The slow brand: how Manto was built without a plan

सामने सामने वज़रात welcome back to another episode of thought behind. Thanks आज हमारे साथ मौजूद एक बहुत ही खास मेहमान जिनको बड़े अरसे से पूरी कौम बड़े सारे लोग मुझे कह रहे थे कि मुज़मिल भाई आपको तो कहा करते थे कि यह आपके बड़े कोई बचपन के गिराई हैं आप तो बड़ा मौका आ ही गया कि वह हमारी podcast पर आ गए. आज हमारे साथ मौजूद हैं सलमान पारेख. सलमान मसूद पारेख? Yes. मसूद पारेख. सलमान मसूद पारेख who is the founder and CEO of मंटो previously he started the platform called मानसा studios और अब Pakistan का जाना माना Pakistan's fastest growing and I think one of the you know best most freshest thing in fashion that we've seen recent times के अंदर मंटो जो कि ना सिर्फ पूरे Pakistan में पहना जा रहा है बल्कि पूरी दुनिया में बहुत जगह वहां पर जा रहा है Times Square New York पर हमने देखा कि मंटो के कपड़े जो हैं वह नज़र आ रहे हैं White House में मंटो के कपड़े जा रहे तो माशिला से you know बड़ा ज़बरदस्त काम करें putting Pakistan on the map sir thank you so much for being part of this show. नहीं thank you so much and I think it's been a while but we are here at the right time. चलिए I am glad सर्वान भाई. Going to start the conversation with just trying to understand a little bit about where were you born and early life आपने कहां पर गुज़ारी?

मैं कराची शहर के अंदर पैदा हुआ और सारी ज़िंदगी मैंने कराची शहर के अंदर गुज़ारी up until a certain point. तो एक typical life जो कराची के अंदर रहती थी जिसके अंदर आपने गली के अंदर cricket खेलना है और school से मेरी वापस थी कि कम थी क्योंकि मैं mother से वाली side पर था तो वह culture ऐसा होता सुबह से शाम तक मैंने mother से में होना था. अच्छा आप start से mother से में थे या after a few classes आप थे? School that I recall and I remember the bits and pieces that I remember of school is कि I have always been known to sleep in the classes and school. तो I remember कि बहुत KG वाले time के ऊपर I would be in my class, I would go and sleep and break time I would wake up and I would not even go to the canteen myself but rather give those 10 rupees, दस रुपए pocket money होती दस रुपए देते थे miss को के miss please एक cold drink और तीन रुपए की कोई chips आती थी तो सात रुपए cold drink तीन रुपए की chips तो दस रुपए इस तरीके से मुक जाते थे. So that's the only memory I have of school before मद्रसा और कौन सी class में आप मद्रसे में flip करके गए थे मद्रसे में? I can't recall I अच्छा तो the earliest memories that I have are from the मद्रसा और कितना रासा मद्रसे में नए? So I had two phases in मद्रसा one was four years and the other one was three years and the purpose for going to the मद्रसा was कि मेरे वालदेन के एक बहुत बड़ी ख्वाहिश्ति के मैं कुरान हिवस करूं और उन्होंने बहुत ज़्यादा कोशिश की. मैंने भी कुछ हद तक कोशिश की लेकिन I am sure कि कुछ हद तक कमी रह गई थी and unfortunately I could not do it और it was a very hard moment because पहले चार साल गुजरे उन चार साल के अंदर कुछ आगे बहुत ज़्यादा बेहतरीन किस्म की कहानी नहीं भर रही थी. तो teachers ने comment किया कि मद्रसा की एक school part थी this मद्रसा school was called Islamic Institute for Education. So it had both silos and scenarios. तो फिर मैं उसकी school side में move हुआ जहां पर मैंने छह छह महीने के अंदर दो तीन classes की and then I came back to give it another try. But another three years passed and there was no hope. I could, I would forget more than I would remember. Right. So my memory in that particular sense was not the strongest. So, unfortunately

at that particular point I could not finish it. I really hope that someday I can still go and do that again. Interesting. मद्रास्य का मुझे थोड़ा सा बताया because I haven't had a guest who I believe I may be wrong. You can fact check me on this, but I

Islamic studies ही पढ़ाई जा रही है? So I have very fond memories and some difficult ones from my early days in मद्रसाह. It's very interesting because no one has ever had this conversation with me but when I recall when we talk about education as well so education then is divided into two realms एक तो जब हमारी normal school के अंदर भी एक आपकी skill set और आपकी knowledge building वाली चीज़ हो रही होती है तो obviously we would not be sitting down and reading biology books or doing mathematics in that sense जब हम purely मज़र्द society के अंदर थे. But then there was another form of education that was based on के character building और इखलाकियात क्या होते है, दूसरों के हुकू क्या होते है, so there was a lot of that sort of education and then there was a lot of disciplinary education which probably I was not the best at. I was sleeping a lot of the times in मद्रसा in fact even to this day if I meet someone from those times they if they can't recall me I am like I am the guy that used to sleep and they would instantly recall. It's stupid but funny story के मैं जब मद्रसु में होता है अगर आप कहीं notice करें कि वो आपको हिल हिल के पढ़ना होता है. वो मुझ जैसे बच्चों के वजह से ये rule invent हुआ. Basically because that keeps you energized. What I would do is कि मैं पहले take लगा के कुरान करते हुए सो जाता था. तो उठाते फिर बजू करके आता and then वो मुझे कहते हैं कि आप एक काम करें take लगाए बगैर बैठे हैं. तुम्हें take लगाए बगैर बैठा वैसे भी सो जाता था. फिर मुझे कहता है मैं हिलते हिलते सो जाता था so they would make me stand up and you would not believe that I would sleep standing up. Did you get it checked? And up until the point of my university first year I would sleep in my classes and that became a part of my identity, my personality. People would be worried if I would not sleep in those classes in schools. But surprisingly, during this time of मद्रसा which is very inspected कि it's because of my time in मद्रसा I learnt and I started having an ambition of acting.

अच्छा.

Because. During that? वहां पर एक annual program होता था. So I got an opportunity to participate and when I participated in that I was not excelling at my education that wise. लेकिन when I did this acting sort of gig, I loved it and it was such a beautiful feeling and everybody that was there who could not expect anything from me. It was finally like oh आपने मतलब एक finally अगर दस बुराइयों के बाद एक तारीफ मिलने लगी तो इस चीज़ को भी मिलने लगी and as a child obviously sometimes it's your calling but sometimes it's also the appreciation that you get for a particular thing in those early days of your childhood आप उसको हकीकत समझ लेते हैं. तो जब आप हकीकत समझ लेते हैं आप उसके बारे में और सोचते हैं and then you start thinking more and more about it and it's such a self fulfilling prophecy कि because आप इतना उसके बारे में सोचते हैं then that becomes somewhat your passion, that becomes your goal and I eventually then wanted to become an actor. Interesting. And the other side of this was because I was not very good at all the other things तो कभी मार पिटाई से बचने के लिए और दूसरी चीज़ों बच से बचने के लिए acting जो है करना शुरू हो गई. I only last month got to meet teacher from that time तो उन्होंने बोला तुम्हें याद है तुम कहते थे कि जब जल्दी घर जाना होता तो कहते थे कि सांस लेता हूं तो नाक में दर्द हो रहा है, सोता देख रहा हूं तो आंखों में दर्द हो रहा है मुझे घर भेजते हैं. So yes there were a lot of. अदाखारी जाए. Times that have built me हुआ है but another important factor that was in मद्रसाह क्योंकि schools के अंदर unfortunately in a place like Pakistan not everybody goes to the same school. A different class goes to a different school but in मद्रसा I had friends that would come from the finest and most privileged families and my other best friend के जो वालित साहब थे उनकी दूध की दुकान थी. दूसरा जो मेरा बहुत करीबी दोस्त था उनके वालित साहब रक्षा चलाते थे. So the humility that you get, the understanding of people that you get is on a different level and जब आप बच्चे होते हैं तो वैसे ही आपकी जो दोस्तियां और relationships networks are मतलब के लिए नहीं होती हैं. वह इसलिए होती हैं कि यार आप मुझसे बात कर रहे हो, मैं आपसे बात कर रहा हूं, मुझे अच्छा लग रहा है. Vibes match कर रही हैं तो ok. I like you and then you become a friend. So, was an incredible part of being in a मदुरसा because आप हर किसी के तरीके से आप merge कर रहे हैं. So, yes that I am extremely grateful that I got to go there. Also because I got to experience मद्रासा but also because I dodged the worst parts of school that kill sometimes the creativity, the art, So the when I came to the school side, I had not learnt any basics. I did not learn any rules. So when you don't know the rules, ignorance is a bliss. You can definitely break them. Interesting and कौन सी जमात में फिर आपने school की तरफ shift किया? तो मैंने school shift किया eighth class के अंदर and I remember. कौन से school में गए? Central model high school, incredible school, my sister went there but it was too strict and not suitable for me for a kid that has been in and out of the system. Another very interesting story but I went there in eighth class but I failed. And again, I could not just keep up with the pace, I can still remember the moment क्योंकि मैं मद्रसे की school में जब गया था तो मेरा tire होता था हमेशा शिलवार कमी and a टोपी. So I remember the excitement that I had for the first day, so first day of my school was in eighth grade, Right? Wow. So, मेरे मैं 7th Floor पर रहता था, 3rd Floor पर मेरा एक दोस्त रहता था मोहिस. तो I went to him and I was like, यार मुझे tie बांधनी है. I don't know how to do it. So he tired it for me और उसने कहा बस सुआं को पहनना और इसको हल्का सा यूं कर देना and you are set to go. So I dressed up and I was sitting in the class and I was in the second last bench and it's like a vivid memory कि मैं बैठा हुआ हूँ और आगे लोग बैठे हैं और सब अंग्रेज़ी में बात कर रहे हैं because मद्रेज़ी वाली side के अंदर there was a lot of focus on उर्दू and arabic But यहां पर अंग्रेज़ी के अंदर बात कर रहे हैं, कुछ समझ आ रही है, कुछ नहीं आ रही है and I am just fascinated the whole first day. But then the kids- Not intimidated.

Not intimidated. A lot of kids would be intimidated. Be fascinated.

