Crypto in Pakistan is unregulated, not illegal

Sareen, welcome back to another episode of Thought Behind Things. Aaj hamare saath maujood hain do bahut hi khaas mehman, jinko bulane ka maqsad primarily yeh tha, yeh koi dhaki chupi baat nahi hai. I have been very vocal about my disdain for cryptocurrencies for a very, very long time, but isi ke saath maine yeh bhi bataya tha ki most recently mera opinion change ho gaya. Uske upar hum jayenge ki kya wajah thi ki pehle kyun opinion anti tha, ab kyun opinion bullish ho gaya hai. But ab woh time aa gaya hai, I feel like ki humein in cheezon ko seriously samajhna chahiye, seriously lena chahiye hai. And for that I thought, you know, who better to talk to than the folks who are at the heart and core of digital currencies, cryptocurrencies, digital assets, then the team at Binance. I believe, if I am not wrong, the largest exchange of digital assets in the world. Guys, thank you so much for being part of the show.

Thank you for having us.

Main bata deta hoon hamare saath hain Roohan Asif, who is the community manager at Binance, aur unke saath hain Hamza Khan, who is the ops specialist at Binance. Guys, I am going to start the conversation. For those who don't know, for the dumb ones like me who didn't get exposure, at least in recent times, on cryptocurrency, didn't follow through ki kya kya chal raha hai, kya ho raha hai. Thoda sa mujhe batayein, what is the scale of Binance, what is the scale of digital assets trade across the globe and in Pakistan? If you can throw in some numbers, you know, what's really going on in that industry?

Definitely, thank you for having us. Jahan tak hum Binance ki baat karte hain to Pakistan mein as an emerging market we are seeing a lot of interest. Kafi interest hai Pakistani markets, South Asian markets, ki bhai yeh asset class hai kya, main ismein kaise hissa le sakta hoon and kya asal mein hamare 25 din mein paise double ho rahe hain ya nahi. But woh conversation pichle saalon mein kafi switch ho chuki hai to something more constructive aaj kal. Ki is asset class ko hum utilize kaise kar sakte hain as more of an emerging market, ki hamare paas jo options available hain hum usko expand kaise kar sakte hain. And 2021 ki baat hai, Pakistan was ranked number three globally in terms of adoption. Variety metric hai, but in terms of adoption hamari kafi high ranking thi. 2022, number six. And khauf sirf yeh hai ki hamare woh top 10 se hum nikal na jayein. To hum adopt jitna kar sakte hain as a country through entrepreneurship, jobs, etc. Koshish hai ki hum zyada se zyada.

Why do you think we went from third to sixth? I mean, are other people catching up or are we reducing our adoption?

Other people are definitely catching up. You can take, aap Middle East hi dekh lein, Dubai, Bahrain, any market very close to us and unke established frameworks ab ban gaye hain jahan woh yeh sab ko adopt karne actively kaam kar rahe hain. It could be regulations, licensing, or inviting stakeholders industry se ki bhai aap aake humein batao yeh hai kya asal mein, hum isko utilize kaise kar sakte hain. And Pakistan mein while hamara kafi shuru se interest tha ki bhai yeh hai kya, kaise hum ismein aa sakte hain, but woh frameworks ab thode non-existent hain to allow people are actually pivoting towards these Middle Eastern markets, European markets, etc. So I feel like we are losing the race for now, but we definitely can catch up as we will see through this conversation.

Makes sense. Mujhe before we get further deep into this particular area, mujhe agar aap overall mota mota batayein, because like you mentioned, the conversation was paisa double in 25 days and I think that was one of the reasons why I was not interested in the conversation was because yeh jo pump and dump wala situation hoti hai, acha yeh cryptocurrency ke saath pehli dafa nahi hui, internet ke saath, internet like literally the internet ke saath 2000, 2000, 2001 mein ho rahi thi, IT bubble burst ka ek bada common term hai, aap log Google kar sakte hain. Basically anything that had a .com next to it to woh usmein paisa pump ho raha tha Wall Street ke andar. Jab woh crash kiya to uska matlab yeh nahi tha ki internet is a useless product and ab woh sab khatam ho jayega. In fact jab woh crash kiya, that's when the real innovation started and uske baad phir humne dekha ki the world's most valuable companies, you know, woh Google, Amazon, Facebook of the world emerged. Which is one of the reasons why woh jo 2001 ka ya 2021 ka ya 22 ka jab bhi crash aaya hai, tab jaake mujhe ab interest hua ki acha ab conversation change hogi, right? And so us changed conversation ko agar main madd-e-nazar rakhte hue aap se poochun, what's the real value prop there? What's hum sunte hain Web 3.0, hum sunte hain Meta, NFT, a lot of these terms get thrown out, thrown around a lot. What's your vision? How do you see the future of the world and the part that digital assets can play in it?

Definitely, I think jahan tak conversation blockchain ki jahan se shuru hui thi, jo value proposition hai, ki decentralized hai, koi control nahi karta, koi intermediary nahi hai, iski wajah se fees kam hogi, etc. But generally jab hum iski baat karein space ki, jo humne value evolve hote hue dekha hai aaj kal, and that can be something as simple as remittances, right? To aapke jo traditional financial models hain and uski traditional fees jo hai are expensive, really expensive. Having a model that is transparent, fast, and secure, right, is what crypto is used for mainly nowadays, especially hamare jaise emerging markets mein. Jo Web 3 ka entire scope hai, usmein kafi cheezein aati hain. Blockchain is like the base layer, uske andar crypto blockchain ke upar ek asset class hai, right? Jahan tak crypto ki baat karein, jahan tak blockchain ki baat karein, sorry, uske applications can go anywhere from retail, healthcare, supply chain. Aap agar aap ek ledger rakho that is transparent, that is accessible to all, paperwork khatam ho jata hai, aapki supply chain efficient ho jati hai, aapke financial transactions simple ho jate hain, aapka cost of trust jo hota hai na aapke institutions mein itne itne levels bane hote hain, that's reduced significantly. And that's like the beauty of the space that we see now. Jo future mein kehte hain bhai, it's not going to be like cyberpunk, right? It's not going to do anything like that, at least I hope it would, but I don't think so. I think right now the value we can see immediately by 2024 is ki financial inclusion to even people that don't have bank accounts is increased, theek hai? Financial access to those that are overseas, those that are in the country is increased, right? And that transfer of money and that access to global liquidity ki aap global markets mein khel sakte ho with a touch of a button, I think that's the most powerful thing we can do today.

Usmein again so do teen value props aapne ismein rakhi hain. Blockchain ko to chalo woh to ek that's a technology framework usko main side pe rakhta hoon. Agar main cryptocurrencies ki baat karoon, what the what the critique is generally is that it's I mean, you can you have access to the global financial system theoretically that exists alternatively as well, one way or the other. Ispe shayad bas yeh ki so so why is cryptocurrency so important? Why can't I do the same with let's say main ek fintech companies 50 Pakistan mein aa gayi hain, a lot of them are promising one thing or the other. Sure aap yeh argue kar sakte hain ki woh regulated bahut zyada hain. You are unregulated right now. You will eventually be regulated and so you stand side by side to them, right? What's the real value prop then when that same access can be provided to anyone? Again, we've had recently we had a money exchange company come in and they spoke about you know ki hum kis tarah se karte hain, digital ho gaya hai. 7 seconds mein aap UK se paise bhejein, 7 seconds mein woh aapke bank account mein drop hote hain. And that's crazy fast, right? Like ek zamana tha jab suitcases mein cash aaya karta hota tha to 2, 7 seconds and in your bank account. What's the beyond the novelty, what's the unique selling point for for cryptocurrencies then?

I mean, I wouldn't take blockchain out of the conversation for this, right? The technology itself what makes it is what makes it novel, right? Cryptocurrencies itself. Ki aap usi access, usi ek asset class ko leke transparent kar dete ho, pehli baat, right? Secure kar dete ho, right? The ownership lies with you and woh jo hota hai na ki aapke paas ek control hota hai of your assets itself, right? That is very important. I don't think we realize it yet and I think that's primarily ki financial inclusion duniya mein itni kam hai. But jab aapke paas apne assets ka control hota hai, you can use them for a variety of things, right? And that again is as simple as knowing where your money is, where it's going, how it's being used, right? And most of the times woh jo hidden fees, terms and conditions aati hain, usmein woh sab cheezein nikal jati hain. To when we are comparing fintechs to maybe crypto or blockchain, right, wahan woh terms and condition woh jo star aata hai woh aapke saamne hota hai and you know what you are getting into. Many a times I think as as fintech evolves we will see less of that easier transaction fees, but I think today woh jo value proposition that fintechs can provide maybe in a few years from now exists right now. Jahan tak regulations ki baat aati hai, that's something as a company, Binance, hum log chase kar rahe hain. Obviously without sustainable regulations, yeh cheez itni aage jayegi nahi, especially for emerging markets, right? Emerging markets to waise hi aage, they are ahead of the curve. Emerging markets were still playing catch up. So once we have progressive regulations in place, usmein hota kya hai ki aap innovation jo hai country mein aap usko stifle nahi kar rahe. You have jobs coming up, you have entrepreneurs coming up, you have again people earning in currencies that they want to earn in and they are able to transfer that value anywhere. So it's a democratization of value compared to Web 2 jismein democratization of information hai. You are mang, your fang controls everything and this time you control the value at every single point within the chain.

