Thought Behind Things · Dec 5, 2025 · 2:26:42
AI won't take your job. Someone who uses it will.
From selling water tanks in Karachi to a bootstrapped AI company doing $25 million a year, Ahmed Abubakar's founding story.
with Ahmed Abubakar
14 min read
A random idea, a viral trailer, and a tool nobody knew was Pakistani
Muzamil Hasan opened the episode, recorded for Thought Behind Things’s collaboration series with Endeavor Pakistan, with a demonstration rather than a question. Two days before recording, his brother, a cybersecurity engineer in the US with no art background and no connection to Pakistan, had made an AI-generated trailer imagining a world where the Mughal Empire never fell. It had gone semi-viral on YouTube. When Muzamil mentioned he was about to interview a founder in Islamabad, his brother told him about the tool he had used to make it: Imagine Art. He had no idea it was built in Pakistan.
“Mere liye badi fascinating baat thi,” Muzamil said, describing the moment he realized someone entirely outside the industry, with only an idea and no capital or training, now had a real shot at building his own creative universe using a tool built a few hundred miles from where Muzamil was sitting. He called the guest waiting across the table the founder and CEO of vyro.ai, Ahmed Abubakar, and said that of the more than twenty episodes already recorded that season, this was, in his words, “hamari season ki sabse mazedaar aur sabse powerful story,” the most interesting and most powerful story of the season.
The boy who sold water tanks in Karachi
Ahmed Abubakar’s story does not start in a garage or a dorm room. It starts on a rooftop in a village near Sargodha, where he used to hide from a bus driver because he did not have the fare, and later on the back of his father’s Suzuki, filling small water tanks at Surjani Town to sell across Gulistan-e-Johar. He was thirteen.
His father drove a taxi and, when that stopped working, switched to selling water door to door. Ahmed asked to come along. “Main na Abu Paani wala aur mukhtalif flats mein ja ke naam janaab shuru hua hoon,” he said, describing how he wrote “Ahmed, the water seller” on flats around the neighborhood and started taking orders directly from residents. It became his first lesson in what he later called marketing: showing up, communicating well, and being reliable enough that people called him back.
His mother died when he was in his first year of college, shortly after a last conversation in which she asked him to find her a verse in the Quran and prayed for him to get into NED, Karachi’s oldest technical university. He failed that first year. He repeated it, studying in an empty neighborhood park from seven in the morning, and turned a 2.5 GPA into a 3.94 by his final year at NED, where he studied computer systems networking and telecommunications.
Muzamil Hasan, hosting the conversation, stopped to name what that arc actually represented. “Agar main bahane banane baithoon na is kahani mein har bahana hai,” he said, “you know, mere saath to itni tragedy ho gayi, mere paas paise nahi hain, main middle class se aaya hua hoon, mere connections nahi hain, mera exposure nahi hai. But aapne us saari cheez ko prove wrong kiya.” Every excuse a person could reach for was available to Ahmed Abubakar, Muzamil said, and none of them stuck.
Three brothers, one room, and a viral background changer
After NED, Ahmed Abubakar joined Cybernet, then Afiniti, then in 2016 started pushing his younger brothers, Zain and Abdullah, toward computer science at NUST. He funded their first tuition payments from his own salary; they later won a Fulbright-funded scholarship. By 2019, all three were experimenting nights and weekends out of a small NUST research lab, testing machine learning models on cheap edge devices.
Their first serious idea, a mirror that would change a customer’s hair color in real time inside a salon, went nowhere. So they pivoted to something simpler: a background-changer photo app, modeled on what a Vietnamese team was already doing well. “Agar aap innovate nahi kar sakte, bahut achha, aap please bahut achhe ko copy kar lo,” Ahmed Abubakar said. “Aap jab usko copy karoge, you will be able to make better ways by sometime.” The app went unexpectedly viral in India after they added a feature letting users swap in Paris backdrops, and it crossed $50,000 in monthly recurring revenue during Covid, while all three brothers were still crammed into one small house in Islamabad.
Ahmed Abubakar remembered the first real payday from years earlier, the one that made the later number feel possible at all: selling a water tank for 70 rupees, two tanks for 140. “Mujhe ghar yaad aaya tha jab ghar pohanche,” he said, “to I was super happy, ke hum ab ghar mein khush reh sakte hain.” Muzamil pressed him on the psychological jump between that memory and a five-figure monthly number landing in an account for the first time, calling it “a phenomenal story of breaking glass ceilings and not having mental barriers.”
From ad-funded apps to a Google-recognized brand
The background changer was followed by an object-remover app, then several more, all funded by Google AdSense rather than subscriptions. In 2021, Google emailed the vyro.ai team directly, inviting a partnership after noticing how well their apps were performing. By 2022, Ahmed Abubakar and his brother Abdullah were flown to Singapore as one of Google’s top 50 developers.
That trip changed the scale of their ambition. “Pehla, Covid time ke andar mujhe yaad hai ke hum log likh rahe hote the ke pehle din hum $10 per day pe kaise jayenge,” Ahmed Abubakar said. “Ab hum Singapore mein baith ke yeh soch rahe hain ke yaar hum kis tarah se lakh dollar per month pe kaise jayenge.” When ChatGPT’s release reshaped what customers expected from AI products in late 2022, the team built their own text-to-image model, Imagine 3.1, and launched Imagine Art. Within one quarter it was competing with Midjourney and Canva for a top-three spot on Android’s art and design charts, and the team shifted the whole business from ad revenue to subscriptions.
By Ahmed Abubakar’s account in this conversation, vyro.ai is on track to close this year near $25 million in annual recurring revenue, with roughly 150 people in Pakistan and another 10 to 12 working internationally, serving a product he says has crossed 150 million downloads.
Foundational models are the operating system. We are the apps.
Much of the middle of the conversation is a debate about where value actually sits in the AI stack. Two years earlier, Ahmed Abubakar and Muzamil Hasan had argued about whether “wrapper” companies built on top of foundational models would survive. This time, Ahmed Abubakar returned to the argument with a clearer frame: foundational model companies like OpenAI have effectively built the operating system layer, and the businesses built on top of them are the apps, the actual usable experience most customers want.
“Jo humne is industry ko start kiya, ab alhamdulillah hamare paanch saal ka itna massive experience ho gaya hai ke aapne sirf model ke upar nahi play out karna,” he said. “You have to give an application layer experience.” He pointed to Sora and other model providers gradually opening public APIs as evidence that even the biggest labs now depend on the application layer to reach customers, rather than trying to serve them directly.
Muzamil pushed on the harder question sitting underneath that comfort: whether any AI company, wrapper or foundational, will still exist in fifteen years, given how fast the underlying economics of the industry are shifting. Ahmed Abubakar’s answer leaned on proximity rather than prediction: staying so close to the frontier, watching every model release, every price change, every new capability, that the team can adapt before a shift becomes a threat. “Humne apne aap ko itna zyada penetrate kiya hua hai is culture mein,” he said, “although my team is in Islamabad, we work like hum valley ke andar hi baithe hain.”
Muzamil raised the industry’s mood swing directly: two years earlier, the dominant fear was that foundational models would eat every application built on top of them. Now the dominant narrative had flipped, with commentators calling the entire AI buildout a bubble, comparing it to 1998-era internet overvaluation, and citing OpenAI’s reported multi-dollar spend for every dollar of revenue it collects from customers. Muzamil framed his own read of the moment carefully: AI is probably in a bubble the same way the internet was in 1998, overvalued and due for a correction, but that does not mean the underlying technology is not the future. The real risk for any founder, he argued, is not the correction itself, it is getting knocked out of the game before it arrives. “Ek chhakka marna toh bada asaan hai,” he said, “lekin darmiyan mein jo sabse zyada badi cheez hai woh yeh hai ke is bubble ke andar out nahi hona. Khelte rehna hai, test match ki tarah khelna hai.”
Ahmed Abubakar’s answer leaned on speed and closeness to the frontier rather than a prediction about timing. He described spending recent weeks in San Francisco meeting ByteDance’s team, who told him their video and image models had so far trained on a fraction of the content available to them, meaning Chinese labs still have significant unrealized capability. His conclusion was that no one, including the best-funded labs, actually knows which direction the market moves next, and that the founders who survive are the ones checking constantly rather than committing to a fixed roadmap. “Kisi ke paas koi answer nahi hai,” he said, pointing to conversations with executives at companies like Klarna as evidence that even mature, well-resourced businesses are improvising in real time rather than following a known playbook.
Profitable without funding, and raising anyway
Vyro.ai has never taken outside money. Ahmed Abubakar said the company is EBITDA positive, built entirely on subscription revenue, and had to build its own systems to manage the gap between what a subscription costs a customer and what the underlying model inference actually costs the business, capping usage the way ChatGPT does rather than losing money per user.
That discipline is now colliding with a different kind of ambition. Vyro.ai opened a San Francisco office last month, and Ahmed Abubakar has made three trips to the US this year meeting venture capitalists, because the brand he wants to build, positioned against Canva and Figma rather than regional competitors, requires a kind of talent and credibility that bootstrapping alone will not buy. “Aapka jo brand hai, bahut bada part brand hai,” he said. “With fund, you will be able to make a great brand. Yeh brand local ecosystem ka nahi hai, yeh ek value-based brand banana hai.”
Investors pushing back on a consumer-only product have already redirected the roadmap: vyro.ai is launching team plans, single sign-on, and SOC 2 compliance this quarter, aimed at the marketing agencies and businesses that Ahmed Abubakar says already make up its highest-paying customer segment.
Talent is an open market, not loyalty
Asked directly about retention, Ahmed Abubakar rejected the framing that Pakistani founders often use when engineers leave for international jobs. “Talent open market hai na, capitalism hai,” he said. “Koi yeh thodi hai ki loyalty-shoyalty kuch nahi hota jab tak pet nahi bhara hota.” He argued the real question is not how to guilt people into staying, but what model gives an engineer a reason to believe that time spent at the company pays off later.
Vyro.ai has recently completed a company valuation, a prerequisite for setting up a formal stock plan, and is opening an employee stock ownership pool for the first time, alongside plans to bring senior engineers who have worked in the US onto an advisory structure. Ahmed Abubakar also described operating with the lean team structures he saw firsthand while raising in the US, arguing that smaller, faster teams grow companies faster than large ones.
He credited part of that thinking to conversations with the founders behind Cloudways and Gaditek, a Karachi-founded hosting and web-services group whose brothers Ahmed Abubakar described as informal mentors. “Attitude of learning right, aap apne aap ko hamesha is tarah portray karein ki aapko kuch nahi aata,” he said, describing what he took from those calls, and noted their teams now collaborate directly on shared AI and churn-reduction work through Mixpanel. Ahmed Abubakar said vyro.ai is weighing a second international office, likely in the UAE, partly because Gaditek already operates there and the time zone overlaps far more cleanly with Islamabad than San Francisco does.
AI won’t take your job. Someone who uses it will.
On the future of creative work, Ahmed Abubakar’s position was specific: content production volume is rising because AI is lowering the cost of making things, not because it is replacing the people who make them. A shopkeeper who once needed to hire a graphic designer for a logo can now do it directly. A creator who once needed a small team of visual designers can run a faceless channel alone.
“Jobs replace AI nahi kar raha,” he said. “Jobs replace ho rahi hain by someone who knows AI.” Muzamil built directly on the point: the person doing the jingle work is not disappearing, but they are increasingly using an AI tool to do it, meaning the replacement is not human-to-machine but human-to-more-capable-human. Ahmed Abubakar agreed and pushed it further, arguing that within five years, millions of Pakistanis could plug into global services work simply by learning one tool well enough to serve ten small businesses at once, rather than waiting for one employer to hire them.
The real bottleneck is process, not the model
The sharpest technical argument in the conversation came late, when Ahmed Abubakar turned his own recent detour into songwriting into a case study. After writing a song for his late mother and releasing it, he described the frustration of using Suno to generate music quickly, only to find every result technically clean and emotionally empty. “Woh jo soul nahi hai,” he said, describing what was missing. “Ab mujhe wohi masla ho gaya jo pehle tha. I need to know something about something to be able to create something powerful.”
He extended that into a broader theory of why most AI creative tools underdeliver: they map the technical steps of a craft while skipping the part that actually took a professional years to learn, extracting the right information from a client before ever touching the tool. He described the difference between a designer who asks “what do you want?” and one who interrogates a client’s philosophy and audience before designing anything. “Woh client management ka aspect abhi tak tools mein nahi aa pa raha,” he said. “Mujhe us consumer se genius tarike se information extract karni hai taake main usko relevant product nikaal ke de sakoon.” His prediction is that the next generation of AI tools will not just generate content, they will interview the user the way a skilled professional would, before ever producing an output.
Education is the greatest equalizer
Closing the conversation, Muzamil Hasan asked Ahmed Abubakar what he would tell a young Pakistani with no connections, no capital, and no clear direction, given everything he had seen change in the industry over five years. Ahmed Abubakar’s answer returned to where the conversation started: his father, who never had a formal education and worked nights setting up a cart outside wedding halls, and a family that had nothing to hand down except the insistence that his brothers finish their degrees.
“Sabse important, everyone knows ke education is the enabler, is the basic necessity of every individual,” he said. He laid out what he called three requirements in sequence: education first, then a vision worth working toward, then the discipline to put in the hours. “Pain is one,” he said. “Ke yaar, education lein, khwab rakhein aur effort karein usko achieve karne ke liye.”
Muzamil closed the episode by turning the message toward students and early-career professionals directly, arguing that the value of Ahmed Abubakar’s story is not the destination but the refusal, at every stage, to treat a lack of resources as a reason to stop.
Full transcript
Salam-o-alaikum khawateen-o-hazraat, welcome back to another episode of Thought Behind Things. Jaisa ke aapko pata hai hamari aaj kal series chal rahi hai with Endeavor Pakistan, jahan par hum Pakistan ki 50 most exciting startup/businesses ko explore kar rahe hain. Before I move forward, Endeavor is a great, phenomenal community all over the world, jahan par bahut saare duniya ke unicorns, venture capitalists, aur you know, some of the top people working in the startup and business domain, woh inka hissa hain. And without taking any money, without taking any equity, woh jo hai woh different founders ko all over the world, particularly in developing and emerging markets, woh help aur support karte hain to go from, you know, a great sort of, uh, fast scaling, fast growing company to billion dollar unicorns. Aisi companies jinka global impact ho. Aur ismein bahut saare Endeavor ke Pakistan se bhi entrepreneurs hain. Globally bhi Pakistani aise hain jo ke Endeavor ke entrepreneurs hain in different countries, but beyond Pakistanis as well, they help you connect with a lot of unicorns, they help you learn from them. Similar aapki domain mein jo different countries mein log hain unko woh connect karte hain. So if you are a big business or a fast growing startup, definitely check out Endeavor, neeche link hai. You can find out more about them. Saath hi before I move forward, mujhe pata hai kaafi logon ka attention span bada kam hota hai, jiski wajah se humne ek shorts ka, ek clips ka ek channel banaya hai, yahan par kahin par uski link bhi aa rahi hogi. So you can join that as well. Usmein jo har podcast, do ghante ki podcast mein jo sabse zyada important, powerful 8 se 10 minute ki jo baat hui hoti hai, woh hum wahan par upload karte hain. So you can actually get a summary of the most important aspect of any conversation over there. Channel ko like zaroor kariye ga, mujhe bada bura lagta hai yeh bolte hue, lekin you know, unfortunately YouTube ka algorithm aisa hai ke agar hamari yeh conversations jo ke hum badi mehnat se lekar aa rahe hain aapke paas, bade khubsurat qisam ke heere, aur khaskar aaj ki jo aap conversation sunenge to aapko dimagh phat jayega ke aisa heera Pakistan mein kya kar raha hai. But aisi khubsurat qisam ke heere hum aapke liye lekar aa rahe hain, so that you actually are able to see all of them and also jitna zyada hamara subscriber count badhega, utna aur logon tak yeh conversation pahunchegi. To channel ko subscribe zaroor kariye ga aur video ko like zaroor kariye ga. But aaj ki conversation ki taraf chalte hain. Yeh jo conversation hai mere hisab se, main waise nahi keh raha, meri 20 episodes aa chuki hain, maine kisi aur pe nahi bola. Mere hisab se yeh hamari season ki sabse mazedaar aur sabse powerful story hai. Acha interestingly main cha raha tha ke yeh conversation hamari season ka starter bhi bane, lekin woh unfortunate almiya aisa hua, badi kahani hai iske peeche ke woh record nahi ho saki, jo hamare founder aur CEO sahab hain jo aaj aaye hue hain, woh actually aaj se 2 saal pehle bhi hamare paas aaye the aur us time ke upar kuch takneeki wujuhaat ki wajah se woh episode release nahi ho saki. Lekin woh Allah taala karna aisa hua ke us time ke upar woh bade early stage ke upar the, ek nayi industry thi aur us time ke upar shayad Pakistanion ko itni samajh bhi na aati. Do saal, zahir hai kyunke us time aa chuke the, main inko regularly follow karta raha hoon. Mashallah se they have grown phenomenally well aur ek aisi industry mein jo ke bilkul fresh hai. Pakistan mein generally consider yeh kiya jata hai ke Pakistan bahut koi purane zamane ki, jab duniya bahut 10 saal aage ja chuki hoti hai tab Pakistan us, un cheezon pe kaam kar raha hota hai. Lekin aaj ki jo hamari startup hai, it is working in the AI domain, generative AI space, jo jiske baare mein aap subah shaam sun bhi rahe hain. Aapne Twitter pe bhi dekha hoga ke ji woh image ke, video ke, sound ke, voice ke, songs ke different different models aa chuke hain, uske upar different tools ban chuke hain aur ab log jo hain keh rahe hain ke AI jo hai woh sab change kar dega. To woh jo tools hain, woh kahan bana raha hai, kaun bana raha hai, yeh jo cutting edge jo aaj kal AI ka boom chal raha hai, uske andar ek Pakistani company ne aaj se ghaliban, correct me if I am wrong, but aaj se 5 saal pehle you know ek tool ke upar kaam karna shuru kiya and at this point in time, jo meri understanding hai, they are doing over 15 million dollars in annual revenue, with over 150 people working in Pakistan. Majority of them, I believe in NUST mein woh baith ke jo hai woh you know young engineers, smart kids jo ke world class cutting edge kaam kar rahe hain. It's a phenomenal story aur us conversation ko start karne se bilkul pehle main aapko actually ek real world uski application bhi bataunga, dikhaunga, jo ke you know aapko thoda sa context degi. But nonetheless, this is a conversation with the Vairo founder and CEO Ahmed Abubakar on TBT, Islamabad studio season 5.
Ahmed bhai, salam-o-alaikum. Thank you so much for joining us.
Walaikum salam Muzamil, hope you are doing good. Long time.
Yes, long time indeed. Finally we made this happen. Multiple times yeh woh hui, phir you know reschedule ho gayi. But I am really, really glad you are finally here. I want to know more about you. I want to know more about your early life, how you sort of started this company with your brothers by the way. All of that origin story. But usse pehle main chahunga Ahmed bhai main aapko ek choti si video dikhaun aur main apni audience ko bhi ek choti si video dikhaun. Iska jo background hai woh yeh hai ke main actually podcast meri schedule hui hui thi, usse do ek din pehle main apne bhai se baat kar raha tha. Woh jo hain woh you know he is 40 years old, 43 years old. Woh jo hai woh tech mein hi hote hain, cyber security ki taraf hote hain. Pichle takreeban 20 saal se US ke andar hain. Koi unka Pakistan se connection nahi hai. Woh AI aur generative AI mein bade interested hain. Aaj kal woh apne haath saaf kar rahe hote hain, creativity nikal rahe hote hain. To unhone ek video banayi jo ke YouTube ke upar badi sort of viral bhi ho gayi, uske neeche bahut saare comments bhi generate hue aur woh video ka concept yeh tha ke ji, Mughal agar jo hai woh aaj tak zinda hote, yani ke woh empire na tabah hua hota, to ek sort of imagine kiya unhone ke duniya kaisi hogi. And I want you guys to quickly see it. It's you know very simply done, ek creative idea tha, ek thought thi unki jisko unhone convert kiya through a tool. Inka koi art ka background nahi hai, koi creativity ka background nahi hai. But just wanted to show you guys a video and then we will come to the conversation. Aur mazedaar baat yeh hai ke do din pehle main unko bata raha tha meri podcast hai to us pe unhone mujhe bataya ke yaar main yeh tool use kar raha hoon, Imagine Art, jo ke unko pata hi nahi tha ke Pakistan mein bana hua hai. So mere liye badi fascinating baat thi ke yaar yahan par someone who is completely disconnected, he is using this tool aur woh mujhe bata rahe hain ke yaar yeh bada zabardast tool hai aur bahut jo hai na cutting edge aur main iske upar laga hoon pichle 6, 8 mahine se aur maine phir jab unko bataya ke yeh Pakistan se develop ho raha hai aur main jaanta hoon unke founder ko to unka he was his mind was blown and I think your mind will be blown equally as well. Let me just quickly put up the video.
So this was the video. Bahut iska quickly agar main aapko iska ek woh de sakun, yeh puri ki puri video AI se generated hai, sound, visuals, characters aur bahut saare unhone different you know experiments karte rahe hain, but yahan par he was able to come up with a creative thought jo ke unke liye interesting thi aur unhone usko upload kiya and then a lot of other people found it interesting as well and a lot of people messaged and now he is actually in the process of converting this into a full fledged trailer with dialogues and everything and then eventually taking it into a series. To mujhe first hand nazar aaya ke kis tarike se democratize ho raha hai, you know ke aap creative arts jo ke ek aisa banda jo ke ideas bahut saare the unke paas, lekin na access to capital tha, na access to resources tha. Now using AI, he now has a real shot ke woh ek maze ki story, ek maze ki universe build kar sake, creative universe build kar sake aur for a Pakistani audience at a fragment of the cost. It was absolutely phenomenal real world jab mujhe nazar aaya uska woh. We will talk a lot more about that, but I want to just start off Ahmed bhai, I want to understand aapne apni early life kahan pe guzari, education kahan se li, what compelled you to be sitting in Islamabad and creating you know world class products like this?