Mother से वाला बच्चा इतनी जल्दी intimidate नहीं है. So you have been through all the different scenarios, right? Yes. Confidence के marks पूरे थे. तो अब जब वहां पर बैठे but the days after that obviously were very difficult in terms के I would not be अब वह उसके अंदर see नहीं होता था कि आपने teacher पढ़ा दिया तब आपने copy fill करनी है और तीन महीने बाद, छह महीने बाद मेरी कोई copy बनी हुई नहीं होती थी and I did not have the practice of writing and unfortunately although the schools that are there are great but they are very standardized or any school system is very standardized for any, it's made for the masses. It's not the time for masses, it's the time for personalization and each person learns differently even if whether they have gone to amadhrissa or not. So, could not just keep up with the learning and that shaked up my own self confidence in education but it built my confidence in other things because again I had learnt one thing in मद्रासा that helped me get my way out. Right, फंकारी. Acting. Right. So I would again sleep and then whenever जो बच्चा और सोएगा तो उसको class से भाई दे. कोई problem है. मैं सोऊंगा तो teacher बोली कि बेचारा मासू हूं मैं इसको सोने दे. तो वह तमाम situation चल रही थी. But I still remember कि उर्दू की एक teacher थी और बहुत आपके हमेशा school के अंदर एक teacher होती हैं जो आपको बहुत डर लगता है और थोड़ा सा dangerous type वायब आती है और situation ऐसी थी कि class में जाने से पहले उनका एक glass room आता था सीढ़ियों से जैसे चेहरे थे उनका glass room आता है. So uh-uh मुझे उन्होंने Friday को कहा कि भाई वाली किताब कहां है? वह तो अब Sunday रात हो गया मैंने बोला क्या करूं तो सबसे पहले मैंने एक इसका plan किया है की कल मैंने school ही नहीं जाना उसके लिए मैंने घर पर फंगारी करनी है. तो घर पर उस वक्त मेरे पास एक hack था की I would touch my nose a little bit and it would start bleeding. Right. तो plan is set the night before, दो तीन बजे तक जा गया हुआ हूँ, नींद आ रही है बहुत ज़्यादा. तो नींद नहीं आ रही sorry और I know कि कल जाना ही नहीं है school. तो जब सुबह को उठा तो I went to the washroom, hit myself on the face and then bleeding हुई तो मैं अम्मी के पास गया और अम्मी को मैंने कहा कि जो है ऐसी तबीयत खराब है अम्मी ने बोला ठीक है मेरा बेटा तबीयत नहीं खराब है आप घर पे रहें. अच्छा वो वह safely पहुंच जाता है और वह लेकर आ जाता है. अब जब हमारा gallery के अंदर गई है तो वह गाड़ी यूं जा रही है. And then the car is coming back right like that और मैं दस पंद्रह minute ज़्यादा इतने इतने ही शौक होती दस minute के अंदर आए. It's not gonna accept, मैं बोला नहीं you have to go regardless अब जो है मैं school पहुंचाऊ late हो गया तो assembly वगैरह वो तमाम मसले खत्म हो गए now it's only me walking through the class अब, while I am walking to the class, as soon as I walk up the stairs, वह glass room में वह teacher बैठी हुई है जिन्होंने monday को मुझसे copy मांग ली थी. तो वह मुझे देखती है and she's like, you. And those five seconds in the journey to that room, I had to do something to save myself. Because as a child, that's the most dangerous situation that you could find. अब हम कहते क्या हो जाएगा? क्या कर लेगा? और आजकल के बच्चे तो वैसे ही scam बहुत ज़्यादा है. तो by the time I reached her staff room मैं मुझे एक artificially engineered unfortunately at that time एक asthma attack आता है. They would not let me go to the bathroom. They would say कि नहीं नहीं आपकी तबीयत ठीक नहीं है and पानी मार रहे हैं मुझे मेरे चेहरे पर. Are you ok? Are you gonna be fine? तो principal ने कहा इनके घर पर call करें. अब मेरे घर पर call गई.

मेरी बालदा को call गई. बालदाब को कहा कि आपके बेटे की तबीयत ख़राब हो रही है. आप इस जल्दी आएं और इसको अस्पताल लेकर जाएं. अगर आपने passive income के बारे में परेशान है ख़ासकर आजकल की economy में जहां पर already cash continuously burn हो रहा है और inflation हमें मार रही है तो I'm proud announce that this video is in partnership with समाया Financials. They are offering two very very cool trainings. Capital market fundamentals जिसमें Upstox और mutual funds में invest करना सीखेंगे और understand करेंगे कि आखिर एक company के अंदर क्या ऐसे fundamentals होते हैं जिनको आपने देखा होता है to figure out कि वह एक अच्छी company है to invest in और दूसरी training है technical analysis master class जिसमें आप सीखेंगे कि किस तरीके से हम different tradable assets like commodities, forex, stocks, crypto के अंदर थोड़े से पैसे लगाकर बहुत ज़्यादा पैसे बना सकते हैं. Personally यह training मैंने भी ली है and it's absolutely phenomenal. The link to the trainings are in the description below. Check them out and become financially healthy and now back to the podcast. तो

तो principal ने मेरे सामने उसको बोला आप इसकी अम्मी जो भी बोला आपने इसको सीधा hospital लेकर जा रहा है. तो he took me to this hospital OMI in कराची और वहां पर जब जाकर मैं लेटा तो अम्मा थोड़ी देर के अंदर पहुंची. और अब अम्मा आगे खरीबी हैं and I had slept until then because रात को मैं सोया नहीं था. तो when I woke up, अम्मा was standing there. She was looking at me and not smiling but she had a look that I know what you have done and I had a look that I know that you know what I had done. So, in all of these particular processes subconsciously there was this practicing of acting in some sense. I hope it was harmless but खैर बचपना था और interesting. Failed in that eighth grade and then I had to change the school. Did you repeat the eighth grade or did you change and go to that? नहीं मैं school change किया और जब ninth grade के अंदर नई school के अंदर पहुंचा I would not name this school लेकिन जिस दिन मैं पहली यहां पर बहुत strictness थी. जैसे ही दूसरी school के अंदर पहुंचा तो पहला पूरा दिन कोई period ही नहीं हुआ. बस लड़ाईयां झग रही हो so I started feeling a FOMO कि यार I think I have missed the board and I shouldn't have done that. So that's when I started trying to understand and learn a little bit and then I went on to metric and entered जिसके अंदर again I failed उर्दू.

अच्छा पहले अंग्रेज़ी का मसला था हालांकि मद्रस्से में उर्दू आप सीख कर आए थे but you failed उर्दू. The problem is. Was it the organized learning system that you had a problem with?

I am very much against passing on the responsibility and the blame but in this particular case scenario it's extremely important to kind of address the right issue and unfortunately the way this ecosystem is made I would enjoy or do a lot. I thought it was my favorite subject because there were different sort of stories, आप जिस तरीके की शायरी या नज़में कुछ चल रही है और उसकी जो मतलब है meaning है वो बहुत different आपके level पर लेकर जा रहे है so obviously it was very thought provoking but at the same time in the system of inter you really had to just write things down because people that are also checking अगर आप course से थोड़ा सी बाहर जाते हैं अगर आप कोई right left होते हैं तो obviously the understanding is also limited that sense because वह masses वहां पर आपको पता होता है original thinking नहीं चाह रहे वह चाह रहे हैं यार एक particular average के ऊपर ले आओ. अगर चाहेंगे भी तो ecosystem उनके पास है ही नहीं जिसको build up कर सके. Right? उन लोगों जो लोग check कर रहे हैं जो लोग पढ़ा रहे हैं उनके सबसे पहले उनको तैयार करना लाज़मी है to get them into this. अब teachers को भी तैयार किया गया क्योंकि market यही है. आप demand के हिसाब से आप demand है, market है कि भाई metric के अंदर यही आता है और you have to focus on this तो obviously आपकी production के accordingly होगी. So in fact जब next year हुआ तो जो मेरा center था उसके अंदर बड़ी खुली cheating हो रही थी तो मैंने काफी चीज़ें exactly देख के लिखी और उसके बाद भी मेरे marks बहुत badly passed. So exactly same जो जवाब copy करने थे वो लिखने के बावजूद ये situation हो गया तो I don't know कि obviously मेरी भी I was not the best academics but I think was also at - the latest stage in my life I really excelled in my education so I would like to believe that you know System का भी कोई flaw होती है. Graduation

so आपने Metric और FSE किया Metric और FSE का है. Interest and board. हां, उसके बाद फिर immediately did you go to college, university या?

तो inter में मैंने अपनी दो साल के अंदर तीन colleges change की. अच्छा. ठीक है, schools मैंने काफी change कर लिए थे and फिर मैंने कहा कि छह महीने मैंने gap year लेना है. You are the only son. Yes I am the only son. तो घरवालों के सर दर्द नहीं हो गया कि यार इसका मसला क्या है मतलब यह क्या? हां अलम जा I have been very privileged. वह काफी चीज़ें show होती है नहीं होती लेकिन my parents have been a great support throughout the thing और एक वह balance होना बहुत लाज़मी है कि line से out होना और forcefully stressfully line के in होना यह एक वह बहुत बड़ा challenge था. तो उन्होंने उसको बहुत अच्छे तरीके से manage किया and whenever I made sense they would listen to me. तो मैं छह महीने gap year के बाद मैं चला गया कराची में एक university CBM और वहां पर मैंने computer science के अंदर although I did not want to do computer science. I wanted to get into business because मुझे easiest option way out चाहिए था because my perception of academia now was built upon what I had gone through for the last two three years. Right. There was no excitement. In fact, I was against the degree at some point. I was against the formal education. Obviously there are flaws but I have a different opinion at the moment. तो छह महीने जैसी हो मैंने तो उसके अंदर भी I started failing and all those particular things and then I met a friend, someone advised my father कि आप अपने बेटे को भेज सकते हैं तो आप please इस चीज़ का वो करें and let him make him go and study abroad और कुछ लोगों से जब मुझे understanding हुई कि there is different ecosystem that is existing So, alhamdulillah I was fortunate enough to be able to go outside and I went to the University of Sussex. Right.

क्या program करने के लिए? So,

I did foundation and then I did my undergrad in marketing. Right. And marketing is something that was, marketing and business management, something that I've always really liked. Interesting.

Before we move on to your your sort of formal education, I do remember this time this was around the time when you started Mansour Studios as well? Yes. You know straight out of high school.

मुझे थोड़ा उसका बताएं कि what was going on while you were graduating and doing your inter and then साथ साथ ही एक नई चीज़ start हो रही थी तो. So I believe that हमारे बचपन का अंत्रा ना एक बहुत बेहतरीन वक्त lack of technology की वजह से और lack of options की वजह से तब बोरियत का. We used to get bored a lot. तो बोरियत के अंदर obviously आपने कुछ ना कुछ चीज़ें try और test करनी होती हैं. तो when I went to CBM तो वहां पर structure ऐसा है कि सुबह से शांतिक university है but in the middle you would get these gap hours. And gap hours के अंदर obviously everybody has its own choice, कोई table tennis खेल रहा है, कोई हल्ले गुले कर रहा है, कोई इस library में जाकर पढ़ाई कर रहा है. तो मैंने कहा यार I can't just sit down, I would start making videos in these times. तो मैं अपनी university के अंदर videos बनाना हूं. इन दोस्त दे शुरू की obviously excess आपको मिल जाता था, दोस्त मिल जाते थे. तो it was a great time to start and मैंने तकरीबन तीन चार महीने किया उसके बाद आपको याद देखिए YouTube ban हो गया. And we moved to Facebook then and it was becoming a thing right before I moved outside.

Right. और दो हज़ार बारह, ग्यारह में गए थे आप? बारह में. दो हज़ार बारह September is when I went. When you went. Did you continue your studio of sorts over there?

