में, when I was studying over there, met, Dr. Thomas Cassidy. He was a director at the graduate graduate school of education at Harvard. वह सब research कर रहे थे into, schooling. And and he was comparing, you know, elite context and underserved environments. एक बच्चा जो कि out of school है in interior sin for example और एक बच्चा जो सबसे elite schoolओं में जा रहा है in The US, what really is different about how to teach both of these sets of children? Because अक्सर हम वह privilege को factor in नहीं करते. तो वह भी अपने साथ मुझे I did an executive education program with him. We studied some of the top schools in The US that time. वह Pakistan की हकूमत के साथ भी काम करते रहे, जिया की हकूमत के साथ काम किया, भूटों की हकूमत के साथ काम. अच्छा. With बेनज़ीर as well. And so he brought with him all of these. He'd seen more of Pakistan than I had and he brought with him this missionary zeal. वह Pakistan में आते थे और वह train पे बैठते थे and एक train लेते लेते लेते he would go down south because they were trying to help the पाक्सानी government build programs to serve out of school children. And so, मैं तीन साल I was in Georgetown. वहां से भी, you know, everybody had their beds कि मैं छोड़ना हूं वहां से. But I went to the dean in the first year and said I I really want to be back home doing this. Right. Can I get out of fare fast? उन्होंने कहा, हां सही है. Summer से गाएं आप और winters लगाएं अपने and then you can be out of fare in three years. I I enjoyed every part of that. It was a four year program वैसे? It a four year program. Yeah. I did it in three and then, started in 2012, came back in 2015. And as soon as I landed, you know, that was it. तालीम अहमद was born at that time. Right and जब originally आपने start किया हुआ was a thought behind you then? So, जब मैंने पहला वाला जो school run किया था, उसके बाद बस मुझे obsession थी. Georgetown में मेरे जो colleagues थे, खास तो पर DC में वह congressman के बच्चे थे, politicians के बच्चे थे. It had the institution had a very rich history. Bill Clinton went there, Cordelliser Rice went there. हमारा हर दूसरा classmate कह रहा होता था मैंने congressman बनना है. कोई तीसरा कहता था कि हां, reasonable chances लगते हैं कि मैं अमरीका का president वन जो और extra की मेरी run दिखेगी. And so, you know, I used to be there thinking about my school back home. वह school beach में बंद भी हो गए. There was nobody to run it. हां. और मेरी बस एक obsession थी कि अब मैंने वापस आना है और मैंने यह, you know, हज़ारों schools में इसको करना है. And so, when I came back और सब आप naive होते हैं. At that point the idea was कि Pakistan में बहुत ज़्यादा shipping containers कराची से आते हैं और कराची से आकर फिर इस्लामवाद, लाहौर, इन जगहों पर आते हैं. फिर उनको वापस transport करने की कीमत often बहुत high होती है. तो आपने देखा dry ports में वह stack up होना शुरू हो जाते हैं और फिर जलसों में वह stage वन जाते हैं या किसी को block करने के लिए इस्तेमाल किए जाते हैं. Right. But in other context in the world उनको refurbish करके उनको schooling environments भी बनाया गया है. Right. And so we thought that initial stage के that's a good way to replicate a school environment. And then we sat down, this has been a principle at तालीमाबाद. We sat down with some people and said, आपके लिए हम लोग container वाला, school container वाले poke some holes in it. And they said, आपको पता है, and these were, Afghan refugees जो कि Afghanistan से इधर आए थे during the, American invasion. उसके बाद जो हालात खराब हुए थे. उन्होंने बताया कि अमरीकियों के आने से पहले तालिबान जो है ना वह torture करने के लिए एक container के अंदर आपको डाल के बंद कर देते थे और फिर that was the most excruciating form of torture because हमारे climate के अंदर it is crazy how fast it heats up. Right. And there is a metal, right? हां yeah, metal और उसमें गलती से आपको cut लग जाए तो यह most most of these containers weren't treated तो आपको poisoning भी हो सकती थी. Right. Lethal भी हो सकता था. And we sat there thinking कि कितना अजीबो गरीब idea था. अब हमने कहा चलो हम nominee schools बनाते हैं. हमने एक बच्ची बस्ती में school बनाना शुरू किया और वह अगले दिन आपने खबरों में देखा होगा दो हज़ार पंद्रह में वह पूरी जो I 10 metro के सामने ली बस्ती थी उसको हमने raise कर दिया. Right. And it was a controversial move. उसके कुछ लोग support भी कर रहे थे, कुछ लोग against भी थे but this was happening in immediate aftermath of the 2015. Right. APS school attack. Right right. और we were really clamping down on, you know, where the threat was. Right. और बस यह believe किया जाता था कि इधर बहुत ज़्यादा threats हैं. खैर जब वह भी plan हमारी shelf हो गए, तो हम लोग बहुत ज़्यादा disheartened थे. मैं ख़ास में बहुत ज़्यादा disheartened था. तो मैंने एक बस्ता पकड़ा और we set out on a journey हमने कहा कि surely we don't have any answer. हमें नहीं पता कैसे करना है. हमें बस एक north star पता है कि हमें Pakistan के कोने कोने में like great teaching पहुंचानी है. And so हम फिर it was me and a colleague of mine. पहले तो हम rent a car करके जाते थे फिर हमें notice करना शुरू किया कि हम जब गांव में पहुंचते थे we were travelling across Pakistan rural Pakistan. जब हम गांव में पहुंचते थे तो लोग वह झुक के जो है वह सलाम करते थे और कहते थे आपको हम कैसे serve करें? तो HJM ने क्या किया कि हमने एक motorcycle ले ली और motorcycle सत्र सी थी. उस पर हमने एक main शहर पहुंचते थे. वहां से एक rent rent a bike वाला होता है. वह साठ रुपए में आपको bike rent कर देता है. अच्छा. ठीक है. हम bike लेकर फिर सारे चख और सारे villages में जाकर literally पूरा पूरा दिन, पूरा पूरा हफ्ता, पूरा पूरा महीना गुजारते थे. Right. And this is where I think the real sort of learning of तालीमाबाद happened.

Interesting जो आपने यह वाली बात की. How did you, because infrastructure in Pakistan is not very conducive. When यहां में तालीम से ज़रूरत है अटके, मैं connectivity to rural and urban की बात करना चाहूंगा कि this in itself an urban city boy really just beginning to go to rural. First of all, I'd like to know, okay, were you once you were going in on a bike, were you welcome? How did you find a place to stay at? Was it more like you would go and you would hit a village in the morning or evening or afternoon? And then you come back to a city and get a local hotel or whatever. Yum. What was going on there? Because काफ़ी दफा मैंने यह सोचा है कि यार कितना मज़ेगा अगर Pakistan में इस तरह से बंदा backpack एक पहने और जी निकल जाए. Pakistan explore करने के खासकर सिंह वाली side पर ऐसे ban and you know सूफी का पूरा वह system है तो उसके around आपके स्थान पर then you really begin to think कि यार जब तक के specific tourist hotspots जहां पर होटलिंग and then वह जब तक infrastructure नहीं है how are you going to survive? So what was that experience like for you? एक तो I think there is a lot of, there is a lot of male privilege.

मर्द जा रहे थे दो और by the time हम लोग उन गांव और लाखों में पहुंचते थे तो हमारी हालत ऐसी हो चुकी होती थी एक case में हमने you know we did an area जिसके अंदर हमने जानबूझकर अपने hotel budget निकाल दिया था. So we were जब hotel budget होता है तो आप करीब कोई शहर ढूंढते हैं और उसमें कोई mobile phone भी छोड़े, TV भी छोड़े, कुछ भी नहीं था. But the people were very welcoming.

And you would just sort of cold call them like randomly walk into a village and say कि listen like we are here to look at your school or what? No, think there was some kind of like pre planning involved.