Correct. Thank you so much Muzamil first of all aur jo aapne video dikhayi hai, isse mujhe realize hua ke yaar how you can imagine ke ek product duniya bhar mein kis tarah se use ho raha hai. And badi maze ki baat yeh hai ke hum imagine ke baare mein baad mein baat karenge but 50% of our revenue only coming from United States, right? Of Imagine Art. To you can imagine ke yeh kitna bada usne wahan pe space create kar liya hai. So, paidaish hum behan bhaiyon ki saalon ki Karachi se hai aur bahut saari ek life stories connect karti hain to Islamabad tak pahunchne ke liye. Aur jo cheezein yaad hain usmein yeh hai ke bahut chote the hum around 2000 tak around jab main 7, 8 saal ka tha. To us time mere sabse chote bhai Abdullah who is the CTO right now, to uski paidaish hoti hai aur to doctor ammi ko kehte hain ke unki tabiyat kharab ho jati hai Karachi mein, kis unko jo hai na environment change karne ke liye hum gaon ki taraf you know move karna padta hai, which is like hamara gaon jo hai Shahpur aur Sargodha ke paas ek hai. Badi khubsurat si ek jagah hai Karnan ke naam se woh gaon hai hamara. To hum wahan chale jate hain aur walid sahab aur bade bhai Karachi mein hi hain. To yeh woh time hai jab meri 1 aur 2 class chal rahi thi aur ek Karachi ka bacha jisne 8 saal Karachi ki Urdu speaking lifestyle mein guzara hai jab woh wahan jata hai to wahan mujhe badi challenges hote hain, wahan mujhe abhi bhi yaad hai ke school ke zamane mein early years mein woh kehte hain ji Karachi wale aa gaye hain. To Urdu hamari badi behtar hoti thi to Punjab mein jo hai woh thoda sa us cheez ka tha ke yaar yeh Karachi wala to mujhe abhi bhi mere teacher yaad hain woh kaha karte the. Aur to phir wahan se kuch saal 3, 4 saal ke time pe humne maine wahan education hasil ki aur phir hum 2005 mein wapas Karachi chale gaye. Jo kuch memories yaad padti hain, mujhe lagta hai ke Allah taala ka bahut shukr hai hum sab pe ke bahut tough life ke woh days the jo Karachi mein humne dekhe hain. Is tarah ke the ke bahut door kabhi kabhar gaon se lakdiyan leke jana ho mujhe ya you know ghar ki kuch basic necessities mein bada tha ghar mein. To 8, 9 saal ka bacha you know different gaon ja ke weekend pe kuch lakdiyan aur is tarah ki cheezein main laya karta tha aur mujhe yeh bhi yaad hai usmein ke kai baar aisa hota tha ke mere paas paise nahi hote the ek gaon se dusre jaane ke liye apne se. To chhat ke upar main chup ke baithta tha ke yaar koi you know you know woh na bole paise kahan hain tumhare paas right. To kai baar ek do baar aisa hua ke usne na woh driver started knowing me ke yaar yeh banda jo hai na bacha jo hai na aksar aa jata hai. To usne mujhe raaste mein utaar diya right. To woh mujhe yaad hai ke mid takreeban raaste mein utara aur maghrib ho rahi thi, main kis tarah se wahan gaya. To wahan se mujhe kuch lagta hai ke ek life mein tough humne stages dekhna shuru kar di. Ammi ki tabiyat kharab rehti thi, abu Karachi mein hote the aur main bada tha aur yeh sab cheezein take care mujhe karni hoti thi. Lekin Alhamdulillah phir hum 2005 mein wapas Karachi chale gaye. Ab jab main Karachi jata hoon, realize hoti hai takreeban 12 saal ka main hota hoon aur school start kiya dobara Karachi mein, ek achi mujhe purane dost dobara mile, ek achi wahan pe life start ho gayi. To 2005 se 6 ke beech mein mujhe realize hota hai ke walid sahab taxi driver hain aur do teen taxi thi abu ki, aksar chalti nahi thi right. To jab chalti nahi thi to abu ke ek dost the to unhone ek din bola ke main father name is Rafiq, bola Muhammad Rafiq tum yeh kaam karo yaar tum yeh na taxiyon se niklo main tumhe koi ek ID deta hoon business ka ke paani ki gaadi chala lo Karachi mein. Acha to abu abu gaadi ek do bechte hain aur woh ek Suzuki hum buy karte hain. Ab jab woh le lete hain to mujhe yaad hai ke pehle din abu jo hai na tankiyan gaadi ke andar to main bada fascinate ho raha tha ke yeh kya hai, abu se main poochta hoon kya hai. To phir abu kehte hain ke haan yaar yeh paani ka system main start karne laga hoon to maine kaha abu mujhe na aapke saath karna hai right. Mujhe ghar pe nahi baithna. I don't know yeh kya ek cheez mere zehen mein 13 saal ka takreeban main tha aur jab abu ne yeh shauq dekha to bola theek hai. To phir yeh hua ke main ahista ahista abu gaadi chalate the aur main abu ke saath baith jata tha aur hum Surab Goth se paani ki tankiyan choti choti hoti thi woh bharte the aur mukhtalif ilaqon mein paani supply karne jate the. Acha ismein phir yeh hota hai ke jab hum ek sardiyan aa jati hain to paani ki supply demand bilkul nahi thi aur mujhe yaad hai ke initial days mein abu thode relax mode mein hote the, main nahi abu main ja raha hoon aur maine na apna naam likh ke Ahmed paani wala aur mukhtalif flats mein ja ke na main janaab shuru hua hoon. 2000 matlab takreeban ek do saal maine bada marketing ki right. To wahan se meri pehla stage of marketing concept samajh aaya ke main mukhtalif gharon mein ja ke aunty jab bhi aapko paani ki zaroorat ho uncle jab bhi mujhe aap contact kar rahe hain main aapko jald se jald paani de dunga right. Aur to Gulistan-e-Johar mein hum yeh cheez jab start karte hain to kuch bhi orders nahi hote aur phir mujhe yaad hai ke suddenly itne order aane lag rahe hote hain ke yaar because main shayad bahut acha communicate kar leta tha logon se aur woh mujhe kai baar kehte bhi the ke yaar tum padhte kyun nahi ho, tum yeh tum yeh mere abu ko kehte the yeh padha likha bacha lag raha hai aap isko yeh line mein kyun? To nahi ji iska shauq apna hai yeh woh karke. So, you weren't you weren't going to school at this time, you were just focusing on the business. So, school jata tha lekin focus mera saara yahi hota tha. Like second school ki chutti hui ek 1:30 baje, bahut normal school private Summit Educational System Gulshan-e-Iqbal mein school tha. To jaise hi chutti hui I was like yaar bas mujhe jana hai, abu ko main phone kar leta tha aur main pahunch jata tha. Ek din kya hua jo ke meri abhi tak memory mein yaad hai, 2006 ki mere khayal se baat hogi ke ab main ghar gaya hoon, mere khayal se paper the woh khatam hue, main ghar gaya aur maine foran apna leke nikal gaya, bus thi, Surab Goth jana tha. To ek expected point hota tha jahan se paani bharte the wahan pe main pahunch gaya aur mujhe wahan pata chala abu nahi hai, phone nahi the us zamane mein aur abu wahan nahi hai to main second thought nahi put ki usse main bahut aage highway motorway ki taraf main nikal gaya just to find abu ke kahan pe honge. Khair wahan pe mujhe nazar aaye, abu was like ke yaar tum kaise wahan se ghar se Surab Goth Surab Goth se tum wahan kaise aa gaye to maine kaha abu bas waise hi main aapko dhoond raha tha main ghar pe kya karta. To tab se mehnat aur lagan ek ek start ho gaya mujhe samajh aur of course aapko nahi pata chal raha hota jab tak aap aage ja ke peeche ke dots connect nahi kar rahe hote. To khair woh karte rahe aur 2007-8 mein matric aa gaya 8-9 ke andar. Jab matric ke papers aaye to I was like very blank. Mujhe kuch bhi nahi karna aa raha tha aur unfortunately jo ek ek cheating ka system hota hai thode bahut papers maine waise nikale. Ab jab waise nikale to papers to aage B grade aa gaya. To yahan pe main 67 percentage matric mein aa gayi hai. Ab is time mein mere jo behan bhai the especially Zain aur Abdullah jo mere co-founders bhi hain woh bade ho rahe the aur walida ki tabiyat 2008 mein bahut zyada kharab ho gayi. Ab jab woh kharab hui to main first year ke andar enter ho chuka tha, matric se meri transition ho gayi thi aur jab main first year mein enter ho chuka hoon aur padh raha hoon to ammi ko suddenly hum hospital Jinnah Hospital mein ammi ko admit kiya, ammi gayi wahan pe aur mujhe yaad hai ke 15-20 din woh wahin rahi aur lekin main apni padhai mein masroof ho gaya. Before ammi went to the hospital, ek discussion hui, maine ammi ammi called me once, bahut religious khatoon thin to mujhe kehti hain ke beta mujhe Quran Pak nikal ke dein, maine nikal ke de to woh kuch surat unko dhundni thi, maine unko dhund ke di. And when ammi ko kaha mere liye dua karein ke na mujhe NED jana hai right. Ab yeh ammi kehti hain ke yaar NED tumne jana hai, yeh kya hai? Maine kaha ammi bechari saadi si thin to maine kaha ammi ek technical university hai maine wahan ja ke padhna hai. So she just prayed for me. Yeh just meri last conversation unke saath hui and then she went to the hospital aur woh bahut bimar hui aur unki death ho gayi. Ab unki jab death hoti hai to main us din bhi it's very very you know emotional thing in that way ke us shaam ko main coaching mein padh raha tha aur 22 December ko 2008 ko to mujhe ek sudden feel aata hai ke yaar there is something lost right. Mujhe samajh nahi aa raha aur main class se na teacher ko bolta hoon I am going out right. Main class se chala jata hoon aur main jab class se jata hoon to I started feeling crying automatically. To mujhe kuch mehsoos hota hai ke jaise mere sar se na ek saya sa uth raha hai, I am just losing a lot matlab mujhe nahi pata chalta. To koi phone nahi the, kuch nahi the, khair main ghar gaya aur bhai ne phone kiya ke aap foran hospital aa jao. I it made sense ke kuch hua hai right. Khair us tarah phir walida ki death hui aur phir hum unko dafnane gaye aur phir came back. Ab jab main wapas aata hoon to padhai ka mere andar shauq aur junoon kar gaya ke yaar ab kuch karna hai. Ab main un dino jab coaching jata tha first year Karachi mein jo coaching mein jab main padh raha hoon to mujhe realize ho raha hai ke yaar main sahi focus nahi kar pa raha hoon because massive loss was that right, ammi ka. Paper aa gaye, paper mein bhi mujhe yaad hai ke chemistry ka paper hai aur main kuch cheez bhoola to mujhe samajh nahi aaya, I started crying. I left the paper. Ab jab yeh situation hai, matric B grade hai, first year mein bhi koi chance nahi hai, paper kharab hue hain aur bilkul aam sa Gulzar-e-Hijri College, B grade ke logon ka wahan hota hai. To first year guzar gaya. Ab jab second year start hua, second year samajh le ke first year ka last paper diya maine aur second year ke pehle din main Urdu Bazaar Karachi gaya, boards maine saare courses pakad liye, saari theoretical notes leke ikathe karke ab main padhne shuru ho gaya. Abhi coaching bhi nahi start hui and everyone like yeh tum itna jaldi kyun? Maine kaha nahi yaar kuch karna hai aur coaching jab second year mein start kiye to main bahut pehle bahut focus ho ke gaya. Acha ab us time meri maths ki situation yeh hai ke mujhe LCM lena nahi aata ke 3/2 + 4 likha hoga na to main kyunki base nahi base nahi thi, bachpan se business mein involved tha. To maine kaha yaar ab main kaise isko na kar sakoon, lekin Alhamdulillah kuch do teen ache dost banaye aur maine subah 7 baje park pahunch jata tha. Ab jab main park pahunch raha hoon to koshish kar raha hoon ek khali mohalle ke beech mein jo park hote hain Karachi mein wahan baith ke main padh raha hoon subah se lekar dopahar tak, phir wahin namaz padhi. Yahan pe ek bahut important cheez hai jo main I would like to share ke mujhe ek Hazrat Ali ka call kisi ne bataya ke jo matlab aap jab bhi life mein kisi cheez ko pana chahte hain to puri taqat se uska ho jaye ya phir apni zaat mein ek aisi khubi paida kar lein ke woh cheez aapki ho jaye. To maine kaha yaar ke bahut padhna hai right, mujhe kuch nahi pata aur main jab coaching ja raha tha to mujhe sense ho raha tha ke jo A1 grade wale log the Karachi mein ek aapko pata hai Sindh board ka ek system hota hai A1 grade aur B grade mein bada difference hai. To maine unko competition dena start kar diya in any way ke yaar main aap se behtar marks lane ki koshish karunga, maths, physics, chemistry and like first year ka result aata hai mujhe yaad hai second year mein hum log coaching baithe the to sab ke A1 grade aaye hue the unke jo mera B grade tha. Main ghar gaya aur mujhe woh din yaad hai, I used to listen music a lot, woh ek alag story hai, we will talk about that. To main headphones laga ke bhaga ghar se ke yaar kyun, kyun mera B grade aaya hai? Abhi main matric mein bhi ab sab kuch kho chuka hoon right. Us time pe father ke saath business mein loss ho gaya, when I lost matlab main business se jab hata to abu ne abu se matlab business mein ups and down aa jate hain woh woh chala gaya. Ab bilkul scratch, kuch bhi nahi hai right. Ab main bahut focus, phir ache dost ek do bane, unke saath
karte karte karte maine second year mein bahut effort ki. Hota yeh tha ki ek badi jo important cheez hai jo students ke liye main yahan pe highlight karna chahta hoon ki main jab raat ko 12 baje 11 baje so raha hota tha to main agle din ka pura time table banata tha aur main aakhir mein jab usmein yeh hota tha ki maine char ghante yeh padhna hai, teen ghante yeh padhna hai, do ghante raat 12 baje ke kareeb usko main sign karta tha aur main likhta tha apna hi sign leta tha Ahmed ka aur jab main likhta tha ki yaar agar main usmein 10 12 cheezon mein se agar ek cheez reh jaati thi to maine ek aad baar ek aad baar apne aap se jhoot bola ki yaar khair hai tick kar do. Lekin that picked my mind ki Ahmed agar tum apne aap se jhoot bol rahe ho to tum kitni badi galti kar rahe ho. Khair isi mein ek badi important cheez yeh bhi hui ki that's again very you know dramatic thing ki aksar dost ikathe ho jaate the ghoomne ke liye. Yaar tum bilkul change ho gaye ho Ahmed kya scene hai? Maine kaha nahi yaar mujhe bas padhna hai. To one day my friend you know aaya aur gusse mein yaar tum kyun nahi milte kya scene hai? To maine kaha yaar badi ek ajeeb si maine dramatic ya poetic line kahi. Maine kaha yaar woh kehta hai baarish ka mausam hai chalte hain kahin na. To maine kaha yaar nahi main ja nahi sakta kyunki aaj yeh jo baarish hai na ismein tum enjoy kar lo. Kal main ek aisa aadmi banunga ki dhoop mujh pe baarish barsayegi. So yeh mere zehen mein ek cheez ban gayi ki yaar nahi yeh jo yeh jo abhi hai na tum is abhi is jagah pe enjoy nahi kar sakte ho. Aur phir Alhamdulillah second year ka paper diye and I remember 81 percentage aayi aur puri family bahut khush. Bade bhai ne mujhe hamesha motivate kiya. Ab first year second year ki percentage again 74 ban tha NED mein nahi ho sakta tha. Phir maine kaha ki ab kya karoon? Sab ja rahe the universities. Maine kaha nahi I have to repeat. Maine apna pura ek saal dobara se wahi effort ki aur uske baad mera dobara jab maine first year dobara repeat ki to I made a A1 grade in in first year right. Usmein bhi meri English thodi weak thi kyunki English mein maine sentences bilkul nahi samajh paata tha shuru se aur uski wajah se meri percentage English mein kam ho gayi warna English ke alawa meri like 89 90 ke kareeb percentage banti thi jo main bahut achhe college department mein NED mein chala jaata. To khair isi time mein A1 grade pe phir mujhe NED se maine telecommunications and computer science ko maine major pick kiya aur wahan jab main gaya to mujhe realize hua ki waqai jo meri effort thi char maine jo do saal jo balki teen saal in totality maine wahan pe lagaye hain uska mujhe fayda yeh nazar aaya ki it was like much much better environment right. To main school ke baad direct ek aise institute mein gaya jo Karachi ka top technical university hai. So this is how I ended up at NED. NED ke pehle saal thoda kam padha thoda kam padha aur GP meri aa gayi 2.5 right. To maine kaha yaar Ahmed yeh kuch galat ho raha hai right. Phir I started making very good friends and they were very kind to you know matlab unhone mujhe sikhaya phir main karte karte kyunki ek bahut mushkil hota hai Muzamil un logon ke liye jin bachon ki school nahi hai right. You can imagine ki school hi nahi tha. Bahut basic si cheezein ki hui thi lekin yaqeen tha ki jab bhi koi papers aate the padh leta tha. Tab se mujhe phir woh NED ke andar bhi chaar saal library ko maine pakda. To pehle saal 2.5 aur final year mein I ended up with 3.94 GP right. To maine kaafi improve kiya un saalon ke andar specifically 3.94. Ji last year ke andar particular maine 3.94 ka maine aggregated liya right. Aur computer science is a tough and NED by the way is a is a main bhi recently dekha tha sorry main aapki baat kaat raha hoon. It's a NED is a remarkable institution. I feel like it's not celebrated enough. Kyunki abhi do din pehle ki khabar hai woh NED ke ek aapke former graduate hain jinki 2 billion dollars ki company ka exit hua hai. Um jo main abhi US mein aaj kal dekh raha tha Pakistanis jinke bade exits hue hain to us pe sar-e-fehrist in fact shayad mujhe NED ke alawa koi bhi nahi mila jo ki jitni bhi billion dollar exits hue hain woh saare former NED graduates hain. It's a remarkable institution and wahan pe 3.94 lena is quite quite a thing. So NED ki jo history by the way yeh hai ki Pakistan ka sabse purana technical institute jo tha yeh Parsis ne banaya tha right aur again Nadir Shah, Duleep Singh, Shah. To yeh I think Pakistan ke jo initial years ke log the woh log mere khayal se jab Pakistan se ja rahe the to yeh jagah unhone unko donate ki thi aur again wahi government university hai lekin main aapko bata nahi sakta ki jo padhai ka ragda aur aapko ek ek hota hai na hard work sikhaya jaata hai wahan pe to yeh yeh ek cheez jo mujhe lagta hai ki as a nation humein hard work ka jo ek element hai na is university mein aapko itna sikhaya jaata hai samjhaya jaata hai. Uske andar bhi kuch badi important cheezein again ki chaar saal ke andar padhte hue maine tuitions ko continue rakha aur ek business ka bachpan se hi tha to chaar saal mein maine you know koi jo mauqa milta tha main business kar leta tha uske andar bhi. Lekin I tried to maine salary apni you know university fees ko maine usi teaching ke experience ke saath maine karte karte kar liya. Ab yeh 2015 complete ho gaya. 16 ka start hai. Ab so hota yeh hai ki meri badi sister hain she she married in Islamabad aur Islamabad aane ka jo ek bahut bada reason woh yahi banta hai ki unki tabiyat kaafi kharab ho jaati hai and she called Abu ki aap na please main tabiyat kharab hai aap aa jayein. To puri family mere alawa aur bade bhai ke alawa we were in Karachi aur woh idhar aa jaate hain. 16 ke andar she got diagnosed with a brain cancer aur uski wajah se unki phir meri badi behen ki death ho jaati hai. She was like a mother. Ammi ke jaane ke baad aath saal unhone humein bahut sikhaya aur bahut samjhaya. Especially mere chhote bhai Zain Abdullah jo aaj co-founders hain Vairo ke. I think the best one of the best people in Pakistan and in the global market. Unko unhone behen ne bahut sikhaya aur shuru se hi woh teaching bhi karti thi aur ghar ke mamlaat bhi saare chalati thi. To is wajah se phir Abu log yahan pe aa gaye. Main degree le li hai aur I am just looking for internships around. To main apne khandan ka waise pehla ya dusra engineer keh le tha jo is tarah padh raha tha. Ab 16 hota hai main degree telecommunications ki market aur matlab aur networks phir maine CCNA ki ek international certification le li thi just to get the job wagera ho jaaye. Lekin tough ho raha tha. Phir Telenor mein maine kuch in time internship ki. Uske baad ek pehli job lagi Cybernet mein as a network customer network wala jo ek ek role hota hai jismein we were you know measuring ki ji kisi ka internet down hota tha kisi bhi bank ka to humein call aa jaati thi. Maine start wahan se liya 2016 mein. Ek mahina kaam kiya to mere bahut saare jo NED ke achhe dost the they were going to Affinity right. Us time ki Pakistan ki sabse best company aap keh sakte hain AI mein wahi thi for sure. Aur maine kaha yaar mujhe bhi jaana hai aur to maine pehla test diya to fail ho gaya. Test bada unka reasoning advanced maths wala tha to mujhe main I couldn't clear that right. Phir yeh chaar ek mahine mein us test ki preparation mein aur Affinity ko maine aim kiya ki maine yahi jaana hai aur phir apni job hai phir uske saath saath mein woh struggle karte karte I ended up at Affinity. Bahut achha start hua. Ab 16 se 20 yeh chaar saal hain. Jab mujhe AI ka experience samajh aaya, ek multinational company ka aspect samajh aaya ki yaar duniya mein kya kuch ho raha hai. Pehle main sochta tha ki ek company bade bade servers pade hote honge yeh woh aur main Karachi ki sabse I think elite business building mein main kaam kar raha tha aur to main wahan gaya to meri na ek soch aur kis tarah se practical unicorn business Affinity was operating I think us waqt ek sawa billion dollar ki company thi us waqt right. Aur again the great mentor wahan pe hum jab Ziya Chishti ko dekhte hain he have done great work there. To company badi solid 600 logon ki company hai. 16 mein mujhe pehla Dubai jaane ka mauqa mila hum wahan gaye aur pura ek grand humne puri you know celebration ki Affinity ki. Is tarah karte karte humne yeh hua. Ab 16 17 18 jab Zain Abdullah mere bhai first year second year Islamabad mein the aur main Karachi mein tha. Ab main unko consistently call kar raha hoon aur main bol raha hoon ki yaar computer science karni hai aapne aur yeh maths physics chemistry aapne jo na to Zain ka yeh hota hai ki ek aad saal uska clear nahi hua tha university ke andar then he repeated balki woh mere saath Karachi bhi aaya ki yaar Karachi maine usse kaha chalo idhar nahi ho raha NUST mein ya FAST mein tum Karachi aa jao NED. Lekin woh kehta hai nahi bhai NED phir woh aaya uska hua bhi se usne kaha no bro I I will waste my one year kyunki jeans wahi thi ki yaar nahi nahi NUST jaana hai ya FAST jaana hai. To usne phir bahut mehnat karta tha bahut Zain in ne phir ek saal repeat kiya aur to isne repeat. Main ek quick pause yahan par le sakoon? Sorry