The CEO who got caught in a war before his career started

सामने खपतिनों साथ welcome back to another episode of Thought behind. Thanks, आज हमारे साथ मौजूद है एक बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान जिनको हमने बुलाने का, जिनको बुलाने का मक़सा दिए था कि he is doing some very very interesting work. He's the CEO of Health X which is powered by TruDoc, a multinational health care management company with operations in over 10 different countries across Middle East, Africa and Asia. खाकांत, first of all, thank you so much for being part of the show. And साथिया off camera you were talking about being born in बहावलपुर in the eighties. Tell me a little bit about your early life. अगर आपने passive income के बारे में परेशान है ख़ासकर आजकल की economy में जहां पर already cash continuously burn हो रहा है और inflation हमें मार रही है. तो I am proud to announce that this video is in partnership with समाया Financials. They are offering two very very cool trainings. Capital market fundamentals जिसमें आप stocks और mutual funds में invest करना सीखेंगे और understand करेंगे कि आखिर एक company के अंदर क्या ऐसे fundamentals होते हैं जिनको आपने देखना होता है to figure out कि वह एक अच्छी company है to invest in. और दूसरी training है technical analysis master class जिसमें आप सीखेंगे कि किस तरीके से हम different tradable assets like commodities, forex, stocks, crypto के अंदर थोड़े से पैसे लगाकर बहुत ज़्यादा पैसे बना सकते हैं. Personally यह training मैंने भी ली है and it's absolutely phenomenal. The link to the trainings are in the description below. Check them out and become financially healthy and now back to the podcast.

I went to a common school. It was taught by nuns and sisters at that time. आप early memories की बात कर रहे थे. मुझे church याद आता है, मुझे you know nuns याद आती हैं और you know just simple you know TV, TV कोई नहीं होता था, कोई phones नहीं, कुछ नहीं. You would spend you know the entire day धूप गर्मी के अंदर bicycle चलाते हुए. इधर से उधर भागना बस you know physical activity. And you grew up in the eighties? I grew up in the eighties, late eighties. I was born '85 so this is you know late eighties. अच्छा तो कराची वाले time तो बड़े turbulent time पर आप कराची गए थे. हां. यार आप कह सकते लेकिन असल में मैं जब कराची गया हूं तो I guess मैं इतना छोटा होऊंगा कि मुझे for some odd reason actually I don't have any negative memories of कराची, you know. Right. कराची is, you know, idea to me. Interesting

and so 02/1934 you you leave Pakistan. आप US जाते हैं वहां पर, किस किस जगह पर जाते हैं and tell me about the thought process. Did you apply from here? Right. Why did you apply to The US?

So thought process कोई नहीं था भाई. बड़ा simple thought process था और वह यह था कि I was not at all focused, you know, जैसे होते ना वह studious किस्म के कि यार यह करना है और उधर जाना है, यह करना है. You know, so I had my elder brother he was, you know, he was a lot smarter than me, right? He was already in The US. He was do, he had done is I think he was about to finish his computer engineering from University of Arizona. So this is West Coast. He had gotten a nice job in IBM. तो वह एक route set था और वाले साहब को मेरे ख्याल से मुझे लगता है यह होगा कि अगर मैंने इसको नहीं line पे लगाया तो किसी और line पे लग जाएगा. इस तरह के कुछ अनासिर थे. हां. So, you know, so then, you know, I was just following his his footsteps. Went to The US from a financial standpoint इस मामलात को जैसे हो चुके थे कि I think my father had like one years university fee. उन्होंने कहा भाई यह है उसके बाद देख लेना क्या करना है, कैसे करना है. तो पहुंच गए visa मिल जाता था उस वक़्त तक. तो उसके बाद फिर loan लिए jobs की जो भी किया बस हो गया, निकल गया. Right and आपने apply किया था economics में या computer engineering? Computer engineering. I was a computer engineering major for the not so long duration of two months.

And why what changed? I mean so आप गए हैं at a time when the market is booming, right? Computer, कह रहे हैं computer engineering तो थोड़ा सा hardware focus ज़्यादा होता है but even still, उस वक्त तो it seemed like कि हर बंदा वहां पर यह कह रहा होगा कि यार this is where it's at. That's right, that's right. So why'd you leave? So यार वह

you know you have to know yourself right? So see I am a fan of The US education system. US education system करता ही है कि आपको खंगाल देता है. It allows you to explore. जैसे हमारे यहां you know डब्बे में बंद होते हैं. हमारे पास choices नहीं होती. You know psychology और literature और you know art और x o x y z whatever. आप किसी भी site से आ रहे हो बेशक engineering हो या philosophy Correct. हो या जो भी आपको लेना ही लेना है. तो हुआ यह कि मैं पहले जब पहला semester के अंदर ही जब पहली engineering class में गए तो

Present self awareness at that level.