एक आम आदमी कोई गरीब आदमी को तालीम की फ़िक्र नहीं है. This is an absolute myth. They have been cheated out of what they should be gaining in the system. But दूसरी चीज़ शाम को ढाबे पर जाकर बैठते थे. वह डेढ़े पर जाकर बैठते थे. हम वह करते थे. Tubal पर कपड़े होते थे. हम वह करते थे. लेकिन हर सुबह consistently schoolओं में पढ़ाते थे. Right. And the kind of classrooms that we began to be exposed to and the kind of gaps. एक तो पहले here's what a typical day look like. हम सुबह जाते थे, सात बजे पहुंचते थे, school पहुंचते थे, school के अंदर हम पढ़ाना शुरू करते थे. Through and through हम फिर इन बच्चों के साथ पूरा पूरा दिन गुज़ाते थे. अब हम मैं आपको एक मिसाल देता हूं कि हम बच्चों के साथ काम कर रहे थे इन बच्चों को division सिखा रहे थे. Now 48% of kids in Pakistan को division को सवाल नहीं करना आता. They really struggle Drains हैं, drains की capacity इतनी ही नहीं है. वह इतना पानी जैस नहीं कर रहे हैं और वह पानी जो है खड़ा हो जाता है. That's an actual application of simultaneous linear equation, right? Right. The drains. And so, इसी plants का एक तरफ़्तों का border लगाते हैं वह erosion prevent करने के लिए. उस context में बात करते थे. ऐसे ऐसे सबको concept समझ आता था. So, we learnt what it meant to truly deliver contextualize education over there. Fell in love with the teaching profession even more but also discovered what needed to happen. दूसरी चीज़ हम यह discover कर रहे थे. You know, एक India के border के पास चिष्टियां एक जगह है, वहां पर बच्चे थे जो इंटों के भट्टों पर काम करते थे. School में उनके लिए आना बहुत मुश्किल था क्योंकि वह पूरा पूरा दिन Jio की अगर 8,000,000 viewership है somebody was quoting the other day, PTV is still 54,000,000. अच्छा. PG, Jio और यह सारी यह cable network है, right? हां. तो आप दो minute के लिए इस्लामवाद लोहौकर आची से थोड़ा सा buy step करें और majority of Pakistan जो है वह तो PDU ही देखता है. Right. Right? So PDU is still a thing, is still a thing, is still the major main thing for a lot of people and यह बस हमें नज़र आ रहा था कि यह trend of technology and we decided कि if we are to spread the love of learning and quality teaching, that using technology would be a good conduit to doing doing that. Interesting.

So so, you went through this sort of tour tour de Pakistan. And then how long was this? This kept on happening on and off for a good part of two years, I think. अच्छा. Yeah. And then you were setting up तारीमाबाद locally और उससे जब early on आपने किया था तो what was the thought? क्या product आपने? क्योंकि जो physical schooling थी वह तो clearly was not working out. Yeah. And so what was the first MVP that you MVP, so we we

came back. I mean, हम इन trips के beach में इस्लामाद आते रहते थे. इस्लामाद में we put together a team. पहला iteration उसका was actually a puppet show. My legs started to hurt because जब इस्लामाबाद वापस आते थे तो table के नीचे सिर्फ bend हुए होते थे और ऊपर अपने हाथ किए होते थे और एक puppet show बना रहे होते थे because Sesame Street was really we had seen the success of Sesame Street with work with a lot of people. Globally. Globally जो Sesame Street को look up करते थे. तो पहला iteration वह था और फिर जब हम निकलते थे to go to these schools and work with these children again. कुछ out of school थे, कुछ in school थे. तो हम अपने साथ tablet लेकर जाते थे और उन बच्चों को जाकर दिखाते थे कहते थे Tom and Jerry भी है सब कुछ है जो मर्ज़ी देखने हैं यह लो अपने सामने tablet रखो तालीमाबाद देखना तालीमाबाद देख लो and we used to measure two things. यह और एक तराजू था. एक side पर engagement you know your kid will wash through the entire episode. Right. और दस minute से ऊपर तो आप aim ही ना करें, नहीं होगा. दूसरी चीज़, the kid will walk away knowing how to, you know, reuse the concept in either the day to day lives or be able to replicate it in a test. वरना कोई भी उसको मानेगा ही नहीं. Parts में लेकर जाता है. Conceptually great stuff. The kids wash through the end and sometimes wash it 10 times over. Right. जब exam का time आया तो उन्होंने सवाल था what is photosynthesis? तो उन्होंने exam में लिखा पंजाबी में थोड़ी सी गड्डियां होंदी ने तो फिर देख गुंदी है. ते पौदेश देगांह बंदियां ने ते फिर गड्डी तेजांदी ने and nobody would accept that for an answer, right? Right. And so sometimes we'd hate it really off in this sense. Academy take video बना देते थे और यह remember खान academy हमने दोनों ने देखा होगा at some Right. Point in जब हम लोग फिक्रमंद थे अपनी पढ़ाई के बारे में, हमें learning outcomes अपने improve करने में कोई ना कोई incentive था, वालदेन थे या कोई भी था और फिर जाकर हम वह video देख लेते थे. Right. And we were thinking about the tenth million kid that we were going to reach one day and trying to reverse it. उसी वक्त उसको build इस्तेरा कर रहे थे कि ultimately even if this gets broadcast we know it has a fair likelihood of being used. तो यह simultaneously दोनों साथ साथ चल रहा था. वन भी रहा था, test भी हो रहा था, फिर द्वारा I trade. हमने कोई चार हज़ार videos जो हैं content pieces trash किए उन दो सालों में, बनाकर destroy किए. Right. Till we hit that really sweet spot जिसके अंदर वह video end तक देख भी लेता था, कभी कभी rewatch भी करता था independently. कोई teacher नहीं खड़ा, हम नहीं खड़े पर, ख़ुद ही देखता था बच्चा.

और फिर उसके बाद testing में they were able to zip through all of the assessments as well. Very cool. And I believe, सोचो यह तो आप अभी essentially, were you working with like public schools at this time? दीवी working with schools. Who were the, so who was the focus group जो कि basically in school? Public and low fee private schools. अच्छा. यानी कि पांच सौ रुपए वाला school या फिर completely government school. Right. And you were, like, so, you had your own app at the time या अभी app नहीं बनी थी content? App नहीं बनी थी. यह तो सिर्फ एक video होती थी. MP

four format में एक video होती थी और एक device पर होती थी. That was it. जब हमने इसको, videos को बनाना शुरू किया और उन्हें काम करना शुरू किया तो उसके बाद हमने notice करना शुरू किया कि बहुत ज़्यादा लोग जो हैं वह यह ask करते थे कि you know we want to watch this content again. We don't just want to watch it when you're here. तो as an experimental thing, उसकी एक app बनी थी. उस app के अंदर सिर्फ़ videos पड़ी हुई थी. And simultaneously at the same time, you know, we were working pushing PTB a lot कि आप इसको experiment तो करके देखें. And then when फिर दौस आयशेखवान became the information minister तो we got a chance to meet with her. और हम लोगों के साथ बैठे हुए तो उन्होंने कहा यह क्या है? हमने कहा अगर आपने एक पूरी कौम को मोहब्बत करानी है पढ़ने से तो this is one of the ways to do it and then here's how Sesame Street did it for The US but this is curricular content. Coming ने साहब के ऊपर बना हुआ है. And surprisingly P2B authorized it. सुबह सात बजे, शाम पांच बजे वाले जो children prime time slot होता है उस पर on air कर दिया और फिर beach beach में अब this this point broadcast एक लग चुकी थी हमारी episodes बंद बंद उस पर जा रही थी. Mobile app by and large mobile app का you know one thing was कि broadcast लोगों से miss हो जाती थी. फिर जब हमें वह phone करते थे तो हम पूछते थे यार आपके पास on a weekly basis tune in. It's a regular presence now on PTV. Right. So, as of today, if someone was to go to PTV home? PTV home?

Morning 7PM. 7AM. 7AM and then 5PM in the evening.

तो they will, watch तालियों अहमद का content. Running for an hour? Sometimes half an hour. Right now अब हम इसको क्योंकि हकूमत ने जब से teleschool का experiment किया तो it it was reasonably effective और फिर दूसरा अब flights भी आ गए. तो the government got a committee of experts from the World Bank and teach for all and teach for Pakistan to review the content. तारिवाद content did very highly. Right. उसमें बहुत से सारे organizations जितने भी Pakistan में tech में content बना रहे थे. And it was a very controversial approach that time. The World Bank ranks it incredibly high now. And so the World Bank in partnership with the government अब चार dedicated channels launch हो रहे हैं जो round the clock programming करेंगे because इसकी popularity इतनी है कि आप आप imagine करें ना आधे घंटे के slot में आप क्या fill in करेंगे? हां. One के grade, one grade, two grade, three grade, four grade, five grade किस बच्चे को पढ़ाएंगे? हां. So it was limited. It was a catchment. एक दिन हम grade one कर देते थे, एक दिन grade two कर देते थे और अब एक नया science bean एक show है जो बना है जो एक specific you know science के concepts बच्चों को सिखा रहा है और science का love पैदा कर रहा But वह जो proper curricular programming है ना SLO by SLO वह अब government के dedicated चार channels पर हुआ And those channels have been launched? No, not yet. But I think in the next And six this is like a teleschool of sorts. क्या यह? PTV school है? क्या what's the call? What sort? उसको teleschool नहीं कह रहे हैं. उसको यह PTV के channels हैं. आपको याद है हमारे बचपन में अलामा इकबाल open वह चार channels होंगे और different different grades की different different channels होंगे I believe और वह free to air होंगे. वह सौ रुपए एक antenna पर आपको वह मिल सकते हैं channels. So, you don't need a special cable connection for it. Very cool. That's being launched and तालीम बाद's content is a big feature of it. अच्छा. And who are are partnered? I think for this one, so the ones that ended up winning the bid were, it's Knowledge Platform, I believe, it's Salimabad, it's Sabak,

and it's, near peer. अच्छा. So, I mean, all the top four, essentially, you know, is this time के ऊपर. And this is all free of cost. Right? So Yeah. Very cool. So at this point in time, if I were to ask you कि तालीमाबाद जो है, what what I understand is that you guys have, the the broadcasting that's happening on television. And then you have an app as well. Tell me about the app. What's what's, I mean, how do you explain the app to an average user जिसको तालीमाबाद का कुछ नहीं पता, आपके history का कुछ नहीं पता. ताली और app का नाम तालीमाबाद ही है? Is it on Android and iOS or just Android? IOS में भी है but iOS की version इतनी ज़्यादा frequently हम update नहीं करते because हमारी total user base में से like 0.005. I understand if you are targeting a particular segment. Yeah. So, वह, what's the app? So basically if you have to explain it to a layman,