aapka flow main tod raha hoon. Aapke bhaiyon ne apna high school kahan se kiya tha idhar Islamabad se? Right. To Zain went to G9 Islamabad mein hi aur Abdullah ka mujhe mere khayal se college yaad nahi but it's somewhere in the similar Islamabad vicinity mein hi tha. Model college ya jo Federal Boys College. Dono ne Federal Board se padha hai but Abdullah ke college ka mujhe idea nahi hai. I see. And dusra mujhe yeh batayein ki I am trying to also understand the the fiscal situation at this time right jo aapka paison ka kyunki ek time tha jab aapka woh ek business chal raha hai water ka it's very clear ki cash flow ko itna koi loot nahi machi hui right so aapne even apni university bhi aapne public school se ki hai ab father aur jo ki aapke us waqt primary business chala bhi rahe honge I am assuming to woh Islamabad unko aana pad raha hai kya woh unhone yahan par aake koi business wagera shuru kiya? Main thoda sa yeh samajhna chaah raha hoon ki family zahir hai it's it's a big shift to to move aur usmein aapne bachon ko padhana itne school in to phir bhi Islamabad mein at least yeh achha hai ki even government colleges jo hain woh bade achhe quality ke mil jaate hain to cost us tarah se nahi hoti but it's an expensive city to live in. Aur phir uske baad ab bhai keh rahe hain ki yaar humne FAST ya NUST jaana hai aur saath saath ki jaye to iska matlab hai ki ek bada cost factor aane waala hai. To woh kya business se ho pa raha tha ya woh aapne socha aap jo aap aur aapke bade bhai ab job pe lag gaye the jiski wajah se ab aap logon ne kaha ki yaar don't worry about the the cost to hum bear kar lenge. Correct. To bade bhai ne jo phir business resume kiya even Abu yahan pe aa chuke the puri family aa gayi thi to bade bhai wahin hote the main aur bhai. To bhai unhein wahi paani ke kaam ko phir resume back kara aur wahi chal raha tha right. To lekin particularly jab you know us business ke saath saath ups and down hain usmein kaafi zyada to jab meri job lagi to it was a good salary at that time right. To woh ek achha system hamara chalna shuru ho ho gaya. Aur Zain Abdullah ki jo particular education thi woh badi Alhamdulillah is tarah ki baat hai ki government college hai free ho gaya aur jab NUST mein admission hota hai uski bhi ek marzi ki story hai ki Abdullah wanted to go to mechanical engineering. To maine usko bola nahi kyunki he was always into cars ki yaar dynamics samajhna hai. He is mashallah most technical in founders as well right. To mujhe kehta hai bro nahi nahi to main mujhe yaad hai main Karachi se aaya maine kaha nahi tumne NUST mein computer science lena hai. To woh khair computer science liya aur Zain ko waise hi computer science mein interest tha. Abu jab idhar aaye to Abu started doing a cylinder business right jo aap gas supply ka kaam keh lein on a very small very small scale right. To is tarah hua aur Abdullah ka jab computer science mein hota hai aur ab yeh you know pehli fees to mujhe mujhe yaad padta hai I think maine apni balki haan Affinity ka jab main 2016 mein interview dene ja raha tha mujhe abhi bhi yaad hai Ramadan tha aur main to maine jo interview jinse liya unko maine kaha sir ke unhone pucha why you want to join Affinity wagera kya reasons honge? To maine kaha one of the reason is ki main apne bhaiyon ko achhi university bhejna chahta hoon jo shayad main nahi attend kar saka right. Mera bhi NUST ka dream tha lekin woh nahi hua. To that was one of the reason. To Alhamdulillah phir job achhi thi to inke initial years jo the humne woh us pe jama karaye fees advance wagera humne ki. Achha yeh hua ki Abdullah aur Zain ko maine shuru se hi computer science ka kaha aur phir unhone free scholarship pe apply kar diya NUST come base. Kyunki kyunki parents job nahi karte the Abu ka business nahi chalta tha to Abdullah Zain ko Alhamdulillah ek saal ke baad woh full bright scholarship mil gayi aur isse bhi badi mazey ki ek baat hai ki jab mili inko to koi someone in Canada I don't know aur woh kitna kind aadmi hai ki usko jab yeh pata chala ki Vairo ke jo founders hain unko us unki diye hue paison se education mili hai to you cannot imagine I got to know from I think from someone from director ki yaar woh itna khush hua tha ki in do bachon ko jo unhone fees di usne unhone aaj itna bada ek business bana liya. To yeh ek achha hua aur first pehle mahine ke andar I think to main unko padhai ka bahut zyada hamara shuru se hi bada sync tha. Even NUST jaane se pehle jo do mahine mile na unko humne kaha yaar coaching start kar lete hain. To KIPS ka bada business hai aur bhi bahut saare coaching the humne kaha yaar kuch business kar lete hain. To Abdullah aur Zain padhne mein bahut achhe the to do mahine unhone ghar pe hi teaching ki aur usse bade log aur woh jab unhone kaha ki ab hum khatam kar rahe hain because of the university to unke ammi abba aa gaye nahi yaar aap please you know khatam na karein aap padhate rahein. To pehle mahine Abdullah aur hum log sync the ki yaar humne kuch karna hai vision tha ki Pakistan se kuch karna hai right aur jo you know ek ek barriers hain ki yeh nahi ho sakta hamare mulk se us cheez ke upar hum bahut shuru se hi clear the right. To Abdullah called me one day bro ki na mujhe Python samajh aa gayi hai. Maine kaha wah ji. To uska jo vision uska spark to ab hum jo hai na research lab mein le rahe hain Tukal ek lab hai SEECS ke andar hum wahan ja rahe hain right. To maine kaha zabardast hai. Ab mujhe isi parallel mein kyunki coaching bhi khatam kar chuke the humne coaching nahi ab humne kaha tha hum AI mein kuch software mein kuch karte hain right. Do options hote hain jab aap karna hota hai ek software hai ek services ka business hai ya product hai right. Ab kyunki main job kar raha tha unhone kaha yaar kya karein kya karein I got to know somehow ki Pakistan mein apps industry bahut badi hai. Aur by the way yeh ek badi surprising baat hai kal hi main Google ke ek event pe bhi tha to I'll cover that as well ki we got to know ki Pakistan ki jo app industry hai woh even India se bhi badi hai gaming aur app mila ke. Yes jahan pe yes jo global aap keh lein ki Pakistan product aur games banata hai uski downloads duniya bhar mein bahut zyada hain. India ka zyada tar jo apps woh hain woh local ecosystem pe banti hain. Pakistan zyada tar export aur global utilities games mein banata hai. To jab mujhe yeh pata chala to maine kaha this is something we should you know matlab is tarah mujhe pata chala ki koi pata chala ki ek app hai kisi bande ki chhoti si hai aur woh 4000 dollar per day ka banata hai. Yani mahine ka lakh dollar saal. Crazy. Maine kaha yaar yeh kaise possible hai woh bhi Rawalpindi Islamabad se baith ke. To phir maine usi organization mein Zain Abdullah ki CV forward ki ki yaar please internship pe rakh le NUST ke bade kaabil bache hain. You know nahi milti bada mushkil hota hai aur to yeh ek message hai for those people jinko internship nahi milti woh pareshan na hon woh apna raasta khud nikaalein aur milta hai InshaAllah. To unka wahan nahi hua. Isi beech mein main Karachi se baith ke different logon ko connect karta raha in apps industry LinkedIn, Facebook yaar batao batao. I think 100 ke baad kisi ek ne shayad respond kiya he was very kind Nasir bhai unhone mujhe bola ki yaar aap product banayein campaigns hum bana lenge kyunki kyunki bada shuru mein jo hai na scale karne ke liye aapko paid content campaigns chalani padti hain. To campaigns seekhi udhar Abdullah aur Zain idhar se jo hai woh product banane lag gaye. Phir apni hi salary se maine achha sa ek laptop Zain Abdullah ko training ke liye machine learning training ke liye bada huge ek laptop chahiye tha woh leke humne liya. Ek do log recruit kar liye. Yeh 2019 ki baat chal rahi hai. To main ek din aata hoon aur Karachi se is vision ke saath ki do teen mahine ab main Karachi se Islamabad mein rahunga aur yahan pe baith ke hum office wagera to Zain Abdullah to ja rahe the idhar hi TIC lab ke andar hi aur kuch na kuch Abdullah jo tha aur Zain woh particularly kuch avatar sort of content train kar rahe the ki yaar hum ek cartoonify ki koi app bana sakte hain yeh woh aur woh ek bilkul basic training aur edge device pe hum test kar rahe the. Abdullah bata raha tha bro yeh ho gaya yeh ho gaya yeh nahi hua maine kaha achha theek hai. Ab jis din main pehle din pahuncha raat mein hum chai ki hotel pe baithe hue hain G13 mein aur Abdullah kehta hai bro humne na in yeh jo hum hair colors ke upar humne model successful bana liye to hoga kya aap kisi bhi saloon jayenge hum ek mirror deploy karenge jismein aap simple color ka button dabayenge aur aapke real time camera pe aapke colors change ho rahe honge. Maine kaha yaar feasible nahi lag raha. Kaun Pakistan mein aapko paise dega 100 500 1000 rupaye karne ke yeh mirrors deploy karne mujhe lag raha tha ki yeh nonsense approach hogi. To mujhe abhi bhi yaad hai 11 baje mere khayal se hum raat ko baithe aur 2 baj gaye. Lad rahe hain nahi nahi yeh hona chahiye maine kaha yaar yeh mujhe nahi lagta hoga. Phir Alhamdulillah we got to point ki nahi yaar hum software app banate hain. Ab jab software app banate hain to ek bahut important point jo log apne career mein kuch bhi karna chahte hain jab as a qaum ya as an individual ya as a teen people kuch bhi agar aap innovate nahi kar sakte na bahut achha aap please bahut achhe ko copy kar lo. Aap jab usko copy karoge you will be able to make better ways by sometime. Kyunki bahut saare log jab kuch bana rahe hote hain na to woh itna bada sochte hain ki woh nahi ban paata right. To ek cheez wahan pe meri mujhe learning lagti hai ki humne do teen apps industry dekhi Vietnam se jo bahut achha kaam kar rahi thi. Simple app thi background changer ki. Humne phir pehli app yeh background changer banana shuru ki aur teen chaar log the aur phir Covid aa gaya to logon ne kaha ki humne Lahore jaana hai. Kuch Lahore se student the NUST ke hi. Abdullah Zain second year mein hain aur unhone NUST ke masters ke logon ke saath recruit karke internship chal rahi hai. Abhi kuch paise nahi aa rahe hum laga rahe hain right. Main morning job karta tha subah 7 se 4 aur mujhe yaad hai main 4:30 baje apne TIC office mein raat 11 1 2 baje tak hum baith ke kuch na kuch plan karte rehte the. Achha khair Covid aa gaya. Jab Covid aaya to aur mauqa achha mila ki meri job jo on-site Islamabad mein chal rahi thi ya Karachi mein mujhe Karachi se aana pad gaya kyunki woh Covid bahut heavy vibe start ho gayi thi. Ab teenon bhai hain Islamabad mein ek chhote se ghar mein hum log baithe hue hain aur app bana rahe hain right. Kuch idea nahi samajh aa raha jo app release karein kuch samajh nahi aur koi sikhane wala bhi nahi hai right. To karte karte koi GPT nahi hai kuch nahi hai hum ek cheez samajh aa gayi ki yaar humein product behtar banana hai. Ads implementation start ki Google ads lagaya, AdMob lagaya. Pehli product Alhamdulillah 8 10 iteration karte karte karte saari saari raat sometime baithe rehte the aur release kar rahe hain. To yeh release karte the main uska store uski ads earning Google ads main dekh raha hota tha Zain aur Abdullah. Abdullah particular technology aur Zain product hum teenon milke ek ghar ke andar baith ke yeh kaam kar rahe. Covid time ke andar hi takreeban Muzamil bhai chaar ek mahine ke andar andar humein realize hota hai ki yaar product India mein organic bahut chali jaati hai right. Kyunki humne kiya kya uske andar Google search API integrate kar di ki aap photo app yeh thi simple ki aap photo denge apni ya camera se lenge aur aap chahte hain koi uska background change. Pehle solid color aate the yeh woh phir humne usmein Google daal diya usmein Paris Paris ki different photos aap laga sakte hain. Woh product India mein viral ho gayi. Humne ab phir uski kuch techniques maine start ki ki reviews jab karein to app ka naam dete the by Vairo yeh woh karte karte mujhe yaad hai ki pehli product hamari 50,000 dollar MRR ke upar monthly revenue pe chali gayi. Ab yeh time hai yaar ki hum soch rahe hain ab kya karein right. Covid chal raha hai. Achha yahan par main aapko pause karaunga. Theek hai? Woh jo ladka jo jaake part one mein kehta hai ki aunty paani chahiye to main aapko de dunga kitna hi hoga 200 rupaye ka paani hoga. Yeah. Us ladke ko jab woh pehli dafa number nazar aaya ki 50,000 dollar jo hai na woh account mein aake drop hoga to main sirf woh feeling samajhna chahta hoon kyunki you know I mean it's a it's a phenomenal story up until right now of of of breaking glass ceilings and not having mental barriers because woh mujhe yaad hai ek Flappy Bird ek game aayi thi agar aapko yaad ho. Yep yep. Aur woh bahut zyada viral ho gayi aur uske upar bahut zyada AdSense ka revenue wagera aaya aur saara kuch hua aur uska itna zyada usne paise generate kiye ki woh jo uska founder tha woh crazy ho gaya tha thoda sa kyunki actual mein money when it comes so much to people are do not are specially people who have had it tough. to woh poori zindagi unhone guzari hoti hai ke jab unke paas ek dum se aata hai to they don't know what to do with it. Yeh jo ek ek milestone main is wajah se pooch raha hoon because us point se leke aage le jana jo hai na woh bhi bada ek ek technically ek success story hai ke yaar bada fit paisa ban gaya. Lekin woh bhi bade moments hote hain insaan ke ke insaan ki decision making ke yaar ab aa gaya hai to kya main baith jaunga ke yaar ab to maine kar liya na bhai I have made it. Ya woh kehta hai ke okay if I have made it till here, where else can I go, right? And that's I feel like where a long term vision and investment and all of that mentality comes in. So I'd be curious ke us time ke upar aapki kya feeling thi and and and how did you then deal with the idea ke okay we are finally at a point where we are able to make $50,000 a month.
Right, right. I think bahut zabardast kuch agar dots connect karte hain you know, ke waqai woh 70 rupay ki tanki jab pehli baar bechi thi mujhe yaad hai aur do tanki 140 rupay aur mujhe ghar yaad aaya tha jab ghar pohanche to I was super happy right. Ke hum ab ghar mein khush reh sakte hain paise thode bahut aane lag rahe hain right. Aur phir definitely even with salary aap kuch nahi kar paate you know jo aap ka business ka ek woh taste hota hai right. To definitely pehli payment jab hamari aap keh le ke receive hum karne gaye Western Union mein to ek banda mila usne bola ke yaar aap log teen bhai kaam karte hain aur aapke paas itne paise aa rahe hain to aap koi banda rakh le isse aapka risk mein barkat aayegi right. To that is something one of the pointer jo mujhe lagta hai bahut zaroori tha aur definitely bahut bahut khush hue hum log aur that time I realized ke yaar ab mujhe you know covid chal raha hai mujhe business stable ki taraf ja raha hai hum ek aur app banane lag gaye the. Pehli jo thi background changer thi dusri object remover thi us time Adobe ka ek solution tha ke photo table pe content image ke andar koi object hai aap hatana chahte hain aap usko hata sakte hain. To humne dusri app banane lagi that time I started thinking yaar ab mujhe resign dena chahiye, de dena chahiye. Halanki hum log bahut sochte hain you know Pakistan mindset hota hai ke yaar yeh hoga to kya hoga. To jab maine resign diya to my my VP he was very kind to ask ke yaar aapko hum Canada bhej dete hain aap na jaye. But I was like nahi yaar mujhe and mujhe yaad hai ke subah ke din bhai Zain Abdullah no bro there is no other thought even think aapko sochna bhi nahi hai is pe. Maine kaha yaar of course I am not thinking lekin matlab main soch raha tha ke kitni aapko khushi hoti hai you know kyunki main bachpan se mere andar business ka ek element tha aur ab woh right jagah pe utilize hone ja raha tha. To alhamdulillah you know woh pehli app successful ho gayi 2021 chal raha hai aur humne do teen apps bana li and they were also doing very well kyunki ek cheez aap successful kar lete ho na pattern repeat wohi hota hai wohi design hai wohi technology hai wohi marketing strategy hai aur effort hai right humne do teen log recruit kar liye. 21 ke andar takreeban hum baithe hue the ek din office mein abhi bhi mere khayal se hum H8 NSTP ke andar hum log I think bahut choti si jagah pe 10 logon ki jagah pe I was working aur hota yeh hai ke Google ki taraf se email aati hai. So Google ki team kehti hai ke hey Viro team we are excited to inform you guys that ke aap logon ki product itni achi hai we want to partnership with you right. To itni khushi hui ke yaar now you know our efforts are now getting appreciated on higher level right. To 21 mein humne phir jab Google ke saath woh partnership hui aur I think 22 ke mid tak sahi sab kuch sahi chal raha hai. 6-7 apps ban chuki hain aur all of them are doing good business enough right. 22 ke andar phir Singapore hum jaate hain aur Google Singapore ki taraf se invite aata hai as a I think top 50 developer hum ban chuke the. To jab hum wahan se Abdullah aur main particularly I think fly karke jaate hain to wahan jab hum jaate hain to mujhe abhi bhi yaad hai ke conference ke baad hum na sirf table pe baith ke Abdullah aur main planning kar rahe hote the you know ke yaar ab hum next step kaise le sakte hain. To pehla agar covid time ke andar mujhe yaad hai ke hum log likh rahe hote the ke pehle din hum $10 per day pe kaise jayenge right. Ab hum Singapore mein 2000 I think 22 ke mid 22 ke mid mein baith ke yeh soch rahe hain ke yaar hum kis tarah se lakh dollar per month pe kaise jayenge right. To hamara business scale ho chuka tha 20-25 log aa gaye aur 22 ke end pe yeh badi interesting part hai usse pehle hum choti choti apps bana rahe the. Ab idea aata hai ke yaar ab humein kuch bada banana chahiye. Ab jab bada banana hai to us time GPT ka daur enter ho raha hai aur kyunki woh chat to answers ka platform bana tha kuch bhi likhe answer aa raha tha. To humne kaha yaar hamari to experience hai hi content image aur media ke upar hai to kyun na hum koi product banaye to we started thinking yaar text to image koi product bana lete hain aur 23 ke 22 ke December mein humne Imagine naam se ek product Imagine like kuch bhi aap soche right uska thought behind uska yahi hai. To Imagine banaya aur us time koi API available nahi hai kuch bhi available nahi hai. Ab model banane ke liye humne acha yeh kiya ke Abdullah recruited some international folks from Discord community jo us time stable diffusion ke andar us stability ke upar kaam kar rahe the aur humne pehla apna model Imagine 3.1 banaya jo ke realistic images ke upar tha. Ab isse pehle hamari zyada tar products thi woh edge mobile ke upar deployed thi ab hum soch rahe hain ke yaar hum server kaise banaye kyunki yeh server aur phir scaling aur takreeban 23 ke January February mein model optimize kiya humne usko server pe deploy kiya aur humne usko scaling start kar di. Ab market mein us waqt kuch bhi nahi tha aisa text to image sort of yeh 2023 ka first quarter chal raha hai. Few iterations pehle hum 8-10 apps successful kar chuke hain. Hum Imagine jab live karte hain uski campaigns dekhte hain reviews dekhte hain people humein ek samajh aa gayi ke yaar iska to poora pattern hi US se traffic drive kar raha hai poora Europe poora high level log aur I think hamara woh kuch aisa hua ke quarter first quarter ke andar hum 10x of revenue pe hit kar gaye. To 2022 tak alhamdulillah hum 1 million ARR pe se uth ke hum 2023 ke andar 10 million ARR pe chale gaye. To it was phenomenal story. Phir hum Google mein story gayi I had a chance to speak at different platforms. Android pe hum top 3 art and design balki US ke andar international market mein even Canva ko hum 3-4 mahine ke andar 1-2 agar Canva 1 pe hum second pe kabhi hum pehle pe install mein to product hamari mashallah us waqt top 3 mein chali gayi. Then we realized ke yaar isse pehle jo choti apps ban rahi thi nahi I think this is not the future. Ab humne subscription aur SAS ke business ke andar enter 23 ke mid mein hi jab humne Google Play aur Discord ki hamari badi solid community ban gayi reviews dekh rahe hain to sab yeh keh rahe hain yaar theek hai it's fine but we need a better control. To customer obsession hamare zehen mein tab se start ho gayi yaar customer ke liye product banane aur subscription ka business tha on average customer humein $40 de raha hai let's say to pehle hum ek ads AdSense pe dependent the ab humne kaha yaar nahi let's focus on that kyunki agar woh aap uski customer ki need ko poora karein woh retain karega aur aap grow kar sakte hain month over month quarter over quarter aur phir humne desktop ke upar pehli baar imagine.art register kiya aur mujhe yaad hai 2023 ke mid mein ek hamara NSTP ka kaafi bada office setup ho raha tha usi raat humne woh product live ki aur Stripe ke upar humne usko kyunki poora gateway hi different hai to mujhe yaad hai ke pehle dusre hi din na uske andar ek massive amount of subscription started coming in. Ab web ki marketing bilkul nahi hai bilkul different ek era hai samajh nahi aa raha. Khair alhamdulillah humne uski product market fit ke liye humne Canva se aur mukhtalif companies se jo PMF ke log hote hain ya jo product manager jinhone booking.com wagera ke humne logon ko as a consultant laye phir humne different calls Discord pe samajhna shuru ki models hum improve kar rahe the apne different models pe kaam karte gaye aur 23 ke end tak hamara woh product jo hai desktop ke upar bhi stable ho gaya. To ab woh company jo mobile apps ads pe chala rahi thi ab woh Imagine Art bana rahi hai 2023 ke end pe aur both platforms are doing really well for us till 2023 end.