Not there because being very young and I could have really make made the most of the opportunity. I do have some regrets but Allah has always planned the right path for you. But at that stage, at that point, it was a it was a big change because आपके चक्कर लगे थे इससे पहले बाहर England के या वैसे ज़िंदगी के अंदर घरवालों के साथ अलम्दुल्ला travelling throughout गई है but I was the last son and I was the only son and I was pampered in some sense and it was I could not even think about living family. Away from the family, right? अच्छा एक तो यह scene हो गया दूसरा it was the time of उरूज rise in Pakistan. जब आपकी छह सात महीनों हो गया यार videos आ रही है and then that would be the only things क्योंकि आपके पास content distribution बहुत कम थी तो उसकी जहां जहां पर तो impact उसका बहुत ज़्यादा था. तो I remember कि हम कहीं पर भी जा रहे हैं अमीर बू के साथ यार तो people come up to me and say कि यार आप वही हैं ना जो videos बनाते हैं आजकल, बड़ी fit videos बनाते हैं. Now when I move to The UK, obviously all of that had gone because I am in a new space where I don't know anybody, nobody knows me. So एक वाला situation आ गया कि यार क्या video, वो इंसान है जो videos बनाते हैं to the point कि I would be telling people यार मैं वही हूं जो videos बनाते हैं and at that age आपको tension मिल जाए और अचानक से चली जाए. तो that was a challenging time और फिर being away from the family आपको शुरू में कभी भी आपके बेहतरीन दोस्त शायद मिल जाते हैं शायद नहीं मिलते but I could in the first year or so I would just exploring you even if you make the friends that eventually go on to be your friends forever but शुरू के अंदर इतनी दोस्तियां इतनी well connected कभी कभी नहीं होती कि you know तो I became a different sort of person in the first couple of years and whenever I would come back I would take some time and I would make a video or two but when I was there in a different sort of ecosystem तो अब पूरा पूरा हफ्ता अपने कमरे के अंदर बंद रहता जब classes नहीं हो और वह तमाम सिलसिले हो. समझ भी नहीं आता ना क्या बनाएं? Disconnect बहुत ज़्यादा है. Audience पाकिस्तानी है. आप UK में बैठे हैं. अच्छा समझ आ भी रहा तो I still remember I can recall कि there was a day कि मैंने camera रखा है अपने सामने and I was like I am gonna make a video today and for one hour I could not finish a sentence and that was the most difficult time in my content creation journey and my time being there. यार मैं वही हूँ जो छे महीने पहले there was a different sort of game going on and right now I am trying to make it और मैं एक alphas नहीं मिल सक रहा है, I cannot speak in front of the camera. I would stutter, I stopped and in that moment मैं अपना self confidence, it just went away. And I accept like I was scared to try making a video again. And as a result जब मैं वहां पर होता तो मैं बिल्कुल नहीं करता. फिर एक time आया जब I tried to gather my conference when I came back in Pakistan. Made a couple of videos कोई family issues की वजह से. I had to stop again. It was going on the rise but I had to stop unfortunately. खैर

यह बहुत challenging situations थी but I am extremely grateful for them now. उस वक्त तुम्हें कि भाई It's मेरे पास है यूं a different situation altogether. What a lot of people I think don't understand and for the viewer as well maybe a lot of people don't know. सलमान and I go way back around 2012. 11. 11 when we got to know each other and you know we've been very well connected since then. इतनी मेरी सच्ची बात है कि मेरे university, high school वगैरह के दोस्तों के अलावा मेरी कोई दोस्ती बनी नहीं ज़िंदगी में. वह भी digitally इतने आने हमोना खाते होती नहीं थी. तो this is probably either my only or one of the few that that I've had और उसका एक major reason यह था कि you know you and I started content at a time when which a lot of people don't know unfortunately today but जब कोई industry नहीं थी right so we didn't do it because यार इससे शौरत मिल जाएगी या इससे पैसा मिल जाएगा या कुछ होता है कुछ influencer होता है और कुछ content हम कर रहे थे because we genuinely आप फंकारते. मेरे पास एक camera था मैं उसको explore करना चाहता था and and we didn't even imagine the scale of growth that we experienced at the time and उस time पर चार लाख views बस literally पूरे Pakistan ने देखा हुआ है. In fact you ended up on CNN.

One time सीढ़े ना leg, shit man, slouch. Exactly

right and then उस सारी growth के बाद एक dip आता है and suddenly now you are expected to go back to a regular life. It's surreal what you've experienced suddenly एक एक मद्रस्य का बच्चा है एक average you get a little blinded in that as well. अब कहते हैं उसको सर पर चढ़ती है क्या होता है कि यार बस जी हमारा तो scene है. And then circumstances happen, things happen and then you know the entire system changes and suddenly you are no longer that person. You are expected to go back into a normal situation. How was that like for you? Because I know के what a lot of people don't understand. मैं थोड़ा सा इसको expand करूँगा, मैं इसको बोलना चाहूंगा but social media particularly you know ये जो content वाली side है इसमें content से ज़्यादा ना जो likes, shares, comments यह numbers जो है यह literally आपको drugs की तरह impact करते हैं और जब आप- It's designed for that. It's designed for that. Right? So as a creator आप जब देख रहे होते हो तो आपको एक अजीब सा drug response आ रहा होता है जिसमें जब आप जब मैंने छोड़ा था ना तो मुझे literally एक sort of एक वो नहीं होती क्या होती है आप जब cigarette छोड़ते हैं तो आपको वो symptoms होते क्या होते हैं? जो withdrawal symptoms. Withdrawal symptoms. होते जिसमें एक withdrawal symptoms हैं जिसमें I had to wean myself off and the idea that oh you know like I am not targeting virality and all of that and इसका एक बहुत massive psychological impact है. So what was that like for you?

So now obviously एक rise, sudden rise के बाद एक sudden dip आता है and now when I am in a new place तो वहां के जो कानून है एक social element के वह मुक्तलिफ हो जाते हैं. अब आप नए लोगों के साथ हैं जो कि आपके दोस्त हैं and you have to be socially accepted into a particular circle. अब at this particular point मेरी input I am I have always been someone जो कि stupidly without filter बोलता रहता है, बात करता रहता है. But at this point I had to put a filter on myself and I had to make sure कि यार मैं ये बात करनी है और ये नहीं करनी इसमें stupid लग सकता हूँ, इसमें ये हो जाए and in all of that process जिसके अंदर मैं अपनी stupid बातों को, अपनी बेकार बातों को छुपाता रहा तो मेरी अच्छी बातें भी गुज़र गई और मेरी कहीं सही सोच होती थी या कोई अच्छा ideas होती थी तो वो भी रुक गए. So it all happened step by step at some particular point studies were going on giving me some sort of preparing me for the next big step in my life but इस side से this is this had become my identity so इस side से मैं बिल्कुल zero हो गया to the point कि मैं दो हज़ार पंद्रह सोलह तक my self esteem had gone down because जो आपकी attention आपको मिली हुई थी वह चली गई. जो हम उस वक्त काम किया वह काम I would not want to double down on this but वह काम XYZ repeat हुआ on certain channels और अब वह भी बहुत painful experience था कि यार मैंने same video बनाई मेरा idea exactly word to word किसी और ने बनाई यार वो अल्लाह की मर्ज़ी थी वहां पर वो चीज़ चल गई. तो seeing that further कि यार क्या हो रहा ये? Psychologically impact फिर academically क्योंकि कभी उसके ऊपर way down अपने आप को नहीं किया था और ऐसा लगा कि कुछ तीन चार साल UK के अंदर सीखा भी नहीं है, जो हुआ है reverse हुआ, it was better if I had not come here और I have become a stupid person, I don't know what can I do and मतलब अपने आप की नज़र के अंदर गिरना सबसे बड़ी हार है? क्योंकि दुनिया आपको कुछ भी बोले, आपको गिरा दे, लेकिन अगर आप अपनी खुद की नज़रों के अंदर जब गिर जाते हैं तो उठना बहुत ज़्यादा मुश्किल होता है और यह ऐसी चीज़ होती है आप किसी से share भी नहीं कर सकते कि आप किसी को जाकर क्या बोलेंगे अरे I a loser. Where you are inherently having that particular belief that I am one And step by step चीज़ें होती जा रही हैं और उस तरीके से हो रहा है. At that particular point, I came across this video and I hope you can attach the link in the description. Or you guys can also search on YouTube by Adam Grant, a TED Talk on Originals. And Adam Grant goes on and explains the different habits of original people or original thinkers. And, मैं out of nowhere, मैं बिल्कुल downside में हूँ. Am having the craziest thoughts that you know I am ashamed to think I was having those thoughts. लेकिन जब when I see this I woke up 4AM. मतलब अचानक से मैं जा गया नींद से कि सोने लगा हो आप कमरे में पलंग में बैठ के आप नींद, this is how you are spending your day and night. I was like, no, this is who I was and this is what I have to get back to. The things that I was thinking were my biggest weaknesses were probably were my biggest strength. The place where I was getting all my stupid and bad ideas from was also the place where I was getting my best ideas from, where I was getting the most spreadable ideas from. Those were the ideas that made me who I am. So, that gave me another enlightenment and I was like, No, I have to change it around. अपने अंदर hope थोड़ी सी वापस आ गई. And in my undergrad, I was a little bit intrigued, marketing I have always been a fan of ever since growing up but in my undergrad I was a little bit intrigued by the business model of Netflix, I had done a case study, I went on to do my masters in e business management. जब मैं masters के लिए admission head के पास apply करने गया, मैंने कहा मेरी शादी बीस साल के अंदर है इस date पे और आपकी thesis भी उस time के अंदर है, so can I submit early or what? तो उसने कहा the last time someone did it, could not make it and if I was in your place I would either get married or either do the masters and this is the same kid जो कि अपने enter के अंदर fail हो चुका था. सब प्रिया हुई थी. I was like, I am going to take this challenge. Brown खून है तो obviously कुछ अज़बाती हो जाती है. Along with that I started a couple of other things. मैंने कहा मैं अपनी website भी वहां पर बनाऊंगा. I took some bags from my cousin. और उस पूरी journey और process के अंदर I was like I have to rebuild myself और यह मेरे पास एक आखिरी साल एक आखिरी chance रहेगा, एक आखिरी opportunity रहेगा. यह to rebuild myself and I can do it. And I started reading. I could still not ever complete a book at that point. लेकिन I started reading and every day when I would read a little bit that self confidence was coming back, self esteem was coming back. I found this hack to make myself feel better and feel smarter because every day when you are learning something new that you did not know yesterday, inherently अंदर ही अंदर आप एक different feel कर रहे हो यार, I know this now, I mean I know something, तो वो confidence आता गया and अलहम्दुल्लाह, I started scoring a distinction in my masters. एक पहला subject का चबिता बेटा, I could not believe it. I was like ok fluke होगा. I had to do it in seven subjects out of the eight. I had to get the distinction and in my thesis to be able to secure the final distinction. Third, fourth, fourth, was like this is unbelievable. Then I also put myself more into it. I was so much into studying at that point, I got a disease called shingles. I went to the doctor. Doctor said कि it's mental stress and physical stress. I remember out of nowhere without any reason just breaking down, just crying and being so happy about it. Feeling like, you know, feeling that joy because I knew this was coming. एक hard work अंदर when you get tired, I knew की I am the challenge I am going to take, it's not going to be easy and I am extremely grateful की वह experience ने बहुत कुछ सिखाया. I still remember आठ बजे सुबह deadline थी so it was 07:30 or 07:47 and I was writing my paper and I had tears flowing down and I did not have the time to wipe them and खूबसूरती वाला एक मुश्किल time होता है ना जो आप movies के अंदर देखते हैं कि वह fast slow motion के अंदर song चल रहा है, वह वाली चीज़ हो रही है. तो वह ज़िंदगी का वाला moment हो रहा था जिसके अंदर आप टूटकर वापस वन रहे थे. तो जब final distinction आई तो अब grades don't matter because you are now entering the reality of the world where grades don't matter anymore. And what you have learnt or what you are going to keep learning would really change. But that one year changed the trajectory of my life. और another interesting part, यहां पर बहुत एक important life change आया कि जब मुझे shingles हुए तो मेरे school He is the senior most person in the school. Because I was a course representative तो I had some conversations with him तो उन्होंने इस तरीके बोला लिया. अब वह कह रहे आंखें बंद करो. मैंने आंखें बंद किया. वह कह रहे take a deep breath. Inhale, exhale, inhale. तीन minute उन्होंने मुझे कराया उन्होंने कहा how do you feel? मैं बोला जी जी very good. And at that point I realized कि अगर मैंने यही चीज़ ऐसी बैठकर करनी है so why don't I go back to my नमाज़? Because in the last couple of years I had gone away from this. Because self regulation बचपन में तो वालद साहब कहते हैं, वालदा कहती हैं कि भाई नमाज़ पर हो तो आप self regulation method के अंदर आप जा रहे होते हैं. लेकिन जब वहां पर जाके जब self regulation sorry आती है तो then it starts slipping out और एक दिन छूटती है, दो दिन छूटती है और normalize होते होते होते हो. And then I went back to नमाज़ and I remember the most amazing time, the most amazing prayers, the most involved prayers that I have had were in those times and Alhamdulillah anything and everything that I prayed for, Allah blessed me with and everything that I have prayed for ever since Allah has blessed me with. सब दुआएं पूरी हुई लेकिन वो जो meditation का एक new form मिल गई that you go into the सज्दा and then you cry your heart out जो मैं computer बैठ के रो रहा था अब मैं वहां पर रोता था तो it's fine. I mean if things go नहीं आती distinction it's fine, नहीं होते पास it's fine at least there is a particular journey. So again that was a very life changing experience because जितना masters की पढ़ाई ने सिखाया और benefit किया उससे बहुत ज़्यादा I believe कि इस particular side of thing ने आपकी clarity of thought to keep you grounded, to help you see the reality उसके अंदर बहुत ज़्यादा help किया. Interesting. 16 में you came back to Pakistan या masters के बाद ही किया है? 17. 17. I came in '17. My thesis submission was on 08/25/2017 and so was my wedding. अच्छा.