आपका बच्चा अगर K to five grades में between the ages of three to 12, वह school जाता है या नहीं जाता. कोई भी topic उसने पढ़ना है, maths, science, english, उर्दू, इस्लामियत, social studies, general knowledge उसको उसके हर SLO के ऊपर उसको video भी मिलेगी, cartoon भी मिलेगा और वैसे ही cartoon के बाद gamified assessments भी मिलेंगी. सही है. So, ना सिर्फ़ बच्चा सीख सकता है but अपने knowledge को test भी कर सकता है और interactive तरीके से practice भी कर सकता है. Very good. It's one of the top rated apps. 4.5 out of five ratings by seven or 8,000 people now. And basically, it's a one stop solution for anybody to just get their kids to learn. If you want, I can also show you bits of it. Yeah, I'd love to, I'd love to see कि किस तरह की है.

IOS पर आपने कहा वह नहीं है so we'll have to find a Do you want me to show it? Yeah yeah, on this? Can. So, I mean,

let me just show you one part, okay? Remember how we studied उर्दू? Yeah. हमें अंग्रेज़ी में हर किस्म का font मिलता था. हर किस्म के Microsoft Word में बचपन जाकर सौ किस्म के fonts के साथ खेलते थे. हां. और फिर उर्दू जब पढ़ने की बारी आती थी ना तो उर्दू में एक तो उर्दू wasn't. There is a character in तालीमाबाद चाचा बतून and यह चाचा बतून है और चाचा बतून जो है वह बच्चों से इमला करा रहे हैं और in this इमला feature now these are all floating letters but if you hold one of these letters try holding one of them. Oh interesting. So it makes a sound. So वह आपने सही वाला जो है guide करके उसके अंदर करना होता है. And if you do it wrong वह आपको पता भी देता है कि आपने यह ग़लत किया है और जब आप उठा रहे हैं तो वह उसकी आवाज़ भी निकाल रहा है, right?

There couple of dead campaigns there as well so that that is confused.

Interesting. अब खुद से result आ लो. अब वह second stage में you have to do it yourself and you have to figure it out yourself और यह endless एक यह words यह एक algorithm है जो words बच्चे के ऊपर देता रहता देता रहता है, देता रहता है. But this is for example younger kids. But look at how उर्दू feels in this. Yeah, yeah, It's a completely different experience. चाचा बतून sometimes appears, sometimes is a vampire, sometimes is another character. But kids start to develop a better phonetical

base for their लिए understanding of उर्दू. उर्दू सिर्फ़ आठ आठ फीसद दबाती की माती ज़िमान है and अगर हमने पढ़ाना ही उर्दू में है, जो most commonly बच्चे हां, आप अंग्रेज़ी को पढ़ेकर जा रहे हैं but आपने सबसे पहले तो एक commonality अगर create करनी है within the country, I think that that जैसे India में हिंदी है. हां, जिससे आप at least within the system communicate कर सकते हैं. Yeah. Pakistan में unfortunately कोई बड़े areas हैं जहां पर वह पश्तों है and टूटीपूटी English है. कई बार सिंधी है और हिंद को है और यह और वह है. You don't have one common language unfortunately. Yeah. Okay. So you have the app and the app is downloaded how many times? 1,500,000, I believe. And what's the average monthly average users? 160,000. अच्छा, समझदार. And then I believe you have a third product as well that you guys launched recently. So

we hit our five year mark in 2020. Remember, मैंने आपको बताया था when we set out, the thinking was हम यह सिर्फ़ तभी करेंगे जब हम teaching as a whole and learning as a whole को transform कर सकते हैं. So, our original mandate the goal was अगर मुल्की trajectory को आप change कर सकते then it's worth doing otherwise I mean, be go go home, right? Yeah, go be go home. And so, we we sat down and said, look, we've got a broadcast and an app that both are doing reasonably well. वह अब broadcast app को feed कर रही थी, app से लोग broadcast देखते थे. It was in sustainable system. पर a lot of the times we felt कि अगर बच्चे की एक तदीर बदलनी है in the way मेरे जो पहले सबसे पहले students थे वह अब बारह साल हो गए उस पहले दिन को. They they are graduating now and and doing things. उनमें से एक जो है वह coding सीख रहा है. उसने I think दसवीं जमात pass की और वह coding और यह वह भी out of school था. दसवीं जमात pass की और Fiverr पर count बनाकर code करके websites American clients को बनाकर दे रहे और रहता भी भी कच्ची बात नहीं है but you can see that path out Right. From Right. एक एक fashion designer बहुत interesting है. Interested है और उसके fashion designs are something to look at. Right. You know, कहते मैंने fashion designer का course करना है और मैं fashion designer बनूंगा और मैं slum से आया हुआ fashion designer बनूंगा. What I mean to say is कि बच्चे की तकदीर बदलना अगर आपने तकदीर तकदीर करनी है तो एक app से या broadcast से sure that initial spark can happen. But as teachers we are firmly rooted in the belief कि वह ऐसा नहीं होगा आप एक app बना दें supplementary learning के लिए. Right. You've got to go to the root of the problem and the root of the problem, let me describe it as what it is. हमारे बच्चे school जाते हैं और school जाकर आधे बच्चे एक जुमला भी नहीं पढ़ना सीख सकते. एक तो बाइस million out of school हैं. School जाते हैं, आधे primary जमात मुकम्मल करके एक जुमला भी नहीं पढ़ पाते. That's how bad it is. Why is somebody going to trust the education system when it is so rotten and delivers no value to you at all? हमारे teaching का हाल देख लें. हमारे हमारे there is no teaching license in Pakistan. कोई भी teacher वन सकता है. भाई जो teacher बनता उसको कोई इज़्ज़त नहीं देते हो. कहते हैं और कोई job नहीं लगी तो आप teacher वन गए. जब मैं पहली तरह teacher बनाया तो मेरे boss ज़्यादा is 3,000 rupees. Yeah, less than the minimum wage essentially. Yes yes and less मतलब इससे ज़्यादा तो इस्लामबाद में if you become like a, you know, house worker you can and teachers know that fact and they and they are not so happy about that fact. तो यह हमारे education system का हाल था लेकिन फिर उसके बावजूद क्योंकि state वह burden नहीं ले पा रही थी. Pakistan में एक पूरा private school का segment जो है has blossomed. Decentralized, unregulated, 43% of the population goes to these schools in Pakistan now. और we felt at that point कि हमने content बना लिया, हमने teaching कर लिया है, हमने broadcast कर लिया है 2PM period and we are like यही एक रह गया है जिसमें you know if you are going to build the school of the future, laid on on different verticals. यह एक जगह रह गई थी जहां हम काम नहीं कर रहे थे. It was ripe for disruption. बहुत से हमारे users जो थे वह existing teachers थे या existing parents थे जो private school, low fee private school में पांच सौ छह सौ वाले बच्चों को भिजवाते थे और weren't happy with what was happening. इसकी वजह से वह broadcast देखते थे और हमारे platform को इस्तेमाल करते थे. So, already had some institutional knowledge in that area. तो one of the things that we started late in 2020 I believe or early twenty twenty one, twenty twenty one was we said हम बनाएंगे यह पूरे के पूरे market segment के लिए एक aggregator. The first thing is imagine like करीम for example. करीम में एक captain होता जो अपनी गाड़ी लगाता है. इधर भी एक entrepreneur होता है जिसको literally पैसे कमाने हैं और पैसे कमाने के लिए अपनी एक building को या एक cryope building लेकर वह school खड़ा करने की कोशिश करता है. अब उसको एक main problem the huge market, right? तो आपको नहीं पता कि teacher को train कैसे करना है? आपको यह नहीं पता कि teacher को monitor कैसे करना है और incentivize कैसे करना है? और most of all आपको यह नहीं पता कि अपने आप को market कैसे करना है? अपने business को grow कैसे करना है? दस हज़ार बिजली के bill निकल गए, पीछे rent भी निकल गया तो आपके लिए तो कुछ बचता ही नहीं है, right? हां. And so most of the people who are running schools they, they really lament the fact कि वह इस industry में आ गए थे. कहते हैं कुछ भी नहीं बचता. कोई काम की चीज़ नहीं है. We are really disappointed. I mean, so

teachers are also crying because they are not paying paid enough. Schools aren't making any money either. It's just,