Fascinating. Yahan par thoda sa rukte hain thoda sa pause lete hain aur breather lete hain. Main audience ko na zara saath saath apni thoughts bhi dena chahta hoon ke what I what I found in this story. It's an it's an as I started it's an incredible story. Um and aapne khud bhi do teen badi achi learnings ki but meri bhi kuch ismein learnings hain. Pehli learning iske andar yeh hai ke jo technical aspect hai na aur jo business aspect hai woh saara kuch hai that notwithstanding uske upar hum definitely aayenge but ek personal aur social aspect hai. Um losing a mother at such a young age is it's an is an extremely tough experience and I cannot even imagine what you what you or your siblings went through. Um mothers jo hain woh ghar banati hain woh define karti hain bachon ki you know sohbat kaisi hogi, ikhlaq kaisa hoga, personality kaisi hogi and um more often than not mothers ki absence ke baad ek dum se ghar ka system ek dum se crumble ho jata hai. Um it is absolutely incredible ke you were able to maybe it was your mother's prayers jo aapne unse karwayi. Alhamdulillah. Ke unki absence mein bhi you were able to in fact not just sustain your direction but actually find your direction really after that because usse pehle aap jo hain woh school mein bhi aage peeche the saara kuch tha. Um and then uske baad phir aapka jo ke even the person who replaced your mother her passing away is a double whammy jiske baad banda acha acha insaan bhi jo hai na woh kehta hai yaar woh to zindagi se chhod hi deta hai na ke yaar koi fayda hi nahi hai. And the reason why I bring this up is because mujhe Pakistan mein na Pakistan mein hum bahut zyada baat karte hain ke talent bahut zyada hai bahut kuch hai sab kuch hai. Jo sabse bada problem mujhe nazar aata hai woh yeh nazar aata hai ke na logon ke andar khwab dekhne ki salahiyat hai aur logon ke andar na apni banayi hui glass ceilings aisi hain jismein woh apni woh jo ek Iqbal ka woh sher hai na ke woh khudi ko buland kar itna wala ke woh apni na khudi ko samajhte hain uska falsafa nahi samajhte woh apni power ko nahi samajhte apne potential ko nahi samajhte. Um and uske falow up ke andar kyunki mera to kaam hai main pichle 4 saal I have spoken to like 470 of the smartest people in Pakistan but I have also seen the feedback and I have seen people woh bas dhoond rahe hote hain ke main is conversation se na kaunsa aisa aspect nikaloon jisko main as an excuse lekar kahoon ke yeh banda is wajah se successful hai because iske paas yeh hai aur main is wajah se successful nahi ho sakta kyunki mera yeh yeh masail hai. And I think what the reason why I love your story is because it's agar main bahane banane baithoon na is kahani mein har bahana hai. You know mere saath to itni tragedy ho gayi mere paas to paise nahi hain main to jo hai na middle class se aaya hua hoon mere to connections nahi hain mere paas to exposure nahi hai mere paas to yeh nahi hai woh nahi hai. But aapne us saari cheez ko prove wrong kiya aur aapne ja karke usko sort out kiya. More importantly jo jo jis cheez ke baare mein main sabse zyada aajkal excited bhi hota hoon pareshan bhi hota hoon passionate bhi hota hoon woh yeh hai ke Pakistan aur Pakistanion ko agar yeh baat samajh aa jaye na bahut masail hain siyasi masail maashi masail samaji masail lekin agar unko yeh baat samajh aa jaye ke education is the greatest equalizer. Yeh woh zamana nahi hai ke kiske paas kitni zameen hai aur us zameen se woh baitha hua hai aur woh system chala raha hai. Yeh woh zamana hai jismein in the age of knowledge and aane wale waqt mein in the age of intelligence aap apni aapki intelligence jo hai woh aapke control mein hai ke aap usko kitna zyada optimize karte hain kitni aap uski value badhate hain aur usko use karke aap kitni value generate karte hain. Woh jo gaon ka seth hai na jo ke 200 ya 2000 acre pe baitha hua hai uski zameen banjar hi padi rahegi agar uske paas intelligence nahi hai aur jo aapke jaisa ek ladka jiske paas koi backing nahi hai koi zameen nahi hai koi running income nahi hai us tarah se business hai theek hai lekin up and down uske hain aur woh bhi ek chota small and medium enterprise business hai woh ja karke just by the sheer um knowledge and education and usko woh use karta hai aur grid ko use karta hai aur woh ja karke itni incredible cheez bana leta hai and I feel like ke yeh jo jo sabse bada agar main message ismein nikalna chahunga na woh yeh nikalna chahunga ke aaj koi bhi bacha baitha keh raha hai woh keh raha hai meri x y z auqat hai main Islamabad mein hoon main Lahore mein hoon Karachi mein hoon Khanewal mein hoon kahin pe bhi hoon yaar agar aap is conversation ko sun rahe hain na iska matlab hai aapke paas internet hai aur agar aapke paas internet hai to aapke paas tools aa rahe hain apne aap ko educate karne ke bhi apne aap ko exposure dene ke bhi apne aap ko optimize karne ke bhi it's not like aapke ghar mein koi bada tha and I'd be curious ke aapki family mein aapne kaha you were the second engineer pichli generation kya bahut badi likhi thi kya padhai likhai jo thi woh you know generationally aa rahi thi ya was there something where you were able to break that barrier and and woh but main usse aage and I'd be curious about your parents education because aapne kaha aapki walida saada khatoon thi to thoda sa agar before I go forward mujhe iske baare mein bata sakein ke what was the education of the older generation parents and their sort of siblings. Correct. Um to abu jo the unhone bhi bilkul nahi padha tha aur Quran Pak ke hafiz hain aur ammi ne bhi education nahi hasil ki jo mujhe abu ne bataya ke jab woh gaon se nikle Karachi to Hyderabad mein rui ki ek factory mein kaam karte the right aur phir woh itna rui ka woh tha woh usse thak ke phir woh Karachi chale gaye Hyderabad se aur I think us time unki shadi nahi hui thi lekin jab woh Karachi gaye to unhone taxi ki uh jo hai ek business start kiya matlab taxi start ki aur Quran Pak padhate the aur bachon ko aur yeh bhi batate the mujhe ke din bhar mein taxi chalata tha aur raat ko main thela lagata tha shadi halls ke samne ke kuch bech sakoon right aur to I think you can imagine right ke no knowledge no education nothing. Like yeh usi Pakistan mein jis Pakistan mein hum humne bahut zyada barriers banaye hue hain humne kaha hai ke thele jo lagata hai uska bacha thodi yeh kar sakta hai yeh kar sakta hai to yeh to nahi kar sakta. Education is that one aspect that can completely aap apne king bane baithe rahe lekin agar aapke andar intellect nahi hai smartness nahi hai to aap aaj is duniya mein aap kuch bhi nahi kar sakte aur aane wali duniya mein to bilkul hi nahi kar sakte. Um ek aur cheez jo mujhe badi mazey ki lagi aapki abhi tak jo conversation hui hai. You've remembered almost everyone that has played a part in your journey. Um aur iske peeche na ek main hamesha yeh baat karta hoon ke insaan ko jo sabse badi cheez break karti hai na woh arrogance aur ego karti hai aur ego ke upar badi falsafa hai 2000 saal se from Greek philosophers to aaj tak ego ki baat karte hain religious philosophy mein bhi ego aati hai ego ka it's not just the way that ego hum dekhte hain but woh ek insaan ki apni ek uh conscious subconscious level ke upar hai. Ego aapko yeh karti hai khas kar ek insaan jo ke confident hota hai na apne shell ke andar ek insaan jo ke apne self awareness rakhta hai sirf woh insaan hai jo ke apni ego ko in check rakh sakta hai aur apni ego ko control kar sakta hai aur woh cheez mujhe aapke andar is tarah se nazar aa rahi hai ke maine bahut saare aise logon se baat ki jinhone bahut difficult time se bahut incredible cheezein banayi lekin kahin na kahin na unka yeh aa raha hota hai ke woh batate hain ke maine kitna zabardast kiya. Aapne main mera dimagh phat gaya jab aapne kaha ke yaar main Western Union gaya hua tha wahan pe mujhe ek sahab mile unhone yeh advice ki jisse mujhe yeh fayda hua. Aapne bataya ke yaar kis tarike se maine scholarship ke upar kis tarah se kisne kya kiya and to be very honest yeh jo jo jo humility aur gratitude aur keeping your ego in check hai yeh itni badi superpower hai jo ke logon ko realize hi nahi hoti logon ko lagta hai ke yaar main jitna kyunki muashra aapko yeh sikhata hai na ke yaar jitna zyada cheekhoge jitna zyada bade aadmi woh to utna bada aadmi consider hoge lekin actual mein long term mein bada aadmi woh nahi hai bada aadmi woh hai jo ke humble hai jo apna kaam pe focus kar raha hai aur ek bada vision rakh raha hai aur apne saath leadership ka taqaza yeh hai ke woh khud bhi grow kar raha hai apne saath ke apne neeche ke logon ko bhi grow kar raha hai aur woh is cheez ko respect karta hai ke yaar meri journey ke andar kin kin logon ne mujhe help aur support kiya and I think that I find that incredible I think yeh badi choti choti ikhlaq ki cheezein hain jo ke hamare naujawanon ko definitely samajhni chahiye. Paisa ban jata hai koi masla nahi hai lekin ikhlaq hai jo ke generational wealth banata hai woh immediate pump and dump nahi aata and I I found that to be to be very interesting and then obviously last cheez jo aapki thi woh woh grid thi ke bahut saare areas ke andar aap exit le sakte the and what I mean by exit is ke agar aap apne self inflicted traumas mein hote hain na aur main aapko bata raha hoon ke I have met people jo ke self inflicted traumas mein hote hain jinko yeh hota hai ke yaar bachpan mein you know kisi monetary reason ki wajah se ya kisi aur wajah se kisi ne mera mazak udaya to maine usko disprove karna hai to usko disprove karne ke liye jo hai ji mujhe bas Corolla woh us ladke ke paas Corolla gaadi thi to mujhe bhi Corolla gaadi chahiye aur woh udhar ja karke aake ruk jate hain woh karta hai karta hai karta hai woh ruk jata hai aap jate hain aap ek app developer ban sakte the pehle aap ek services company bana sakte the phir aap ek app developer ban sakte the lekin aapne constantly dekha ke yaar jaise jaise aap unlock karte gaye to aap agli stage pe jana shuru ho gaye ke yaar nahi what else can I do what else can I do and I think that is phenomenal because jo hamari pichli generation of of leaders and and entrepreneurs jo Pakistan mein baithe hue hain na unhone mujhe unse sirf ek shikwa yeh hai unhone bhi bada acha kaam kiya aur apne time ke hisaab se bada acha kaam lekin unhone exits bahut zyada le liye bahut saare aise bade naam hain jo ke 2-250 300 400 bande ki company bani hui hai unka bas yeh interest hota hai ke yaar yeh company bas chalti rahe mera paisa aata rahe meri achi gaadi rahe mera farmhouse rahe and that's the extent of it. The way that you've been able to convert an early success into a world class success I think it's a phenomenal story and there's a lot to learn about and I'd like to now dive deeper into ke jo aap kaam kar rahe hain aur uske baare mein you know kya what are the aspects where do you see the future. Before I go into that mujhe thoda sa agar bataye is time ke upar what is the current scale of the company aapne 2023 tak mujhe bata diya you know now you've got a product jo ke aapne launch kar di hai subscription ho gayi hain 2 saal usko guzar chuke hain where do you stand right now? Right. To Imagine ko humne phir jab focus kiya ke yaar isko humne bada product ki taraf leke jana hai because hum usse uske baad humne nayi products banana chhod di aur jab hum Imagine ko focus kar rahe hain to we have got to realize ke yaar yeh pehla SAS hai right yeh koi aam web product nahi hai ke aapne simple image generation de di ho customer aayega aur buy kar lega. Phir we started looking at the product at deeper level ke customer flow kaise kar raha hai product ke andar kya kya points hain jispe woh churn kar jata hai kya kya product mein experience ki kami hai onboarding activation pe humne kaafi kaam kiya pichle saal aur ab tak I think uske upar kaafi extensive kaam chal raha hai and overall agar hum business ki baat karein ya product ki baat karein to business alhamdulillah is waqt hum is saal close kar rahe hain up to 25 million dollar is saal ka ARR ke upar. Team 150 logon ki Pakistan mein hai aur global bhi takreeban 10-12 log different kaam kar rahe hote hain. Product ko humne Imagine ko kyunki yeh ek badi massive war hai foundational model companies ne 2025 mein front end pe aa gayi hain API available ho rahi hain to since humne last year tak to kaafi zyada dependency apne image aur models ke upar thi to is saal humein business ko scale karne ka fayda yeh ho raha hai alhamdulillah last year se hum 1. like 250% growth mili hai humein last year se ab tak usmein APIs aur aap keh le ke foundational model companies ka bada kirdar hai kyunki aap video ke andar itna compete nahi kar pa rahe the result ache nahi the retentions kam thi pehle ke models ke andar with you know Google recent models aur aap bahut kuch authentic aur production level content bana rahe hain to Imagine is waqt jaise aapne apne bhai ki video dikhayi usmein ek idea se lekar production level content to yes if someone have any idea to make an basic ad for their e-commerce platform koi kisi ne gana banana hai kisi ne koi you know choti si video banani hai for any project FIB kuch bhi aap karna hai. So you can make right now everything under imagine. So imagine is right now a one stop solution that offers uh image image, video, audio, music, all generations available with our own models and aggregations as well, right? To jo bhi model live hota hai hum foundational model company ke sath early partners hain duniya bhar se. To jo bhi model hota hai sabse pehle hume early access mein milta hai and we do deploy those models wo. Ab hum imagine ko product ki baat baat karein to we are taking it towards a community. Community is gonna live soon jisme aap koi content banayenge, publish karenge aur your content agar bahut achha hota hai to wo top publish mein aa jayega and we gonna reward them like YouTube jaise monetize karte hain aur aap dete hain logon ko. Phir humne uh 100 plus mini apps plan kar rahe hain kyunki social media ke andar kai kai tarah ke har har har hafte kuch learning hai to be honest iske andar industry ke andar. To humne mini apps ko banana shuru kiya ke e-commerce ke andar aap dekhein social media Instagram ke upar kai kai tarah ke video trends aa rahe hain, camera zoom ho raha hai, camera zoom out ho raha hai, pani upar aa raha hai, aag lag rahi hai content ke andar. To hum foundational model ko leke internal jo hamari uh imagine ki team hai wo different workflows bana rahi hai un tamam uh you know ek certain problem ko ya certain trend ko focus karne ke liye. So we are everywhere uh building huge community on imagine. Imagine ke is waqt duniya bhar se 1200 top AI creators partners hain hamare. Aur is saal ka jo sabse bada humne why define kiya ke how to build this imagine art as a global world class content brand, right? Aur sabse hardest part wahi hai by the way building a great brand, right? Aur to uske liye humne phir multiple initiatives liye hain. We have been doing a lot of things. Social media break kar rahe hain, influencers partnership hai, affiliates ke upar bahut ja rahe hain, Rakuten, Impact, Pap, inke upar product available hai. Uh phir humne 1200 plus top creators ko hum uh monthly engage karte hain. They are talking about imagine. Of course, the product is that amazing ke unko wo value nahi milti ya support nahi milti. Phir humne customer success 24/7 setup kiye. AI ke andar aapko bahut bada challenge hota hai, koi subscription le li, kuch aapko you know problem hai, you know one is there to help, right? To humne 24/7 ki ek achi team Pakistan se support kar rahi hai. Not only chat support, balki ab hum call support pe bhi available ho rahe hain. Yeh ho gaya hamara uh uh wo side uh phir hum recently flows ko integrate karne ja rahe hain. Yeh yeh sara ka sara from you know idea to inception bahut saare steps involve hote hain jo aap baar baar prompt ke through solve nahi kar sakte. Uske andar hum workflow ya flow imagine flow bhi uh I think next two weeks jaane wala hai. Uske upar kaam kar rahe hain. Ab last year I got a visa for US aur uske baad mein teen baar US ja chuka hoon aur balki last month I was in uh in US for whole month. I was meeting world class VCs kyunki jis taraf product ko hum leke jaana chaah rahe hain, right, with bootstrap. Alhamdulillah, we have done great, great. That is not possible, right. Brand cannot be make like that, right. To abhi humne recently uh San Francisco mein ek uh you know ek office open kiya hai, chaar paanch log wahan se uh connect hain, kuch Pakistani, kuch international hain. Main khud back and forth uh karta hoon. To uh we are about to raise uh we are in the process of raising. Um to uske andar ek bahut bada concern naturally aata hai ke yeh consumer product hai, right. Abhi B2B ki taraf aap jayenge to kyunki we have been speaking with very high class VCs, right. To unka yeh kehna hai ke aapne isko product ko thoda team plans ya business ki taraf leke jaana hai. To ab hamara aur phir humne jab customer journeys dekhein jo hamare high paid customers hain wo saare ke saare marketing agencies hain, companies hain, business hain jo media content, image, video, audio bahut kuch use kar rahe hain. To ab hum uh I think November ke October October ke end pe hum ek team plans live karne ja rahe hain jisme hum imagine ko complete collaborative experience dene ja rahe hain. To aapki team media mein kuch bana rahi hai, run time pe tag kar sakti hai, space handling ka kaam hoga, projects ban jayenge, uh SSO uh set wo keh lein single sign on honge aur saari SOC 2 security compliance bhi honge. To we have been taking that direction ke ab hum isko consumer and now B2B ki taraf leke jayenge aur wo humein inputs nazar aa rahe hain. By the way, top universities of America, American students are using imagine. It uh usmein Google hai, Oxford ke, Stanford ke students bahut zyada use kar rahe hain. To we have been trying trying every effort to make this product as a one stop shop uh for anything you want to create. Like koi bhi idea aapne image, content, video banani hai, you can go and create on imagine.
Absolutely phenomenal. And just to give some numbers to the people right now, uh you've looked at over 150 million downloads uh over the last five years since you've you've been active. Yeah, it's it's it's close to 200 million uh in world overall install, yes. Right. That's fascinating. You're close to a million people using this daily. Um you have over 2.5 billion images processed and that's what I've gotten from the website. I'm sure wo ab ab mazeed wo ho chuka hoga and there are over 15 products that are live right now. Um this is just absolutely phenomenal. Main thoda sa ab isko wider ki conversation ki taraf leke jaana chahunga industry ko madd-e-nazar rakhte hue aur mukhtalif cheezon ka. Do teen cheezein aapne boli, pehla to um is waqt bahut confusion hai. Jo log industry ka part nahi hain, wo bahar se dekhte hain, wo articles ko padhte hain. Do saal pehle bhi hamari baat hui thi aur us time ke upar awaaz badi farq thi. Us time awaaz yeh thi, wo zahir hai bubble cycle ka naya naya shuru ho raha tha to us time pe awaaz yeh thi ke ji yeh jo foundational model companies jo hain wahi chalengi, baaki to sab kachra hai, sab khatam ho jayega. Aaj awaaz bilkul flip ho chuki hai. Aaj contrarian thought yeh kehti hai ke yeh bahut bada bubble hai aur bubble jo hai uske andar yeh open AIs aur this aur that jo saari ki saari hain jo uh overvalue hui hui hain aur bubble ko bhi samajhna bada zaroori hai kyunki AI ki conversation mein I feel like context dena is waqt bada zaroori hai. Um AI is is similar to 1998 of the internet age, 98, 99 jisme aap definitely yeh claim kar sakte hain ke bubble hai, paisa bahut zyada laga hua hai, overvalue hai aur usne correct bhi hona hai. Lekin AI still is the future just as internet was the future. Aap uski timeline ke upar question mark kar sakte hain lekin aap uske uh jo jo uh jo jo disruption hai uske upar aap I I I haven't seen anyone jo ke uske upar doubt kar raha hai. Uh maximum bhi jo most contrarian thought abhi maine wo uh Dworkish ki podcast abhi koi takreeban last week aayi hai um jispe Andrej hain, ghaliban jo ke bade well respected uh early uh foundational team mein bhi the open AI ke. Unhone bola unhone kaha ke yaar I don't expect AGI to come anywhere in the next 10 years. We're in the age of uh agents. Um to jab pichle do saal pehle hamari baat ho rahi thi us time pe yeh hamari ek thoda sa mukalma bhi hua tha ke yaar foundational versus rapper, rapper to khatam ho jayega, kya fayda hai, kya nahi fayda. Aaj ki duniya ke andar it's all about distribution. So wo yahi keh rahe hain ke yaar theek hai foundational model hoga lekin jab wo ek you know it's it's actually zyada threat to foundational pe aaya hua hai ke jo open AI kuch banata hai agle din DeepSeek usko uska jo hai na wo uh wo kar deta hai aur usko muft mein nikal deta hai aur aap kehte ho ke yaar usne to saara paisa bhi laga liya, fayda kya hua. Jo paisa kama raha hai wo actually jo saamne road block hai jisne actually consumer ke saamne baith ke us sort of cheez ka ek uh uh uh usable format bana diya, wo usko saara paisa mil raha hai, right? And and the way that I see it and I'd love to know your input on that as well. What what these foundational models have done is they've built the operating system layer. They are the they are the Windows and the Mac OS of of that time. Aur uske upar jo jisko aap rapper kehte the bade bure tareeke se wo actually are the apps jo ke ek usable uh uh user experience driven uh aapko ek product de rahe hain aur jahan par wahan par mujhe aapki jo yeh strategy hai jab aap kehte hain ke yaar hum micro apps ki taraf ja rahe hain, usmein bahut zyada sense milti hai because bahut thode log hain jo ke open AI ke chat GPT ko properly istemal bhi kar sakte hain. Majority logon ka ek problem hota hai, wo chahte hain ke wo jayein jaake unko ek achha UI mile, uske andar wo cheezein karein aur peeche AI jo kar rahi hai wo kar rahi hai, unko fascination nahi hai AI se. And wahan par aap one way or the other multiple different nodes ke andar distribution apni block kar lenge jisme kal ko mujhe agar chat GPT se behtar DeepSeek mil raha hai, sasta DeepSeek mil raha hai, main usko use kar lunga, main wo C-Dance aa gaya hai, main aur kisi ko kar lunga. So that's my understanding. Main thoda sa maine bada sawal, kya pata sawal ismein hai bhi ya nahi hai, but I'd love to know your opinion on on everything jo overview is waqt industry ka wo agar aap de sakein mujhe.