So you submitted

it online basically या? I had to submit it online then I traveled for a week जब मैं उनको जाकर पूरा वह करूं but yes. And a tough couple of years. Fascinating and so so you graduated with distinction and you graduated in

e business management. E business management from university of Forrick. And you came back immediately after that? Yes. So what was next? Because you're getting married now. It's 2017, and that's a big responsibility, right? Because एक तो शादी हो रही है, शादी के बाद already एक expectation है कि यार अब यह कुछ magically he's gonna be a responsible bread bread earner. But more than that you're also coming back from The UK, right? So you're not just a पाकिस्तानी graduate of university. There's a certain pressure social subconsciously England से पढ़कर. England से पढ़कर मुंडाया तो वह तो बहुत ही कोई कमाल कुछ magically कराएगा अपने साथ. So how was that experience coming back into this huge change of being married as well as being the you know being this responsible person and man? Rightfully confusing.

Only one thing that I could hold on to at that moment was again that spirituality that I had received. Because सबसे पहले तो वह लोग जो कहते थे कि भाई आप video screen बनाते हैं and we want to be able to watch those. So there was that particular escape that I could experience that. अलहम्दुलिल्लाह, I I have been given this opportunity by my parents at that particular point. I was privileged enough to come back and not worry कि अगर मैं अगले दिन पैसे नहीं गाऊंगा तो मुझे खाने को नहीं मिलेगा. I would not have any extra money. I don't want to go into the details of some self created rules that I had to go through and I had created them for myself वह वाली life experience कर सकूं and so that I have the drive for the right thing. However, I have had this privilege कि ठीक है सारी आप घर पर रह रहे हैं, अच्छी आपको गाड़ी के अंदर travel कर रहे हैं. खाना पीना आपको घर वाले अलमज़ा all satisfied and this was my time for exploration which not everybody all the time gets but I was privileged enough to have it so I was like okay let's utilize it it would not be wise to not utilize it at this point मेरे वाल्त साहब from scratch back in his day he's been in business and he's always been in business. तो वहां पर बहुत सारा options थे. I could go and join into his businesses. लेकिन I had to follow my father's footsteps in two ways. In a way के sorry there was contradiction. I had to follow my father's footsteps in one way and I had to contradict it in one way. कि okay that journey is particular thing particularly there and I was of the mindset कि अगर मैं zero to one, zero to 10 नहीं कर सकता तो मैं 10 to 100 वाली चीज़ के ऊपर कैसे जाकर decisions ले सकता हूँ so I started exploring YouTube, एक time my kid started working well but it did not fulfill me and I was confused and I remember we had a long because you are also transitioning into your career at that particular point and because you could understand the situation and probably the best person for the advice at that moment. तो जब मैंने आपसे बात किया and you were like, सलमान, you are a different person and the videos that you are putting out, whether it's funny or other sort, that's not you. So while you fooling yourself, while you carrying this on, take a break. And that was the last push because I was scared कि यार पहले इतने breaks ले लिए हैं अब अगर नहीं किया तो कब? And जब हज पे गया right after that and that again was a reawakening कि ok this is something that I have to stop right now and I stopped Or I went back to the thing that I was excited about for the last two to three years, something that I studied, something that could use all my past experiences, practices and my most important subjects like psychology, like marketing, like creating and designing experiences, making people feel good. So all those particular things were right there. And at this particular point मेरा acting से तो कोई argument या disagreement नहीं था लेकिन उस जिस basis पर मेरी build up हुई थी which was based on a lot of कि यार आपने dodge कर लिया, blatant lies आपने कर दिया, ये वो कर दिया. तो एक तो I wanted to get away from that because आप कभी कभी there is a lot of smart people that know how to control their this life out of this life but it's very much possible for a person to always be acting right and I wanted that authenticity back in myself because I was missing it और दूसराई tried to see कि all the biggest artist, creators, some people that I looked up to they have achieved everything. Like Jim Carrey and so many more. Achieve करने के बाद भी there is that happiness not there. Fame से मुझे थोड़ी सी वह आने लगी कि ठीक है, अगर Allah कोई इज़्ज़त दे रहा है, that's important. मशहूरियत हो ना हो अगर कहीं पर कोई पहचान ले दुआ दे दे that's very important लेकिन otherwise अगर वो purpose serve नहीं कर रही और I am unable to utilize this particular side of things for the good of for an actual inherent good तो फिर make sense नहीं करा ना एक stupid role के अंदर हम चल रहे हैं कि likes कितने आ रहे हैं या कितना आए हैं तो I completely shut down my social media. So even if you go right now I would post once a year now And that break going away from social media has been incredibly beautiful because I could go back to doing so many more things. Unfortunately एक और जो हमारा एक scenario है हमें लगता है कि passion इंसान का एक ही रहता है. That's not true. And specially today's time there is space for multiple line of interest, multiple subjects of interest and multiple passion ways. You can be enjoying to write, you can be enjoying to sing, you can be enjoying to at the same time do operational work. तबिश हाश्मी जो है मुझे इनकी मिसार इसके अंदर बहुत strong लगती है कि मैं इनको हमेशा से कहता था when I saw him doing stand up comedy he was an amazing talent. Man को कहता था यार why don't you do this full time? Why don't you do more of it? तो वह supply chain करते थे. कहते यार I like doing comedy. But you know what do I love doing more? Supply chain. तो obviously अब अगर आपके पास इतनी clarity of thought है तो वह ज़रूरी हो जाता है तो going away from these likes and this race helped me get some sense of clarity.

And this was what year 2018?

2018 हज किया और वह करते कराते 2018 का end हुआ, 2,019 के शुरुआत के अंदर जो है यह journey शुरू हुई जिसके अंदर आप भी मेरे साथ थे. हम दोनों मिले के. I think you also took the break at the same time. I did take the break. Think March था and I had just quit my job and I had come to class. I tell you how you quit the job. So for the people as well. This was I was preparing for it but I was not ready as a fear, right? To मतलब एक push आखिरी नहीं मिला था. तो मैं इतना बात आया मैंने मुज़मिल से कुछ सवाल पूछने थे because at that point I was thinking कि मुझे एक series करनी है जिसके अंदर मैं e commerce शुरू करूंगा and I wanted a sponsor for that कि मैं e commerce शुरू करूंगा and I would film all of it. But in the evening हम coffee shop एक गए और हम वहां पर बैठकर लंबी बात किया and you poured your heart out. I spoke my heart out and आपने बोला कि नहीं ठीक है, I have to get out of this. I am not being fulfilled. बोले ठीक है यह बातें हर कोई करता रहा है. It's completely fine. I go back to कराची. And in seven days time मुझे अमित caller जी and he's like एक सामान में ही बैठा रही हूं. I am like office में हूं. वही काम यही कर रहा हूं और क्या करूंगा? कहां हो सकता हूं इस साथ? हां train Station से pick किया था और वो because now there is so much excitement on your end because आपने अपनी कश्तियां जला दी थी. हां. उसके अंदर से भी गायबें कश्तियां but आपने अपनी कश्तियां जला दी थी तो on the way as well आप पूरी journey record करके आए and every five minutes there would be a new idea कि वो यह करते हैं वो करते हैं but when you came we sat down we had a couple of conversations और मुज़ामिल की direction एक different side of line पर थी जो कि आज वो कर रहे हैं और मेरी direction एक different side of line में थी तो वो बार बार हमारी conversation के अंदर हमें करना था मिल के साथ वो कहते यार हम इसको इस तरीके से यूं कर लेंगे इस मोर पर ले जाएंगे मैं कहता था नहीं यार अब हमने इसको इस तरीके से e com की side या उस तरफ जाना है. We also tried to start in fact on day one in मंटो मुज़मिल हसन जैदी was with me. There was no उर्दू, there was nothing एक basic के जो मैंने जिस्त्री के कृता शिवाय बना हुआ है तो हमने जाके मुख्तलिफ

a brand this skill starts and and that's just incredible. But उस time के ऊपर I remember it's also ironic, right? Because 2019 में you were doing content and I told you listen, stop doing content. Let's do something in e business or something of that sort. बोलो आपने किस्तियां जुड़ा दी थी आपने कहा हम तो डूबे हैं सन् हम तुम्हें भी लेते हैं बैठे. And eventually you ended up doing the opposite and I ended up doing the opposite so it's interesting how fate works but I remember उस time के ऊपर we we का वो आया where did it come from? What was the thought? क्या ख़ैर क्या वक्त आपने याद दिला दिया? So