Makes sense. Roohan, if I were to ask you and this is something jo ke kafi logon ke dimagh mein aata hai, is cryptocurrency or owning a cryptocurrency in Pakistan illegal as of right now?

I think aapne bahut acha question poocha hai aur I think kafi logon ko is point se clarity bhi zaroor hogi ki Pakistan mein ya waise globally crypto khareedna ya ya bechna sahi hai ya galat. Lekin I think iske peeche thoda sa aap samajhne ki zaroorat hai. For example, koi bhi nayi technology aati hai, usmein thoda sa time lagta hai, thoda sa challenging hota hai logon ke liye samajhna usko. Phir uske baad us kisi bhi particular asset class ka law banta hai, pehle samajhne ke baad. Usko agar jab tak aap study nahi karenge to you will never realize ki uska potential kya hai ya uska use case kya hai ya woh kaise aam aadmi ko benefit kar sakti hai. To Pakistan ke andar agar hum bilkhusoos baat karein jaise cryptocurrency bani hai 2009 mein, jo wajood mein aaya Bitcoin, white paper, Satoshi Nakamoto, yeh saari aapne technical terms badi sunte rahe honge. Pakistan mein abhi jo landscape hai, uske mutabiq crypto is unregulated, not illegal. Yeh sabse pehli clarity hai jo I think sabko hona chahiye aur yeh main kyun kar raha hoon ya main kyun keh raha hoon, kyunki iska law exist nahi karta. Jab kisi ka law exist karta ho usmein yeh ho ki yeh cheez is wajah se hai ki iska harm zyada hai for example, to woh usko illegal ya legal banata hai. To abhi I think ispe kaam zaroor chal raha hai, woh kafi markets mein aap globally dekhein, aap Dubai ki baat karein, Bahrain ki baat karein, in fact I will say El Salvador ki baat karein, unhone to as a legal tender isko use kar rahe hain. To aap wahan kuch khareed sakte hain, hotel apna book kara sakte hain, to woh saari jo aap abhi real cash se karte hain kaam, woh possible hain aur yahi hamari neighboring countries aap India mein dekh lein, ahista ahista regulation wahan hoti ja rahi hai. To aisi kafi countries hain jahan ho raha hai. So I think sabse bada yeh narrative jo perception hai woh humein change karne ki zaroorat hai ki it's illegal in Pakistan which it is not.

Regulation ki humne multiple times baat ki, I mean neither one of you can sort of chip in on this, but duniya mein kya hai? What's the gold standard as it's beginning to emerge? Aapne kaha India mein, you know, some sort of regulation ki baat ho rahi hai ya ho gayi hai. Middle East mein to I am sure, you know, they are very receptive to to digital currencies or digital assets. El Salvador again, woh to ek alag hi level pe, alag hi flow mein chal rahe hain. But what's the general feeler? Agar main regulation ki baat karoon ki kis qisam ki regulations hain, kis tarah se leke chal rahi hain different countries and economies, and aap log kis taraf, how do you see the future particularly? Abhi yani ki regulations, us sawal ko is tarah agar aap dekhein ki regulation kis tarah ki emerge kar rahi hai and future of cryptocurrency, what's the dream here? What what are you trying to build?

Yeah, there's no gold standard abhi regulation mein. Obviously aap ek country ya ek jurisdiction ki playbook dusre mein nahi apply kar sakte. Sabke apne circumstances hain. I think there's a few things to be cognizant about ki aapko dimagh mein rakhna hota hai ki bhai is it is it is there a know your customer, right? Do you know who you are dealing with? Uski risk appetite kya hai? How are you mitigating that risk for your economy, right? And these are there are some standards jo jaise for example IMF ne bhi mention kiye hain ki aapne yeh yeh karna chahiye, yeh hamari recommendations hain. But generally jo aapki market appetite honi chahiye is about ki bhai aisi regulation ho jiske andar someone within that jurisdiction kuch bana paye, kuch bech paye, kuch usse kar paye, right? And without stifling them. And aapko yeh yaad rakhna hai ki jahan bhi regulations aa rahi hain, evolve kar rahi hain day by day. Last year humne Dubai, Bahrain for example wahan licenses liye, Europe etc. Dubai, Bahrain has is a good example jisko main quote kar raha hoon because they have been very progressive with it, right? To wahan hamare virtual assets waghaira ke saath hain and usmein yeh hota hai ki aapki jo daily occurrences ho rahe hain within the space, usko bhi aap leke chal rahe ho within your regulations ki hum ek cheez ko limit na kar dein is space mein that might stifle that that might stifle the space itself. To when we talk about regulations, to you want to picture a world jahan aapke anyone who comes in the space can actually use it freely and do something about it. What it means baad mein jaake for you know what's the picture, larger picture, agar Pakistan ki baat karein, aap yaqeen jaanein bahut ladke ladkiyan yahan much younger than us, theek hai? They are working international jobs in the space, right? And there are much more people that are actually, you know, building their own companies in the space. There are some kafi successful examples hain Pakistanion ki, but unka naam kabhi saamne nahi aata. There's many. And I think woh narrative thoda humein badalna hoga and that's primarily ki aap woh ek open playground de do na logon ko ki bhai karo but batao, theek hai? Hum aapko support karenge, hum aapko champion karenge and hopefully that's the case in the next few years.

But jobs ki aapne baat ki, what are they working as? Are they working as asset managers ya woh general jobs kar rahe hain which is backed by crypto? If you could expand on that.

I mean, generally mere circle mein at least what I see, blockchain developers, smart contract developers, some of the high paying jobs in the world, right, now. Could be marketing, could be anything, like general functional roles exist in this space. Aap kuch naya nahi kar rahe space mein. Wahi cheezein aap transfer karke yahan la rahe ho and obviously jo language hai, jo semantics hai behind this, woh thodi bahut change ho rahi hai and that's like anyone can really pick that up and you know work around that. So it's pretty simple.

Agar main ismein kahoon, a lot of people have spoken to me about this IT sector ke andar ek accepted use case hai. But people Pakistan mein a lot of people say ki yaar PayPal nahi hai hamare paas, right? And PayPal is effectively the gold standard globally ki yaar aapne peer-to-peer paise transfer karne hain to aap woh kar sakte ho. To aap freelancer ho, aapne kisi ke liye website develop ki, ya aapne kisi ke liye koi chota mota kaam kiya, to woh generally kehte hain yaar email address batao aur main tumhe PayPal se transfer kar doonga. Pakistan mein woh cheez nahi hai. So you have to then rely on other players effectively jo ke jiske darmiyan mein 50 qisam ke jo hai na margin cuts ho rahe hote hain, you know, one layer and then second layer and then banking layer and so on and so forth. I do know that there are a lot of people now jo ke Pakistan se baith ke cryptocurrencies mein payments receive kar rahe hain effectively. Do you think as a mode of payment this could be useful in the future?

Absolutely. So retail jo transactions hain aapki, yani kafi duniya mein ispe experiments ho rahe hain through either CBDCs which are central bank digital currencies, jo government issue karti hai, ya phir through asset classes such as Bitcoin itself. Yani Bitcoin ke ATMs bhi hain duniya mein, now you can just put a card in and take your Bitcoin out. Jo retail transactions hain, talking about supply chain again, you can have a seamless platform that is used across any touchpoint. It could be shopping for food, shopping for clothes, going for food, buying a company, right? And if you speak one language, agar aap ek hi language baat karein jo crypto hai, right? To aapke paas saare benefits, security, transparency, trust mitigate ho jata hai and you can actually have something that is clean, easy, and really effective when doing any sort of payments.