Bilkul. I think yahi exactly problem tha uh till last year ke yaar ek bahut bada challenge humein yeh aa raha tha ke jab bhi hum kuch model banate the, right, uski accuracy uh you know mid journey ke caliber ki nahi thi, example, right. To hum kis tarah compete kar payenge, you know? To wo ek bahut bada challenge one. Phir infrastructure handling bahut bada problem tha, right, ke aapko saal ke liye bade expensive uh you know servers rent out karne padte hain aur uske andar bhi you know inferences bade change hote rehte hain. Aap keh lein ke GPUs latest day by day aa rahe hain to kabhi aapne agar purana rent out kar liya, right. Yahan pe ek bahut badi opportunity create hoti hai application layer ki, right, bahut zyada, right. Aur this comes to point I think one of the last years of Steve Jobs, wo bhi jab App Store ke live hote to log sawal usmein se karte hain to wo ek ek ek company ki example dete hain us zamane mein ke ek application hai jo aayi hai aur wo us kisi student ne banayi thi aur wo you know making millions of dollars on that app, right. Aur jab humne is industry ko start kiya to ab alhamdulillah hamare paanch ek saal ka itna massive experience ho gaya hai ke we understand ke yaar aapne sirf aur sirf you know model ke upar nahi play out karna, right. You have to give a an application layer experience, right, jo aapne abhi bilkul baat ki. Uh how foundational model companies jaise Sora ka yeh tha ke wo kabhi bhi public APIs nahi denge, right. Wo sirf unhone kaha tha ke hum sirf jo hai na wo film ke liye you know dedicate kar denge but now they have been giving and they they understand ke market mein demand bahut zyada hai, right. So ek to wo apne level pe compete kar rahe hain, usmein China bahut aage hai. I recently I was in uh SF, I was meeting ByteDance team uh to unke kehte hain ke abhi jo unke research ke mutabiq ke abhi unhone sirf bahut kam percentage pe content pe train kiya hai uh ByteDance ke models ko jisme C Dream waghera bhi aate hain, image ke aur video ke models hain. Ab jab isko China jab aur train karega to yeh accuracy aur aap keh lein content quality, authenticity, reality realistic bahut zyada hone ja raha hai, right. Usse hum jaise developers ko fayda yeh hoga ke yaar theek hai, jo wo challenges the, wo pareshaniyan khatam hain. Ab aapko internal kuch nahi manage karna. Aapne ek experience pe kaam karna hai aur wo jo paanch saal se hum learn kar rahe the na, uska ab humein right fayda yahan pe hone lag raha hai, right. Getting close to customer, yaar wo kar kya raha hai product ke andar. Aur you know yeh jo foundational model companies hoti hain, yeh ek bahut bade generic customer ko solve karti hain, right. Ek generic problem ke customer ko aake simple sa yeh keh lein ke layman customer aata hai, usko kuch bhi generate karna hai wo chala jayega. Isse production level content, uske andar editing, uske andar aap keh lein ke jaise imagine ke andar aaj aapko uh stitching ability mil jayegi, pure editors milenge, right aapko. Uh usse kya hota hai ke customer na sirf image, video bana sakta hai balki usko stitch karke usmein sound daal sakta hai, usko export kar sakta hai, usko share kar sakta hai. To foundational model company ka kabhi yeh problem nahi aur wo yahi hota hai ke uh applications yunhi win karti hain ke ek aur fayda yeh ho raha hai ke jitna zyada humein competition of foundational model mil raha hai, un foundational model ko use karke hum different mini apps create kar pa rahe hain. Helio ke upar ek certain sort of you know mini app bahut achha kaam karti hai, kisi aur model ke upar kuch aur karti hai. To hum ismein phir speed bahut matter karti hai, right. Ke ab aapko realize hoga ke jo foundational model companies hoti hain, naturally wo bahut time leti hain kuch bhi banane ke liye. Main interestingly mid journey uh very very successful bootstrap company, I think entire on earth, right. Uh to usne basically apne 2000 I think 22 ke andar hi mid ke andar unhone discord pe text to image start kar diya tha. Unhone sirf last year jaake uh website apni banayi hai mid journey ki, right. Sochein, right. Aur abhi bhi wo video ko matlab they take a lot of time, right. To jitna company badi hai na, usko challenges yeh hain ke wo banane se pehle hazaar baar sochte hain. Hum koi cheez raat ko banti hai, koi bhi trend aata hai, our team is very powerful, very you know up to the speed, ahead of the curve hum operate karna padta hai. Iske challenges aur hain, but the thing is ke hum in tamam mini apps ko imagine ke tamam use cases ko leke kitna powerful ek experience denge jisse customer aayega and interestingly hum iske andar AI chat dene ja rahe hain jiske andar aapko you know chat ke bhi all models available honge, right. Ismein hum AI search, AI coding daalne wale hain. So you can imagine ke a one platform will do infinite things. To yeh ek hamari USP bhi banti hai aur yeh is waqt is cheez pe koi kaam nahi kar raha. Abhi aate hue abhi aane se pehle main aur Abdullah yahi shaam mein baat kar rahe the yaar ke imagine ke andar competition to for sure hamari field mein bhi bahut zyada hai. But how we gonna be you know segregated from the market, yeh hamari USP kya hogi ke yaar ek to speed hai hamari, ek complete application layer experience, right. Ek ek plug, ek ek point pe design team baith ke kaam kar rahi hai ke yaar kahin customer ko kya experience dein ke you know wo wahan pe wo yeh feel na kare ke yaar that is not something doing my job, right. To everyone will come and say yaar wow. Experience pe hum, speed pe aur ek you know adaptability ke upar bahut tezi se kaam kar rahe hain. One subscription sochein. Aapko AI ka sabse bada masla yeh hai ke aapko har platform ko seekhna padta hai, right. Uska ek learning curve hai. Once you get to you know used to imagine, you don't need to you know go to other platforms. It will serve all of your work, right.
Makes sense. Uh mujhe yeh batayein Ahmed bhai ke um jo is waqt market ke andar and again logon ke liye badi confusion hai to main is wajah se maine pehle hi fursat mein us confusion ko door karne ki koshish ki hai ke wo foundational model companies ko separate karein, wo product companies ko separate karein. Um usmein bhi even foundational it's not like just a rapper, that's my understanding ke ab to jo hai na even foundational jo companies hain usmein log basically unke uh models ko utha ke usko tweak kar rahe hain apne use use case ke hisaab se and they are actually uh I I don't know wo rack systems ke through ho raha hai ya jiske through ho raha hai but they are actually optimizing that and then taking it forward. So for example agar let's say 11 Labs hai ya Suno hai yeh wo hain to unke peeche shayad koi foundational model hi laga hua hoga lekin wo phir apne use case ke liye uh uh uh you know learned and researched and uh wo hai jo aur usmein phir zahir hai ke hazar use cases hain, medical hai, legal hai, they say that aur uske liye optimize products ban rahi hain. Um but yahan par hum yeh bhi dekh rahe hain jo aam bilkul uh uh consumer hai na ya viewer hai, usko is waqt yeh samajh nahi aa rahi ke yaar yeh valuations kya hain, yeh funding kya hai, usmein zahir hai ke agar main usko break down karne ki koshish karta hoon to usmein awaaz to yahi aati hai ke yaar cost of inference bahut zyada hai, cost of training bahut zyada hai. Um ek taraf yeh bhi humein pata lagta hai ke open AI is time ke upar for every I mean they're 12 billion dollars ka revenue hai but for every one dollar that they're taking from the customer, they're actually spending three dollars. So there is a lot of cash burn and that's why awaaz of circular revenue and awaaz of um you know uh bubble bursting bhi aana shuru ho gayi hai ke uh is time ke upar yeh cash burn, infinite cash burn jo hai yeh unsustainable hai. Somewhere down the line it's going to uh choke out. So pehla to main yeh samajhna chahunga ke aapne jis tarah bola ke mujhe funding ab chahiye aur hum aggressively funding fund raising ki taraf ja rahe hain. Where does that money go to eventually? Is that go is that going towards product development? Main thoda sa na economics iski samajhna chahta hoon. Aapka jo is waqt let's say 25 million dollar revenue hai usmein zahir hai ke inference bahut saare models ki hai, uski cost hai, saara kuch hai. Um are you a profitable company at this point in time? Aur are you burning cash one way or the other jo ke again confusing hai because you don't have funding right now. Jo funding aap lana chaah rahe hain, jo bhi valuation hogi, jo bhi usmein price point hoga, us funding ke evaz aap kya apni um uh burn ke liye lana chaah rahe hain ke yaar hum scale badha denge ya aap keh rahe hain ke yaar nahi hum technology teams ko uh bada karenge? Isi ke andar ek mujhe personal uh advantage yeh nazar aati hai ke ke US ke andar jab aap jaate hain aur aap jaake in badi companies ko dekhte hain aur in badi companies mein kaam karne walon ko dekhte hain, khas kar jab Meta ke andar uh recent times ke andar jo hai na wo uh uh compete karna chaah rahe the to 1-1 billion dollars ke compensations ki humne baat suni, right? And kyunki yeh itni nayi aur fresh cheez hai uh ke iske upar jisne thoda sa bhi wo ek LLM engineer jo hai na wo is waqt chaar guna salary le raha hai even aam companies ke andar kyunki is waqt ek daud lagi hui hai. Uh to wahan par Pakistan mein baith ke Pakistani engineer hire karke wo talent aapko kaise mil raha hai aur aapko ek advantage to hai ke cost comparatively aapke consultant ki cost jo bhi ho lekin aapke paas jo local talent hai jisko aap bana rahe hain, wo wahan par aap price point pe at least talent wise achha khel sakte hain. So tell me a bit about the the the the economics of this business. What is the profitability? What is the what are the margins at this point in time? And when you're looking for growth, what sort of money are you looking at and where does that money get deployed?
Correct. Uh so the question is profitability. Yes, we are EBITDA positive or profitable hain, Alhamdulillah. Uh reason being ke subscription based business is always you know gonna add you you know recurrent revenue to your business, right. To hum Lekin usmein wo masla yeh hai na ke while that is true, is waqt AI ke andar mujhe nahi pata ke aapke ke kabhi kabhar aisa bhi hota hai ke yaar maine 25 dollar ki subscription li, actually maine usmein jo inference inference kar kar ke to aap you know actual cost aa rahi hai 75 dollar. Main abhi keh raha hoon ke yaar chalo customer ko rakhne ke liye main 25 kar leta hoon. To is waqt aapki jo cost aa rahi hai versus jo aap revenue le rahe hain, wo aapko eventually profitability deti hai. Right. To uske phir hum yeh jo aap jaise bata rahe hain ke uh aap token zyada consume kar lete hain you know, to uske upar hum model getting sort of concept lagate hain ya aapke certain days ke andar ya 30 days ke baad aapke token overflow bhi nahi karenge. Yeh C GPT bhi kar rahe hain and we have realized kyunki yeh bilkul ek nayi economy hai one. To yes, we are profitable aur bilkul H2H, right. Humne shuru se hi business pe hi focus hai ke humne you know business ko grow karna hai, air of air. Yeh to hard target hi hamare yahi hai, right, one. Uh so funding ki jo distribution hai, usko hum kis tarah se plan kar rahe hain and why is that very important ke uh aapka jo brand hai, bahut bada part brand hai. With with fund, you will be able to make great brand, for sure one. Uh aur yeh brand local ecosystem ka nahi hai, yeh Middle East ka nahi hai, yeh ek value based brand banana hai aapko, right. So that's that's high level target with that fund, right. Aur second uska yeh target hai ke infrastructure pe aapko hit leni padegi. Let's say open AI agar uh on every customer losing let's say 2 dollar, right. Hum yeh nahi karenge. Ho sakta hai hum every customer hum let's say 1 dollar ka acquire kar rahe hain, 1 dollar ki subscription usse le rahe hain, to hum usko 1.1 ki value dein, right. To yeh ek bahut bada part hai jo competitors analyze yeh kar rahe hain ke yaar theek hai aap uh with bootstrap aap yeh cheez nahi kar payenge ke yaar aap customer ko ek experience dein jisme wo above the bar aap usko tokens de rahe hain. Wo bol raha hai wow yaar mera pura kaam ho raha hai, right. Kyunki har model, kuch model jaise hain wo bahut zyada like Sora to ka model ab 12 second ki video ke liye uh 1.2 dollar tak ki wo le raha hai, right, ek model, right, is waqt aur different models ke liye. To hum un sab customers ko ek freedom to create jisme zyada tokens honge, second part brand bahut bada banana hai aur definitely yeh jo jis caliber ka product imagine hai, right, uh believe me jo aapne ismein talent ki bhi baat ki hai, ab tak hum isko bana paaye hain. If you go to product, you would not realize ke yeh Pakistan ke logon ne banaya hai and that's for sure, right. Yeh humne bahut hard reality, bahut hard work, ek ek step pe product team, design team uh and the founders are very engaged ke yaar yeh product kaise banana hai. Lekin isko us level pe le jaane ke liye jahan pe aap kehte hain ke ji uh Canva jahan pahuncha, aaj se you know of course unko bhi badi struggle hai unki bhi. Uh Figma for sure kahan ja rahi hai. To wo ek third part aisa hai ke you you would need and you know, people jo enablers honge right? Design yahan tak pahunch gaya hai, bilkul pahunch gaya hai. B2B expand karna hai. Literally it's very hard. Uh unfortunately jab aapke faces uh Asian faces jab calls pe jaate hain aur aage call pe, you know LinkedIn call pe, and by the way LinkedIn reached out to us, uh kya kehte hain, I think bahut mukhtalif investment banking ki bhi badi high level uh woh reach outs aate hain ki, we want to use imagine right? Toh ek ek element yeh hai ki yaar Pakistan se yeh cheez hona thodi si tough hai right? Ki aap yahan se baith ke ek brand, yahan se baith ke aap kitne log, toh you would need certain C-level people right? Uh usme aap CFO keh le, usme aap design ka head keh le, usme B2B le le, jinse hum seekhe right? Jinhone already billion dollars products bana chuke hain right? Toh yeh third bada part wahan pe jayega and of course uh raising our people talent from here to grow and you know, to move international market, yeh bhi hamara focus hai ki hum logon ko move karein aur you know, they would learn more. Aur talent jitna ab tak hai, alhamdulillah, I think we I I feel that we we have the finest, one of the finest talent in Pakistan. Uh but to reach that level, jahan pe ab saal ka 100-150 million dollar, inshaAllah agle do-teen saal mein jo hamara target hai hum karne ja rahe hain, uske liye you would need such high level people jo enabler hain jinse hum seekhein aur jo jinka vision company ke saath rahe, toh funding will definitely help in that way. Makes sense. Mujhe yeh batayein ki aapne kyunki talent ki baat ki aur aane wale waqt mein agar aap Silicon Valley mein race kar rahe hain toh wahan ka jo business dynamic hai woh ek badi zabardast kitaab hai aaj kal main bhi padh raha hoon, Venture Deal ke naam se aur woh aapko poora batati hai ki how all of this sort of works. Um us uske andar jab aap jaate hain toh ek bada component jo ki Pakistan mein historically kabhi exist nahi kiya, woh ESOP ka hai, right? Ki ji employee ke aapke stock option plans exist karte hain. Pakistan mein jab aap log particularly aap product ki baat karte hain toh aap talent pe kaafi zyada invest karte hain. Jo bhi aap kar lein, aapka woh talent bana banaya aapko market se nahi milega. Toh jab woh chhod ke ja raha hota hai na aapko kisi agli jagah pe toh woh aapke liye ek bada net loss hota hai because aapka naya banda lana, woh saari aapki efficiency aur woh rok deta hai. Iske upar badi ek debate chali hai aur bada discussion bhi hoti hai ki yaar Pakistan mein log aate hain aake uske upar rona shuru ho jaate hain ki talent chhod ke ja raha hai. Mera masla usme yeh hota hai ki yaar talent open market hai na, capitalism hai. Koi yeh thodi hai ki aapne matlab loyalty-shoyalty kuch nahi hota jab tak pet nahi bhara hota. Toh what model can be created so that they actually remain and they actually feel like ki yaar jitna arsa main rukunga woh meri investment jo hai woh mujhe long term pe pay off karegi. Ek tareeqakar aapne bada achha bataya, aapne kaha ki yaar jab hum apne aap ko multinational kar denge toh bahut saare logon ka interest paise se zyada, paisa bhi hota hai lekin paise se zyada unka hota hai ki yaar humein ek safe, secure environment mil jaye, humein exposure mil jaye, humein growth mil jaye. Toh woh eventually ek certain time ke baad agar unka hai ki yaar ek rotational aap yahan se nikal ke ab aap let's say Sweden mein ja rahe hain, Germany mein ja rahe hain, America mein ja rahe hain, Canada mein ja rahe hain toh logon ke liye woh ek interest hota hai. Um saath hi iske andar yeh hota hai ki yaar you know what aapke plan hai, aap aaye ho aaj, aap chaar saal agar company ke paas rukte ho, yeh saara kuch karte ho toh aapke vested stocks hain. Kya aap is tarah ke ESOP plans apne current set of employees ko offer karte hain? Kya aapka plan hai ki aane wale waqt mein aap usko karenge? What mechanisms do you use to retain your talent and compensate them? Um because main yeh bhi nahi kahunga ki yaar aapko bas karna chahiye kyunki aap achhe hain. Eventually aap nahi karenge na toh left-right yeh talent itna powerful develop ho raha hai ki isko har banda todega, isko Middle East bhi todega, isko America bhi todega. Wahan move na bhi karwaye woh remote pe tod lega dollarized. Toh aapko kahin na kahin kuch na kuch unko offer karna padega. Tell me a bit about that.
Yeah, awesome. Very important point, ESOP aur so hamari company jo thi pehle woh uh ek structure mein nahi thi uh lekin we were trying to do that aur ek certain aapko US based company ke andar uh hote hain jiske andar aap ESOP open kar sakte hain right? Uh toh woh recently we have done that aur ESOP ke liye aapko kuch certain pre-requisites hote hain jaise ki valuation wala part hai. Toh I was uh fine fortunately aaj hi is pe baat kar rahe the ki humne uski valuation done karwa li hai and we are about to open ESOP and for sure the people who are already working uh very connected, very you know, aap keh lein aap unke saath din aur raat kaam karte hain, they understand your vision, I think uh achi baat yeh hai ki Pakistan mein jo hamara talent hai woh zyada tar Pakistan mein hop nahi karta right? Aur aur woh zyada tar international market mein jaata hai. Again that is another loss right? Toh uh very abhi humne jo main jab specifically jab mera third round laga US mein aur main realize kiya wahan pe ki US mein log ek bahut lean teams ke andar operate karte hain one right? Uh aur jab lean teams mein karte hain toh aap unko bahut grow fast kar sakte hain right? Um toh we are in in sort of the process ki team leans hain already hamare paas uh and we are raising people very fast fastly right? Unka technical abilities, uh unka experience, uh culture, phenomenal culture we have, I think one of the best and again in Pakistan. Uh toh woh sab cheezein hum kar rahe hain just to make sure our people are uh getting maximum out of the culture for sure uh salaries keh lein ya unka ESOP keh lein toh yes that's in plan aur pool hum zyada bada rakhenge balki uh hum of course jab aap jaate hain toh there are few people who are who have been working in US in very for senior positions. They are also willing to come on board as well right? Toh hum is tarah is waqt ek ek na larger pool open karne ja rahe hain jisse hum us talent ko bhi jo consultant level hain, not consultant but to get them on like sort of a as an advisory board and in logon ke saath mil ke you know grow kar sakein but that's in plan yeah.
Achha thoda sa main conversation ko uh creativity ki taraf le jana chahunga. Zahir hai ki in a lot of ways what you're doing now is is disrupting the way that creative industries work. Um and and right before I go there, I do want to sort of wrap up on the on the overall your analysis of the AI industry right now. Um ki aap is waqt jo AI mein ho raha hai, zahir hai bahut saari jo mukhtalif aawazein aa rahi hain aur I think jo main as a as as an analyst of sorts, self-proclaimed analyst of sorts, jo samajhna chah raha hoon uh ya samajh jo mujhe aa rahi hai thodi si uh woh yeh aa rahi hai ki aaj jo bhi ho raha hai, aaj jo bhi falsafa hai woh agle do-dhai saal ke andar thoda sa shift hoga. Uh kyunki narrative drives a lot of capital and capital then drives where you know efforts are put in. Um aaj shayad agar aap kahein ki yaar aap nahi bhi subsidize kar rahe apne consumer ko lekin aapke peeche koi foundational model agar subsidize kar raha hai toh kal ko agar correction aati hai toh wahan se cost agar badhegi toh woh aapki cost bhi badhayega aur phir eventually woh ek aapko apne model ko thoda sa tweak karna padega. Right. Toh on some level it's very very exciting to think ki yaar achha maine apna revenue badhana hai, maine apne aap ko scale pe leke jana hai, maine saara kuch karna hai aur maine yeh saara kuch bahut rapidly karna hai kyunki aawaz yeh aa rahi hai ki yaar kar se ne dekho yeh kiya aur woh kahan pahunch gaya toh suno ne yeh kiya aur ab woh wahan pahunch gaya. Um lekin mere liye jab main main AI companies ko dekhta hoon toh mere liye na sabse bada question mark yeh aata hai and I think you take all of those boxes but sabse bada question mark yeh aata hai ki aaj se 15 saal baad yeh company exist kar rahi hogi ya nahi kar rahi hogi, right? Ek chhakka marna toh bada asaan hai lekin darmiyan mein jo sabse zyada badi cheez hai woh yeh hai ki is bubble ke andar out nahi hona. Kuch bhi ho jaye out nahi hona. Uh khelte rehna hai, test match ki tarah khelna hai. Uh aur usme again mera reasoning yahi hai ki uh narrative aaj ek hai, kal kuch aur ho sakta hai. Um longevity is far more important ki main ek billion dollar company banna chahta hoon ya main ek 100 billion dollar company aaj se 15 saal baad banna chahta hoon. Mere hisaab se possibility uski 100% exist karti hai. It's just that how do you strategize. What's your opinion of both the state of the AI industry right now, the narrative around the bubble jo bahut zyada log keh rahe hain, correction agar aapko lagta hai hogi toh kis tarah ki hogi aur AGI, you know all of these things ki kyunki log toh bade dare hue hain, woh toh keh rahe hain ki yaar ab toh jobs bhi khatam ho jayengi, ab toh pata nahi ek nayi economy aayegi. How do you see all of this?