ऐसा नहीं होता कि हर idea अचानक से आपको बैठे बैठे आप नहा रहे हैं oh I got the idea and you start running जिस तरीके से movies में दिखाया जाता है. Sometimes the idea is being developed slowly and calmly. So कुर्ता शिलवार का एक idea जब I was in UK तो in the last year I started wearing कुर्ता शिलवार a lot and उससे पहले मैं नहीं पहनता था because UK के अंदर था और वह taboo type था और it was it did not seem cool to a person my age but when I started wearing it, it was very cool. I was like यह cool क्यों नहीं लग रहा है? So I had that objective का I want to try and make this कुर्ता शुरुवार cool again और हम इसको re engineer करते कि इसके अंदर कोई basic चीज़ें हों जिसके अंदर हमने pajamas हैं तो उसको हमने किस तरीके से pant के तरीके से उसकी ease of variability कर सकते हैं हम उसका कपड़ा किस तरीके से उत्तमाम चीज़ें कर सकते हैं at that point I had this particular mission but I had no idea of fashion, I had no idea of textile, I don't come from that background. I had no idea of कपड़ा क्या होता है, stitching क्या होती है, CMTs क्या होती है, sizing कैसे set करते हैं? और मैं तकरीबन एक डेढ़ महीने तक मेरे साथ अब्दुल रहमान जो आज तक हैं. मेरी वाले साहब की office के अंदर he used to be there. और वो वहां पर all rounder होते थे coffee बनाते थे और कुछ चीज़ें भी इस bike पर ले आते उर्त शर्मा पेनता एक button यहां से खोलता है and I would go into those markets और भाई यह कपड़ा क्या है? कैसा है? इसके अंदर बताओ यह वह तो it took me good six to seven months to learn about all of these particular things. फिर मुख्तलिफ कपड़े लिए, मुख्तलिफ success पर. दिन के दस जोड़े बिकेश हैं. दिन के दस जोड़े बेचने हैं. तो यह है कि वह sustainable हो जाएगा और क्योंकि उस वक्त तक although I was coming from a very privileged place लेकिन मैं क्योंकि पैसे अपने कोई जाती as such कमा नहीं रहा था YouTube से जब कमाया तो वो YouTube की चीज़ों में ही लगा दिए और teams testing experimentation के अंदर लगा दिए और उसके अलावा pocket money मुझे मिलती थी. मैं the first time I told you, you would not believe me कि भाई सिमान भाई आपका घर चाहिए. तो because वो वक्त ऐसा था तो बहुत ज़्यादा कोई ऐसा नहीं था कि यार हम कोई millionaires वन जाए, millionaires वन जाए. The idea was to it was तो सबसे पहले let's do the market sizing and this and that. Until this day I don't understand कि वह किस तरीके से क्या क्या नहीं because अगर मैं market sizing करता तो maybe मैं तो शायद उस तरीके से मैं देखता क्या competition है यह वह. I am grateful for all the amazing fashion based businesses that have been there. मैं अगर उस तरीके सोच रहा होता तो day one से competition कुछ सोच रहा होता I am grateful for खाड़ी, generation, सफ़ायद या जो भी आपके mega houses Pakistan के अंदर fashion के जाकरे के because they created the pathway for the newcomers like this कि यार सबने अपने time के अंदर कुछ नए disruptions करके एक नए roads open किया है. खैर और वो उसकी वजह से ecosystem है ना but उस वक्त तो दस ज़ोरों की जो महीने के अंदर कुछ हद तक कमाई हो जाती थी पता नहीं पंद्रह हज़ार का जो था वो three x मिल रहा था. तो वो बहुत बड़ी amount थी. क्योंकि again खाने पीने का problem नहीं था. यह बस एक extra वो चीज़ चल रही थी. खैर वो नहीं हो सका शुरू में. चालीस dress बनाए. चालीस dress बनाए थे जो first consignment था. Consignment था उसके अंदर अगर मैं दस दस दिन के बेच देता तो चालीस उसी दिन निकल जाते हैं and this is when I did not formally launch. मैंने चालीस में से भी stitch करवाया है only 10 जिसकी मुझे pictures लेनी थी and I was like जो order आएगा because material इतना limited है. I cannot make all the sizes and all colors. जो order आता तो वह दर्जी को ready किया हुआ था यार जैसे ही order आएगा फ़ौरन दिन हो रात में बताऊंगा तुमने अगले दिन वह deliver करना है he was all active. Obviously cost सौ डेढ़ सौ रुपए ज़्यादा थी लेकिन वह एक खानी चल रही थी. तो शुरू में जब किया तो the people were very kind और जो आपके हमेशा adventurers होते हैं कुछ एक customer segment होता है that are always trying new and new things. वो पुरानी चीज़ कुछ भी market के अंदर नया आ जाए तो these are the people that you find first in the queue at Apple store जब iPhone launch हो रहा होता है या कोई नई गाली होती है. So their pride और they enjoy being the first in the place. There were lot of दोस्तों people, there were some friends जिन्होंने आकर purchasing की. बहुत ज़्यादा again नहीं थे लेकिन उस amount के अंदर it was a good amount for me and I did not want a massive boost on day one because I knew I am not perfect तो जब लोगों तक पहुंचा I went on to everybody and I was like please मुझे feedback दें. अगर किसी ने कोई शिकायत की तो उनकी शिकायत was the principally information that helped me build my next step और उनसे मैंने चीज़ें वापस लिए, उनको मैंने सही करके यह वाली चीज़ बिजवा दी. So they were like forgiving as well क्या ठीक है इतनी चीज़ चल जाती है and you have been kind enough. So that's how the journey began and. कितनी initial investment थी आपकी? Initial investment जो first test round था that was around 150,000 rupees. I believe 100,000 and then वह कुछ पचास हज़ार extra किए थे जो कि as such इस्तेमाल नहीं हुए. Right. तो जब एक बार कुछ अंदर जाकर validation मिल गई कि यार ok it seems like यहां पर इस यह काम ऐसे नहीं हो सकता चालीस dress बेचकर भी मुझे नुकसान ही हो रहा है कोई मैंने इसके अंदर पैसा नहीं कमाया. तो अब उसके बाद थोड़ी calculation करना आई School में नहीं सीखी थी. अब finally जो है practical को करना सीखे. Obviously मेमन है तो कुछ ना कुछ numbers तो inbuilt आते फिर I made the case study and I took it to my father and I was like this is the next step that I want to take and this is the bare minimum investment that I would require and अलम लही was kind enough to trust me with that and I was super scared क्योंकि अगर उन्होंने मना कर दिया था तो roadblock है फिर तो आप क्या ही करते? नहीं मुझे यह पता था कि वो मना नहीं करेंगे वो अलग अलग he was like कि ठीक है अगर और requirement हो तो please tell me but I have come from a part जहां पर I had lost all the confidence in me and I am still trying and testing these particular things right and any other sort of a thing. तो then I took an investment of 1,000,000 rupees and उसके अंदर it was a disaster trustly funny और interesting incident that happened after that. उसके बाद जब मैंने इतने पांच सौ चालीस dresses, 540 dresses का मैंने कपड़ा, कपड़ों का, dresses

का कपड़ा ले लिया. अच्छा कपड़ा अभी आप source जो कर रहे थे at this point in time क्योंकि पहला जो आपने लिया वह तो आपने market से उठाया कपड़ा. नहीं. पहला भी आपने factory. From day one factory. नहीं sir मुझे यह बताएं क्योंकि आपने जो यह कपड़ा source किया बड़े थोड़ी quantity थी and mostly factories नहीं करती Pakistan में खासकर जो quality of you were doing export quality at the time so what was that like? So the manufacturer that I went to

they are the finest because they have been in this industry for years and generations and in this particular category of कपड़ा because हर कपड़े की एक different किस्म की मिले उसके अलग process है तो they specialize in this. If I remember this correctly, this was wash and wear poly cotton? Polyviscose, blended but also there is cotton, there is different sort of fabrics but. और वह हर बंदा उसका champion करता है तो आपको उसके हिसाब से जाना होता है. And अगर market के अंदर let's say कि एक चीज़ सौ रुपए की है तो just these are not the numbers but just to give you an example कि अगर एक चीज़ सौ रुपए की है तो तीन सौ साढ़े तीन सौ रुपए का था सौ. It was a difficult move and decision to make कि अगर मैं महंगी चीज़ ले रहा हूं तो I have to sell it at a higher cost और क्या वह इस cost पर जा सकती कि नहीं जा सकती? Considering you are a new entrant and certainly you are coming at a higher price point. तो in a lot of those places lift नहीं मिलती और right or it was not easy but आप लगे रहे and then there are nice people out there. अगर आपको ये भी आया तो सब this person that I got to through a friend and through a friend और फिर वहाँ पर कई मुलाकात हुई हुई थी. तो when we reach there, the first time when I visited the factory you were with me. And the guy blatantly said कि I am not gonna give you the कपड़ा. I was like why? सुनो बोला यार तू नुकसान करेगा फिर मेरे सिर पर बैठेगा कि यह तुमने क्या करवा दिया? तो तुम इसका बनाओगे क्या? और जब हमने बोला कि यार हम इससे हवा तीन के dresses ही बनाएंगे. उसने बोला अब तक पक्का नहीं था. So जब first time जब 40 dresses लिए those were cut pieces और उसके अंदर हमने मुख्तलिफ variations ली but जो next time लौट ली तो it was the first time it was not even poly viscose के अंदर lycra which is stretchable as well. जो कि पास वाले बहुत rarely उसका काम होता है. In this fabric at least sportswear के अंदर काफी चीज़ों के अंदर होता है लेकिन कुर्ता शिवार stretchability बहुत कम होती है. तो हमने देखा and it was incredible and not because nobody was in it. It

was a new thing. It was a completely

that was true innovation because वो इससे पहले कभी शलवार कमी इसकी site पर आया नहीं था वो at least पाक्ता ने मैंने नहीं देखा था. अगर था भी तो बहुत rare था because demand नहीं थी तो mills कभी बनाती नहीं थी और उसने भी इत्तेफ़ाक़ से we were at the right place at the right time उसने अपनी expiry because mill that I go to वो हमेशा R And D के अंदर लगा हुआ होता है and he is trying and testing new things even if I meet the person right now दस नई चीज़ें मेरे सामने लगता this is something that we tested. We did not know it would work or not but we just wanted to try. So वो जब पांच सौ चार वो next हमें lot मिल गई और उसके अंदर आपकी requirements होती हैं minimum MOQs के आपने इतना मस्क्म dry करवाना है ये करवाना है. So for that particular reason I had to go and get that first lot और काफी मुर्द तो ऐसा होता है कि लोग आपको कहते यार तुम्हें देख के लग रहा है कि पता नहीं समझ नहीं आ रहा है it does not make sense but शायद कुछ कर लोगे. नहीं भी करते हो तो दे दे यार ठीक है let's just have another try. तो वह पांच सौ चालीस कपड़ों का मैं सामान लेकर आ गया अब मैंने ढूंढी थी factory. तो मैं कर कर आकर किसी साहब के पास पहुंच गया because इस industry का मुझे पता ही नहीं था और मैं तो हर इंसान बहुत अच्छा इंसान है और जैसा भी हो ठीक है you don't have a lot of carts so you have to trust with what you want. This is the CMT unit that you were looking for. CMT unit.