Pakistan mein jo last sort of boom and bust cycle aaya tha, usmein kaha jata hai ki bahut saare logon ne for lack of better word shitcoins ke upar jo hai apna paisa dubaya. Zahir hai ek aisi economy, main principally bahut agree karta hoon is cheez se ki it is the future one way or the other. And this time around, there are certain geopolitical shifts, jiski wajah se it is become it is increasingly becoming more logical that at least some form of cryptocurrencies will become gold standard in the future. But while that is true, usi ke saath saath there is an entire market like scams and this and that woh saara ka saara ho raha hai. Aur zahir hai aap to yeh kehte hain ki yaar aap nahi, matlab generally ek woh hai to woh yeh kahega ki yaar dekhein yeh to consumer ka kaam hai ki woh apni due diligence kare. Jab aap jaate hain aur jaake ek extremely underdeveloped market ke andar completely space de dete hain ki yaar khel jaise tune khelna hai, to there is obviously a very high chance of them getting screwed up. Do you think it would have been better to lock Pakistan or countries like Pakistan or emerging markets in general to a more secure set of assets like bajaye iske ki anything that is listed is effectively buyable there, you know, aap kuch hai na at the top of your mind, aap koi Ethereum, Bitcoin aur is tarah ke 10-12 samajh aate hain. Maybe exposure to them would have been better than exposure to any and everything where again ek ek vagus of you know exchange was happening of sorts. What are your thoughts on that?

I mean, generally all of this due diligence ki jab aap baat kar rahe hain, yeh saara attribute ho jata hai at a foundational level ki bhai aapke paas education is space ki nahi hai, right? To hota kya hai and what happens, chahe dhabe pe jaye, sabki conversations yahi ho rahi hai, bhai kis mein invest karoon, right? And that essentially ki bhai mere usne yeh bola, mere paise double ho jayenge, main ismein daloon, fala dhimkana. To actually limiting the coins ya limiting the offerings ya assets doesn't really change that too much. What changes that narrative is two things, primarily in my opinion is number one, adoption through education and that education needs to be very at a very foundational level ki bhai and that's financial education. It doesn't have to be crypto.

education. It has to be financial education. Right. Secondly, progressive regulation, right? If you have an authority or a bunch of authorities telling you how to do this, right? That's a good way to do this. Ab kafi jurisdiction maybe the excise excise taxations or you know capital gains etc. There are many things that you can do about this, right? What playbook works for Pakistan, that could be a conversation, a separate conversation. But jahan tak hum iski baat karein with Pakistan or Pakistaniyo ka interest on how they're sort of getting into this, it's generally ke bhai now, more than ever compared to the last bull market, conversation has been ke bhai how do I actually make a solid, secure investment into this? What does that investment mean to me, right? And what can I do with that investment, right? To conversation thodi shift ho rahi hai. Yahi farq hai thodi emerge markets mein aur emerging. Emerge mein ye conversation has been a thing of the past now. Emerging mein that's coming out now. Better late than never, you know. And hopefully that sort of offering, that sort of dialogue ke bhai mere dost ne kaha tha invest kar do, that's reduced. Ab obviously emerge markets mein bhi ye hota hai, aisi baat nahi hai. But the more conversations we have at maybe at a state level or in an industry level, that could reduce that level and change the conversation towards what can I actually do with this asset class and actually capture the interest properly, make us a hub for crypto in the next future.

Makes sense. Rohan, if I were to ask you again, what I'm trying to really gauge here is consumer protection, right? Potentially frauds ho sakte hain, potentially, so it's a financial market essentially. And I agree with Hamza here ke stock market mein bhi government regulation protects the consumer, right? So insider trading ke laws hain, that's the thing, aur ke laws hain, to wo government ka kaam hai ke wo laws banaye. Wo kahe yaar karo, be a part of it, but do it in a safe and secure way and consumer ko protect karna government ka kaam hai. But on a platform level, even stock market ki agar main baat karta hoon, to as an exchange, it still does a certain level of due diligence to say ke yaar acha public listed company jab hogi to uske numbers kya hain, uske financials kya hain, at least wo ek certain level pe hogi, phir jaake wo market mein aa sakti hai aur uske baad phir you know they make sure ke wo quarterly apna wo content public karein, batayein ke kya hai, kya nahi hai. And through that, public is able to identify ke actually chal kya raha hai. On a digital exchange, what all do you do, first of all, to make sure ke acha, matlab can I make a sort of a shitcoin and then list it on a platform, on any platform? Ya ab platforms is level pe aa gaye hain ke wo keh rahe hain nahi yaar, there are certain things that will allow ke currencies list hongi ya nahi hogi aur farigh currencies ko hum delist karna shuru kar denge. And then secondly, again, as with any sort of financial market, frauds attract hote hi hote hain. Aap jo bhi kar lein, aap emerged market ho, emerging market ho, frauds aayenge. How do you deal with that?

Pehle aate hain is sawaal pe ke jab aapne pucha ke kisi bhi project ko list kiya kaise jata hai hamari exchange ho ya globally kisi bhi exchange pe. To sabse pehle kisi bhi project ko vet zaroor kiya jata hai. Ab wo vet karne ke different protocols hote hain. Acha, jab wo aane kisi bhi project ko hum sabse pehle to uska use case dekhte hain, unki team kya hai, problem wo kya solve kar rahe hain, unka market cap kya hai, kitne active addresses hain jo actually trade karein uske andar. Uske baad aap sabse pehle ye bhi dekh rahe hote hain ke aapne shitcoins ki baat ki, to main usse hi ek baat abhi karta hoon ke I think humne ek Pepe coin list kiya tha recently, so jisko bhi ek shitcoin ke taur par hota hai. So, I think aur factors uske alawa use case wagera ke community influence ye bhi bahut important role hai. To koi bhi hum coin list karne se pehle I think due diligence apni karne ke through, vetting process ke through jaane ke through, community ka jo role hai usko bhi bahut zyada value karte hain. But at the same time, hamara emphasis aap saare educational material aap dekhein, usme hum aksar baat karte hain educate yourself, seekhna hai aapne. Pakistan ke andar we have been doing a lot of campaigns jisme hamara focus primarily yahi tha ke aapne khud seekhna hai. Ab jab seekhne ki baat main kar raha hoon, to koi bhi aap jaisa ya mere jaisa naya user hai jo bilkul abhi list, bilkul initial phase pe hai aur start karna chahta hai apni journey, wo sabse pehle ye aata hai ke yaar mujhe paise banane hain, right? Ek ye uska narrative hota hai ya mujhe koi trading signal ka group mil jaye jisse bas main paise bana loon. And just in case if things doesn't work out the way it is intended to, but lekin usme end mein phir wo bechara suffer karta hai aur phir wo rota hai, raen-saen aate hain uske ke yaar idhar ye ho gaya. So, I think uske sath agar aap ye is project mein kisi mein bhi invest kar rahe hain, apna portfolio bana rahe hain, to aapko ye zaroor pata hona chahiye ke kin value propositions ko main consider karte hue ye kaam kar raha hoon aur aane wale dino mein iski value hai wo kyun hai. Ab isme thoda sa aap narratives ka concept le aayen. Aapne ek zamane mein NFTs ka bada sun raha tha, badi hype thi, metaverse ki thi aur phir abhi recently artificial intelligence pe to I think saari discussion chal raha hai, ChatGPT aur baaki saare products pe. To I think ye narratives bhi with the passage of time change hote rehte hain. And again, ab aap kis tarah ke investor hain, if you are a scalper ya aap swing trader hain, to I think ye wale factors bhi hain jo aapko evaluate zaroor karne hain, but in the end.

Ye to obviously wo hain jo ke investor ek dafa platform ke andar aa gaya aur wo investment ke usme aap educate kar rahe hain. What about generally, like trading mein aapko fraud aa raha hai ya koi I don't know, I'm not sure ke kis level ka aata hai, but are there fail-safes to ensure ke yaar mera paisa koi leke bhaag nahi gaya ya how do I even know that this exchange is real, right? Like where's is is it anything? Is it just a website with numbers popping up?

I think yahan centralized exchanges ka concept samajhne ki sabse zyada zaroorat hai. Bitcoin jo ka jo initial concept tha, that was based on decentralization, sabko pata hai ke aap owner hain, har apni cheez ke. Phir ye centralized exchanges ka ka jo concept hai, log puchte hain ke exchanges to centralized hain, to decentralized pe to ye model based tha, right? Ab jo naya user aata hai, unko nahi pata ke crypto kaise khareedni hai, theek hai? Ye platform safe hai ya nahi, ya aap jab khareedte hain cryptocurrency kisi bhi mode se, to aapko ye nahi pata hota third party kaisi hai, right? Aap kaise us pe purchase karna chahenge? To I think iske concept ko bifurcate karna, samajhna decentralized aur centralized exchanges ka, ye sabse pehle to important hai. Centralized exchanges kya karte hain, wo poori koshish karte hain ke as a custodian kaam karein jab tak unke exchange pe user aa raha hai aur uski jo journey hai, experience hai, wo tab tak unko guide karta rahe. Ab for example, Binance ki main example doon, agar aap koi bhi product pick kar lete hain, just in case spot ya koi bhi x y z product aap pick kar lete hain, us product ke andar hamare paas kya hota hai ke user jab tap karta hai, to uske paas educational videos aati hain within the app. Yaani agar aapko nahi pata ye cheez kaise kaam karti hai, to aapki jo journey hogi aage ki wo aapko educate kar dete hain. Now, it's up to you ke aap kya karte hain. Ab baat idhar aa gayi ke adoption ki jab hum baat kar rahe hain, uske sath hum sath sath education bhi kar rahe hain aur jahan tak hum baat karte hain safety ki jo sabse important hai, I think kaafi logon ko concern hota hai ke hamara trust kaise ho, to uske liye hum definitely uh definitely koshish hamari yahi hoti hai ke education pe hum zyada focus karein, user ko at least pata ho aur koi financial advice nahi dete, hum hamesha ye kehte hain ke risk management aapne bahut zaroori hai. Aur I think jab aap is web3 ki space mein aate hain, tab aapko thode time baad zaroor andaza hota hai ke risk management ka jo concept hai, ye sirf theoretical nahi hai aur iski kitni value hai is market ke andar, that you realize after time.