Right. Uh yeh bada ek vast sawal hai aapka ki uh agle 15 saal ke andar naturally jo companies kis taraf ja rahi hongi right? So one of that is that ki uh hota yeh hai ki jitna aap innovation ke kareeb hoti hain jo companies right? Uh jo pattern samajh rahi hoti hain, jo customers ke experience ko samajh rahe hote hain aur customer kya chaah raha hai aur market kis taraf divert ho rahi hai. Toh humne apne aap ko itna zyada penetrate kiya hua hai is is culture mein although my team is in Islamabad right? Lekin we work like ki hum valley ke andar hi baithe hain right? Uh all eyes are there right one. Toh jab aap jitna close to you know circle hote hain, every hour Twitter pe kuch ho raha hai, kuch release aa rahi hai, kuch funding aa rahi hai. Uh we have been there right, looking at every lens right. Toh ek toh yeh hota hai ki aap usme failure ke kam chances hote hain aur aap koi you know humne apne aap ko woh jo ek bootstrap mindset mein rakha hai na teen-chaar saal, usse yeh cheez samajh aayi ki yaar aapko uh agle step pe kya karna hai, uske liye aapko step ke bahut kareeb hona padega, you know. Uh aap kisi tarah bhi fail nahi kar sakte right. Toh us cheez se humein itna woh ek market ki knowledge hai ki market kis taraf ja rahi hai right. Toh we have been trying to go matlab to live in that uh matlab with that frequency ko hum meet kar pa rahe hain ki jab jisme kuch bhi naya aata hai toh we we are also there right and trying to understand ki kya yeh hamare experience ya product ke andar ki vision se align hota hai ya nahi right. Uh jis tarah market ko agar aap high level dekhein, uh few companies have changed their complete product dynamics right. Agar ek company sirf template mein thi na aaj woh AI kar rahi hai aur woh aise kar rahi hai ki woh front pe dikha rahi hai, AI kar rahi hai right. Uh Adobe Firefly ka main dekh raha tha they have started integrating other models as well jo aaj tak nahi ho saka right. Toh itni powerful companies, foundational model companies bhi ab majboor hain ki you know to take certain routes of AI. Agar AI agar aap nano banana ko nahi lagaoge, VUE ko nahi lagaoge toh shayad aapki market mein uh toh yeh jo inform information ya technology innovation hai na isko adopt karne ke liye aapko super focus, super align hona padega. Ek din mein 10 cheezein change ho jaati hain right. Aapne dekhna hai ki aapne kis particular wave ko follow karna hai jo aapki you know growth ke andar align karti hai. Toh ek fortunate shuru mein hi alhamdulillah humne uh is tarah se make sure kar rahe hote hain ki whatever is coming, we are already there looking at the trends market. Market trend bahut zaroori hai isme samajhna aur meeting the right people, getting such people on board aur you know speaking to them always right. Uh I I I met few very very high class people in recently valley. Toh unke unka bhi yahi ek stance tha believe me, you know ki yaar humein nahi pata market kis taraf ja rahi hai right. Humein nahi pata agle hafte kya hone ja raha hai right. Uh isme aap se koi bhi keh le, Klarna, Perkin keh le, inside bade-bade partners yeh keh rahe hain ki yaar humein nahi you have to figure out the way your own self right. Toh ek achi baat yeh hai ki uh it's not a set of traditional industry jisme ek hi sort of players jeetenge right. Ek toh yeh achi baat hai. Toh jo bilkul frequency pe kaam kar raha hai, uski speed bahut matter kar rahi hai aur woh right decision right time pe le raha hai. Toh mujhe lagta hai ki uh bahut less chances hain fail hone ke right aur phir aap itna you know with competition with you know uh expansion of any industry comes with a lot of you know opportunities as well right. Toh hum un tamam opportunity jaise aaj se believe me teen mahine pehle yeh mini apps ka concept nahi tha ki foundational model ko use karke jaise aap bhi bata rahe the ki ek certain problem ko kaise solve kar sakte hain right. Toh our focus is entirely on the social media, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn uh ki log kya trend banana chaah rahe hain. Uski jab aap research karte hain toh ek mini app nikal aati hai. Uske upar aap ek trend ko maximize use karte hain aur apne product ko scale kar lete hain right. Toh matlab kisi ke paas koi answer to be honest nahi hai. Toh depend ki aap kitna close to so yahan pe bahut achha part hai ki aap YC uh ko dekhein, visit karein international markets mein, conferences mein jayein and particularly you know use as much as AI you know jitna zyada aap khud content AI ko consume karenge toh aapko samajh aayega yaar yeh cheez aise honi chahiye aise. Toh I think we are very close to you know what ideal company should look like. matlab agar hum valley mein hote toh of course kuch add on edge on zyada hota lekin alhamdulillah we are operating like ki we are already in valley and connecting with right people all the time.
Have you connected with the disrupt.com people, yeh jo uh Gaditek wale hain? Yeah. Gaditek brothers. Yes, yes. So they are very good. Reason why I say this is because uh I see a lot of parallels right? So they were early in the in the web area aur unhone khamoshi-khamoshi ek world class product banayi jo ki koi maan nahi sakta tha agar koi mujhse 2020 mein kehta ki yaar majority of the SME duniya ki jo hai woh hosted hai in a company run by a Pakistani toh main hasta uske upar. Aur eventually humne dekha ki uska exit bhi hua aur woh saara kuch hua. Um toh mujhe lagta hai ki there is a lot of learning that these guys would have jo ki aapke liye badi pertinent ho sakti hain potentially. So have you had uh conversations with them? Have you been able to connect with them? Correct. So uh very amazing brothers by the way uh bahut achhe aur bahut zyada aise like they are like elder brothers right? Jab bhi kuch hota hai toh aaj bhi gaadi mein Zain keh rahe the maine Uzair bhai se yeh baat ki you know. Aaqib bhai is also helping so Aaqib was the CPO of that Cloudways jiski aap baat kar rahe the. Phenomenal people, always happy to help and ab toh hum mashallah different hamari teams aapas mein collaborate karti hain, co-learning hai. Their team uh came in Islamabad office, hum jaate hain unse milne. Toh yes we have been learning aur uske andar ek badi important cheez hai Muzamil bhai ki attitude of learning right. Aap apne aap ko hamesha is tarah portray karein ki aapko kuch nahi aata and you know you try others to help you out really well right. Toh yeh attitude jo hai na woh hamara alhamdulillah shuru se bahut achha hai uh and they are very kind Uzair bhai and Aaqib log uh abhi hum kuch different partnerships kar rahe hain, unhone kuch different startups kar rahe hain and they are doing really well. Toh hum unke saath abhi jaise uh mix panel ko leke they are trying ki yaar hum kuch AI touch points banayenge jisme aapki churns improve ho rahe honge. Uh toh I was in call with I think their two co-founders uh Saad Gaditek and I think Arkam. So matlab bahut achhi synergy hum build kar rahe hain. Uh recently hum yeh bhi soch rahe the ki hum Pakistan se jab humein next step hop karna hoga just to open an office. Valley ka ek challenge yeh hai ki woh 12 poore ghante ke difference pe hai. Toh one maybe UAE or maybe other UK. Toh if we go to UAE like toh usme phir definitely uh Gaditek are already in Dubai and bada right talent aapko Kareem aur badi achhi firms hain jo Middle East mein scale karte hain. Toh yeh ek next hamare hops mein lagta hai ki humein sort of ek small uh other than SF, SF is is very good always for technology, partnership and funding sort of thing. Lekin hamara expansion mein jo plan banta hai woh time ke hisaab se I think yeh bada right areas lagte hain. Makes sense. Um thoda sa main creativity side pe aata hoon right? So jo uh ek toh technology hai woh humne baat kar li ki aap technology kya build kar rahe hain, kaise kar rahe hain, usko scale kaise kar rahe hain. But kyunki aap distribution layer ke upar hain uh toh wahan par kahin na kahin use cases are very very important and uh generally jab maine AI ko dekha toh ek toh uh AI ki do duniya hain. Ek duniya actual uh jispe kaam ho raha hai aur dusri woh duniya hai jo Twitter pe aapko nazar aati hai ki har din aapko aata hai ki VIO banana, nano banana nahi, ab yeh kar diya aur Hollywood toh khatam ho gaya, tabah ho gaya, yun ho gaya, woh ho gaya. Achha yeh hype cycle jo hai again uh jab bhi nayi cheez aa rahi hoti hai toh kyunki logon ko itna idea nahi hota toh aap bade-bade claims phenkein aap, jo bhi kar lein, koi masla nahi hai. And the the hype cycle allows for wohi jo jo jo agar koi over-inflate cheez hui hai toh usko mazeed inflate aap kar sakte hain. Lekin ek point ke baad jab actual mein consumer aana shuru ho jayega, actual mein woh usko use karna shuru ho jayega toh usne usme se jo faltu ka consumer hai na jo ki FOMO pe aa raha hai, woh rukta nahi hai. Woh aayega, woh use karega, woh jis point tak uski kaam hai woh karega, uske baad woh chala jayega aur aapne bhi dekhte honge ki aapke ads wagera jo bhi jis tarah se influencer marketing, ek certain consumer aayega, ek dedh do mahina rukega chala jayega. Lekin then there is a certain consumer jo ki actually rukta hai, 6 mahine bhi cross kar liye, usne saal bhi cross kar liya. More often than not woh jo consumer hai woh aisa hai jo ki um koi commercial kaam kar raha hai. Jo bhi kaam kar raha hai uski koi commercial viability hai, that is why he continues to pay for it and therefore uske liye ek directly economic reason hai ki yaar jo cheez usko let's say pehle 4000 dollar ki pad rahi thi ab woh 40 dollar ya 400 dollar mein kar sakta hai. Agar aap woh economic opportunity create kar dein toh then you have a great business and it can scale uh rapidly. Aur wahan par ab pichhle 6 mahine mein na mujhe certain cheezein emerge hoti hui nazar aayi hain jis tarah aur bahut logon ne reach out bhi kiya lekin woh hamesha yeh hota tha ki yaar AI jo hai woh 60% tak aapko la degi lekin 40% missing tha. Ab bahut saare use cases mein I would say even 100% ki ads ki jis tarah se aapne baat ki, AI ads are becoming very very mature um aur woh aapko dekh ke kahin se bhi AI add lagta nahi hai. Main I know personally uh someone jinhone ab poori agency bana li hai US ke andar aur woh Pakistan se baith ke matlab iska bhi ek next step ke upar ki woh actual mein pichhe imagine art ya yeh woh istemaal kar rahe hain lekin woh business kar rahe hain aur woh 10, 12, 15, 50,000 dollar per month ka sirf aur sirf is kaam pe nikal rahe hain services ke upar. Um is waqt kyunki again jo jo aawaz kaafi dafa aapko aati hai woh yeh is tarah ki aawaz aa jaati hai ki um you know ab toh creativity khatam ho jayegi, ab toh AI sab kuch kiya karega, ab toh Hollywood bhi tabah ho gaya hai, ab toh musicians bhi tabah ho gaye hain. Aap isko saare ko kis tarah se dekhte hain? Real world environment ke andar post AI ki jo duniya hai, usme kis had tak aap disruption dekh rahe hain? Kis tarah ki aap dekh rahe hain ki yaar um you know jobs khatam ho rahi hain ya jobs evolve ho rahi hain, use cases khatam ho rahe hain, use cases evolve ho rahe hain. Uh again kyunki aap consumer ke us touch point ke upar hain jispe aapka consumer aapko use karke actual mein cheezein bana raha hai. Ab usme I would assume ki 99% is waqt kachra hai. Woh sirf tester, like pehle main jab 20 saal pehle maine Premiere, Shemeer karna seekha tha na toh main kachra hi banata tha, woh apne 200 yaaron ko dikhata tha, woh kehte the taaliyaan bajate the, zabardast kaam kar rahe hain. Took me 10 years to be able to create something that public would live and someone would public would like and someone would pay money for. Yeah. Toh aapko is waqt kya nazar aa raha hai, realistically is saari cheez ki evolution? Correct. I think with agar hum yeh ChatGPT ka particular case dekhein ya Gemini dekhein ya cloud models aap dekhein aur phir I'll come to the creative part jo ki hamara imagine serve karta hai. Uh with GPT aapko I am sure bahut saare ek chhota sa maths ki calculation karni hai, kuch bhi you know presentation prepare karni hai, you know let's say uh koi ek aapko let's say basic medical report test check karni hai you know. You were dependent a lot on different sort of you know online materials right, websites pe aap jaate the. Aapko koi unique answer nahi milte the. Toh itna aaj GPT particular LLMs aur in sab cheezon se uh particularly aap use karein toh aap you are able to do a lot things right. Questions, answers aapke clear ho gaye hain, ab websites ban rahi hain, apps banne lag gayi hain. Yeh ho gaya matlab chat ka part, very easy aapke pocket mein kaisi app hai jo aapko har waqt kabhi bhi you know uh even you know you can talk anything with with you know GPT and relevant models. Ab image aur video jo jis tarah hum jiske upar hum particularly bahut zyada focus hain uh uske andar till I think mid of this year right, uh models were not uh understanding the prompt taking rightly right. Uh prompt aap dete the usko woh shayad sahi samajh nahi pata tha aur you know different route kar deta tha. Uh recently nano banana ke saath aap you know it's like complete editor right. Toh matlab aap aap soch bhi nahi sakte jo you know woh nano banana ki ability kar di hai. Toh usse ek toh fayda models are getting opti day over day, month over month, voice support lip-syncing support nahi thi. Video mein agar video mein baat ho rahi thi to you know, woh voice sahi nahi ho pa raha tha. Ab woh improve hone lagi hai. Character consistency aa gayi hai right. To yeh sab phir pehle aap koi ek ad banate the to uske andar bahut different cheezein like pura din lag raha tha AI ke upar bhi karte hue, ek ek minute ki video banane mein. Ab woh behtar hote hote hote, I think bahut like do ghante mein ban jaati hai right, agar aap right model use karte hain. I think to yeh ho gaya ek ek aspect ki yaar, aam aadmi ke liye content banana bada aasaan ho gaya. Woh jo aap keh rahe hain ki literally ek saal pehle agar aapko ya teen saal pehle koi logo banana hai apni dukan ka, apni kisi bhi cheez ka yaar, aapko graphic designer hire karna hai woh. To yeh to ho gaya ki ek aam aadmi ki life bahut aasaan ho gayi hai. Achha, ab baat karte hain ki jo professionals hain, right? Agar aap particularly Instagram aur YouTube ka content dekhein na, jitna is waqt kaam in platforms ke upar ho raha hai, har banda creator banna cha raha hai aur ban raha hai right. To kya har creator apne saath do teen visual designers aur ek motion graphics ka banda rakh ke ek agency choti si chalaye right? To woh kya kar rahe hain ki if you see the latest YouTubes mein jitne bhi dekh raha hota hoon usme bada mix of content aa raha hai. Kuch human generated hai, zyada tar AI generated hai right. Aur woh you know news channels dekh lein, political channels dekh lein, woh koi purani 90s ki, 80s ki daur ki koi cheez dikhani hogi na to woh saara Gen AI se karke aur usko interesting bana rahe hain right. To aur content ki frequency what I see personally with AI bahut badhti ja rahi hai. Har banda content banaye ja raha hai, banaye ja raha hai, banaye ja raha hai aur AI postings bhi auto auto pe chal rahi hain right. To mujhe lagta hai ki content production bahut badh gayi hai. To jo creator hai, woh pehle din mein agar jaise faceless video ka bada solid concept hai, aapne ek baar apna model train kar diya, woh you know aur uske andar aapne voice train kar di to us video aur us us bande ne aap usse kuch bhi prompt pe karwa lein, you know once that is done to woh model jo hai na aapka face hoga aur audio aapki chal rahi hogi aur you are able to do a lot things right. To jo jitni demand of content badhti ja rahi hai, isi tarah AI bhi enhance ho raha hai aur jitna like AI ki enhancement se na content production directly proportional badh rahi hai. To mujhe lagta hai ki sab ke sab is advantage hi le rahe hain. Kisi ki job nahi ja rahi. Haan, of course certain level jab aapki creativity skill hi nahi hai kisi cheez ko karne ki right, ek aam sa creator hai jo baith ke basic sa content banata tha, agar woh thoda sa smart mind istemal kare na to poore poore gaane, videos us pe jaane ja rahi hain right. Pura audio jaise music ke andar aapko suno ke andar pura you know ek like kisi ne gaana banana hai right, to at least aap usse kuch dots connect kar sakte ho, composition samajh sakte ho, writing aap create kar sakte ho, right aap to I think it's it's helping a lot and millions of things everyday in our life jo hum use karke usko apne content ko bahut enhance kar rahe hain in all the way. Email writing, content writing, content banana, video banana, faceless banana, kuch bhi aapko create karna hai. So these tools are helping you you know to grow further fast, I think. And I think mera personal experience is mein yeh kehta hai ke there is a lot of noise in the market. There are way too many tools. Ab woh karna ho yeh raha hai ke consumer ke saamne itni zyada choice aa gayi hai ke usko na decision fatigue ho raha hai aur woh apne time ko use karne ke baad woh baitha reelein dekh raha hai subah shaam, bajaye iske ke woh kisi ek tool ko pakde, usko bhi master kar le na to early stage mein aapko successes aana shuru ho gayi hain ke yaar aap imagine art uthao, aap imagine art ko sirf use karna bhi properly seekh lo kyunke ab tools itne complex hote ja rahe hain ke aapko itna aasaan nahi hai ke aapne bas ek chaar words bole aur kar diya. Uski agar aapne optimization karni hai to uski prompt kaise hogi, uske andar kya kya information add karenge. Even film making mein main dekh raha tha ke just by writing two lines you don't get the result. Ab to aapko film maker ki tarah baith ke batana hai usko ke yeh wala scene aise hoga, phir yeh wala scene aise hoga, phir waise hoga, tab ja kar ke woh karke nikalta hai. Song ke andar same cheez hai. To you actually have a very interesting opportunity now for Pakistanis. Ek to woh hai na jo ke aapki story se dekh ke ek product banana seekh raha hai ya woh keh raha hai ke main product yahan se baith ke bana sakta hoon. Mere hisaab se to millions of Pakistanis agle paanch saal ke andar is nayi technology ko use karke globally services mein ghus sakte hain. Agar woh sirf ek aam bacha agar isko sun raha hai na, woh uska kuch bhi na kare, woh kahe yaar agar imagine art ka mujhe aaj pata laga hai, main jaata hoon usko seekhna shuru ho jaata hoon. Kyunke agar mujhe imagine art use karna aa gaya to main 10 e-commerce ke businesses ko serve kar sakta hoon. Main 10 logon ke liye 10 qisam ki cheezein bana karke aage nikaal sakta hoon. And again jobs replace AI nahi kar raha, jobs replace ho rahi hain by someone who knows AI. Correct. To pehle woh jingle wala banda jo khud jingle bana raha tha, woh shayad ab aap baith ke kisi AI tool se karenge. Human will replace a human but the smarter human will be the one jo ke AI enabled hai. 100%. Um and I feel like and unfortunately in Pakistan hamare itne masail hue hue hain is waqt ke hum realize nahi kar rahe ke iske andar bahut opportunity hai jisse aap kuch nikaal sakte hain. Personally maine suno ko istemal kiya recently um aur exactly wohi tha. Pehla 6-8 ghante to maine kaha yaar yeh to isne to sab bana diya hai. Matlab aap ek chaar lainon ka prompt daalte ho aur usne jo hai na pura ka pura gaana nikaal diya. But I realized very quickly ke yaar pehle jo chaar gaane the novelty badi achi thi, lekin woh maine chat GPT se, mujhe to koi na main lyricist hoon, na mujhe koi soch hai. To maine chaar gaane jab maine likhe, maine kaha yaar fit gaane. Maine apne doston ko bheja, unhone kaha yaar whatever matlab gaane hain, ab to 1000 gaane waise hi available hain. Phir maine kya kiya, maine purani nazmein uthayi, maine un nazmon ko daal ke karna shuru kar diya. Ab lyrics badi achi ho gayi. Sun ke maza aa raha tha, lag raha tha koi proper mature gaana hai. Maine phir doston ko bheja, unhone kaha yaar haan theek hai, lekin chaaron ke chaaron ek jaise sound kar rahe hain. To phir mujhe samajh aayi, maine kaha achha yaar ab isko, gaane bade waise aap sune, aap kahein yaar wah, AI ne kya bana diya. Lekin kya us bande ko baar baar us gaane ko main sununga? Probably not, right? Correct. Tab mujhe samajh aayi ke achha yaar ab mujhe studio mein ghusna hai aur studio mein ghus ke mujhe to oomph fat karna hai uske andar. Mujhe pata lagna hai ke yaar is wale moment ke andar itne beats per minute ke hisaab se idhar trumpet add karo, idhar tabla add karo. Woh maine kaha yaar ismein to mujhe science of music chahiye. Ab to mujhe wohi masla ho gaya jo pehle tha. Shayad pehle aisa ho raha tha ke 10 logon ke paas science of music thi, do logon ke paas technology woh kar pa rahe the. Ab 10 ke 10 bana payenge music. Lekin agar main bilkul naya laoon na to mujhe AI kuch nahi help kar sakti. I need to know something about something to be able to create something powerful. To us context ke andar I know ke ab aap kyunke comfortable ho chuke hain life mein to maine dekha ke aapke bhi gaane Spotify wagera pe aa rahe hain. Um tell me a bit about um as someone jo ke technically apni technology se is poori industry ko disrupt kar raha hai, creativity ko aur uske andar zahir hai ke bahut saare logon ke bahut saare opinions hain ke ismein to pata nahi sab khatam ho jayega, copyright ke bade masail hain, yeh hai, woh hai. Artists jo hain woh bade AI ko reject kar rahe hain. Yahan par ek ek ek CEO jo hai woh jo ke in many ways apna tool ko you know millions of log use karke uh uh naye tareeqe se creativity ko enhance kar rahe hain. What compelled you to go and start creating your own music? And I'd be curious. Usmein jo aapki is waqt music aa rahi hai, usmein jab aapke paas access tha of so many AI tools to aapne usko kis tarah se sort of optimize kiya ke yaar kis had tak main apni cheez likhoonga, banaoonga, awaaz use karoonga, kis had tak main AI ki madad loonga? Right. So music ek ek bada alag se chapter hai jo mujhe lagta hai ke mere life ke saath se connected hai right. Aur bachpan se hi kuch aisi cheezein thi jo mujhe uh lagta tha ke you know I should matlab I I felt ke yaar meri awaaz achi hai aur main bachpan se hi you know laga rehta tha, even university time mein mujhe Ahmed ki bajaye log Aatif kehte the. You know I was big fan of Aatif right. To um Rehman ko bahut early age se sunna ya Rehman ko compositions ko, music music ko like 20 saal se mujhe lagta hai jab main 10-12 saal se tha tab se ab tak bahut zyada main sun raha tha. Achha ab hota yeh hai ke last year I think I was going through do ek medical ki do situations mujhe hui. Jisse mujhe laga ke uh meri like jo business hai it's consuming a lot of energy