लोगों को बताते हैं. CMT

unit is basically a stitching unit जहां पर.

Cut में एक trim बनता है मेरा ख्याला यह? जी और

वहां पर तो इन्होंने मुझे जो rate बोला शुरू के अंदर, मैंने कहा वो कि I am starting off बाद में मैं negotiate कर सकता हूँ and I am there, I just मैंने बोला यार I want the best quality, I am not going to negotiate with you on the prices, आप ठीक है इसको done करे, market price से ज़्यादा price थी काफी, दूसरी चीज़ उसने इसके अंदर advance का ऐसा काम नहीं होता उसने भाई मैं तो advance लूंगा क्योंकि मेरा कपड़ा उसके पास लगाया तो सबसे बड़ी security उसके पास है उसने बोला मैं advance लूंगा यो मैं बोला ठीक है भाई तो advance ले. अब उसने क्या किया क्योंकि same कपड़े आधे मर्दों के थे आधे औरतों के थे उसने सब cutting कर दी और उसने उसके बाद when I was helpless इसने बोला कि यार इसकी price हो जाएगी double. मतलब double in the sense

not exactly double but let's say सौ रुपए का

late start दिया पचास सौ, 50% आपकी उसने cost addition कर दिया उसने बोला कि यार यह मुर्गा आ गया तो उससे जितना मैंने चौड़ सकता हूं निकल जाए कि यार I want to be able to work with you in the long term. नहीं उसने वो मसले मसाल शुरू करती है और आगे पीछे जो मेरा mediator था उन दोनों की लड़ाई हो गई और ज़ोर ज़बरदस्ती but I was like यार मेरा पूरा steak फंसा हुआ है और मैं परेशान हो गया कि यार मैंने and my father let me be. He is like ठीक है I am there if you need support लेकिन if he is getting

stressed तो he will find it. You need a way to figure out.

Again नमाज़, spirituality, अल्लाह has always been extremely helpful and obviously it was a part of his plan. शायद अगर काम कुछ वक्त तक करना होता तो शायद ये कभी नहीं होता. अच्छी entry अच्छी exit हो जाती है लेकिन आगे लंबा काम करना था तो पहले दिन पर सबसे बड़ा lesson बहुत ज़रूरी होता है. तो फिर मैंने अपने understanding से जब ज़ोर ज़बरदस्ती कोई भी चीज़ करके नहीं हुआ so I told him कि भाई ok मेरा next माल आ रहा है जिसके अंदर पांच हज़ार कपड़ों का बनाना है please आप यह आगे करें तो मैं वह आपके पास गिरा सकूं और वह तमाम चीज़ है. तो मुझे हर चीज़ आने लगी जो नहीं थी सही उसको मैंने rework करवा के वह तमाम चीज़ सही सही होते आने लगी and then I was like laughing. Was like I wish कि हम एक long journey पर जा सकते because I wanted to make you a partner and जिसमें आप भी कमाएं, मैं भी कमाऊं and overall पूरे system को फ़ायदा हो and then a partnership can only be done on honesty, on sincerity and even -On trust. -On trust. अगर मैं अपने customers को भी दे रहा हूं तो there is some sort of partnership that I am building up with them कि यार this is what I going to do for you, is what I am going to provide for you. In return this is what you do for me. But जब वह situation हुई तो बहुत ज़्यादा मुझे सीखने को मिलाकर अगली मरताबा आपने क्या किया चीज़ें उस तरीके से करनी है. ठोकरे उसके बाद भी लगी है चूना लगाया जिसके अंदर we had a couple of people in our company that were responsible for some sort of sourcing and उनकी अपनी थी. Dealing dealing चल थी, खाते चल रहे थे और again an extremely important lesson because based on that we could see कि भाई गलत लोगों के मिलने से आपको सही लोगों का पता चल जाता है. गलत काम के होने से आपको सही काम का पता हो जाता है. So in the process obviously कुछ ऐसे losses throughout वो by losses I mean के sustainable, sustainability थी लेकिन profitability for a long term जब आप testing and trial and run कर रहे हो it was self sustainable and I did not want to make it a big brand in day one. So there was no hurry of के in fact I consciously wanted to make sure that it's a slow journey because quick journey के अंदर अमूमन बहुत ज़्यादा बहुत जल्दी अगर आप prematurely famous हो जाते हैं, scale कर जाते हैं तो there is lot of times आपका scale ही आपके business को kill कर देता है. बिल्कुल ऐसा है. तो that slow journey helped me build a lot of those understandings. Makes sense. If I were to ask you today

and I don't want any numbers, but just some successes. How do you see? What what what has Monto? I mean, we know about it. We've seen it. But just if you can give me a summary of what has Monto achieved in the last three years. I believe it was somewhere mid twenty twenty when you really did the hard launch. So I am assuming it's three years now. Right?

So how, give me a summary of everything that Munchur. So it's a little bit of philosophical to some extent but that's also because how I measure success in some capacity. Financial success obviously achievements हर जगह पर होती it has to be sustainable, it has to be profitable. But वो numbers आपको एक वक्त तक excite कर सकते है. There is different sort of things that are going on. When I was starting out मेरी sister जो है she is a housewife she's got two kids and she want she's always wanted to try something. तो उन्होंने अपना बहुत home based type एक बच्चों के कपड़ों का कारोबार शुरू किया. उन्होंने वो भी ऐसे sending place तो that became one of the objective कि we want to be able to be in a space जहां पर एक success of measure है कि लोग अगर हमारे साथ काम कर रहे हैं, अगर हमसे कोई चीज़ लेकर जा रहे हैं तो जब वो पहने हैं या overall whatever the situation is like, हर सबका शायद same experience ना हो लेकिन कुछ लोग तो कमज़ कमा कर वो दुआएं नहीं जाएं. And the prayers that came in from day one, they have been so thoughtful, so encouraging कि फिर आपके temporary losses हो रहे हो, sales down हो रही हो, आप हो रही हो. You are like it does not matter because I know कि when people like this, when wishes like this exist तो फिर आप कुछ ना कुछ हो ही जाएगा. You keep crying and then they could also see कि people have also been very forgiving because we have not been the best in some ways from day one. People have grown with you. Supported

your growth genuinely. Not as a disconnected customer but as a stakeholder, you know, in a lot of ways.

Definitely and there is most of the customers they keep coming back and back and but before I move on to the journey of about how the customers have been very supportive, there was a shift because अभी तक हमने जितनी बात किया हमने जो plain dresses हमने शुरू किया and obviously you start pivoting in that slow journey of creation. This other chapter, the other side of this brand being built, जो मेरी बेगम है she's been an amazing artist ever since she was a child. In her university she got acceptance in a couple of art schools but वो उन्होंने pursue नहीं किया किसी वजह से और वो business school गई और फिर she always had that particular feeling. सोचे हमारी शादी हुई तो उसके बाद उन्होंने एक दो मुख्तलिफ short courses लिए जिन्होंने digital artwork and digital textile design दो दो महीने तीन तीन महीने course किया. She just wanted to learn the tools because how the art comes it was right there. तो उनका एक thesis था. Thesis नहीं उनका एक assignment था जिसके अंदर she had to design different designs on different sort of themes और एक theme थी उर्दू. और उस वक्त मंटो मैं मंटो के होने से पहले की बात कर रहा हूं. This is when मंटो is not there. तो my wife was right there, we are like उसका भी कोई textile से कोई background वाली चीज़ नहीं थी. I was like, can you please join in and help me make a couple of these तुपट्टा and ओनी because हमारी dresses बिल्कुल basic है. Maybe the next step is to add something that people can pair our basics with. और वो same basic dress हर रोज़ पहन के एक मुख्तलिफ accessory के साथ उसको change कर सकते है. तो हम फिर छह महीने लग गए जिसके अंदर हम painting vendors ढूंढ रहे है. हम कपड़े के vendors ढूंढ बहुत ज़्यादा rates बता रहा है, कोई इतनी quantities बता रहा है कि that was way out of our reach. Again कुछ अच्छे लोग आपको मिल जाते हैं. We found through again a contact an amazing factory जो next level painting कर रहे थे. They were, they had everything as per the export sort of system जो वहां के director थे, वह buyer से textile engineering पर के आए हुए थे. They had the right sort of corporate mindset and they were there for us in the first couple of turns and we started doing this and when those दुपट्टाs, when बिस्मार's designs came out, अच्छा इससे पहले वो बैठ के सोच रही थी जब उन्होंने digital का course किया कि यार मैं कहीं पर apply भी करूंगी in some of those big brands. तो क्या मेरी selection भी होगी कि नहीं होगी? And obviously एक self doubt आपका वो exist कर रहा होता है. And now coming back to that discussion कि आज those designs, a lot of those particular things have become a national integrated part of fashion Fashion Fashion वन गया and this सोम आपको मुख्तलिफ किस्म की designs मिल रही है, similar मिल रही है then जो आपके massive brands है that we still look up to कि we still get inspired कि भाई obviously हर किसी ने अपनी journey अलग से build की है लेकिन when they are also doing गुर्दू so a lot of the credit goes सबसे पहले तो अल्लाह की इसके अंदर बहुत ज़्यादा blessing है because journey के अंदर हम लगे हुए है पता ही नहीं है क्या हो रहा है रोज़ but the customers because they were the brand ambassadors and they made the market shift. Rather than making us being market driven we drove the market because of our customers, because we had the right people in the driving seat which was the word-of-mouth of our people and then it's never just one particular thing ना कि आपकी Facebook ads बहुत अच्छे हैं या आपकी customer service बहुत अच्छी है या आपकी logic packing बहुत अच्छी है और दूर से देखते वो तमाम चीज़ें आप isolation के अंदर देख रहे थे but to be able to create an experience worth giving you really have to carefully design each process, each part कि customer service के अंदर हमारी policy क्या होनी है? Do our policies have to be fair to the people कि उसके अंदर हम उसको return करना है कि नहीं करना? हमारी approach and communication with the customers क्या होनी चाहिए? अगर वह हमारी गलती है और सामने से वह कह रहे तो do we need to hire? Or do we need to be able to be a bigger person and say yes this is our mistake and we are sorry. Please give us a chance and opportunity to either correct this or please let us know how can we make it better for you. And at the same time एक marketeer का खुवाब होता है, एक अच्छा product है. So, बिस्मा did an amazing job and with her designs और those designs then became like anywhere we go and see some of the actors, actresses that she would and I would look up to. We saw them wearing it and they potted with their own money. Right? So that was a lot of appreciation and when we think, when we sometimes think कि यार कैसे हम किसी वक्त सोचते थे कि क्या ऐसा होगा हम इस brand क्या उसके अंदर हमें job भी मिल जाएगी बिस्मा को नहीं मिलेगी या क्या selection होगी नहीं होगी? Allah had different plans तो छोटे छोटे मसले.