What defines, aapne abhi thodi der pehle baat ki ke projects hote hain, un projects ko list kiya jata hai aur uski listing ke upar effectively define kiya jata hai ke yaar kya value hai, wo kaam kar kya rahe hain, use cases kya hain. What's the value here? Aur iski main aasan misal is tarah dunga ke mujhe do saal pehle ek sahab aaye, unhone aake kaha ke yaar ye dekho ye usi tarah hai ke Amazon ka main jo hai wo stock khareedoon 2001 mein aur aaj main ek project kar raha hoon to main uska stock khareedoon. To mujhe us pe confusion ye ho rahi thi ke Amazon ka stock khareedna aur Amazon ke warehouse mein jo cheezein padi hui hain wo khareedne mein koi farq hoga, right? So is the coin that that particular project is is putting out there, is that the inventory that the project has, that effectively aap wo khareed rahe hain, ya aap uska stock khareed rahe hain jisme us us project ki value hai? So for example, ek company hai, wo company aati hai aur kehti hai ke yaar hum blockchain contract se x y z service perform kar denge aur jab wo service perform karenge to phir hamari jo service itni fit hogi ke bahut saari companies aayengi aur wo aake humse kahengi ke yaar hamara ye real estate ka masla aur iska masla aur uska masla tum blockchain se solve kar do aur wo humein paise dengi to solve that problem. Company ka stock lene ka matlab ye hai ke jo company ko paisa mila hai us problem ko solve karne ka, us paise ka chunk main apni jeb mein lekar ja raha hoon. Coin khareedne ka matlab ye hai ke wo bas ek coin hai jo ke move around kar raha hai aur uski ek arbitrary value hai. You get what I'm saying? Right? How do you create value? Is it value that's coming out of thin air uh based on perception, or is there value at the tail end of the entire process jo ke again stock market mein exist karti hai because you know that you are buying a piece of that company and that company earns a certain set of profits and you're getting a piece of those profits?

Yeah, I'll take the same example jo aapne kaha hai ke is there anything that comes out of, is there value for the money, is there value for stock ya asset ko purchase karne mein. Ethereum ki example lete hain. To Ethereum ka jo token hai, it actually powers the transactions jo network mein hoti hain and network ke upar kaafi apps bane hote hain. To uski jo actual value add hai is to run the network, right? People don't necessarily invest in Ethereum ke bhai price differences pe aapne profit kar liya, but generally jo builders hote hain of the ecosystem go into this and use that Ethereum to function and to power their entire network. To this is the value proposition jahan tak hum Ethereum ki baat karein. Similarly, DOT, ek Polkadot ecosystem hai, usko power karta hai. To these are tokens that actually have a function aur obviously jaisa aapko ecosystem expand karta hai, utni unki value bhi expand karti hai, right? Kyunki unka function is now multi-purposed.

So the token actually is us us network ko chalane ke liye wo token use hota hai?

Yes.

Aisa hai?

Yes.

So jaise jaise uski usability badhegi to us token ki demand badhegi market mein ke yaar mujhe wo token chahiye kyunki maine, so maine for example ek apna network banana hai to mujhe shayad do Ethereum ke tokens chahiye usko banane ke liye, to market mein ek finite amount of tokens available hain and so I will have to look around and buy out a token to run that network. Does that, is that how it works?

Yeah, somewhat similar. And jo supply hai, with many networks that's finite, with many networks it's not finite, right? To obviously jab finite hoti hai aapki supply and demand ka zyada hota hai. Jab jab aap usko cap nahi lagate, obviously they unki value kaafi gir jati hai. But generally speaking, obviously these are powering the networks, right? And as we expand the network, logon ka consensus hai ke maybe the cost will come down, the fees will come down. So essentially jo smart contracts hain that say ke bhai aapne mujhe paise bheje, I'm going to give you a service or an asset, usko code ko power karne ke liye on the blockchain ecosystem, I'm going to pay you a fee or an amount. And someone will have to validate that transaction, right? To usko bhi kuch reward milna chahiye. To that person derives value from actually validating your transaction through Ethereum, right?

Right.

Um so everyone in the value chain gets a piece of the pie, right? And and an Ethereum token, for example, could actually do that for you, right? Coins pe jab hum baat karte hain, coins have different purposes. Stablecoins maybe used for remittances or transactions, right? Many different uses, or maybe even, you know, um using it as a store of value. But as we go, inki sort of values are being defined. Some are built on a mission with a defined value, some are still being defined.

How would you reconcile the stablecoins particularly with CBDCs? So, I mean, USDT is digital dollar and USDT by and large then becomes the same thing. Or or koi difference hai in stablecoins mein?

To central bank digital currency jo aapki CBDC hoti hai, that's generally ek asset class jo aapki State Bank jo release karti hai, theek hai? And aap aise samajh lein jo aapka digital dollar ya digital note hai, wo aap country mein um on the blockchain platform available hai aapke paas, right? Ab that can be a CBDC for PKR, that can be a CBDC for Dirham, that can be a CBDC for whatever, right? Uh aap wo define kar doge what it's used for, how it's used, and that's the real purpose of CBDC. Generally jo aapki governments hoti hain, regulators hote hain, unko iska appetite kaafi acha lagta hai, risk appetite. And primarily kyun? Kyu ke ek hadd tak uska control aapke paas hi hota hai, because it is centralized, right? To wo zyada hazam hota hai compared to decentralized, bhai ye kahan se aa raha hai, ke kidhar ja raha hai, right? To jahan tak stablecoins ki baat karein, these are assets that are backed one-to-one against, say, the US dollar, USDT ki jab baat karein. To uska uska farq aur usability is one of the same, but you're essentially looking at global markets versus maybe just jurisdictional markets.

Makes sense. CBDC mein recent times mein one of the things that we've seen is with cryptocurrencies, it's really pushed the central banks to uh go digital, right? And that's if anything, it has validated the fundamental idea uh that the future of currencies is digital. Um aur ye do teen saal pehle iske upar bahut zyada baat hona shuru hui aur uske baad humne dekha ke ek meteoric rise hota hua nazar aa raha hai. Thoda sa agar, you know, you you've been following this, agar mujhe bata sakein ke market mein kya kaun kaun se central banks isko release kar chuke hain, kaun kaun se have have committed ke they will be going towards CBDCs as well? Uh I do know, for example, ke Nigeria ke andar uh recently uh you know, unki economy dollarize hui, phir eventually unhone eNaira nikala aur ab wo kaafi hadd tak stability ikhtiyar kar gayi hai market. Um what's the utility, like why would why are governments going towards this, and how many governments are actually looking for something like the CBDC?

Right. So, CBDCs 2021 mein were hot topic. Nearly 80% of the jurisdictions unhone opt in kiya ke bhai hum karenge. Unme se takreeban 60% ne ab commitment bhi public kar di. Jahan tak Nigeria ki baat karein, that's a very interesting example. They launched eNaira in 2021, September mein, um ke as an experiment ke hum isko kaise utilize kar sakte hain is technology ko. And uske andar within three months, nearly 600,000 accounts were created. This was giving access to people jinke paas bank account bhi nahi tha ke wo remittances layen. And there was a huge influx globally ke wo remittances ab Africa aaram se pahunchein. This was the first sort of um African digital asset, right? And since then, there have been many experiments. I can't necessarily list out how many there are, but they're jurisdiction all over the world, in all continents. Aap le lein Middle East, aap le lein Europe, aap le lein South Africa, uh I mean, uh South America, you can take Australia. Everyone is working towards it, some version of it, right? Some are more controlled, some are some have more leeway ke hum kya kya usse kar sakte hain, but we have to understand this. Ye industry hi nascent hai. 10 koi saal hue hain, conversation ab jaake

And that number continues to, you know, become smaller every day. To, like, I'm tempted to say that, "Bhai, haan, crypto le lo, aapki illicit activity khatam ho jayegi." Aisi baat nahi hai. As a country, I think adopting that is a good step, right? Jahan tak requirements hain for international bodies, right? It's a conversation we can have, right? Because they have their own recommendations, how you should approach this space. I think usi daayre mein agar hum baat chalayein, to there could be a world where you can have this asset class introduced into the economy as well, right? But again, that, I'll go back to the saying, "Bhai, you have to have these conversations..." ...with not only us, other players as well, and bodies on the same table, that what this means for you, either taxation, either whatever, and how you can actually adopt it.