aur main sirf iske andar na uh bilkul woh ho ke reh chuka hoon right. To meri creativity down ho rahi thi. To mujhe laga, so hua yeh ke ek baar Bell's palsy halka sa kick off hua aur phir last year particularly mujhe sugar ka ek na pre-diabetic situation ki taraf main jaane laga. To doctor ne kaha koi pareshani chal rahi hai, kya hai? To maine kaha nahi yaar bas sirf business hai jo of course bahut zyada um effort maangta hai aur aap usmein hote hain, phir wohi ek routine hai aur yeh woh. To tab maine socha ke yaar I'll you know you know I think I should write or compose right. To I started composing things aur ek idea aaya aur maine usko compose kiya aur likha aur phir I I shared with my few friends right. Unhone kaha yeh to ek achha ban raha hai, to why not right. To maine usko ek gaana maine release kar diya is saal ke January ke andar. Aur phir April ke andar ek I was driving one day to I was missing my mother right. To meri unse badi ek mohabbat bachpan se hi bahut zyada hai. To main miss kar raha hoon aur main ek melody gunguna raha hoon. Ek aisi out out of nowhere ek melody aati hai. To woh usko maine kara aur phir usko maine likha. Ab maine jab likha to woh bahut solid dots connect ho rahe the uske poori life journey ke upar. To maine kaha yaar chalein woh. To phir is tarah se ek ek ek you know creativity uh ka ek aaya ke yaar isse thoda sa aapki you know hobby keh lein aur aap jab apne kaam se thak jaate hain, you give matlab aap apne aap ko time de sakte hain isse right. Jo aapki negative energy hai, aap usko relax kar sakte hain ismein likhne mein, compose karne mein. So that's something uh aur ek ek maine walida ke upar ek bada solid composition ek likhi hai ke teri yaad dil mein hai kahin. To woh ek woh ban gaya. Uh to I think yeh ek music ko leke hai jo main just I'm I'm doing it for my you know relax time pe main kar raha hota hoon. Inner child ko heal karne ke liye. Haan ji, right right right, bilkul aise hi hai. To bilkul. Um usko aapne um Spotify pe bhi daala hai. I've seen, YouTube pe bhi daala hai, Spotify pe bhi daala hai. How's your experience been? 37,000 monthly listeners hain uske upar. Um you know again this is something that's just you did randomly. You don't have a technically a a distribution channel like you are us tarah se influencer nahi hai. Right. How has the response been on the music? Uh I think yeh jo hai India mein kuch ek do gaane bade chal gaye hain mere aur uski wajah se I think traffic usmein lift mila hai aur ek baar jab mil jaate hain to that's going well I think. Jo jo mujhe lagta hai ke maine bhi usko kahin balki kuch karta bhi hoon to post bhi nahi daalta ke maine gaana bana diya hai woh bilkul time hi nahi hota right. Lekin ab socha hai ke thoda bahut isko you know I should be you know giving it some freelance thing jo you know content handling wagera main kar le right. To response achha hai I think. Ab mujhe sabse zyada khushi hoti hai ke jab main free hota hoon to main apne gaane ko hi sun leta hoon right aur usko phir main aur mujhe woh usse ek strength keh lein mil rahi hoti hai. Rahi baat yeh ke iska response YouTube ka kaafi achha hai aur Spotify zyada behtar hai. Um just people are playing it out of nowhere jo mujhe lagta hai kuch compositions hoti hain woh click kar jaati hain logon ko to and they you know they listen it. But mujhe ismein maza hi yun aa raha hota hai ke kuch naya craft kar rahe hote hain aur phir uh ab jab naya kuch likhte hain ya compose karte hain, it's another level right. Woh aapke kaam mein bhi phir reflect karta hai. Aapki creativity, aapki decisioning aur mujhe uh particularly jab aap fly karte hain, duniya ke different logon se milta hoon aur jab aap bolte ho ke yaar ek imagine art product to hai lekin main art ke andar bhi hoon right. To they feel wow right. To creativity behtar hui hai uske baad, uske baad kisi kyunke writing uh to some context kuch likhna, kuch story banana, writing aur usko phir ek ek you know ek melody ke andar compose karna aur phir usko release I think record is is very normal thing. Lekin jo woh wala part hai woh ek aapko bahut zyada creativity deta hai jo aapke kaam mein influence karta hai aur aapko next day har roz aapko ek energy milti hai ke yaar agar aap kyunke har roz aapko seekhna hai with AI right. Uh aur jo aapne badi zabardast baat ki ke suno se aapne create to kiya lekin you were not able to get the feel or the the the woh jo ek ek element of woh keh lein ke natural element nahi aa raha hota. Um aur music mein to bahut zyada waise hi art ke andar kuch bhi you know agar creativity mein ek level bhi kami hai na focus ki to shayad woh us level pe art jaata nahi hai aapka. To that is helping me a lot to connect with imagine art vision aur main khud personally bahut usko positive feel karta hoon. Achha agar main aap se poochun ke um yahi main imagine art se connect karoon. So you know as as we were going through abhi maine start mein um Mughlistan wala trailer dikhaya. Bilkul ek random thought thi, us random thought ko aake market mein phenka. Interestingly uske upar uh logon ka interest develop ho gaya. To main bhai ke saath baitha, bhai maine kaha yaar chalo isko ek uh you know commercialize karte hain, long term pe lekar jaate hain, dekhte hain kya kiya ja sakta hai. Commercialize se murad mera yeh tha ke ek public ke liye ek actual series bana dete hain. Not not money us tarah se. Right. Jab hum iske andar ghuse na to samajh yeh aayi ke yaar logon ko yeh nahi sense hoti, log humesha na sabse ek aakhri outcome ki taraf jaate hain. So AI kal ko filmein bana dega, bahut achi baat hai, bana dega theoretically. But film making is not the art of putting the film together. Film making ek pura process hai, ek workflow hai. 100%. Right? Similarly aapne gaana banaya to gaana banana ek workflow hai. Gaana banana yeh nahi hai ke meri maine apni ammi ki yaad mein ek gaana likhna hai, please ek gaana likh do. Chat GPT ko aap yeh keh sakte hain woh aaj ek nazm likh dega. Right. Lekin actual mein jab aap us song ke us mein jaate hain to uske andar uske chaar se cheh hisson mein aap usko divide karenge. Aap kahenge ke yaar pehle main uski lyrics likh raha hoon, phir us lyrics ke baad main composition mein ja raha hoon, composition ke baad main uski production mein ja raha hoon aur yeh to main ek bilkul lay man ki tarah bol raha hoon jo actual music wala hoga woh usko cheh chaar cheh aur cheezein bana dega. Film making mein agar aap jaate hain to aap pehle ek story banate hain, um story ko aap screenplay mein convert karte hain, screenplay ke baad aap storyboard ke andar aate hain, storyboard ke baad aap jaake production mein jaate hain, production ke baad aap post aur in saaron ko bhi aap multiple tiers mein break kar sakte hain. To jab main is saare ko dekh raha tha, bhai mere jo hain woh again pichle do teen saal se ismein lage hue hain aur woh jo hai na foundational models ke saath hi khelte aaye hain, Midjourney, Discord, this, that. To wahan par mujhe yeh samajh aayi ke yaar it's a process problem and yahan par jo visual aspect hai woh to bada achha ho jaata hai. Lekin the reason uske andar umph nahi aa paata ya woh woh style nahi aa paata woh is wajah se because usko breakdown karke individual nodes ko tareeqe se nahi kiya ja raha. So for example ek hai suno AI. Suno AI kya kar raha hai? Woh keh raha hai ke yaar maine duniya ke tamam gaanon ko uthaya, unse seekha ke yaar ek gaana kis tarah sound karna chahiye, shuru kaise hona chahiye, darmiyaan mein kya hona chahiye, end mein kya hona chahiye. To somehow it looks perfectly clean as a as a song. Correct. Uske start, uski end, uska saara kuch bada achha hota hai. Lekin jab main lyric banane ke liye main jaata hoon Chat GPT ke paas to Chat GPT ko koi idea, usne duniya ki har cheez pe train kiya hua hai apne aap ko to woh lyrics bahut zabardast bana sakta hai. Right? Right. Wahan par mujhe yeh samajh aati hai ke achha yaar actual mein hoga yeh ke agar main film bana raha hoon ya main koi series bana raha hoon to main ek aise AI ke paas jaunga jisne Pakistani, Indian, American tamam filmon, usne kuch extra nahi kiya hua. Usne sirf aur sirf filmon ko study kiya hua hai, ek small language model hai aur woh screen play ki kuch mujhse information lega aur woh uski basis ke upar woh ek badi targeted kaam ki cheez mujhe bana karke dega. Phir main uske output ko uthaunga, main usko agle tool pe lekar jaunga, woh mujhe usko kar dega. Phir maine uthaunga, main usko agle tool pe le jaunga. Um and this is my understanding again on the side. Aap kyunke engineering side ke upar hain, jab aap micro apps ki baat karte hain, jab aap workflows ki baat karte hain, is this how your eventually imagining ke yaar different cheezein different areas ke upar train ho kar padi hongi aur woh us particular use case ko bahut achhe se kar rahi hongi? Kyunke practically mujhe yeh lagta hai single tool doing everything is not gonna work. Iske upar again woh Andrej ki jo podcast hai woh badi mazey ki hai because woh us pe woh yahi baat karta hai ke kaafi dafa jab insaan ko bahut zyada kuch pata lag jaata hai na, PhD jo hai na generally woh ek bad businessman hota hai. Ek achha businessman woh hota hai jo ke na bilkul jisko kuch zyada pata nahi hota, woh explore karte karte karte bahut kuch nikaal deta hai. Ispe badi debate bhi ho rahi thi pichle dino ke high IQ people tend to be employees and low IQ people tend to be employers because low IQ people jo hai na woh itne focused hote hain aur high IQ walon ke paas itni information hoti hai ke unko sense hi nahi hoti ke yaar consumer kya chahta hai, kya nahi chahta. To woh badi ek Silicon Valley mein bhi debate ho rahi thi. Yep. Yep. Ab woh is isi ko context ko madd-e-nazar rakhte hue usne kaha ke yaar jab agents ka bhi yahi hai, jab aapne usko sab sikha diya na to woh ek ajeeb sa ek vanilla sa ban gaya hai. Jab aapne usko sab band karke aapne kaha bhai tera yeh kaam hai, tu iska champion ban ja to woh ek badi achi output deta hai aur phir aap uski output lekar dusre agent ke paas jaate hain aur kya again thought hai yeh meri. Aap agar iske andar add kar sakein as as as an operator um do you think this is this is wrong? Sahi hai, galat hai? What are your thoughts on it? Yeah, agar aap is question ko dobara like clarify karein because So mera point basically yeh hai ke the future of of of actual AI workflows woh yeh hai ke bunch of different apps jo ke trained hain on feature specific use case aur woh uski wajah se higher value generate kar rahe hain aur aap jo workflow wise hain, main as an agency main kya kar raha hoon ke main keh raha hoon ke yaar main lyrics banane ke liye is AI ke paas jaunga, usse main lyrics ko banaunga, optimize karunga, set kar loonga, phir main usko lekar jaunga ek composition tool ke andar jo ke meri ek composition drive karega, wahan se main usko uthaunga, main utha karke le jaunga ek alag tool ke upar jo ke us saare ko ikatha karega. So on and so forth. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. To I think jo ek powerful agent ka jo concept hai aap keh rahe hain ke that will be able to do matlab a lot things. Abhi tak jis tarah hum imagine ke andar ek super agent prepare kar rahe hain right. Aksar customer ka isko main is tarah se start karta hoon ke aksar customer aata hai, jo visitors hote hain AI visitors, woh aate hain ji mujhe create me a video. Ab woh image studio ke andar hain aur woh aate hain ji mujhe video bana do right. To customer ko image milti thi, woh kehta tha yaar yeh kya cheez hai right. To wahin pe churn kar jaata tha. Un tamam aur phir yeh bade challenge hain, phir model level pe hai, phir kisi model ke andar sound hai, kisi mein nahi hai. To hum internal recently ek ek model deploy kiya hai humne, jismein aapko ek prompt box hai, uske andar aap kuch bhi aake likhte ho, woh automatically sense karega ke audio call ho rahi hai, video call ho rahi hai, music ho raha hai, kis certain case pe ho raha hai, woh automatically detect karega aur aapko us prompt ka answer de dega right, ya video, audio jo bhi hai right. Is caliber ka agent to abhi market mein recently I think Runway ne aur ek humne bhi recently banaya, aur bhi kuch developers ne banaya hoga right. To yeh to ho gayi woh. Rahi baat yeh ke mini apps ka bhi bilkul naya ek age hai right. It's a very new age of mini apps right, jismein workflows shayad do mahine pehle hi launch hue hain aur us workflow simple karta yeh hai ke yaar jo 10 steps ki cheez hai na, kuch ek ek pipeline banani thi aapne 10 steps ke andar, woh aap ek baar set kar dete ho, uske baad you will be able to just you know plug and play that pipeline certain way right. Uske andar aapko baar baar change nahi karna. To abhi tak ki jo advancement uski yahi hai ke aap ek certain ek workflow yeh wala aur ek mini apps, mini apps bhi basically ek certain use case ke liye ek mini you know backend logic likhi hui hai, prompt based right, us model ke upar right. Usne woh generate kar dena hai aur let's say simple sa ek hai ke aap ek photo input mein dete hain and you want ke ji uska angle jo hai na us close lookup se woh door ja raha ho right. Yeh ek bada ek effect aaj kal Instagram wagera pe bada crazy hai. To aap simple prompt usko train kar dete ho, woh ek certain cheez kar leta hai. Ab yeh aage kahan jaati hui nazar aa rahi hai? This is something I think bahut hi koi mini apps, UGC ka ek alag ban jayega, ek certain. Toh mini apps is like just, you can say ke har problem of image, video ke upar use case specific hai basically. use case specific rahega, right? Aur abhi koi flavor to all jo aap keh rahe hain, ke jo suno ki example hai ke usko aap music toh achha karwa paate hain lekin woh lyric part nahi kar paata. Toh woh jo ek super, ek agent hai jo end to end woh aapko ek gaana bana ke de raha hoga. Suno is there only, right? Lekin uske andar woh soul nahi hai. Toh abhi bhi log yahi kar rahe hain ke image kahin se generate karenge, usko samajh nahi aayega even, right? Ke is se achi bani hai, woh dusre pe jaake woh try out kar rahe hain. Toh abhi it's a bit early to predict ke aapka waqai woh content jo hai na, aap aadhe ghante ki video bana lein ya 10 minute ka ek gaana bana lein, ya koi background music create kar lein, jo close to the originality ki taraf ja raha ho ya ek feel full ho.
Make sense. Main ek thought experiment kar raha hoon, right? So main yeh kehta hoon ke jo mujhe is waqt problem nazar aa rahi hai na, mujhe lagta hai ke potentially, thought experiment hai, potentially jo banda usko break kar paayega, woh start kyunke engineering se hua toh everybody is super big on engineering. Ke yaar mera model, mera output, mera yeh saara kuch. I think what a lot of people are missing now is the and and are now over time going towards that, jo hamari bhi iske upar discussion hui, distribution. Aapke investors ne bhi bola ke yaar mujhe real world environment bana kar ke do. Toh aapne kaha ke yaar chalo business aur collaboration ki taraf chalte hain. Um, mujhe yeh lagta hai ke jo yeh poora model hai na jo ke humne uthaya Chat GPT se, kyunke Chat GPT ne chat based shuru kiya aur unhone kaha ke yaar prompt do aur prompt ke evaz output milegi. Toh har kisi ne woh formula follow kiya hai ke yaar tell us what you want and we'll deliver on that. I think if you were to study why majority of the people are failing, it is less to to at this point in time. Early on I agree, but at this point in time it is less because jo output hai woh quality ki nahi hai. Correct. And it is more because consumer ko pata hi nahi hai woh banana kya chahta hai. Theek hai? So 10 mein se 9 log jo hain na unko yeh pata hi nahi hai ke woh banana kya chahte hain. Ek bande ko pata hai, usko aap koi bhi tool de denge na woh bana ke nikaal lega. Correct. Achha woh jo jisko pata hai woh kaun hai? Woh woh hai jisko us industry mein experience hai. Usko actual mein us us us us product ko breakdown karna aata hai. Iski main aasaan misaal is tarah doonga. Aapne apni life mein kahin na kahin bahut saari cheezein design karwayi hongi. Logo, company branding, this, that. Pakistan mein bhi bahut zyada designer hota hai, Europe mein bhi bahut zyada designer hota hai. Ek achha designer hota hai, ek bura designer hota hai. Generally log designer ki achhai burai is basis pe define karte hain ke usne kitna achha design kiya. Jis bande ne actually design karwaya hai na, woh hamesha ek achha designer aur bura designer is tarah breakdown karega ke uska process kaisa tha. Pakistani designer kya karega? Woh kahega ke yaar kya chahiye aapko? Aap usko ala bala kuch bhejenge, woh aapko uske evaz kuch pata nahi ajeeb cheez bana ke de dega. Phir aap kahenge yaar samajh nahi aa rahi bhai tu dekh, aisa kar, aisa kar le. Phir aap lage rahenge aur kuch nikal nahi paayega kyunke aapko bhi nahi pata. Aap designer thodi hain, aap toh apni vibes mein bata rahe hain. Correct. Achha European aayega na woh aapko pehle ek poori sheet bhejega. Woh design ki baat hi nahi karega, woh kahega ke kaun ho? Kya karte ho? Falsafa kya hai? Consumer kya hai? Yeh kya hai? Woh kya hai? Woh itni information extract kar lega jo ke aapke liye dena bahut aasaan hai. Correct. Kyunke aapne woh cheezein sochi hui hain. Usmein design ka talluq hi koi nahi hai. Woh cheezein saari aapke daily life ke business ke baare mein hain. Bilkul. Jab woh saara nikaal chuka hoga na, uske baad woh thodi si shayad do chaar baatein poochega ke yaar vibe bata do tumhari kya hai. Phir woh ek cheez design karke lekar aayega aur pehli dafa fursat mein aap kahenge yaar wah! Aapne 10,000 dollar isko diya tha, us bande ne dusre waale ne 50 dafa aapke saath kaam karke 50 designs diye. Lekin haan. 50 dollar ke woh kaam nahi aaye. Nahi aaye. Isne 5,000 dollar leke ek cheez banayi aur aapne kaha yaar wah! Kya cheez bana gaya. Correct. Ab aap kehne ko toh yeh hai ke yaar is bande ne is bande ko design karna aata hai. Nahi bhaiya, usko process karna aata tha. Usne pehle aake itna achha process breakdown kar diya ke final cheez jo nikli woh ek hi iteration mein achhi nikal aayi. 100%. Ab main isko flip karta hoon. Main kehta hoon aaj jab ek use case yeh hai jo jo jo bubble use case tha woh yeh tha, kuch bhi banao, kuch bhi nikalo. Woh logon ne use kiya, saara kuch hai, log usmein karke nikal gaye. Mujhe agar ek tool chahiye na, mujhe suno jaisa tool nahi chahiye. Main jab suno ke paas jaata hoon toh mujhe ek tool chahiye jo mujhe bole ke brother kya chahte ho tum? Kuch bhi nahi, koi gand nahi. Woh kehta hai jingle chahte ho? Gaana banana chahte ho? Yeh karna chahte ho? Toh main kahunga yaar mujhe toh jingle chahiye, mujhe toh apne insta YouTube ke podcast ke naye season ka intro chahiye. Right. Okay. Woh kehta hai jingle chahiye toh kis falsafa tha, thought kya hai? Information, information. Jab woh saari information aa jaati hai, ab mujhe prompt karne ki zaroorat nahi hai. Ab woh mujhe baith ke ek poore flow se guzarta hai jiske baad jaakar eventually cheez aati rehti hai aur main uske feedback pe woh nikaalta rehta hoon. Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. So multiple input, right? Ek content final produce karne ke liye aap keh rahe hain ke ek certain, so abhi hum prompt likh dete hain woh kuch bhi deta hai jo result up to the mark nahi hota hamare, jo expectations pe nahi aa pa raha hota. Toh your point is ke kya koi ek aisa tool jo jo mujhse bhale input 10 tarah ke lein lekin jo mujhe final content de, woh itna ho ke main boloon wow. Is that something? Haan main yeh keh raha hoon ke abhi log kya kar rahe hain ke log jo hain na uski technical cheezon ko map kar rahe hain. Right. Theek hai? Technical ke aage ek services ka component hai. Photoshop is a technical tool that can do anything. Correct. Right? Hum kya kar humne socha ke yaar achha actual mein na Photoshop ke darmiyaan mein jo banda services provide kar raha hai, us bande ko main nikaal deta hoon aur main direct consumer se natural language mein poochunga aur main usko cheez bana doonga. Right. What I did not realize was ke us bande ka kaam jo tha na woh Photoshop use karna kam tha, woh us client management zyada thi. Right. Aur us client management ke aspect ko main abhi tak apne design mein integrate nahi kar pa raha aur client management yeh samajhti hai ke consumer mera dumb as hell hai. Theek hai? Right. Toh mujhe us consumer se kis tarah genius tarike se information extract karni hai taake main usko relevant product nikaal ke de sakoon. Right. Woh jo client management ka aspect hai na user experience ke andar, woh abhi tak tools mein nahi aa pa raha jismein agar main ek ad banana chaahna chaah raha hoon, toh mujhe prompt na poocho bhai mere se, mere se falsafa poocho aur prompt khud likh do kyunke woh likhna zyada aasaan hai aur jab woh falsafa poochne ke baad result aayega toh automatically woh itna achha hoga ke main kahunga yaar yeh toh duniya hi badal gayi meri. Right, right, right. Haan. Toh I think yeh jo I think you're talking about a I think a next level generation of Gen AI, right? Ke abhi bhi problem yahi hai ke aapka kayi saare models, video ke case mein kaafi improvement aayi hai recent times mein, audio bahut behtar kaam kar raha hai. Lekin ek ek by the way yahan pe ek bada unique cheez yeh hai ke koi bhi art hai, you know, koi bhi content hai, right? Woh badi subjective cheez hai. Ho sakta hai aapke liye woh bahut different ho, mere liye woh bahut different ho, right? Ah aur ek certain ah producer ke liye let's say agar aap apne channel ke liye baat karein, woh aapko samajh ke ek certain you know content ke yaar isko is bande ko yahi particular cheez hi chahiye. Aur I think it's a test and trial a lot right now, right? Aapko bahut test and trial karna hai ke yaar woh cheez aa jaye. Aur I think iska universally ah aap koi bhi yeh audio lein, music lein, video lein, image lein, in sab ke andar ah sabka challenge yeh hai ke jab bhi kuch art ya product content aata hai na, toh hum bolte hain nahi yaar yeh toh mujhe nahi, mujhe ismein yeh cheez kami kami lag rahi hai. Phir aap us prompt ko enhance karte hain aur phir dobara rewrite karte hain aur abhi tak toh yahi flow hai, right? Ke aap prompt ko enhance karte karte karte karte you'll be able to get that thing, right? Ah phir uske andar hum jaise imagine ke andar kuch bhi you know prompt likhte hain toh chaar ek content aate hain, unmein se phir woh poochta hai ke yaar aapko ismein se kaunsa close up lag raha hai, right? One. Ek cheez hum yeh de rahe hain imagine ke andar hi ke aap chat mein ek simple sa prompt dete hain, woh usko enhance ka option deta hai ke yaar aap is particular prompt ko apne