I mean, it's a broken system unfortunately. It's a broken system and it collapsed. COVID के दौरान you know, the right incentives are given to this sector, I think यह Pakistan की state का एक बहुत बड़ा एक pillar वन सकता है. Now, पाक्सानी government needs to set up thousands of schools on a daily basis. If we had to get to the out of school problem, out of school student problem way or even to improve quality of learning. तो हमने क्या किया? हमने इन schoolओं को जायेगा. आप आपको हम एक platform देंगे. हमारी guarantee कि आपकी teacher you know international standard से train होगी. उसको certification भी मिल जाएगी. Teacher को जाकर हमने बोला आपको don't worry exam generate होगा topic का button दबाएंगे और आपको exam generate होकर आ जाएगा. आपने training आपको video की form में आएगी और super engaging videos होंगी. आपको assessments होंगे और आपने complete कर लिया तो आपको end पर एक बड़ा सा certificate आएगा you know, stand by an international authority. और वह अक्सर teachers उसके लिए इतना ज़्यादा enthusiastic होती हैं कि वह अपने घर में ना वह circuit frame कराकर drawing room में अपने लगाती हैं कि सब guest को दिखाते हैं वह जो बातें हैं. So teachers को यह बोला और parents को यह बोला on the other end हम imagine broadcast पर एक बहुत बड़ा net, wide net था. Millions of people watching on broadcast mobile app पर. उनकी locations भी अक्सर हमारे पास होती थी. वह हमें data भी submit करते थे कि मेरे बच्चे की उम्र है, इस class में पढ़ता है. हमने उनको कहना शुरू कर दिया, okay, we'll pair you up with a really great school. We promise you that they'll have excellent quality, excellent teachers, excellent everything. But उनका जो trust build किया हुआ था, इन schools को हमने कह दिया powered तालीमाबाद. Right. और यह जैसे ही powered by तालीमाबाद network के अंदर आते थे तो हम parents को pair करना शुरू कर देते. School owner को मिलता था business gain and the opportunity to grow the school. जितने भी school आए तीस चालीस सीसद additional उनका down वह foot fall हुआ और parents को एक high quality वो मिलती थी teachers को एक finally एक शोभा नज़र आता था. उन्होंने हमारी app के अंदर training लेती हैं उसके बाद quizzes लेती हैं उसके बाद उनका एक leader board आता है कि school के best teacher कौन हैं, इलाके के best teacher कौन हैं, जिले के best teacher कौन हैं, सुबह के best teacher कौन हैं, मुल्क के best teachers कौन हैं the the the players in the ecosystem are all connected to this platform. हां. Everybody wins in some kind of way. And and and this is, how many schools are you looking at now with, who are connected to? We've done one year. In one year we've done about a 140, 144

actually right now. And these are monthly

active users. They are paying a subscription fee every month and they are it for six and a half hours every day in the classroom. Very cool. They are, their kids are going back and using the app or watching the broadcast at home. They are getting the full injection so to speak. Right. यह सुबह भी बच्चे school से पहले cartoon देख आते हैं TV पर. Teachers उनकी trained होती हैं. Teachers हमारे you know scripts को follow करती हैं to run a great classroom. यह बच्चे घर जाते इनके parents को already update आया होता जिससे fraction पड़ा है और फिर इनके parents को notification भी आया होता अगर revise कराने तो यह button दबाएं. Tuition पर ना भेजें बच्चे को. यह button दबाएं और यह सारा कुछ उसको revise करा दें in case the kids want to learn again. Right. So, so the entire ecosystem essentially is right there and in case of a a potential

lockdown, are you... Do you already have or are you working on some sort of a a distant learning program as well?

I think हमारा approach to, like, a lockdown is कि, अक्सर cases में उस case में decentralize करके at large एक mass को कहना कि आप content produce करें, it is often a messy process. वह quality maintain ही नहीं हो सकती. So, in terms of lockdown, हमारे जब lockdown हुआ था तो हमने lockdown के ऊपर हमने खुद बहुत ज़्यादा content production की थी. But हमारे teachers भी जो interested होते थे हम कहते थे क्या what what are you wanting to teach and क्या approach लेना है और फिर वह खुद produce करते थे because एक consistent high quality experience. Most बच्चों का lockdown में complaint यह थी कि Zoom में इतना कुछ गंदा experience होता है या online बहुत गंदा experience होता है. And we don't want to do that. So इसलिए तालिमाद इस lockdown में सारा content जो है ख़ुद ही produce करके एक centralized platform के through deliver किया जाता ताकि बच्चे का faith ना ख़राब होगे. Online is much more boring than Than real life. In real life. And so what sort of schools are there? Are these like your average lower middle income schools? Yes, में variation है. You have some sort of middle class school as well and then Mostly on average यह, you know, हज़ार, पंद्रह सौ, दो हज़ार, इस range में ज़्यादातर school हैं. But for example, एक wants to be part of a bigger umbrella. Right. Wants to be part of a network, sees value in it and also rapidly

आप, वह भी कर सकते हो, aggregate भी कर सकते हो. Makes sense. Very interesting model, particularly यह school वाला because what you're saying is कि you're standardizing, at least this sort of education system this unregulated market. आप उनको through by proxy of certification, by proxy of your own eventually audits. You can at least identify कि यार एक for example beacon house आता ना जब गुजरात या गुजरात में तो बड़े अच्छे से हैं. मैं कहता हूं beacon house आता है I don't know, लड़काना में. I don't know if you guys have a beacon house. But let's just say कि beacon house आता है लड़काना में. People are a लड़काना who probably travel regularly to कराची will have this sort of a brand affinity and मिल लो कि यार बच्चे को बस आप भीख ना उसे भेजना है क्योंकि you know cyber सितात at least जो है वहां पर. But for most part schools did not have a brand feature. Yeah. And and a minimum viable sort of benchmarking that could identify कि यार at least Good school from a bad school. हां, यह चीज़ तो आपको मिले ही मिलेगी, right? Like, it's it's a it's a total hit or miss. There is absolutely no understanding. And and so when you're beginning to make that aggregator, at the very least, what you're what you're doing is कि you're you're telling people. And I don't know how it works, but my understanding is when you have that sort of data engine, for an average parent, in its eventuality, they should be able to identify कि यार, मेरी जो location के ऊपर कौन से schools available हैं? तालिमाबाद sponsored और और partnered and उनकी ratings क्या हैं? उनका क्या user reviews क्या हैं? And so because you're able to understand us whole lot of things, a range of things like मैं honestly मेरा बेटा है छोटा है. It's not really about mass market और lower middle income और यह schooling is broken in Pakistan through three sixty degree. आज अगर मैं let's suppose मैं तो चलो आप श्राहाबाद कहूं Beacon House का मुझे पता है या मुझे city का पता है या मुझे because of the fact that the market is so privatized. कि ranking and aggregation becomes a very powerful tool. Just for an average user just to begin to understand कि you know schools. यार restaurants क्या करते ना? Yelp है. Yelp for

education needs to exist in in a country like Pakistan. Yeah. That's exactly what's happening और दूसरा जो standardization is to an extent I mean it's a bit jarring how standardization works up. If you walk into our school in गिलगित or you walk into our school in, let's say, Feslabad or Kotadu, you will find if you walk in on the same day, somehow manage to be in the same place at the same time, they are almost doing exactly the same thing. When a lesson has to be executed, it it gets executed into a standardized extent to the आपने बोलना भी है, देखना भी है, करना भी है. And, of course, over time, teachers learn how to modify that to their need, but the standardization is right down to the minute, right down to the dialogue. Right. We have to understand कि हमारे यहां teacher शायद अक्सर वह cases में वह teacher भी बनने होते हैं जो जिनको खुद वह concept हमारी teacher ने हमें feedback एक बड़ा अन्य feedback दिया है anonymous. उनका eventually over time teachers उस standardization को they use it as a floor not the ceiling. You know आपने फिर एक time तक एक चीज़ करते रहे फिर आप उसको use to jump, use that as a springboard to jump off that and teaching quality improves in those places. Makes sense.

If I were to understand this correctly, and and and these are how does how does it work? So it's like someone opens a school and calls it, let's say Muzamil School. Muzamil School. Right? So and then I partner with तालिमा बात. What does the branding say and how how much branding guidelines like how many brand guidelines exist जिसमें मुझे touch points के बितालिमा बात नज़र आ रहा है?