Do you cooperate with law enforcement for, let's say, I don't know, a case aata hai of illicit finance or terror finance or money laundering, um, would you cooperate with the law enforcement regarding those cases?

Yeah, 100%. I think as long as the request is, is valid, right? To hota kya hai ke humari collaboration, humare platform pe filhaal kaafi law enforcement aur anti-money laundering ke agencies actually monitor our system. Kyunki obviously hum kaafi jurisdictions mein licensed hain, so we can't just play how we wanted to, right? Um, to wahan controls are set up in place. Ab jahan tak institutions ki baat hai, law enforcement ki, even last year, agar Pakistan ki example lein, we have a very, very, uh, googlable example agar aap jayein, FIA likhein aur Binance likhein, we have collaborated, Pakistan mein bhi. And koi bhi aur jurisdiction ki example laga lein, kuch na kuch hoga where we have. Humara kaafi ek page hai ke humne kya kya kiya hua hai, very extensive, ke how we've collaborated, uh, across jurisdictions globally. To law enforcements, um, AML, anti-money laundering authorities, etc., all of those checks are currently in place, including ke a user actually can't onboard into our platform if he doesn't pass World-Check, a definitive World-Check, which essentially aapko mark karta hai ke kya aap politically exposed ho, kya aapke paas ek history hai, criminal history, right? To we don't offer you services. And that's, I would say, the charm of a centralized system. Obviously, khwaab hum dekhte hain ke decentralized ho har cheez, control ho, but pehli baat, education to humare paas itni nahi hai, like even us, we're not as confident in a decentralized system ke hum jaake usme accounts bana lein, right? Obviously, many are. Usi conversation ko aap leke phir, um, you come back to our centralized platform, you see many checks in place through all our services, ke wo usko hum jitna mitigate kar sakte hain, anti-money laundering, fraud aur isko, coming close to the 0.5 number globally, jitna kar sakte hain, karte hain. But obviously humari capacity bhi kam hai, we're not a massive company, right? 8,000 log hain, kaafi, you know, teams are scattered. But once we have more partners, partnerships, and we do partnerships, governments ho gayi, institutions ho gayi, etc., to us, us number ko hum kaafi confidently phir dikha sakte hain, plasticize kar sakte hain har jagah duniya mein.

Makes sense. Uh, what's the SNARKs technology, um, with regards to proof of reserves? Um, is that something that you guys recently, uh, integrated and what's, what's the thought behind that?

So, Zero-Knowledge or zk-SNARKs, um, is, is a type of proof, right? Aap use karte ho apni validity ke liye of transactions. Ab, I won't get into the complexities of it, I think it's a very developing technology still. Uh, but generally jo proof of reserves ki jo humari conversation hai, that is basically, uh, rampant nowadays ke log kehte hain aapke paas liquidity ka ye hai, etc. There's, lack, for lack of a better word, less trust in the platform. And ironically, the, jo blockchain bana tha, was to remove trust. Right? To humne kya kiya, humne jo apne assets hain aur liquidity hai, wo humne public kar di, right? Ke aap kabhi bhi jaake check kar sakte ho ke Binance, for example, uske paas kaise assets hain. Many other exchanges are adopting the same practice, but I think that is a good step in the right direction ke more people know ke, you know, this is not just something ke is, is here for a day, it's going to go tomorrow, right? And you're actually able to, you know, go into a platform, see exactly, haan bhai, mujhe itna confidence hai ke maybe I can put an investment. Obviously, no investment advice, karna hai karo, na karo, uh, doesn't matter. But I think... ...at the end of the day, anyone, aapko jitni bhi information leni hai about the ecosystem, google karo, it's all there, right? Aapko pata hona chahiye technology ka, so you're not ever, you know, behind that technological curve, jitna hum waise hi as a country, as an emerging market, hain aur already.

Makes sense. Is this basically like, if I were to, mera ek dimaag mein hamesha sawaal aata tha, what proof is there that if I buy a Bitcoin, I actually have that Bitcoin? Wo kehte hain na centralized aur decentralized ka ke, um, ye, ye, I mean, it's just a, a number that's popped up, right? I don't know ke peeche actually wo transaction hui hai, wo, wo aaya hai mere paas ya nahi aaya, aur recently ek bada bohot bada scandal bhi hua tha, uh, jis ke upar ek bohot badi exchange, I believe, band ho gayi ya wo kya hua, wo ek situation hui, to us ki, us ke upar logon ko ek zaahir hai ek darr rehta hai ke pata nahi ye front ke upar numbers ghoom rahe hain aur actual mein mere wallet mein aayi hai cheez ya nahi aayi, ya wo actual key us ki hai bhi ya nahi hai. Um, how, how does one verify that? Uh, aur follow-up question, how does one also ensure that, or rather, how do you ensure ke ek din some hacker sitting in a basement won't swoop in, swoop, swoop in and take everybody's coins? Um, because, you know, that's a legitimate concern ke bank jo hai wo ek still ek us ke lockers hain, us ka system hai, us ki insurance hai, waghera waghera waghera waghera waghera. Ek din main subah uthta hoon aur baji koi hack ho gaya aur sab khatam ho gaya, sab udd gaya, jal gaya, tabaahi mach gayi, what happens then?

Ji, for the first part of your question, right? Ke, um, where do these assets exist? Ke it's just a number on the screen, right? You can actually verify that. To blockchain ki khoobsurati hi ye hai ke har cheez aapke saamne ho sakti ho, hoti hai, right? Um, aap jaake apna transaction ya apna wallet address, for example, daal dein aur any of these, um, you know, chain websites, wahan aapko pata chal jayega ke ye transaction on X X X wallet has come to X X X, my wallet, right? And that's a unique serial identifier jo wallet address hum kehte hain. To aapko pata hai ke now it exists with you and you alone. Right? That's a very, very simple way of, um, actually knowing that. Ab, aap, aap us ki bhi baat kar sakte hain, ye maybe traditional finance, Islamic finance, right? Maybe us mein bhi kaafi conversation aati hai ke transparent nahi hote systems, right? And you have to verify ke bhai, how my assets are used, not used, and why, etc. To with blockchain, it's all there, you can always see it. The second part ke bhai, koi hacker aake mere funds utha le. Dekhein, jo blockchain technology hai, generally speaking, it's immutable, like aap usko change nahi kar sakte, you can't mess around with the blockchain itself. Obviously, cracks waghera nikal jaate hain, and generally logon ka jo trust hai with platforms, that's diminishing, right? To us ke liye, that's primarily one of the reasons jo humne proof of reserves humne apna nikala ke publicly available data, koi bhi dekh sakta hai. It's, it's really, I think, there, there are more checks in place with jurisdictions now, and even retail investors now ke bhai, where am I putting my money in, and what does that, um, look like? Kyunki obviously ek events are happening that have raised these questions, and that's a good thing, because now you're able to have those checks in place as well.