हर राजस्थान सलमान भाई बहुत humble आदमी है तो उसको बेच नहीं पाते सही तरीके से. Know मंटो dresses have been worn by by some of the top artists of Pakistan. They have been photographed for that. जो Times Square New York का Spotify का जो चलता है billboard उसके अंदर बहुत दफामंटों feature हो चुका है. बहुत दोनों था but more

than one is too many. More than one is too many to be honest. पागल था ना time जब हुआ ना? Going there हां. तो मैं रात को बैठ के कमरे पर काम कर रहा हूँ and बिस्मा was just done designing and we had a baby then. तो बिस्मा was I think trying to make her sleep. Was in the same room and out of nowhere मुझे बिस्मा की आवाज़ आती है कि सलमान. I am like क्या हो गया? मैं खौफ में आ गया. सलमान एक से दिन मैं कुछ भेज रही हूँ. Am like पता नहीं क्या हो गया? Then when she saw it I was like how is this possible?

मैंने तो इतने पैसे लगाऊंगा मैं billboard दे दूंगा.

सोच से वाहिर होगा तो we could never imagine तुम मेरे एक जानने वाले मुझसे पुछ रहे थे कि तुमने कितने पैसे दिए हैं भाई वहां पर जाने के लिए? मैंने कहा यार इसके पैसे मिले हैं वो कह रहे हैं कैसे? तो मैंने कहा the artist was kind enough to actually buy it from us and then go there. So again incredible experience उसके बाद कुछ उस तरीके की achievements, acknowledgements मिली. कुछ जो अपने customers से जब भी मेरी बात होती है तो the feedback, the advice because if someone's coming and giving you either negative or positive feedback अगर advice दे रहे तो I think it's very generous of them to take out their time and help us build the next right thing because आपको बता रहे हैं कि this is something that I have a challenge with you. आपका यह problem है. आपने मुझसे ऐसे बात किए. यह आपका problem है. आपने आपके product के अंदर यह fault है. And I am so grateful for those people because बहुत अच्छे तरीके से they really came out to support and help

and in the journey there have been amazing people. Makes sense. अगर मैं इसको थोड़ा सा आप tension पर लेकर जाऊं and one thing I really want to talk about is, you know, you've been able to effectively if if one has to look at it, you've been able to build a brand, right? What does a brand mean? कि आप कि एक ऐसी चीज़ है just that excites people. It's not just a functional thing. It's something that excites people. It's something that, you know, morning show hosts are wearing it, actresses are wearing it. You know, people wear Manto and they get excited particularly considering that it's a very fairly simple thing. And so this conversation I wanna have in the context of a lot of young people who want to start some form of an e commerce brand or a or a you know a product based business और उसमें उनको समझ नहीं आता कि हम like again आप भी बिल्कुल एक blind उसे शुरू हुए थे. आपने कोई millions of dollars spend नहीं किए in actively marketing and advertising. There was something in your DNA or I remember even in the early days when we used to talk about it, so you you used to talk a lot about a feeling, a thing that you wanted to associate with with your own brand. You wanted to make sure कि, you know, when people get the मंटू they feel a certain thing. It's a very different thing, right? पहनना एक अलग बात है and that included that that showed in the packaging as well. Wasn't just कि यह कपड़ा और dress निकल रहा है. उसमें बहुत सारे you know letters भी आ रहे हैं. Connection draw हो रहा है customer के साथ. Run me through a little bit about what is it to build a brand and then thereby उसकी marketing के यानी कि अगर आप कह रहे हैं कि आज एक ऐसा brand खड़ा हुआ है जो कि Times Square पर जा सकता है, जो कि morning show host पहन सकते हैं, जो कि Pakistan के essentially top of the top people are wearing it. What does, what's what was in the DNA that allowed for that to happen? Do you think that just happened by design or randomly?

Obviously there has to be Allah's blessing in a lot of those particular senses. Now when we talk about जैसे आपने कहा भी excitement है, times घर पर आ रहा है. I am not sure if that's gonna last or not. I don't know कि वो TV पे कब तक आता रहेगा? Morning show host कब तक पहनेंगे? Because काफी fashion आपके वो कुछ चीज़ें change होती रहती हैं. But so I am not counting on that particular thing. अगर हो जाता है तो I am grateful, extremely thankful for all the love that is out there and you know जिस वजह से उसकी amplification हो रही है. However, now when we come to the brand, because हम जब भी brand की बात करते हैं तो only big comes to our mind, Right? And essentially in one word, a brand is a trust. कि I am buying this pen from a particular company because I trust this to do the job it needs to do. In my university, job मेरे teacher ने एक, the person used to do brand consultation for some of the most luxurious brands in the world including Amazon, Louis Vuitton तो, उन्होंने एक बात की कि nothing damages a brand more than failing to fulfill its promises, more than being distant from the promises it makes because obviously आपका trust अगर कहीं पर वो खत्म होना शुरू हो जाता है और trust एक ऐसी चीज़ है that it cannot be hacked. There is no shortcut, there is no way you can cheat it out कि I do a tactic, I do a hack जिसकी वजह से trust करना शुरू हो जाए. So you start to go and see what actually builds trust that's making a promise as a marketer your job is to make a promise and then make sure to fulfill it. Try your best. If I am going to say कि ok I want to be able to make the best sort of thing तो in my own capabilities and beyond my capabilities I have to keep on day in and day out work around making this the best, most comfortable piece of dress and there is possibility that I am unable to do it perfectly, कहीं पर उस पर वाली चीज़ है but as long as I am giving it my best, the customer is also going to be forgiving and they are going to trust you that okay in your capacity I have tried to do the best of you. आप एक apple ले रहे है because you trust that to do the job that it does. एक XYZ new unrecognized गाड़ी के brand की निस्बत आप एक known brand ले रहे हैं कि you have the trust that it will be safe, it will take me from place A to B in the best possible way. So a brand is essentially a trust वाली चीज़. तो उसके ऊपर anything that you think आपको अपनी partnership के अंदर, आपको अपने relationships के अंदर, कहीं पर भी अगर आपको trust build करना है तो वही चीज़ आपने यहां पर भी follow. The basics remain the same which is timeless. सौ साल पहले भी इस तरीके से होता था और सौ साल बाद भी और अगर आप आज भी जो जिन्होंने यह MBA शायद नहीं किया हुआ या इस तरीके की चीज़ें नहीं पढ़ी हुई और आप जाकर देखेंगे हर दूसरी गली के अंदर अच्छा जहां पर सस्ती चीज़ मिली है वो उसका उसकी promise ही वो यह कर रहा है कि यार ok मैं सस्ता दूंगा लेकिन उसके अंदर एक unspoken promise ही के वाली चीज़ है. So the promise that you have to make and then you have to fulfill it. Secondarily जो सबसे पहली mistake होती है वो लोग कहते है Found day one, क्या it's for everybody. And that just makes you lose the focus because in today's time, it's not the time of masses, it's the time of niche, it's the time of आपके जो एक particular psychography है आप उसको लेकर चलते हैं कि okay these are the people I resonate with, I am making for such group of people. ठीक है और मुझे ज़रूरी नहीं है कि मैं Apple, Apple के Christmas के बना रहा Android, Android के Christmas के बना रहा दोनों ने अपनी market create कर दी है and obviously if they try to वह कोशिश भी चलती है लेकिन it's very much more expensive to convert another

user into your own. And within Android as well ना you have these markets like you know कि ऐसा क्यों mobile चलो ख़ैर अब exist नहीं करता है but techno है वह techno एक market को target रहा वह नहीं उससे ऊपर आ रहा है. अच्छा वह demographic wise है. वह एक आपका एक एक सस्ता रहेगा. Segmentation है but

the

targeting can also be psychographic based कि यार यह बंदा इस philosophy एक तरह के साथ professional office goers के लिए है, एक artist के लिए है, एक इसके लिए है, Microsoft enterprise को target करता है, Apple जो है वो artist और change makers को target करता है, you know अपना वो आप उसके हिसाब से कर लेते हैं. एक डेढ़ करोड़ रुपए के अंदर दो मुख्तलिफ के समय गाड़ी आती है, एक बंदा Vigo लेता है, एक बंदा Mercedes है. Mercedes लेता है. तो

अगर आप सबके लिए बनाएंगे तो you have to make something very average. ठीक है? तो एक तो वो वाली चीज़ हो जाती है. दूसरा जो important part है with smallest viable audience जो कि हमारी भी journey रही है. We did not start with 100 people, we did not start with thousand people. Now we have tens of thousands of customers. It never started that way. So, smallest viable audience का यह important element यह है कि अगर मैं दस लोगों को बेच रहा हूं या पचास लोगों को बेच रहा हूं और let's say you are my customer, you don't know me. और अगर मैं आपको बेच रहा आपको बेच रहा हूं. And then you buy my product and you don't come back to me and buy again. Or you don't tell it to your friends and family about this. तो what makes you think कि अगर दस लोगों में एक चीज़ नहीं चल रही, सौ लोगों में नहीं चल रही तो हज़ार लोगों में चल जाएगी. लाख लोगों में चल जाएगी. Within the minimum viable audience what you have to be able to see is कि अगर नहीं चल रहा है it's completely fine. मैंने एक चीज़ बनाई product बनाया सौ लोगों को मैंने ज़बरदस्ती ads लगा के ज़्यादा करके बेच दिया. If they are not coming back then I need to figure out why not? Do they not need the product, does it not suit them, या मेरे product के अंदर कोई कमी है and then that's the most important moment for you to build your brand because उस वक्त आप समझ रहे होगे तो बिन्कुल this is what the person needs, maybe अगर मैं ये change करता हूँ, everyday you make a little change और आप हर version के साथ आप कुछ ना कुछ change लिख रहे होते हैं and then you see कि what works and what is something that people are coming back for, what is something that people are telling their friend and family about और अगर आपको वैसी कोई चीज़ में हो जाती है then you can scale it up to the same psychographics. तो we saw this happening कि at a particular time we had those circles जब we had a lot of doctors coming in, a lot of people from the medical professions were coming in. वो एक circle के अंदर it was spreading organically. Similarly जो academia वाले लोग हैं, a lot of principals, senior teachers, a lot of those people started coming in and started becoming a part of this community. A lot of journalists, lot of women that have done something in their lives. और by something I don't mean की something in a professional manner as well. But even if they have been housewives, you speak with them and they are such amazing people कि आपका दिल चाहता आप उनकी career की बातें ही सुनते रहें. So a lot of times they are the people that are looked upon and when they are wearing something, when they are recommending something तो वो चीज़ organically एक grow करती sort of change makers या एक sort of thought leaders छोटे छोटे अपने

छोटे छोटे bubbles में बने हुए होते हैं who are able to it's a great book called tipping point talks about absolutely and that talks about how you know things come out of nothing and then become everything.