आपको. So, we do a lot of the sort of appeals and the marketing on behalf of the school but also क्योंकि broadcast और mobile app है तो काफी ज़्यादा users उसके vicinity मिल जाते हैं जो वह होते हैं. Right. In terms of like, you know, आप GT Road पर जाएंगे. आपको GT Road पर यहां से निकलती है रवात में एक तालिमा पाऊंगाई तालिमा school नज़र आएगा. वह कहता है कि no, I want to go all in. Yeah. I think kids watch it on TV. I think मैंने पैसे खर्च करने हैं इसको brand करने में. तो उसका school नीला, green, blue, yellow, all sorts of colors. तालीमाबाद का जो brand color है and वह बहुत ज़्यादा तालीमाबाद theme. You can see it from like a kilometer away, right? So So so, my that's my question, right? Like, there is a there's an element of education and then there's an element of Business. Business. Yeah. And

business is important for growth. You can always work on grants and and and and sort of the the goodwill of the human society for only as much. एक certain time के बाद आप उसको जाकर कहीं ना कहीं एक model create हैं जिस पर it can sort of grow on its own. And and what we've seen is in Pakistan Beacon House को मैं SVC देता हूं the largest private network in the world. Shocking. Pakistan has the largest real estate provider and the largest private real estate provider, the largest private school network. Maybe hopefully the largest health care network as well, private. What interesting है कि, you know, हमारा private sector आता है. It's doing some very big strides but वह generally upper middle को target करता है. And what I am hearing from you is you are you are beginning to take that model and you are mass marketing it, right? But then उसके अंदर आपको certain human elements behaviors के साथ खेलना पड़ता है. जिन behaviors में मैं अगर TCF को देखता हूँ तो TCF स्नाहाबाद, TCF पिंडी, TCF again लड़काना will look very similar. And and and वह यही है कि that school is running through donations and वह but the I mean TCF is a is a phenomenal program that they've created. And so how do you, मेरे हिसाब से the way that तालीमाबाद has now become is is is more or at least will eventually become more of a school franchise than the other way around. Like right now you're saying you're going in. You're saying, listen. We're aiding you into this system. It's just really about how you think about it. You're gonna be doing the same thing. But this the the primary brand, it's really about the brand. Right? Can you can Taalimabad become that brand where it begins to pull people in? Can OA levels is a brand to be very honest. For most parents who are big, जिनकी पहली generation OA levels में जा रही है उनको नहीं पता कि इनका बच्चा अच्छा बुरा. It's a brand that pulls you in and says कि listen you need to do OA levels because the chances of success are much higher. So they're gonna save up that money and they're gonna pay tons of fees for school as well as for exams. Similarly, can that potentially happen for तालीमाबाद? And can tears be created? कि आप जिस तरह Beacon House And Educators and Newlands, you know, then you got three tears. जो कि उन्होंने essentially middle upper and up, middle upper middle and upper को target किया. Can you do the same for let's say, एक आपने lower middle निकाली है और lower middle के आपने tiers बनाकर, you know, like middle and lower lower middle and so on. जिसमें आपने कहा कि ठीक है sure like the there is a there is a group of people इनका buy in होगा ना कि इसका buy in है यह paint नहीं कर सकता, यह branding नहीं कर सकता तो इसके नीचे एक buyer plaque भी काफ़ी है. लेकिन इसका एक upgraded version है जिसकी fees at least x amount है जिसके है और उसको मैं eventually जाकर कहूंगा कि यार listen if you want to be part of my network, you have to ensure that this this this this this this is a given. And, you know, we'll help you outreach and so आपको, you know, we'll help you pull. And so when people come in and see कि यार क्या मेरे ad के geolocation पर app के through नज़र आ रहा तो you're able to see कि चाहे यह school है, यह steer में है, यह steer में है, and then parents can make that conscious decision as well. You think you're gonna eventually would want to evolve into a space where तालिमाबाद becomes the primary brand? Cambridge, in a way, has become their primary brand, and a lot of schools are doing Cambridge.

Do you think you can become that particular brand? So I think in a lot of cases यह already होना शुरू है कि हमारे बहुत school इसलिए तालीमाबाद network का कैसा बने because उनको आकर parents कहते थे कि आप इस्तेमाल करें, तालीमाबाद इस्तेमाल करें, आपके school में तालीमाबाद है कि नहीं है. And the content was getting. ये लोग जाकर अब इनको बोलना शुरू हो गए कि, you know, आप तालीमत इस्तेमाल करते हैं, almost becoming a certification of sorts. Do you have this service at your school? I don't think becoming a brand though what we've learned is I think it has, for this segment of the market, has less to do with the visuals of it. More of like the brand lives through its actions. And I think for us at this point I think what matters the most is कि जितने भी हमारे school हैं उनमें इस technology का हम अपने schools को rate करते हैं. Right. मेरा कोई gold standard है और कोई silver standard है और कोई bronze tier है, right? और वो they are determined by their implementation of those learning standards not by, you know, Pakistan में एक तो यह बहुत होता है playground इसका कितना बड़ा है, वो sure is important लेकिन इसकी building इमारत डेढ़ के नाल की है कि नहीं है, इसकी अपनी property, guaranteed property है. That decides the kind of school that you could go to. Right. But what we are saying is it will be rated by how well they are doing, how well the kids are doing in that school. And so, उसके मुताबिक tearing बना रहे हैं. And and you are getting the data for the kids as well, assessments का and so Yeah yeah yeah. Percent question सही करें? कितने percent question गलत करें? Immense immense you know tons of data. Right. That is being processed to see you know कि And the teacher is putting the data of all of the kids? नहीं, for example teacher तो अपना जब वह पढ़ारी होती है तो वह metadata capture हो रहा होता something is off over here. Right. और फिर इन schoolओं के, सब schoolओं के standardized test होते रहते हैं. तो आपको quarter में तो पता चल ही जाता है कि things are not going right. The kids are really struggling. उसका data administrate administration जो school की है वह enter करके हमें send करती है. अच्छा. So at least एक certain time के ऊपर आपको you know quarter on quarter some level पर आपको आ रहा है data fully. That's three sixty degree पूरा school का data आपके पास आ रहा है. Yeah yeah. To a large extent और फिर वह the brand aggregation begins to happen from there because अभी जो हमारे impact results have come in I mean in terms of the percentage of kids जो कि benchmarks अपने grade की benchmarks meet करें एक तो Pakistan में stunting बहुत common है. In most cases आप चौथी जमात पर जाएंगे ज़्यादातर चौथी जमातें Pakistan में for example अगर learning level असल grade two का होगा, right? तो grade level benchmarks. हमारे schoolओं में साल के तताम पर 84 of the kids are meeting their grade level benchmarks. Pakistan की average जो है, जिन जिलों में for example हम काम कर रहे हैं और जहां हमारे schools हैं, उन जगहों की average is 35%. That then becomes, you know, parents जाकर यह नहीं कहता कि मुझे नीला paint ही नज़र आ रहा है. तो I am not sure if you were तालीबाद school. वह कहता है कि product है, services हैं यह वाली. और दूसरा, franchising as a as a as a business model in Pakistan in education I think it's nearing an end. In terms of खास तोपे there's an incredible amount of frustration in the market about this. We've talked to thousands and thousands of school owners now. Franchising is in most cases franchising was मुझे बीस लाख रुपए दो और यह नाम ले लो. Mhmm. और यह किताबें पढ़ा देना. That is it. Apart from that, I mean, educators did a reasonable job of keeping that quality intact. But for a large part, it was just that name. They got that name. But then you were like, okay, how do I run this school? Yeah, I mean, so that's why I am saying. I mean, I wouldn't say franchising is dying. It's, it's, what I would say is the old model is dying, right? Yeah. So, are reimagining franchising. Yeah. You are saying कि,