enhance karna hai just toggle up, right? Toh woh karte hain toh woh close to the required result ki taraf le jaane ki usko woh koshish kar raha hota hai. Toh ab tak ki yeh cheezein hain jo uski taraf leke ja rahi hain. I think iska talluq yeh hai ke jitna zyada by the time model training model optimize hote rahenge close to the reality unke jaate rahenge. Nahi, Ahmed bhai aap phir se technical mein ghus gaye hain. Mera sawaal hai, chalo main isko flip karta hoon. Abhi tak aapne I'm sure technology ke bahut saare consultants se baat ki hogi, aapne Canva waalon se baat kar li, aapne aur bahut saare logon se baat kar li. Aapne Ogilvy se baat ki hai for example, ek creative agency hai duniya ki top 10 mein aati hai. Yes. Ogilvy mein jo banda sirf jiska koi technical koi background hi nahi hai, woh banda sirf aur sirf creative director hai aur woh baith ke duniya ki badi biggest brands ke liye woh baith ke content bana raha hai ah campaigns banata hai. Bilkul. I would be curious ke jo jo um aap apna keh rahe hain na main B2B ka ek poora vertical banana chahta hoon. Canva usko jis tarah kar raha hai woh bahut achhe se kar raha hai. Matlab Canva ke usse main bahut kuch seekh sakta hoon ke unhone collaborative tools kis tarah banaye, saara kuch kiya. Mere liye question yeh hoga ke jo film making AI banana chaah raha hai na, woh kya Hollywood ke film makers se baat kar raha hai ke tumhaare workflows kya hote hain? Aur main har workflow ke component ko individually breakdown karke uske around AI kaise train karta hoon? Ya main Ogilvy ke paas jaata hoon aur main kehta hoon ke yaar jab tum ek brand ki redesign karte ho, hmm. No AI included. Correct. Tumhaare workflows kya hote hain? Tumhaare paas usmein 50 banda integrated hota hai, us har bande ka kya role hota hai? Woh kya value provide kar raha hota hai? Woh ek bande se dusre bande ke paas kis tarah se cheez jaati hai? Kyunke woh workflows have nothing to do with technology. I feel like technologies are already there to be able to automate individual workflows. Wohi aapki waali baat ke foundational models ne bahut zyada open ended har cheez de di. Right. Foundation models ke upar distribution companies ne unko wrap around karke abhi further ek ek woh kar diya. Yeh aahista aahista niche down hoga aur eventually kya hoga ke ek ek workflow ke ek ek node ke andar yeh banda jo hai woh woh color theorist hai hamara, yeh banda yeh hai, yeh banda yeh hai, yeh banda yeh hai. Har cheez ka ek micro agent hai jo ke trained hai for their own requirement. Right. Aur woh us requirement ke sawaal ke input ki basis ke upar output deta hai. Ab masla yeh hai ke jab main aata hoon mujhe maloom hi nahi hai ke maine usko prompt ke andar color theory mein kya batana hai. Uske liye mujhe ek agent chahiye jo ke specifically aaye aur aake mere se certain information extract kare taake woh apni color theory ka sirf aur sirf yeh input de sake ke yaar ismein color yeh rakhna hai. Mujhe dusre ka ek aur agent chahiye. Do you get what I'm saying? It's very non-technical. The technical capability is already there. Of course. It's just that they haven't broken it down to the workflow level to give you world class results that otherwise only very very expensive companies give. Right. Ah abhi isi cheez ko leke humne recently we have started a campaign jismein we have been speaking to you know different ah creative companies jaise aapne bataya Ogilvy hai ya Pakistan mein different companies hain, ke unke creative workflow ke andar AI kis tarah se integrate hoga, right? Ah and and we got to know different unique use cases ke yaar kisi ko kabhi kuch challenge hai, kabhi kisi ko kuch challenge hai. Again market adoption to still abhi AI film ke andar right agar hum dekhein particular ah models are started improving right. Lekin abhi in tamam jitni bhi agencies hain they are very you know picking up image models abhi le rahe hain haan ke yaar image generation behtar ho rahi hai aur usko story boarding mein use kar lete hain aur phir kisi jagah pe woh video try karte hain toh woh ho jaata hai. Toh it's just a very early stage of you know studying those marketing agencies ya creative agencies problem and you know ah fixing something. Toh yes, I get your point ke yaar kis tarah se ek ho sakta hai and isi ko just humne jab aap B2B mein expand kar rahe hain, ah recently hum discussion kar rahe hain jab aap unko dekhte hain jaise hum yeh dekh rahe hote hain ke bahut saare different e-commerce ke andar platforms imagine ko use kar rahe hain, woh different different ah you know apni bakery ke items ko ice cream ko chocolates ko bechne ke liye woh different woh cheezein karte hain. Unki jab study karte hain toh aapko yeh samajh aata hai woh ek cheez ko drive karne ke liye na 50 generation kar chuka hota hai creator, right? Usko woh ek final product nahi mil paari hoti, kabhi woh woh kuch try kar raha hai, kabhi kuch. Toh market mein iske upar jo mujhe lagta hai ke major kaam saara ka saara yeh foundational model companies ke hi end pe model improvement ka kaam rehta hai. Yeh jab ho jayega uske baad phir marketing agencies ya creative agencies, let's say ek certain agency hai jo let's say ke woh sirf ad banane mein expert hai, right? Ah e-commerce ka, right? Uske liye woh phir certain agents train ah apne internal level pe kar rahe honge aur yeh kar rahe honge, I'm sure jo badi badi companies hain, WPP hai ya rest of them. I just met one of the guy in New York, right? Woh bhi keh raha tha ke hum kisi bhi tool ko use nahi karte, hum internal ek agent bana rahe hain, hamare use case ke hisaab se humein pata hai woh kya kar rahe hain aur un sab cheezon ko woh utilize kar rahe hain. Toh market is is is is bit new there, abhi adoption jo hai woh in level ki Ogilvy bhi, Ogilvy we had a call with Ogilvy by the way. Ah they like the product lekin they they they might be you know just checking us ke yaar yeh kya kar kya rahe hain internally, right? Lekin yeh badi firms jitni bhi hain agencies hain yeh zyada se zyada apne tools ko hi ya internal agent bana rahi hain usko train karke kar rahi hain. Ab rehti hai baat jo ah SMEs level ke content creative agencies hain woh different trial and error ke saath filhal generate kar pa rahi hain. There would be some time mujhe lagta hai ke ah agent prepare jo kar rahe honge woh agencies level pe ya jaise imagine as a platform jo kar rahe honge woh teen chaar bade maybe agent ban jayenge, let's say, ad ka ek agent bana sakte ho aap right, jo bahut train hi AI ad ke upar ho raha ho. Ek ek ad hai aap keh lein jo e-commerce ya aap keh lein ke Instagram personal profiling ke upar ek woh agent ban raha hoga. Toh market is going to be there soon. Ah lekin abhi jo mujhe lagta hai ke there is no not yet right answer for anyone, right? Log abhi jaake trial and error pe generate kar rahe hain. So I think what I've understood your question. Make sense. Ah we're almost at the 2 hour 30 minute mark. Conversation jo hai hamari sabse lambi hai is is series ki. Um so I'm going to wrap this up. Um there's still so much more to talk about, it's such a phenomenal industry. Um and I think you guys are poised, inshallah, ah to be the Pakistan's first unicorn. Aapko yaad hoga 2 saal pehle na jab hamari conversation ho rahi thi toh maine us time ke upar bhi aap se ek sawaal kiya tha aur us waqt toh ek mukhtalif sawaal tha, things have changed quite a lot. Ah but I'm curious ke um you know you us time ke upar aap itna zyada bahar ah ja rahe the bas traveling ke liye but you hadn't really sort of explored out. Ab yeh hai ke ab aapne khud bhi yeh baat boli ke yaar there are certain areas, certain things jismein certain cheezein aapko chahiye. For example, Middle East mein agar aap office kholte hain toh shayad khud toh aap waise bhi ja rahe hain but aap apne bahut saare talent ko wahan par le jaake thoda sa regional ya global perspective de sakte hain, scale badha sakte hain, wahan se bahut saara talent acquire kar sakte hain. Same cheez with the US ke the the the funding and the technology and a lot of those ah things can only be done from there. So Pakistan se, yes Pakistan ah se cheez banana bhi bada important hai woh saara kuch hai lekin usse further aage shayad aap nahi le ja sakte. Um teen bhai hain, teen mein se I would have assumed ke ek na ek toh America mein baitha hoga, actual mein full time. Um so what keeps you in Pakistan right now? Do you have any plans of relocating and being full time in some other geography? And ah lastly is waqt jo aapka head count hai usmein Pakistan mein kitna hai, Pakistan mein further expansion, Pakistan mein talent jo hai iska kya woh develop ho raha hai? Um aage aap future kya dekhte hain? Kya aapko lagta hai ke yaar ek particular point mein aapko Pakistan waali identity ko shed karke ab apne aapko ek global identity banana padega ya aapko lagta hai ke Pakistan kahin na kahin ek integral part rahega aapki poori story mein? Right. Ah identity mein jaise aapne kaha ke Pakistan se hamesha technical aspect bahut zabardast chalta hai aur we will be able to you know work here as as a back end office, right? Abhi bhi hamari jo company hai 3, 3.5 saal se takreeban US se hi operate ho rahi hai aur US ke baare mein ya sitting in in you know international market is is always a plan. Ah main back and forth kaafi zyada kar raha hoon aur the the the recent challenge is with visas you know it's it's a very common thing, right? Ah ek particularly jo hamari jo founders ki mujhe lagta hai ke chemistry is tarah se zyada kaam karti hai ke ah we should be you know moving you know in some country recently jo hum plan bhi kar rahe hain ke yaar kis tarah jayein. Ah jo kaam ah US level pe hum karna chaah rahe hain recently humne jaise woh last month hi office open kiya, we have been there doing a lot of events, right? Ah main bhi kaafi zyada back and forth karta hoon. Ah ek ek jo hai na while being in US aapko bahut clear why hona chahiye, right? Ke aap wahan kis purpose ke liye ja rahe hain, right? One could be funding, one could be you know networking, right? One could be ke ji aapko talent mil sakta hai. Toh we are exploring very closely all these options, right? Ke hum talent mein yes I met very right people you know we can ah we are still exploring and ke yaar hum kis talent ko la sakte hain wahan se. Time domain ek difference hai, chalo usko bhi hum agar hata lein. Funding is already in discussion, you know going on with that. Aur abhi next month Riyadh mein Pak Launch conference ho rahi hai, wahan ja raha hoon. Ah toh founders are very you know back and forth in most of the events happening around the world. Abhi jo ek hai ke yaar kahan pe baith ke hum operate kar rahe honge jo delta produce hoga. With with this AI era agar aap yeh dekhein, some companies are building in Kazakhstan and close to unicorns, right? Ah koi kahin se bana raha hai, India se bahut kuch ban raha hai, Pakistan se bahut kuch ban raha hai. Toh abhi jo ek ek point hai ke ah ek ek founder agar wahan pe reh ke ah agar ek you know ek ek entity wahan pe establish karta hai aur wahan pe you know front end office rakhte hain toh woh ek in finally already hum plan kar chuke hain. Mere ah you know Zain Abdullah ka visa ke thode se challenges hain. Once that is resolved I think we will be kyunke plan bada aisa hota hai ke ah teen founders jab ek jab woh co-foundering role mein aap kaam karte hain toh aapko bada you know cohesive hona padta hai kuch cheezon ke andar. Ah and and we are very close to yaar ke humein Dubai rehna hai ya kyunke Dubai ka fayda yeh hai ke time domain similar hai, you can easily you know trans move people around. US ka challenge yeh hai ke agar aap wahan jaate hain toh aap kisi ko move nahi, challenges of visa one. Ah time domain is another. Toh abhi yeh explore kar rahe hain ke UK karein, kahan karein. Once we all get the visa to one place I think we will be exploring much better opportunities. Achhi baat yeh hai ke connections ah and right enablement is there. Ah bahut solid humne last 12 months mein connections particularly humne bana liye hain jahan jahan pe gap hai, you know head of Miro sort of people in different companies, you know helping us in aur resources helping us ke yaar yahan pe yeh karna hai. Agar fund aa jaata hai toh phir aapka why aur clear ho jaata hai yaar ke ab aapko is country mein 10 log chahiye, right? Ah 5 log chahiye, 8 log chahiye. Toh bahut saare jo log US move karte hain, they usually you know ya toh product ke andar they do raise money, right? Aur us projection pe hum abhi hain. Lekin until that is not done aur woh even ho bhi jaata hai uske baad bhi humne sochna hai ke humne headquarter ya front end kahan banana hai jo waqai humein fayda de sake. Toh yeh thoda sa challenging part hai. Ah will definitely take some time to ah figure out maybe within next 3 months inshallah. Toh yeah. Aur jo ah zahir hai top talent jo hai jo global perspective talent hai woh toh duniya se hi aata hai lekin jo general talent hai, LLM ka talent hai, ah AI ka talent hai, woh aapko Pakistan mein aapko lag raha hai ke sahi mil raha hai? Ah at least agar hum experienced nahi bhi hai toh aap train usko aaram se kar pa rahe hain ya aapko talent mein masle aate hain? I think ab recently humne ah China aur kya kehte hain Europe part ko discover kiya hai. Kuch log already China se kaam kar rahe hain aur different countries se. Ah Iska talluq I think yeh talent kahin matlab ek jagah pe fix nahi hai kahin pe bhi mil jata hai. Toh it's it's not about right now ke hum kis ek jagah pe talent ko rakhenge. It's about ke jahan pe zyada China kaafi acha research ke andar kaam chal raha hai. Toh planning to go there to you know recruit more people there. Toh China humein research mein bahut behtar. Pakistan mein aapko train karna padta hai lekin of course very smart people we have in in Pakistan aur jo hamari ek strategy to recruiting hai woh bade filter right log aate hain aur they are very smart to you know work on the latest things in machine learning.
Acha Ahmed bhai ek sawal main generally tamam apne guest se poochta hoon and I'd love to know your your sort of insight on that as well. Um you know you've been traveling a lot recently and you've seen a lot of things all over the world. Banda bahar jata hai na toh usmein it's very easy to fall into a negativity trap ke yaar duniya kidhar chali gayi hai, hum kidhar phanse hue hain, kaash hamare paas behtar cheezein hoti. Toh wahan pe ek negativity trap bhi aata hai aur sath mere mujh jaisa jo banda hai na main hamesha usmein se ek opportunity nikal raha hota hoon ke yaar agar nahi pohanche aur mujhe nazar aa gaya hai ke future kya hai ya kya ho sakta hai toh mujhe excitement hoti hai ke agar hum Pakistan mein yeh kar lein toh aisa ho jayega, agar hum Pakistan mein woh kar lein toh waisa ho jayega. Um is saare ke usmein main kahin na kahin project karne ki koshish kar raha hota hoon ke yaar jo is waqt ka Pakistan hai duniya mein bahut saare mumalik hain woh aaj se 30 saal pehle woh bhi waise hi thay. Koi aisi rocket science nahi hai, koi magic nahi hai, koi aisa nahi hai ke hum ek jagah phans gaye hain toh hamesha aise hi rahenge. Aur jab hum aapki kahani sunte hain toh humein yeh bhi nazar aata hai ke yaar aaj se 30 saal pehle koi Pakistani banda Pakistan mein baith ke yeh nahi soch sakta tha, yeh khwab bhi nahi dekh sakta tha, yeh imagine bhi nahi kar sakta tha, right? Aaj ki tareekh mein you know na sirf woh ho raha hai balkay aap you know you are a real example for that. Is saare ko madd-e-nazar rakhte hue, is cheez ko madd-e-nazar rakhte hue ke now with the access of information, with the access of internet, with the access of opportunities, um just like yourself, there are millions of Pakistani young kids uh who now have the access, who may not know the direction but who definitely have the access and I think as a first step that's very very important. How do you see Pakistan of 2050 uh knowing what you know now and seeing what you've seen? Agle 25 saal mein aap kaise hamare muashre ko hamari overall society ko evolve hota dekh rahe hain? Aur agar main aap se poochun ke as a young person um jo ke isi Pakistan mein pala badha, isi Pakistan mein usne excuses banaye baghair sirf opportunity ko dekha toh if you were to speak to other young people, what would you say to them?
Correct. So do point hain. One is 2050, mujhe lagta hai ke I am very positive about Pakistan, right? Jo young uh nation hamari aa rahi hai, jo universities se log nikal rahe hain aur jo padh bhi rahe hain uh bahut change hua hai mentality mein hamare. On high level hua hai, jo cheezein rehti hain woh of course bahut kuch hain jo hum kar sakte hain improve, right? Uh lekin I am very positive. Jo recently aap logon se milte hain unko unka focus change hua hai, maybe towards from government jobs towards nahi yaar ab unko traditional jobs mein nahi jana, ab unko kuch naya kuch karna hai, right? Toh usmein bahut kuch aur that's the real future look around, right? Ab jo part aapne kaha hai ke humein you know as a young kya message keh lein ya kya cheezein jo hum mein behtar karne ki zaroorat hai. Sabse important of course everyone know ke education is the enabler, is the basic basic necessity of every individual, man and woman both, right? Jab hum taleem gaon mein baith ke bache ko, shehar mein bache ko de rahe hote hain, agar woh yeh yaqeen kar le ke yaar taleem hi sab kuch hai jo mujhe alag kar sakta hai meri you know shanakht se. Aapne ek baat beech mein baat boli ke yaar aapke paas jitna bhi paisa hai, 50 saal, 60 saal ke baad woh generation ke paas se khatam ho jana hai, right? You need education to you know enable and grow further, right? Toh ab woh zamane nahi hai ke aap you know aapke paas zameenein hain toh aap you know grow karte rahenge, karte rahenge, right? One. Toh education is must, right? Agar hamare paas taleem aa jati hai toh phir vision agar hum produce kar lein yaar ke humne kuch life mein karna hai, right? As a nation keh lein, it's a of course everything is on uh question towards nation, right? Aap jo bhi aaj kar rahe hain woh nation ka part hai. Toh vision aapka kya hai individual ka, company ka, logon ka ke usne kitna uncha udna hai, right? Vision is aur third jab aapke paas vision hai, education hai toh aap kitna work hard karte hain to achieve your goals. Aapke goals hone chahiye ke yaar hum ek family agar jaise hamari example lein ke hum bhaiyon ne teenon ne mil ke agar from zero to this, right? And of course a lot to come inshallah. Agar kar liye toh why not you know people who have a lot of education, who have you know a lot of money to invest different ideas, right? Toh in teen cheezon ki zaroorat hai. Agar koi ghareeb hai toh uske paas taleem hona must hai, right? Woh 6, 7, 8 class mein, matric mein, gaon dehat mein log apni taleem khatam kar dete hain ke yaar koi future nahi hai aur wohi bechare do saal baad dhakke kha rahe hote hain apni life ke andar ek basic si opportunity ke liye. Agar wohi bacha bahut saari example hain, right? Ke jo log gaon dehat ke hote hain lekin taleem ko focus karte hain aur unka vision hota hai aur work hard karte hain then sky is the limit. Toh in cheezon pe humein yaqeen karna hai aur you know build Pakistan much better. Hum 25 saal baad yeh nahi sunna chahte ke yaar 2025 mein Muzamil ek ek vision ke sath tha ke yaar I really like what you are doing, phenomenal work, right? Aapka har baar yeh ek vision hai ke yaar Pakistan mein kyun nahi ho raha aur log kyun nahi kar rahe? Toh agar isko jo bhi kahin bhi dekh raha hai, right? Toh should understand ke yaar pain is one, ke yaar education lein, khwab rakhein aur effort karein usko achieve karne ke liye. So that's my message.
Makes a lot of sense. Ahmed bhai, thank you so much uh for sharing all that insight and coming over. Thank you so much, Muzamil. Have a nice day. And for all of you guys, uh let me know in the comment section below what are your thoughts on the conversation. Agar aapko yeh pasand aayi hai, definitely apne gird-o-pesh ke logon ko share zaroor kariye ga. Specially main kahunga share zaroor kariye ga agar aap ek student hain ya agar aap ek job pe bhi hain toh aapke gird-o-pesh agar koi student hai toh pehli cheez toh usko yeh dikhayen ke yaar tumhara potential kya hai. Uh tum kisi bhi university se kuch bhi kar rahe ho, tum Pakistan mein baithe hue ho toh naukri wala jo mindset hai, again nothing wrong with naukri by the way. Uh lekin ek naukri wala jo convention hai na, government job karunga, kuch kare baghair kuch kar loonga. Uh toh ismein jitni amount of learnings hain na ke fundamentally aapne kis tarah se cheezon ko samajhna hai, ratte-rataye se hat ke, aapne kis tareeqe se effort dalni hai, grit karna hai. There is a lot to learn, so definitely share it with people around you, particularly young people, uh so that they are able to uh you know create a better vision for their life. Um sath hi AI ke bare mein mujhe batayega ke uh are you using AI tools? Uh kaisa aapko experience raha hai? Kya aapko cheez missing lagti hai? Kya aapko lagta hai ke behtar kiya ja sakta hai? Imagine uh art jo hai woh aap logon ne use kiya hai ya nahi kiya? Would love to know some feedback on those who tried it. Uh but nonetheless, this was say Muzamil Hassan Zaidi. You were watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.
More from Thought Behind Things
Jun 30, 2026
Simon Dixon: the US empire is being wound down by design
with Simon Dixon
Simon Dixon argues the American empire isn't collapsing — transnational capital is deliberately unwinding it, and Pakistan's military has become its leverage in the transition.
Listen →
52:45 Jun 9, 2026
How Asad Mehmood landed Mattermost from Pakistan before A levels
with Asad Mehmood
Asad Mehmood walked into Mattermost before he had A levels, crossed two million dollars on Upwork, and now runs a design agency from Pakistan. He sat with Muzamil to lay out the framework underneath it: become undeniably good, then become visible, then sell outcomes.
Listen →
59:04 Jun 5, 2026
A 22-year-old Pakistani's road map to space by 2050
with Hassan Mossin
Hassan Mossin, a 22-year-old Pakistani astrophysicist training with the International Institute for Astronautical Sciences, walks Muzamil through the next twenty-five years of space — commercial stations by 2030, a lunar base by 2032, and why the bottleneck isn't food or oxygen, it's energy.
Listen →Never miss what's next.
The dispatch - new writing and conversations, straight to your inbox.
First name, last name, email - in your inbox weekly. No spam.