See your podcast because I don't think it was ever यह कभी boost नहीं हुआ है, इसके ऊपर paid ads नहीं लगी and I still remember कि when you started कोई बहुत कम लोग तो देखने वाले ना गिर में सब views आते थे हां. कि हैं. तो I will ma'am coffee पीने गए as soon as we walked out of the car तो एक बंदा आया and it was very unexpectedly. मुझे मैंने समझा दी. यार आपका podcast बहुत fit होता है और मैं सुनता हूं मुझे बहुत मज़ा आता है. I was like podcast का sun रहा है शायद यही बंदा है. तो again it was growing organically and a lot of my friends listen to your podcast and then tell their friends कि ये देखो, ये देखो, ये देखो करके. So जब organically grow करना शुरू हो जाए then you can double down on doing all the marketing strategies फिर आप Facebook ads लगाएं वो तो हम चीज़ें करें. Even on day one you can do it to test and try things what's resonating with people and what's not but until a particular point you have to build it organically for the product for yourself to be polished. 100%.

We are at the one hour thirty minute mark. It's 2AM at night. Just wanted to put it out there. They are recording this late. मैंने personally I really wanted to हम थोड़ा बह गए आपकी early life के अंदर वरना personally I really wanted to सलमान is a is a is a treasure chest of knowledge about marketing and brands अभी हमने literally tip of the iceberg को भी touch नहीं किया. I do believe we're gonna do a version two of this. I wanna ask you two last questions before we leave. First, कि where do we see manto, in the next five years? What's the vision there? A lot of people, what they tend to do is कि वह, again, the why is very different. So a lot of times what they do is कि वह पहली फुर्सत में कहते हैं कि यार बस मेरा dormant mall में एक store होना चाहिए ख़ूबसूरत सा और. Inshallah. Inshallah वह होगा but you know I know what it means to an end. It means to an A lot of other people would have rushed to get that store just because of the brownie points that it would have offered you. Right? कि यार wow मेरी validation हो गई. Market को तो ऐसी validation होती है ना? But you've played it differently and you're you're you're you're really playing the long game here and I'm so I want to understand what's the five year vision? Because long game is always more beneficial, more profitable for yourself and for the community that has put that trust in you. And what's sustainable as well?

So if you recall जब पहला रमज़ान आया जब when it was actually launched and रमज़ान आया and it was launched and Byruj was so kind to go and put the stories of Mantau. Then her audiences really resonated with it and उस दिनों के अंदर वो दो चार और मुख्तलिफ लोग थे. हिराब ली was very supportive. You, हम ना were very supportive at that particular point. और वो अचानक से although उससे पहले मैंने एक दो हफ्ते पहले मैंने करना शुरू कर दिया था एक cycle build होना शुरू हो गई थी I just did not want to depend on my access to you guys so उससे पहले जितना छे महीने build करना था वो चीज़ build करके I thought that now I am ready to maybe test this 500 dress. तो वो ऐसा system हो गया कि because warehousing और वो भी समझ नहीं आ रहा था ना? तो बहुत ज़्यादा orders दबाने लग गए. तो I remember I think I also did a call with you. I was like यार इतना orders आ रहे हैं that I do not have the capacity to fulfill them. Peace order आ रहा मेरा तो क्योंकि हम एक एक चीज़ एक quality checking उस ecosystem उस तरीके से factory वाला built नहीं हुआ था तो हम hard rest pack करने से पहले hard rest खोल के A to Z उसकी quality checking करते थे फिर उसकी ironing करते थे फिर उसको repack करके पूरा उसका system करते थे so it was a long process और दूसरी तरफ बहुत orders आ रहे हैं so it's a very tough decision so at that moment I made a very important decision कि I don't want thousand customers if I cannot serve 100 rightfully. तो उस वक्त जो उस हिसाब से thinking थी वो आज भी एक करीज़ thinking है कि I want to be able to grow in a manner जिसके अंदर it's sustainable and उसके अंदर हम कोई गलत कदम लेकर कोई अपने audience, अपने customers के लिए, अपने लिए भी कोई स्तरीकी चीज़ नहीं कर ले और उस भी कुछ uncertainty थी, कुछ certainty थी. Certainty थी about the values that we have, whether it comes to business practices, about the things that we want to test and try and uncertainties of where we are going to land. And जहां पर आज हम हैं अलम्दुल्लाह अल्लाह ने उज़ाकिर खान कहता है कि जितने खुदाब हमने देखे थे, खुदा ने उससे बहुत ज़्यादा fulfill कर दिए. तो आज हम उससे बहुत उस तरीके से अपनी जो objectives या उस तरीके से set नहीं किए हुए थे लेकिन हुए होते तो आज हम उससे बहुत ज़्यादा आ गए हैं. तो आज हम future क्या देखते हैं? So again some uncertainties but some uncertainties. Uncertainties I don't know where I am going to be, it's not for me to decide. But the things that we need to work on, the things that we need to test and try, वह बड़ा important part हो जाता है. So, we, really feel के there should be, there is a brand or two that are from Pakistan and have done things outside Pakistan as well. So, I really want to go and try and test कि हम outside Pakistan किस तरीके से इसकी outreach लेकर जा सकते हैं because we have a lot of community members outside Pakistan और वहां पर वो काफी लोग लेकर जाते हैं जो कि non पाकिस्तानी लोग भी इस culture से introduce हो रहे हैं. So if there is an opportunity at least that's something that we need to test. We need to go into detail but the reason why I have been very slow on this is because if there is no rush. जितना आना है जब आना है जो नसीब में उस तरीके से आना है. So when we do it at least we do it rightfully. Hap as it के अंदर कोई भी चीज़ जाकर उस तरीके से ना खोल दें. Do it once, do it right वाली बात है. Yes, no not because you can't do it diet the first time. तो आप Of हम फिर भी नहीं करेंगे but until then जितनी हमारी capability understanding है हम उसको बेहतर से बेहतर उस वक्त जागे करें. Makes sense. मुझे यह बताइएगा do you right

now are you shipping to countries abroad as well? I am shipping to the rest of the world right now except for India and Israel. Right understandably so effectively anywhere else in the world if someone goes to the Monto website today they can place an order and the product will be shipped to their home. Yes,

although we use third party logistics company जैसे DHL हो गया, UPS हो गया and those are extremely costly तो हम वो customers have to pay for that cost but ये है कि because वहां पर alternate options comparatively are much more expensive तो

And makes I do believe you are also working on an alternative to that as well. Yes, so in The UK now we in the last thirty days we have finally

established our own warehousing through a 3PL system, third party logistics company होती है जो आपके orders आते हैं वह pick pack dispatch करते हैं, आपके returns manage करते हैं and we wanted to double down on international when we also could provide the same experience जिसके अंदर returns और exchange कर सकते जो हम Pakistan से deliver करते हैं returns impossible हो जाते हैं because orders are in a good number in terms of the value but also वह custom वह जाना आना तो वह बहुत मुश्किल हो जाता है but we want to be able to give that experience to anybody else that is out there. तो UAE के अंदर we have a localized website we are doing localized UAE

अंदर

and and UK as well. तो the next step is that we're trying to figure out in shahAllah USA, maybe Australia is next but one step at a time. Makes sense, makes sense. And one last question and that's something that I ask all of my guests. If,

you know, you've you've studied in The UK, you've traveled extensively, you've gone to quite a few places. But you are based out of Pakistan and you choose to remain in Pakistan. We've had this conversation off camera multiple times but आपने कहा मेरा जीना मैंने Pakistan में ही. So if I were to ask you how do you see Pakistan of twenty fifty, twenty seven years from now? I do believe you will be 60 round about the age of retirement. तो आप कैसा देख रहे हैं Pakistan? चलो I hope I am

there to see it and I don't know retirement could come early but how again this I don't like to make a lot of predictions कि future के अंदर क्या होना है, क्या नहीं होना but the predictions you can make about what you would want to do and what I would want to be able contribute in. और मैंने बहुत लंबा सोचता रहा कि यार what is the best way I can give back to my country. तो obviously there are things that I don't want to publicly talk about in terms of जो भी हम अगर कोई programs करें वह तो वहां हम चीज़ें कर रहे हैं. But उन सब monetary values को हटा के अगर कोई एक चीज़ है that either me, you or anybody else there is that can really contribute in the best possible way is learn. Because आपकी intention best हो सकती हर चीज़ हो सकती है लेकिन capability learning अगर आना शुरू हो जाएगी तभी काफी चीज़ें जो है possibilities हो जाती है. तो काफी कुछ सोचने की बात जो है एक मेरा निचोर निकला. The best way I can contribute is if I can learn something every day and if I I become a more learned person, hopefully the people around me can get some benefit and if the people around me can become, can learn more and more, I can learn more from them. And if we get into that circle के जहां पर तेरी गाड़ी कितनी बड़ी है, उसकी जगह हम एक दिन से को judge कर रहे हो कि यार तूने क्या learning ली और what value can you provide me? तो as a community I think eventually we will start seeing the different differences that we need to make. 100%. सलमान भाई, thank you so much for all that insight,

and for finally coming on the show. This was very very insightful. So many things I didn't know, कि आपका growing up I'm surprised. But but would love to do around two of this whenever you're in town next. Thank you so much and I hope to see मंटो you know be a big big deal from Pakistan all over the world. मेरे जो bets हैं वह आपके साथ हैं इंशाला. We hope to see you know कि एक internal मैंने मेरी दुआएं आपके साथ ये हैं कि यार आप एक international brand finally बनाए हैं. I think कि we're right at the cusp of it. Pakistan is gonna go global in a lot of different ways fashion के अंदर most certainly and I think मंटो has the right DNA. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you so much. One thing can I say in case? Yeah yeah absolutely.

In the journey that we have been so far and in the journey that comes forward because आपने इतनी heavy heavy दवाई दे दी है. We are not perfect. We are not always going to be perfect. We are going to make a lot of mistakes. But one thing is for certain we are going to keep ourselves in check whenever possible and we are going to come out and admit जहां पर we can improve. Sometimes it could be the quality, sometimes it could be something that we could do wrong in terms of customer service and so many different ways because हम कल के बच्चे हैं. We are on a journey, we are trying and testing so कहीं पर भी अगर हमारी आपको गलती देखते हैं, अगर advice कर सकते हैं that would be great. 100%, 100%. Thank you so much and for all of you guys, thank you so much for watching.

Just wanna let you guys know अगर आपको मनोक already पता है majority को पता होगा. जिनको नहीं पता है we're gonna put a link down below. Check them out. They're one of the best कुर्ताs that you've ever seen. So do check them out. ये पूरी दुनिया में deliver कर रहे हैं so if you're outside of Pakistan वहां से भी आप order कर सकते हैं. इसी के साथ साथ let me know in the comment section below what do you think about सलमान's journey? What do you think about e commerce in Pakistan? Marketing, branding you know associate yourself with and if you like or dislike anything about मंटो let us know in the comment section below but anyways YouTube वाले like, to the banking के बड़ी ज़्यादा लोगों तक हमारी conversation पहुंचेगी और यो platform वाले subscribe over the banking आने वाले episodes