और इसकी मैं तश्वीर दूंगा. People who have seen the सेहत काट episode with the way that they were trying to privatize health. वह बड़ा एक बड़ा interesting model है. और उसमें basically यह है कि how do you incentivize all the stakeholders to be able to very rapidly grow infrastructure required to provide this service. So health में भी यह मसला है कि यार आपका DHQs district level के ऊपर exist करते हैं, government hospitals हैं, oversight का मसला है, efficiency जो है वह आपकी private और government में एक problem तो है ना कि With सेहत card वो एक पूरी episode है उन्होंने पूरा बताया किस तरीके से what what it means to really privatize this कि when every individual and every गांव से एक गांव है. और उस गांव के अंदर मैं जाता हूं जाकर कहता हूं कि यार मेरे पास let's say दस हज़ार लोग हैं. और दस हज़ार लोग जो हैं वो उन दस हज़ार लोगों की total economy agrarian है. So the actual hard cash that goes into that गांव is very little. Right? वो actual में ना सारा barter charter कर लेते हैं तुम अपनी गंदा में दे देना तो मैं डाल दे दूंगा तुम्हारा बकरा यह वो इस तरह करके and then छोटी छोटी उनकी दो तीन चार हज़ार की economy चल रही होती है आपस में कुछ वह कर लिया. For in such a place जहां पर दस हज़ार में मैं technically अगर मैं just the number 10,000 can easily warrant a clinic or a small tier hospital. But I wouldn't go in there because the economics does not make any sense to me. अब मैं इसको flip करता हूं. उन्हीं में कुछ लोग हैं जो कि loan shown ले लूकर जाएंगे और जाकर या loan लेकर किया जाएंगे, वह जाएंगे district headquarter में. District headquarter में वो government के ख़र्चे में इलाज करवाएंगे. Mhmm. और उसमें उनके transportation की cost है. उसमें उनका वो inefficiencies भी हैं. बिचारा बीमार आदमी कैसे transport होकर जाएगा और फिर hospital in itself जो District है उसके ऊपर एक load आएगा चारों तरफ से. तो model यह बनाया गया कि अरे मुझे दस हज़ार लोग हैं उन दस हज़ार लोगों में से आपने insurance add करती है कि कोई भी बंदा जो है वह technically has money. Is a is a सहायता स्थिताज when it comes to health. And so suddenly for me as a private investor the game changes. Mhmm. Because now I understand कि if I go and open a small hospital There's a market. And I adhere to a benchmark जो कि health network ने जाकर identify किया कि यार hospital में ही ये चीज़ें होनी चाहिए. हमारा auditor आएगा, identify करेगा, price point ऐसे ऐसे होनी चाहिए. As long as you are providing that, we are going to allow सेहत card on you. And so suddenly now you have this mushroom growth of private investors putting their capital in the healthcare industry जो कि पहले नहीं हो रहा था. While the government is putting up x y z amounts already जो कि through insurance वह कर रहे हैं. But एक तो यह है कि वह targeted है. आप hospitals में डाल रहे हैं. आपको पता नहीं है कि वह actual patient पर पहुंचा नहीं पहुंचा. यहां पर direct patient के ऊपर पैसा लग रहा है. सिर्फ़ उस patient पर जिसको requirement है. Franchise में जाकर मुझे बीस पच्चीस तीस लाख रुपया करना मेरे पास पैसा नहीं है पहला. दूसरा यह है कि वह सिर्फ़ और सिर्फ़ नाम देने के अलावा वह मुझे कुछ भी नहीं पता रहे. Right? Alternatively now there's a digital intervention that comes in that says listen like at a very low cost हम आपके पास आऐंगे. उसके अंदर हम आपको एक तो onboard करेंगे. Three sixty degree एक school क्योंकि जब आपके पास institutional memory आ गई है तो आपको eventually यह भी पता लग सकता है कि यार एक school खोल लेगा क्या है? Process क्या है? यह यह है literal guideline वन सकती है कि यार step by step यह यह यह processes करो, इस तरह register करो, यह करो, यह करो, यह तो मेरा equipment चाहिए, यह तो मेरी चीज़ें चाहिए. As long as you are able to do all of that, tick tick tick tick tick. You know, you you you are ready to open your school. Now और वह किसकी investment है? वह इस बंदे की investment है. Private sector is now investing into the school. Then you have that access to those students. You have that access to the parents. Like I said, like when it becomes an aggregator, it's not just an app where the content is there. I personally think तालियां बाद needs to have a website where they're able to rank schools all over Pakistan. That's that's also beginning to happen now. Now that they have that step by step, I can begin to be sitting and let's say again घोटकी, watching this podcast and the idea should be कि यार ok, But business idea तो है but मुझे तो डेढ़ रुपए कुछ नहीं पता पढ़ाने के बाद. So then digital means के through तालीमाबाद helps me मेरी उंगली पकड़कर मुझे business school owner बनाए और मुझे लेकर चले सारा का सारा and eventually so that becomes the franchise कि मैंने पैसा लगाया, मैंने effort लगाई. इसने मुझे भी train किया as a business owner और इसने मेरी teachers को भी train किया कि वह है और इसने मुझे business की viabilities भी बता दी because because again when you have that data that's when you begin to that's the data Beacon Ounce has. They have the data कि यार मैंने किसी ने शहर में जाना है तो मुझे land की क्या cost है? तो इसकी क्या cost है? Teacherओं की average क्या होगी? Average मुझे क्या है? मुझे कितनी fees रखनी पड़ेगी? वह हर चीज़ आपको आकर बता देते हैं और उससे sustainability भी निकल आती है, उससे वह भी निकल आती है. It's really just about becoming the brain of the education system and using data to solve that problem. Yeah. Do you think you'll eventually

go towards that? That's a, that's a goal. I think Pakistan में one of the things that you'll notice is कि Pakistan के अंदर जो school chains हैं, जो हमारा size the problem है, the biggest ones that we have, वह पंद्रह सौ campuses तक गए होंगे. शायद I think दारिया अरकम for example for the 3,000, 4,000 segment went up to about I think maybe 2,000 campuses. But the size of the problem is immense. Right. You know, there's there's about 200,000 schools by some estimates. More need to come online to serve the growing population. हमारा take यह है कि, ज़्यादातर chains, even franchises, you know, Allied for example, वह हज़ार schoolओं पर जाकर plateau इसलिए कर जाते हैं because operationally you've designed the model in such a way that it it doesn't go beyond that 1,000 model. उससे ज़्यादा आप campuses नहीं बना सकते. ख़ास तौर पर अगर आप company owned and operated हैं for example तो फिर तो आप हज़ार से ऊपर आप operationally इतने bulk होना शुरू रहते हैं कि आप scale नहीं कर पाते. So, our goal is very much to do that but to do so also in a manner in which we don't get stuck at 10,000 schools or 50,000 schools or 60,000 schools. And then the other goal is also कि यह यह market grow करेगी. 2.3 x हर साल grow कर रही है यह. और school edtech के players को market में आना ज़रूरी है. जब तक एक player उसको profitable तरीके से नहीं कर रही Franchising मतलब पहली franchise हेरा school थी जमाते इस्लामीयों ने शुरू की थी in the early nineties. उसके बाद it it bloomed, you know. हर किसी ने अपनी franchise खोल ली थी. छोटी छोटी franchises भी हैं जो दो दो तीन तीन campuses वाली भी हैं. So like people need to see school ed tech and this new way of helping others set up schools is a very viable way of doing business. तो ना सिर्फ आप जवान लोगों को encourage करें जो unemployed ने कहा ये एक vibe you can also become a teacher by training and getting this education or you could become a school owner. Yeah. But you you drive into that stream और दूसरे end पर you are encouraging other companies also to step into the school at tech. Right. यह जो primary years के लिए school at tech it's such a vast open field we don't think it's know, एक player एक player can't do it all. And so we want to get that, become that aggregator but do so in a way that encourages the rest of the ecosystem to also step into this. Makes sense, makes sense. I'm

going to wrap this up probably at the one hour twenty five minute mark. Busy थोड़ी on and off हुई चीज़. I'm not exactly sure क्या number है. But, मैं मैंने बहुत ज़्यादा critical सवाला सोचे हुए थे. आपसे पुछा भी था. But I feel like कि पता है आप conventional edtech से ज़्यादा हटकर आप थोड़ा ज़्यादा. You you come up somewhere in the middle. And that's a new model for me, जो मैंने मुझे सीखने का भी मेरा. And so I'm not gonna go towards conventional कि यार, just a mobile experience where you can just sort of digitally do everything. This is built around the physical experience and the and sort of the marriage between digital and physical. It's hybrid. Hybrid, absolutely. हां, सवाल मेरा basically यह था कि have you gotten funding funding like PCT, any form of, investor

or institutional funding as yet? I mean, in terms of institutional funding, there are foundations and funds that support some of the most catalytic companies around the globe. Social impact, they've scaled a lot of work. And so we've been backed by some of those companies. Some of those have also been equity investments. तालीमा has raised and spent down about $22,500,000 so far. Our next year, for example, we've already raised, close to a million dollars, for next year. Most of are grants. Most of them are grants because one thing अभी आप इसके बारे में बात कर भी रहे थे. You know, everybody keeps asking Pakistan में BYJU'S या you know, higher grade ZTech क्यों नहीं आया? क्योंकि वह तो एक low hanging fruit है. हां. मसला यह कि Pakistan में आपको पता है कि जो बच्चे शुरू करते हैं 83% जो हैं वह उस उस जमात पर पहुंचने से पहले ही they have gone from the system. They have either rejected or you know वह drop out हो चुके हुए होते हैं. यह जो size of the market है वह एक एक डेढ़ billion बच्चा है. एक तो यह में billion dollar opportunity है ही नहीं. वह size of the market उतना बड़ा हुआ ही नहीं है. दूसरी तरफ़ आपके पास यह पूरी market segment है जिसको state पर ही अभी cater नहीं कर चुकी लेकिन खास तौर पर institutional venture capital अभी नहीं support करेगा. It's too early for that kind of model और अगर जब तक हमने इस पूरा support किया तो यह segment of the market इसमें billion dollar companies नहीं बनेंगी. Right. And so, what we feel at तालीमें बादेश के, sure, वह दिन आएगा Pakistan में by but not right now because आपका वह segment बड़ा करने की ज़रूरत है और वह segment बड़ा करने के लिए आपको traditional for example बच्चे को आठवीं जमात तक पहुंचना चाहिए और उसको you know reasonable learning outcomes achieve करने चाहिए. Once we do that then it's I mean we also we have developed content for, you know, higher grades as well and we wait for that opportunity. But जब तक यह पक्षा में मसला नहीं fix होगा ना तो वह उस end पर भी नहीं fix कर सकते. Which is why we don't believe the there is, हमें बहुत से लोगों ने कहा आप content अच्छा बनाते हैं. बारहवीं के लिए बनाएं, test prep के लिए बनाएं और हम उनको बताते रहे I mean that's typically you know India में भी test prep coaching eleven twelve grades यह सब ज़्यादा hit हुआ था सबसे बिल्कुल ऐसा ही है. और उस model के ऊपर हम उनको यह