It's interesting you mention Islamic finance. Um, recently, and I spoke about this to, uh, a very prominent economist, um, who came on the show as well. Thoda sa na main, um, us space mein jaunga. Um, thoda sa main, uh, so, so think of it like ke hum to is poori conversation ko side pe rakhte hain aur ek brainstorming space mein jaate hain, and the next few questions are going to be around that. Pehle to mujhe ye batayein ke when I look at cryptocurrency, um, pehle I would look at it very differently, um, because I would think that there is no value, I think because of the way that it was sold, um, us ki koi value generation nahi thi aur wo usko sell kiya ja raha tha as a stock, like as, as alternate to a stock, right? Stock mein value direct hai because there is someone who is creating some sort of value and that is where the wealth is being generated. Um, this seemed more like property files, right? Ke property files market mein aa rahi hain, people are moving money aur perception ke upar us ki value increase kar rahi hai, but there's no actual productivity that has gone in there. Aur is mein I think difference aayega probably jo aapne bola na, coins and, um, tokens. Coins ke baare mein I've recently changed my opinion, um, aur, aur that change in opinion came in when I was really thinking about interest, jis ko hum Pakistan mein generally Islamic us mein bohot zyada karte hain ke, you know, interest nahi hona chahiye. And when I was really thinking about interest, to mujhe, it did make sense to me as well ke what interest does is that it tries to protect you, it offsets the inflation, right? So, wo kehta hai ke yaar, main ne aap ko 100 rupya diya, aap paanch saal apne paas rakhte hain wo 100 rupya aur paanch saal baad aake mujhe 100 rupya waapis kar dete hain. Ab ye jo currency hai, jo paper currency hai, that's the fiat currency that we know today, did not exist 200 years ago, and that definitely did not exist 1400 years ago, right? 1400 years ago, the trade was in material, and that material had the same value, right? So, you'd give someone gold and that gold would have, would maybe buy two goats today and maybe buy four goats tomorrow... ...I need the gold, gold back. It may buy one goat tomorrow, but I need that gold back in the same amount. It, it doesn't matter aap usko badhayein, usko kam karein, main ne ek value generate ki, us value ko main ne store kiya gold mein aur wo go- aap ko main ne aap ke hawale kar diya. Ab aap jab bhi mujhe laake waapis kar dein, meri value stored hai, right? Alternatively, cash mein wo value depreciate hoti hai, right? So, us ka offset interest ke madd mein aata hai ke State Bank aata hai kehta hai yaar 20% inflation hai, although aaj... ...to 30% inflation hai, 21% interest rate hai, but generally the fundamental concept is ke yaar jitni inflation hai us ke hisab se aap interest rate kar doge aur wo interest rate jo hai wo aap ki basically protect karega aap ki value ko jo ke aap ne transfer ki hai kisi aur bande ko. Um, and then I thought ke, you know, why is, why is all of this so complicated? Like, why couldn't it just be simpler? And I understood ke because gold, it was difficult to keep on breaking gold and giving them people smaller pieces, so unhone gold-backed currency banayi aur currency ko unhone is tarah interest kar diya, but because of that, people get really confused as well. Then I realized ke accha, ya to aap logon ko ye samjhao ke yaar you're, uh, saving value, or you can go to digital gold, where effectively the value is protected in terms of, theoretically, aaj hum is wajah se Bitcoin ko dekhte hain aur kehte hain yaar dekho wo USD mein us ki value upar ja rahi hai ya neeche ja rahi hai, but that's because USD has value or does not have value. Bitcoin itself remains the same, right? And so, suddenly mere liye Islamic point of view se that currency made a lot of sense where we're actually going full circle and going back to a tradeable, very rapidly, efficiently tradeable asset that is finite in nature and holds the value, uh, are you following me? Yeah, yeah. Holds the value that, that, that you've put out there. Is ki ek aur term, is ki ek aur falsafa main darmiyan mein daalta hoon. Um, Islam is very much against excess, right? And unfortunately, our modern-day financial system is very pro-excess. Wo kehta hai yaar, tumhare paas aaj nahi hai na to loan lo aur ghar bana do, loan lo to to poori duniya debt mein chal rahi hai is time ke upar. Um, aur mujhe personally lagta hai ke ek bohot bada bubble hai jo ke at some point burst karega in the near future, but... ...quackonomics us tarah se hona shuru ho gayi. Accha, Islam kyun karta tha? Kyunki agar again sustainability ke upar bohot zyada focus hota tha ke yaar, you know what, like excess, meyanaravi honi chahiye. On the other hand, jo monetary system tha fiat-based, us ne aap ko incentivize kiya constantly ke yaar 2% inflation acchi hoti hai taake log agar paisa daba ke baithe hue hain na, to wo jayein aur consume karein, consume karein, consume karein. So, if I create, main mazdoori karta hoon, main ne ek value generate kar li, us value ko agar main kahin store kar raha hoon, to theoretically aaj ki duniya ke andar har saal wo value diminish ho rahi hai. So, it is much more logical for me to spend that today... ...and be able to get whatever I get today, because tomorrow it will be worth less. On the other hand, if I have a finite resource, I would actually store that value unless absolutely necessary, because I know that that finite, as more and more value is generated and stored in the world, the value of that stored, let's say, gold or a cryptocurrency actually increases, right? So, it makes more logical sense for me to keep it today and spend it tomorrow, where that value either remains the same or actually grows, right? So, anyways, is poore preamble se... ...do sawaal aate hain, I don't know if you're, you'll be able to answer this or not. First, what are your thoughts in how this entire new modern-day financial system reconciles with the Islamic financial system? And B, have you guys done studies on, I'm sure Malaysia mein there are institutions across the world, very progressive, jis mein a lot of, there is a growing segment of Islamic finance, Islamic banking, uh, across the world, particularly in the Middle East and in Pakistan. Um, and they have this question ke yaar, are cryptocurrencies haram? Um, is this, is this new system that we're, we're being sold, is that against the foundational value of our belief system, or is, is actually that something that goes along with it? And again, ye jo meri thought thi, ye, ye just fleet- fleeting thoughts, I'm not saying it's yes or no. Um, obviously, experts will know that, but it was interesting for me to really reconcile those ideas with this new emerging technology.

Yeah, um, yeah, very interesting. Uh, so, generally jahan tak aap baat karein with the asset classes that are available in crypto and us ka, you know, uh, stance in Islam, right? That's a conversation that's been up for debate for quite a bit. There is actually very recent progress, I think taqreeban 2022, 2021 mein, jahan aap usi value chain ko, now obviously with Islam, the value chain itself has to be transparent, right? And this is based off of my surface-level understanding, so please correct me if I'm wrong. Um, jo value chain hai, that itself from the blockchain creation to transaction to actually asset being lifted off the platform, right? Everything is transparent, available, and ready to see, right? Ab, there are no such existing, you know, spaces right now, but there is work on this being done. To the point ke there are Shariah experts in MENA ki jurisdictions mein, jinhone isko wet bhi kiya hua hai. And obviously, ab jis Hanafi side pe karo, whatever, un ke, their takes on that sort of system where it's transparent from zero to one, right? is much more favorable than maybe something now, right? And I think that's more of a conversation ke, uh, do you know crypto that well? Do you know what actually, actually happens? And then can you relate it with your Islamic experience and make the connection what that, asset actually is. So, currently with the existing asset classes such as Bitcoin aap le lein, Ethereum lein, whatever, us ke andar wo jo hai stance, that's still unclear. I think as we go, there will be use cases around it. I hope it's not just semantics, right? That's a big sort of issue, that's a different discussion as well. Um, but I hope that's not the case.

But that's what I'm saying. You're talking about use cases, right? A lot of our conversation revolves around use cases. Tokens I understand, main purely coins ki baat kar raha hoon. And is ke andar main add karunga jo duniya mein is waqt war chal rahi hai na, uh, uh, petrodollar ke against, aur wo hum dekh rahe hain, it's just one country after the other country saying ke, you know, we're, we're going away from the dollar. And that's a once-in-a-century, once-in-many-century event... ...uh, jis mein ek global superpower, uh, challenge hoti hui so, that happened with the, uh, with the pound when the sort of Great Britain was going through a transition, um, and the US was taking over. Us se pehle humne, uh, Dutch ke saath yahi dekha, uh, ke un ki ek reserve currency thi global jo ke challenge hui aur phir ek poora nizaam, um, badla. Jo ek aspect hai ke yaar humare existing nizaam mein ye value generation kis tarah karega as a technology, mere liye na, aur pehle main bohot reject karta tha, I'll be very honest, main currency ke aspect ko bohot reject karta tha, main kehta tha blockchain ki baat karte hain, currency ko miss karao. In recent times, mere liye value proposition of the currency has become increasingly interesting. I'll tell you why. Because, thodi si, controversial bhi ho sakti hai so, you can opt out, but is mein na ek poora nizaam hai duniya ka, ek sole global power hai, wo baith ke apna paisa, us, us ki basis ke upar poora duniya ka financial nizaam banta hai, jis ka counter aana shuru hua, you know, with the Russian sanctions, people were like ke maybe we, we need to be, we need to have less exposure of the dollar, and now the countries are sort of saying ke ji hum apni trade jo hai wo local currencies mein karenge, so on and so forth. Masla ye hai ke at the end of the day, it's also important to understand ke duniya ka nizaam wo kisi na kisi ek reserve currency pe chalega for the trust to exist, right? But that was historically how it was, ke ek bada bhai hoga, wo aake sab ko protection dega aur that will be the rule-based order and we will all adhere to that rule-based order. Us rule-based order mein actually problem ye thi ke bohot saare log maar khaate the, jo chhoti countries hoti thin, um, kyunki they've, un ki utility dekhi jaati thi based on their, uh, uh, how much of the sort of reserve currency that they had, uh, aur wo us jagah pe kidhar lie karte hain, right? And because of that, hota ye tha ke chhoti chhoti, ek global system mein chhoti chhoti systems exist karte the, jis pe badi confusing kism ki understanding hoti thi. Ek aap ka local PKR system hai, us ke upar ek dollar system hai, us ke dollar rate ko control karne ki koshish ki jaari hai, uh, aur us pe conversation hi ajeeb si hai, right? Whereas in the modern world, when every- everyone can theoretically be a global citizen, the question arises, do you even need that intermediary layer of a global, um, let's say, reserve currency and then darmiyan mein jo hai na wo constantly that being converted to a local currency, when in actuality, I am connected to the world and I can directly buy a currency that... ...potentially in the future, 500 million other people have as well, and they're earning in that, and they're transferring their money into that as well, and so the global economics defines ke meri us currency ki kya value hai, right? So, so for me, today, if I like constant- and this is not just Pakistan, this is Ghana, this is Egypt, this is Lebanon, this is Venezuela, this is Senegal, this is so many countries jo ke is waqt ek shock se guzar rahe hain post-COVID, um, simply because of the fact that their populations were living in their own silo and were disconnected from the global economy, and as this shift happened in the global economy, so they began to crumble like anything. Um, do you think that now there is a future coming where this... digital layer inherently decentralized will allow for ke usme itni support aa jayegi ke wo duniya ko stability provide karega considering that there is no clear bada bhai ya mohalle ka you know ustad jo ke sab ko line pe rakh ke betha hua hai. And so you need that trust which you can theoretically get as you have hundreds of millions of people with a buy-in into that particular currency for that matter.