यह बड़ा simple होता है. So you know to us shiner shinier and better things. So I knew that this wasn't for me. Right. और उसके बाद शुरू हुई एक journey of exploration which was the you know thanks to The US system. उसके बाद जब मैंने दो साल basically कोई major declare नहीं किया है. It used to sit in any and whatever class that आज, मेरे लिए register नहीं भी थे, उसमें भी बैठे होते थे. Just to explore. Right. And because I did not come from a family which was, you know, के PhDs और you know इस तरह के family तो नहीं तो मुझे education का जब exposure वहां मिला you know मुझे आज भी याद है कि वहां पर जब मेरे लिए बहुत बड़ा shock यह था कि जब मैं library में गया you know अस्सी library में was so huge I was like यार यह कब शुरू होती और कब खत्म होती है? तो उनका जी खत्म तो कभी नहीं होती है twenty four seven में और like six floors of books and stuff. And people were actually there. क्योंकि यहां पर आप बना भी देनी चाहिए. नहीं नहीं नहीं वह culture और था. So explore किया तो what happened was interestingly enough I developed an interest for languages. तो बोले आज भी याद है कि Arabic से मेरा language का love शुरू हुआ and I just never left it and then one thing led to another and in the four years that I was there I ended up studying arabic then french then spanish. वहाँ पर ये होता है कि अगर आपको हालांकि बहुत बड़ी university है one of the largest universities in The US, 200 majors but अगर आप अब यह check करें choice का element और freedom का element, liberty का element कि वहां पर university से मुझे उस वक्त याद है कि choice देती थी कि अगर आपको कोई listed majors में तो समझ नहीं आ रहा so you can create your own major So, anyways I made a degree out of those languages and then I did a, you know, double major on in economics. Right. और वह मैं मज़ाक़ मेरा यह था कि वह purely नौकरी के लिए गीती कि कहलो कुछ तो दिखाने के लिए हो नौकरी के लिए. हां. So that's what I graduated with. And were you working side by side?

So my understanding is you had the tuition was paid for for a year. Yeah. For the rest of the three years and the cost of living. Yeah. How were you? Was that student loans or was it? Mostly student loans, jobs. Yes, I was working,

you know, जाते ही सबसे पहला मुझे याद है interview मैंने food panda में दिया था, restaurant होता था. अच्छा. लेकिन university Boulevard पर university है restaurant होता था और you know, but I got lucky I got a job in the library, remember? Right. So my love for the library, so मेरी लग गई नौकरी you know बड़ी, मैं उसको बड़ा white collar नौकरी समझता था, right? और मुझे याद है पता नहीं कितने सात आठ dollar per hour कोई, कोई एक दो dollar ज़्यादा होती. पता नहीं ऐसा लगा कि ऐसे कोई lottery लग गई है. हाँ, anything बीस घंटे allowed होते थे उस time के ऊपर. That's right, that's so i-twenty, twenty hours. I had and remember i-i had night shifts right? Spending nights in the library did something to me. I don't know it's just it still gives me goosebumps, right? And because of this exposure, I developed a habit for reading, a love for reading. वह वक्त पहला था ज़िंदगी में जब किताब उठाई पढ़ने के लिए, right? और फिर फिर रखी नहीं. फिर उसके बाद, you know, one thing let you know that and I was most more interested in what was going on outside of the class aside from my languages courses. So, you know, library was by my classroom. Right and throughout आपने जो चार साल है उसमें कुछ ना कुछ, were you working consistently?