वही नहीं है. But that's why I also feel like there's an incredible opportunity here because I'm not necessarily talking about, uh-uh, you know, big capital, like, airlift वाला capital I. But, probably my... Knowing you and I've known you for well over a decade now. I've known you since high school, when we met as well. Like, high school में तो मुझे याद है हरुन याद सीन. But जो proper proper हमारी meeting हुई थी, पांच छह, चार पांच साल तो उसको भी हो गए. तालिमा बात करो, वह सारा का सारा. And I've seen your evolution. I think right about now is the time particularly with what you're doing with the schools, with the apps, with with your with the broadcast. You were really exploring and you've been exploring and you you've had a North Star but you've really kept yourself there as this agile company that was really problem solving in a way. Okay. Like, hit me with something, and I'll analyze it, and I'll find a solution. And then, you know, I'll optimize it, and I'll optimize it. And through that, you pivoted here and there as well. But by and large, the the core DNA has remained the same. But now I feel like you have something very solid Yep. That you can and and there is confidence in that as well. Yep. I feel like what's missing right now is this and and this is something जो कि मैंने बहुत ज़्यादा when I've spoken to people in इस्लाहाबाद. I think बड़ा यह problem है अलमिया ए इस्लाहाबादी different between कराची and इस्लाहाबाद for me is कराची वाला धंधा करना जानता है. तो उसको इससे ग़र्ज़ी नहीं है impact और no impact वह धंधा कर लेगा. ठीक है? असराहाबाद वाला ना सुबह से लेकर रात तक का सीधे पड़ेगा impact के और उसको धंधा डेढ़ों पेका नहीं करना आएगा. Right? And so it's a mentality of how the city develops. It's a lot of development sector capital. It's a lot of coffee tables के ऊपर, know, you're just always talking about impact, impact, impact. And so it sort of feels dirty. I remember when I used to go to NICs and every startup and NIC is, like, meant for it's an incubation center. Hardcore business. हां hardcore business built around an entire thing जो कि जिसमें है यह कि यार startup बनाओ, seed लो, पैसा double, quad, triple करो, यह करो, वह करो. And you go to N I C लाहौल, go to N I C कराची, you go to NESH IO in कराची and you you hear people talking about how am I going to scale and how am I going to make money for myself and for the investors. And इस्तामाबाद में you go there and you like, you know, we are trying to solve this problem. And you tell them, how do you make money? And they'd be like, oh, you don't have dirty बात कर दिए पैसे की. You know, like, we're saving the world. Why can't you? The problem is you can't saving the world in an unsustainable way does nothing for anyone. And so what I fear here is that because I've seen way too many players doing remarkable work just really hitting that जब वह finally उनका fuel वाला part आता ना कि ok, now I'm ready to grow like a giant And that requires a a a very strong, क्या कहलाती है? Mentorship from the right people as well. Grants and the folks who who who who work around grants generally are not the right mentors because they're telling you they're pivoting you consistently towards problem solve solving. And so you'll become an academic your entire life, and you constantly solve problems here and there, and you hop on to the new next problem. The VC will hold you accountable and will tell you through their own institutional memory कि listen, like, okay. You've done this. Now stop for a bit. Stop developing. Start implementing. Scale this up. You know, you're at 150. Let's take it to 1,500. Let's take it to 2,500. Let's see what happens when you've grown and then stop and begin to solve that problem. Yeah. So so so my question probably to you is, what has been the impediment in you going to an actual, VC. VC जो कि equity ले और equity लेकर फिर आपको scale कराए. Because I know for a fact that New Apia has gotten money. I know for a fact that KP has gotten money. I know for a fact that there is definitive interest because of India in the market. Maybe not the to the tune of India कि $100,000,000 की बात हो रही है but they they know कि यह eventually market mature होगी and so there are players who are looking to get early on in the market and they're like कि यार ठीक है एक certain amount for a lot of other things. You don't price yourself too high. You price yourself एक certain amount. But it's a lot of other things जो आपको साथ मिल रही होती हैं. That I feel like would be missing otherwise.

Yeah, I think, I think the first thing we need to do is to I think rethink also. VC capital is great. I think you go to it not because you are, you know In desperate need of money. In desperate need of money and want to survive but you go to it when you want to, you know, lift off. Yeah. एक तो पहले यह, I think. And we've seen plenty of models. BYJU'S in India is, I don't know if you've read more recently about the lawsuits, the blackmailing of parents, all of the dirty stuff that comes with wanting to grow too fast. Right. And also, you know, wanting to desperately monetize this. So, I'm, we don't shy away from monetizing it. All of these schools, you know, if तालीमाबाद was to evaporate at 50,000 schools, suddenly these guys would still still make money. तालीमाबाद का core fundamental belief यह है कि हम तब तक नहीं crack कर सकते unless somebody gets rich. Right. For us, these guys getting rich, the schools getting rich is a the entrepreneur getting rich is a first priority. Now, I think that VC financing is also incredibly incredibly short sighted. आपने अभी recent pop up the system and reset of the system अपनी आंखों से देखा है and I think एक medium fundamental flaw यह है कि इस वक्त obsession है कि India में क्या हुआ था वह Pakistan में हो और मैंने उसका आपको reasons बताए कि वह Pakistan में क्यों replicate नहीं हो सकता? अच्छा, there is also a company in India by the way that did exactly what तालियुमार did. For ten years while the rest of India was obsessed with funding you know test prep, ed techs. वह नौ साल ना वह बनाते रहे. School school ed tech for primary schools, very similar to तालीमाबाद. और फिर अब यह जो सारे giants fall करना शुरू है Indian ed tech में. Of course, we see money when it stops being pumped, the real economics of the model comes through. You know, some of the best companies have been built when, you know, they've achieved sustainability on their own without VC financing. You don't need VC financing to achieve sustainability. And this company is now the latest unicorn in India. It's a billion dollar company. नौ साल के बाद उनको VC, VCs finally looked that way. अच्छा. अब यहां पर जो VC investment हुआ है, वह यह नहीं देखते कि India में अब वह test prep वाला crack कर रहा है castle और अब finally वह जो school ed tech है, India के इस ecosystem में उसमें early investments अब आना शुरू हो रही हैं. Right. So, I think for for the for the growth of तालीमा I think one of the things that we see is it is a right kind of capital. You know, अब अब grant capital एक तरफ है, PC capital एक तरफ है. इनके beach में impact capital भी है. वह equity लेंगे, you know, वह आपको profitability push करेंगे, बहुत heavily push करेंगे. But यह नहीं है कि कल tuition center खोल लो यार. You know, BYJU'S start as an EdTech app और अब वह tuition center खोल रहा है, physical tuition center in हां हां. You know, आपको वह उस तरफ़ नहीं push करेगा. So, we definitely have impact capital, more and more of it. But I think insofar as we have done, you know, हमने जब यह तालीमा दल model initially VCs को pitch किया था. उन्होंने कहा था यह, यह तो, यह तो brick and mortar है, you know. यह तो नहीं काम करेगा. हां. अब India में होना शुरू हुआ है तो अब हर कोई कहते हैं, हां, इस model में कुछ हो सकता है. So I think it's it's also about the right kind of capital at the right stage. We're also waiting. I mean, won't buy the I'm not I'm not necessary. मैंने यह नहीं बोला कि आपने ग़लती की पहले नहीं जाकर. यह तो मैं ऐसे बिल्कुल agree करूंगा कि

VC would have completely, you know, आपको naked करके एक नई चीज़ बनाकर नए कपड़े पहना देता है और वह would have been, would have ruined you. And more often than not all of these, all of these companies trying to get VC funding and the companies who have gotten VC funding मेरा उनके साथ एकतलाफ ही यह है कि it's it's it's all accounting no real work. You know like it's just ok ठीक है इतनी बड़ी market size यह है और यह है और यह है यह है और हम इसको ले आऐंगे और उसको ले आऐंगे but