Yeah, I mean, see, this is extremely interesting because jahan tak aap isme dekhein, obviously everyone, let's talk about languages, right? Every place speaks their own language, many languages aren't that transferable, English is spoken globally, let's take English as an example. Jab aap English ki baat kar rahe hain, toh agar English sab bolna shuru kar dein toh conversations are easier, right? And agar hum us pe hi baat karein, if we make English as the base layer, then it's easier to have more seamless conversations going forward. Usi English ko aap ek digital asset bana dein, usi English ko aap ek digital layer bana dein, that everyone has access to, right? That there could be a world where obviously, you know, digital assets could be the medium, right? You wouldn't be relying on a single currency, but obviously that value would have meaning differently in different jurisdictions. Matlab ek wo asset class could be 1000 rupees in Pakistan, could be 1 dollar in the US, could be whatever, right? But there definitely could exist a world. I think it's harder right now to actually see that world come into play because this, for this to really happen, you need not only the technology in place to monitor and be part of the ecosystem. Obviously, Pakistan jaise mulk mein 90% ke paas phone aa rahe hain, millions of phones per month aa rahe hain, internet ka access sab ke paas hai, uske bawajood, you know, there's that disconnect between the technology itself, that you have to access, that's vulnerable to social engineering, there's no like centralized authority that's able to advise you against certain actions or not. So, I feel like that would be a very ideal utopia, but I don't think that's something personally that could happen in the near future. Maybe 2040 tak jab cyberpunk ho jaye toh see you then.

Makes sense. Agar main 2040 ki baat karoon, a world that's fully backed by blockchain, and we saw a very interesting visual from Apple a couple of weeks ago, which looked eerily similar to Ready Player One, jo ke essentially, again, dystopian keh lein usko, apni apni marzi hai. Hum shayad bade ho gaye hain, hamare parents ke liye mobile phone bhi dystopian tha. But wo us tarah ki ek duniya nazar aa rahi hai. Suddenly aap ko nazar aata hai ke accha, metaverse might become a reality. Suddenly aap ko nazar aata hai ke yaar, we're really make digitizing our world. It's not, you're not disconnecting from the world and going to a digital world, you're actually digitizing the entire world. Usme zahir hai ke usme digital assets, NFTs, this, that, suddenly they begin to make a lot more sense. Particularly, when you add the flavor of AI, where deepfakes and XYZ becomes a real problem, and so the solution for that real problem is also backed by NFTs and smart contracts where every... Mera vision of the future ye hai ke yaar, main ek tasveer kheenchunga na, toh real-time pe us pe uske peeche ek digital smart contract banega, aur wo verifiable hoga, aur jo picture jab bhi transfer hua karegi toh wo trace hua karegi. Jo hamare purane waqton mein metadata hota tha na, wo phones will come with the capability ke ji, every time you create a piece of content, it is traceable, it is, you know, authenticated, and therefore, you will be able to then, in its eventuality, be able to identify ke what is deepfake, what is not deepfake, what is verified or what is irrelevant, right? So, suddenly with these sort of small, small interesting innovations coming in, we're now beginning to get a feeler of the digital utopia that we always imagined, now in a more functional way. Aur ye separately ho raha hai, like, the NFT space is growing separately, but now these things are coming in as well, and now you see ke accha, ye grow karega, ye grow karega, aur ek shaadi hogi, aur udhar value generation real start hogi. So, if I were to ask you personally, or both of you, how do you see that world of Web 3.0, of blockchain, maybe in 2040?

I mean, that's, it would be beautiful if we can have everything verifiable on-chain. I think that wo jo transaction hai, that's too heavy currently. Jo Web3 ka intersection with AI is something jo is a very hot topic, and I think uska intersection, like you mentioned, is more prominent than we actually know. To actually facilitate AI happening with multiple players or multiple touchpoints, right? Blockchain is a good solution. It's a single language, right? You're just sending code, you're just sending smart contracts. Everyone has access to it, everyone has purchasing power to it, if that's what you want to apply. It's data on demand, verifiable, transparent, and secure. Toh with that intersection, yes, I think 2040 mein that could be something that definitely play... I think meta jo hai, it's been developed to quite a degree where a lot of the transactions, a lot of the items in the space are purchaseable or available to many retail players, institutions, etc. There is no sort of bias towards any of them, but anyone can actually access them. Aur meta ka jo idea aata hai, many, many people actually envision it ke bhai, you know, it's, it's, it's very, very cyberpunk. It could be very cyberpunk, it could be very similar to ke aap mall ja rahe ho aur mall ka hi layout ho and you can do retail transactions, or it could be something very gamified, right? It could be all of those and none of those, right? That's really the beauty of it, and that's something towards which many people are actually developing towards. There are many actually, there are many Pakistanis in this space actually doing this, and I can like tell you a few of them, but like there's quite a bit of action in this space. I think jo interest hai, currently, has died down quite a bit, kyunki many people actually came in, wo bull, bear, arbitrage, you know, 25 din mein paisa double, all of that jazz. But going forward, right now, the developments in the space are teetering away more from ke bhai maine profile picture le li ke iski value double ho jayegi, to ke bhai ye maine asset liya hai and I can use this to avail different services, right? I can use koi shoe ki brand ka NFT to actually go into a store, show that NFT, and actually get a physical shoe out of it, right? I think Rohan can actually add to that ke bhai kya kya ho raha hai with the meta space.

I think aap ne bahut accha point raise kiya hai, but still isme ek point ye bhi samajhne ki zaroorat hai ke metaverse ho ya Web3, abhi completely evolve nahi kiya. I think sab ki apni ek understanding hai ke is se aap ye cheezein add kar sakte ho. For example, metaverse mein ATMs lage hue honge jisse cash out kar sakte ho, you can buy property wahan ja ke aur in fact Pakistan mein bhi kaafi jagah hain jo ban jayengi. But again, at the end of the day, rational consumer hai, usko kya important lagta hai ke agar digital maine property khareedi, for example, ye sirf ek main agar baaki log kar rahe hain ya celebrities kar rahe hain toh main isliye khareed raha hoon ya real utility kya hai? I think ye cheezein logon ke andar with the passage of time aati ja rahi hain aur I think ye ek bahut bada reason hai jo narratives hain wo bhi change hote jaate hain. I think thode log ye bhi kehte hain ke ab jo metaverse ki jaise hum baat kar rahe hain, uski jitni hype nahi rahi aur isi tarah NFTs ke baare mein bhi wo thodi die down karti ja rahi hai. Toh at the end of the day, user ki kahan value place karta hai market forces ki tarah, us cheez ki demand aage ja ke, I believe, with the passage of time badhegi.

Rohan, agar mujhe ye batayein, I'm gonna wrap this up at the one hour ten minute mark. Um, for an average consumer, I haven't been on Binance. Um, for an average consumer who wants to utilize your platform, what's the, what's the process there?

Bilkul, I think sab se zyada jo important factor hai uske liye ke wo karna kis tarah hai, education. Uske liye hamari Binance Academy maujood hai. Binance Academy kya hai? Ek free platform hai jahan se aap sab everything crypto ke baare mein seekh sakte hain ke ye Bitcoin, blockchain, basic concepts kya hain, ye hai kya aur ye aap ki life kaise badalta hai aur iska impact kya hoga. Aur sab se aakhri baat aur sab se important baat ke ye aap ke liye zaroori kyun hai aur isme differentiation kya hai traditional, conventional systems mein, kyun aao is particular system ke andar? Toh aap uske baare mein start kar sakte hain. Uske alawa hum different verticals Pakistan mein agar aap dekhna chahein, offline events kar rahe hain, education ke liye logon ko samajh aaye, Urdu language ke andar presence hai hamari, ye logon ko dikha ke sakein we are here to stay, aap ki support ke liye aur uske baad online webinars hum weekly karte hain jisme hum different topics touch karte hain. Aap ne ek baat ki security measures ki, toh usme hum logon ko educate kar rahe hain just in case ke ye wale aap log frauds, for example, bahut common ho rahe hain toh aap ne in se bach ke rehna hai. Hum aap ko, for example, Telegram pe reach out directly nahi karte, hamare angels ya hum aap ko support ke liye zaroor faraham karte hain. So, agar aap se koi investment maang raha hai ya aap ko reach out kar raha hai aur wo naam bhi different use karte hain, isme aap crypto mein bots bahut bante hain aap ke accounts ke, in fact aap ki following ho na ho. Toh user ko protect karne ke liye I think ye saare initiatives bade zaroori hain taake mass adoption ki jab hum baat kar rahe the, wo tabhi hogi, abhi bhi hamara saara paisa 99.9% fiat ke andar hai aur regulation bhi usiliye sab se important isiliye hai. 400 million abhi hain crypto ke andar, agar ye big scale pe le jaani hai toh uska sab ka trust gain karna padega and that would come from regulation at the end of the day.