That's validity. Right? फिर हम बात करेंगे. So you're gonna go to them eventually, but the idea is to really just have your model so strong कि you don't have to bargain to work. एक तो, एक तो at that point, we don't need to raise capital to survive. That's the first thing. Right. The second part is that, I don't think that work should stop just because the headwinds of where VCs are looking to invest money in is pointing in a different direction. I think the North Star of a company should stay and I think at that point, you know, you don't need to change the company to be able to get VC capital. But, you know, eventually India में वह हवाई बदली और VC Capital, you know, एक point पर grocery delivery positive हुआ था. अब हर कोई grocery delivery के ऊपर से हाथों टाके बैठा हुआ है. हां. Right? And so, idea is that, you know, at some point the winds blow over there. But up till that point, the founders' mission is to,

a, make sure that it's moving sustainably in the right direction. But at 1,000 schools, you know, we have the liberty to say, this injection is needed to throw this out of the ballpark. Right. Not to To basically say कि यार I can go from a thousand to 10,000 but I don't if I don't if I'm unable to go to 10,000, my thousand doesn't collapse basically. Right? Like, वह अभी वही वाली बात है कि आपके fundamentals आपका structure बनी है. आदि इतनी अच्छी नहीं बनी हुई तो आप उसको कैसे जाकर एकदम से scale में निकल जाओ और पूरी चीज़ ही collapse कर जाए. ठीक है, Harun we're at the I don't know whatever mark but we'd like to wrap this up now and, first of all I mean always always a pleasure talking to you. It's an incredible mind. Couple of things I would not discussed because Harun Joey was down towards. The queen of England passed away recently, but I know that you actually met her and and and you got an award from her as well. थोड़ा सागर you can tell talk talk to me about that. She was selecting,

young leaders from around the globe who were thinking about how to solve, sticky problems that weren't being solved through traditional approaches. Right. And we just call her got a call from Buckingham Palace, they said, they said, can you be here? We said, sure. Yeah. And then, I mean, it was a great meeting. I think she has incredible sense of humor. She had incredible sense humor. Sense of humor.

Is that about this? And then you're also an Acumen fellow. What what's that all about? Yep. So Acumen,

did a fellowship in Pakistan, and I think they were doing this at a point when they were, business leaders in different fields emerging. Sehat Kahani, for example, we I I met Sara through the Ackmin fellowship. A whole lot of people working in different sectors in Pakistan. We share our network through Acumen. It was a year long fellowship. I think so, that was a very rigorous course on some of the business fundamentals, how to, you know, be able to fundraise, to keep things going because I think we operate in a segment of the market जहां पर traditional capital थोड़ी देर बाद आता है. Right. And, you know, how do you sort of get traditional capital but how do you keep moving till that point? I think that was a great experience.

Sir, I'm going to ask you a question generally. Ask all of my guests and Yeah. And I know for a fact कि America गए, वह चौड़गढ़ आ गए, फिर आप Qatar गए, फिर आप फिर America गए. You probably traveled elsewhere as well. You would be, what, twenty thirty years old? Yep. Right? And you're 30 years old now. You've seen Pakistan very closely, more than many people because of your travels as well. And, you've seen you've seen it not just keep खूबसूरत पहाड़ियां but you've seen the DNA, the people, the honest to what पाकिस्तानी जो कि, you know, मेहनत कर रहा है और मेहनत करके अपना एक honest living निकाल रहा है. You're working for a cause that is entirely built for the future of this country. कोई outcome आपको कल नहीं नज़र आएगा, कोई outcome आपको एक साल बाद ही नहीं नज़र आएगा. वह outcome नज़र आएगा आज से तीस साल बाद कि Pakistan के एक एक एक exploding youth population क्या बिल्कुल वह वह एक उस time के school में heroine के लिए needles के साथ पढ़ी होगी या वह एक productive form of society की तरफ़ जाएगी. इसको मद्देना जा रखते हुए, knowing what you know now, seeing what you've seen, you know, throughout your your life and and most recently, how do you see Pakistan of twenty fifty, twenty eight years from now? What is the what is the I I would like to ask it in two different tangents. What is the dream and जो कि आप समझ लें best case scenario and what is the more practical mid case scenario? बुरा case तो हम सुबह शाम

what's gonna happen? Do you want to start with the best or the? Let's start with the best. So, best case scenario I think that Pakistan has a has a great chance of becoming economically one of the powerhouses of the region. Because it's such a huge young population. So if you imagine 2015 and everything has gone well, not only have we managed to educate most of our population, but it's an incredibly resilient population who's seen the thick end of things. और वह जानते हैं कि उन्होंने जुगाड़ कैसे लगाना है. वह जानते हैं कि उन्होंने दुनिया में अपनी जगह कैसे बनानी है. उनको internet का access है, उनके पास दुनिया का access है. And they are making a name for themselves in all kinds of fields. I think in 2050 Pakistan will be exporting education, not being known as one of the countries जहां पर, you know, हम गंदुम नहीं export करेंगे और हम cotton export करेंगे और mangoes नहीं export करेंगे, हम ताली में export करेंगे because Pakistan के teachers और students are some of the most brilliant. I've taught in all kinds of places But some of the most brilliant I've come across. तो दो हज़ार पचास का जो dream Pakistan है, उसके बच्चे और उसके teachers, उसकी पढ़ाई पूरी दुनिया में मानी जानी जाती है और फिर उसके graduates पूरी दुनिया में, you know, they are at the top of their fields. मरीख़ पर जो पहला बंदा गया है वह भी पाकिस्तानी है. Right. जो अगली बबा अगर कोई आई है उसकी vaccine भी पाकिस्तानी And में then so what's the more practical mid year approach? I think at the very least I I do think कि Pakistan ने अपना out of school children problem खत्म कर लिया होगा. ठीक है. Pakistan will have most children in school. Pakistan ने learning outcomes पर बेदहाशा improvement कर ली होगी. हमारी एक बहुत बड़ी youth bulge आ के massively disappoint भी हो गई होगी into what the system has handed over हम to खुद देखते हैं जिन बच्चों को हमने पढ़ाया था जो बारहवीं cross कर रहे हैं या graduate हो रहे हैं और work force में आ रहे हैं या college जाकर graduate हो रहे हैं अब निकल रहे हैं, they are incredibly dissolutioned because of what they have been handed over. And I think दो हज़ार पचास से पहले इस आबादी ने एक massive किस्म का outbreak कर लिया होगा. And what I mean by that is that they will have, they will have gathered in number, they will, there will be too many of them and they will be deeply disappointed with what they've seen. And I think that will lead to a cataclysmic reset. Maybe around twenty, thirty five, or 40. And I think that the end ending decade before that mark, I think is the one in which we'll see some real progress on education, some real progress on employment. But I think these people will firmly come into the driving seat because I think they understand already that they've been kept at the back seat for far too long. And at that point, not being in the front seat will simply be a matter of survival, not an option. हम हम ख़ुद देखकर अब इन लोगों को अपने सपने के साथ काम करते हैं and they're at the breaking point, these young people. Wonder or the other, some something or some issues gonna light them up. Very interesting. Probably the most insightful,

comment I've had on this show and if if if you can understand it. I'm not gonna go into details but आपने बड़े interesting तरीके से दो चीज़ों को link किया है. एक एक human psyche है जो कि आपकी life में certain age के हिसाब से change होती है और और और और आपने उसकी age के जिस तरह से किया है ना कि जिस age पर वह पहुंचे होंगे और वह disillusion हो रहे होंगे वह generally एक इंसान वैसे भी होता है. But उसका जो impact है potential जो outcome है वह आपने कहा ना वह cataclysmic change वह दोनों तरफ जा सकता है. वह बहुत अच्छे और बहुत scary तरह भी जा सकता है. But it's only a matter of you know वह देखना पड़ेगा कि exactly किस तरह से जाता unfortunately more often than not we we we are continuously choosing to repeat the same mistakes over and over again not realizing that the public is not the same public of of of yesterday and and and this is a much more Informed. Informed which which is a great thing but also it can be hugely damaging if not provided the right opportunities. But हरुण, thank you so much for this. Thank you so much for the for taking the time out, for doing all of what you do. I think one of the things that I'd like to say is thank you so much for your service, crazy nut job had to sort of take the lead and and begin to say कि यार नहीं listen, I'm this is what I'm gonna focus on. And I I I really want to see the faces of people, inshallah, when you're gonna be a billion dollar company. When when when the Harun who's a who's a snowflake tree hugger trying to save the world without thinking about money becomes a millionaire. I would like to see the the faces of of of people, कि यार education में भी पैसा बनाया जा सकता था, education में भी impact लाया जा सकता था. So, looking forward to that that day. Rupee to as much as you'd like. It's the thought that counts. But anyways, this was सैयद मुज़ामिला संजयी. You were watching thought behind things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.