That, that makes a lot of sense. Um, again, agar main if I were to ask you, what's your vision for 2040 or 2050 ke world, um, with, you know, all of these things having matured?

I think 2040 would be an interesting one. I think abhi bhi jitne log is space ke andar aa gaye hain, they are the early adopters aur unka future bahut jald apparently, again, koi financial advice nahi hai, change hone wala hai kyunki aap un cheezon ko samajh rahe ho jin ki value hogi aage ja ke. Usme kya value proposition uski, kya value hai, user kya samajhta hai, usko kaise benefit ho sakta hai us se aur again, limited supply ka jaise aap ne concept, hum Bitcoin ki baat bhi kar rahe the ke limited supply 21 million already mine ho chuka hai aur 19, 19 million sorry mine ho chuka hai aur 21 million is the total supply. Toh aap ko jab pata hai ke ye cap full hoga, ye cap full hoga, uske baad us cheez ki value ne obviously shoot up karna hai. But again, at the end of the day, isme bahut zyada developments hone wali hain aur with the passage of time ab aap dekhenge aur this space is gonna grow.

Makes sense, guys. Thank you so much for coming in and sharing all that insight. Um, and I hope that we can see that future as well. I have absolutely no doubt, but thank you so much for coming in.

Thank you for having us.

Um, and for all of you guys, thank you so much for watching. Accha, iske andar main kuch do teen cheezein kehna chahunga. Um, again, multiple times hamare guests ne bhi bola, financial advice koi bhi nahi hai is podcast ke andar. Agar aap is se koi financial advice lekar ja rahe hain toh aap bewaqoof hain, hamari ghalti nahi hai. Uh, but most importantly, Binance is just one player. I think jo the... Mera ek bada bahut bada interest ab ho gaya hai is space ke andar, uski wajah ye hai ke if you guys are interested, you should really go and read up on what happened in 2001, uh, when the dot-com bubble collapsed, and what happened actually three, four years before that as well. And you'll find crazy similarities between what happened then and what was happening a couple of years ago. Um, ye wo time hai jab internet exist nahi karta tha as such, bahut thoda thoda pockets mein duniya mein aa raha hai, um, and us waqt ek wo aaya ke ji internet duniya badal dega, radically change kar dega, pata nahi yun ho jayega, wo ho jayega, hazaar qisam ke use cases, everybody was doing their own use case. Um, and then because it was making money, so people started putting a lot of money into it and, uh, not really understanding how any of that is going to change. Uh, jab tak wo bubble collapse nahi kiya tha toh anyone you'd ask, wo kehta ke yaar bas yahi hai, is se duniya mein behtar koi cheez hai hi nahi aur bas ji jaan opportunity mile, paisa daal do. Um, aur phir jab 2001 mein bubble burst hua, toh uske baad har koi kehta tha ke is se badi Ponzi scheme nahi koi aayi aur internet toh tha hi fraud aur ye tabaah kar dega sab logon ko. Accha, reality ab hum hindsight mein dekh sakte hain ke theek hai, unhone logon ne pump and dump kiya us time ke upar, lekin it didn't mean ke wo ek fraud tha aur wo ab duniya mein kabhi kuch uske baare mein hoga nahi. In fact, the biggest innovation actually started happening right after that, and the speed and scale of innovation only grew, uh, after that collapse happened. So, wo jo financial side of things hai, wo separate thi aur jo innovation side of thing hai ya value generation side of thing hai, wo separate thi, wo khamoshi se apna kaam karti rahi. And over the next 10 years, we saw the again, the Facebooks and the Amazons and the Googles of the world emerge and become the most valuable companies, uh, across the world. Mere liye, personally, I think there are certain interesting use cases which may not emerge as we understand those use cases. Mere liye NFT as a, as an asset ke ji maine ek tasveer le li aur wo maine ja ke millions of dollars ki bech di, uh, aur wo toh us pe jo proponents the wo keh rahe the nahi nahi bas ab ye hoga. Kyun hoga? Koi nahi pata. Jo uske opponents the wo keh rahe the nahi ji main toh right click karke save kar sakta hoon is image ko toh main kyun uske itne million doon? Toh ye toh stupidity ki baat hai. Wo ye nahi realize kar rahe ke aaj se 10, 15, 20 saal baad ki duniya ka ecosystem kya hoga. Aaj aap ke liye wo right click and save exist karta hai, but like I mentioned before, and I've mentioned this on another podcast as well, the vision of the future that I see is, NFT abhi in bhai ne bola ke, uh, cost of that transaction is very high, and I think the time ke agar main for example ek NFT generate kar raha hoon real-time ke upar toh iski cost zyada hai. I agree. But that's where the wo, wo ek particular law hai jisme wo har saal double hota hai aap ka, uh, rate of change, that's where that applies, right? Ke do saal, teen saal, chaar saal baad uski cost kya reh jayegi, technology kis point ke upar hogi, aur us point ke upar wo aisa nahi hoga ke yaar maine ek tasveer banayi toh uski value bahut hogi. Mere liye, it's more like ke if I create a photo today and someone takes that photo and puts it on his YouTube video, and that YouTube video is monetized, toh raato mein usko bewaqofon ki tarah ek copyright strike bhejoom ya YouTube identify kare ke yaar ye tasveer kahan se use hui hai aur wo real-time pe us monetization ka ek chunk uthaye aur in royalty mujhe bhej de. That's the world that I see as a content creator, and that is a world that is only enabled through NFT, and that is real value generation. It's only a matter of ke aap ne us computing ko kis tareeqe se overcome karna hai, but that is going to happen. And so the way that we see how value gets generated today, based on how we see money being, being moved, is going to radically change over the next three, four years, um, definitely over the next decade, and therefore, it's very important, life mein kabhi bhi karein ya na karein, maine pehle is se opposite baat bhi boli, ab main is se opposite baat bol raha hoon ke just because bubble has burst, ab time hai samjhein. Invest na karein, again investment advice nahi hai, samajhna shuru karein. This is the future. The future of the world is going to be created over the next five years. The ones who hop on to it, the ones who hop on to the AI, the blockchain, the digital finance, the AR and VR space, will be not just, um, relevant, but also be ahead of the curve and at the top of the food chain, maybe a couple of decades from now in 2040. And so therefore, ye conversation karne ka maqsad yahi tha. It's about time. Um, duniya aap ke gird tabaah hoti nazar aa rahi hai, uh, but actually us tabaah hui hui duniya se ek nayi duniya emerge karni hai aur wo duniya digital honi hai. So, uh, brush up on that, understand that, uh, hopefully, you'll reap the rewards. But anyways, I'm gonna wrap this up now. Guys, thank you so much for watching. Agar aap ko ye episode pasand aayi, apne doston yaaron ke saath zaroor share kijiyega. YouTube wale like ka button dabayenge, engagement badhegi, zyada logon tak hamari conversation pahunchegi. Audio platforms wale subscribe ka button dabayenge, aane wali episodes ke aap ko notification milegi. Neeche aap ko ek Stripe ka link milega jisme if you are from anywhere across the world, uh, you can support us, uh, in creating and being, A, being independent and, B, in creating this content. You can check that out. Iske saath saath, uh, yahan par kahin par EasyPaisa, JazzCash, Sadapay aa raha hoga, if you'd like to support the channel, we accept anything from one rupee to as much as you'd like. It's the thought that counts. Aur shayad isi ke saath hum Binance ka wallet bhi daal dein in the future, uh, ke crypto boys humein aake support karna chahte hain. I'm sure there is a possibility that they'll be able to do that as well if I can put out a wallet link.

You can put that out now. It works. It works just fine.

Awesome. So, so, so we'll do that as well. Uh, but anyways, uh, I would love to hear your comments on what the future of the world with Web 3.0, blockchain, and all these technologies look like in the comment section below. But anyways, this was Muzamil Hasan Zaidi. You were watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in the next one.