जी जी Somewhere or the other? जी so languages

तो मैं करता रहा ना. उसके बाद so if if I were to recall an episode मुझे आज भी distinctly याद है कि I I chanced upon this book You know, it was this thin sort of a book. The book is called Motorcycle Diaries. Right. Right? It's by this guy called Che Guevara. Who is a Cuban revolutionary. Right. Who is a world, you know. क्योंकि बहुत सारी लोगों की shirtओं पर होते उन्होंने पता नहीं होता है. वह पता नहीं कौन है. वह असल में वह बंदा था. उसकी लिखी हुई किताब थी मेरे हाथ पड़ी तो मैंने वह जब पढ़ा उसका memoir था वह. His time he was a doctor from Argentina, went to Mexico, met Fidel Castro. Then you know young guys, realistic guys, joined the Cuban revolutionary form and यह पूरा एक communist पूरा सिलसिला चला. Anyways, so I fell in love with that story, right? Right. So I, that peaked interest in me of travelling. अच्छा. Right? And while I was in The US then I started, you know, जैसे कहते ना वह ख़ारिश होने लगी कि यार निकलना है, कुछ कुछ देखना है, कुछ दुनिया में है. US के अलावा, right? So then I chanced upon again and we'll talk about chance and fate, right? So I have a theory on that as well. But anyways, so I met this friend of mine who had just come back from I think Ethiopia or something. जब Pakistan में हम रहते हैं तो हम तो सोचते भी नहीं ना. भाई हम तो सीधा यहां से London या अमरीका पहुंच गए तो बस लग गई, lottery लग गई भाई. You know, अब बस नौकरी करेंगे, dollar कमाएंगे, right? So anyways she told me about this experience with the UN that she had had, right? And I was like यह कैसे है मतलब यह कौन सी दुनिया? अच्छा UN की भी एक दुनिया थी और फिर वह remote Africa में आई थी और you know she was white but she was all tanned like कि भाई यह क्या कहां से आ रही क्या हुआ? Then उसने अपनी कारगुज़ारी सुनाई मुझे, right? So then then I was like ok यार if she can do it maybe I can do it as well. अच्छा मैं पाकिस्तानी पाकिस्तानी passport guide post 09/11 remember? You know that in myamid et cetera. Experience this. And I basically stumbled upon this opportunity, UN volunteer opportunity which was this time in Lebanon, Beirut. जैसे अब मैं दो हज़ार छह की बात कर रहा हूं. It was for my experience, right? Right. तो हुआ गया कि उन्होंने ख़ैर दे दिया मुझे. तो मैं मैंने I remember student jobs और jobs वगैरह करके पैसे save किए. कुछ भाई से पकड़े पहुंच गया मैं. Right. And that's where everything turned and if you want I can get into that. Yeah, go for it. I would love to know more about अच्छा. So, okay. Now be careful what you wish for. अच्छा, उसके बाद यह होता है कि now the night that I land, this guy comes, the guy that came to pick me up, ठीक है? युवं ने भेजा हुआ था किसी को मेरी रात दो तीन बजे flight land की थी बेरूत में. So, I could speak Arabic, remember? Right. तो मेरी उससे बातचीत शुरू हुई हल्की पुल्की यह वह. लेकिन for some odd reason I said यार can I instead go to you with the camp instead of you going to the hotel? हां. तो मुझे आज भी याद है और इस किताब के अंदर यह मैंने इसमें ज़िक्र किया you know, इस वाकईय का कि उसने एकदम गाड़ी रोगी और you know he like he was like surprised कि what यह क्या पुछ लिया इसने मुझसे, right? हां. So I thought तरीका had gotten pissed off or something. अच्छा आपने अरबों को अरबी बोलते देखा होगा वैसे ही खासी aggressive language लगती है. हां. तो वह फिर उसने phone निकाला और phone करने लग गया, right? कहीं मैंने कहा भाई गड़बड़ हो गई है मुझे लग रहा है कोई गलती हो गई है उल्टा काम पड़ गया. तो anyways मुझे बाद में समझ ही आया कुछ I figured out कि he was asking permission for me to go through the camp because वह camps ऐसे होते हैं वह इलाका घर की तरह है. साठ सत्तर साल से camps है ना अब यह concrete अच्छा they cannot, Palestinians cannot own land in Lebanon. So what they do is अब चौथी generation आ गई तो they build vertically. They can't expand outward, right? Right. तो वह concrete structure पर concrete structure right इस तरह बने बड़े उन्हीं camps के अंदर? उन्हीं camps के अंदर ही वह बने. तो मुझे वह अपने quarter में ले गया. तो उस रात मैं उस quarter में गया और मैं बस निकला नहीं. फिर मैं ऐसा जब जितना वक़्त था मैं उस अपने driver के साथ, उसी camp में, उसी उसके quarter में साथ रहा और फिर बहुत कुछ हुआ. वह वह एक अलग बात है फिर और लंबी हो जाएगी.

वह चलेगा बता दें. Let let's go into that. Ok, so

long story short यह है कि तकरीबन मेरे land करने के बाद, मैं समझता हूं दो महीने के अंदर अंदर आपको याद होगा दो हज़ार छह में लुब्नान में जंग हुई थी. Right. Israel ने attack किया था Lebanon को और एक it's called the July war. Right. So basically when the war started I was in that refugee camp with that guy with the Palestinians because I was working with them. So वह फिर मैं जंग में फ़ंस गया. अच्छा फिर जंग में जब फ़ंसते हैं आप वह जंग मैंने आपने बड़ी पहले आप land lock करते हैं. ठीक है. अच्छा फिर sea sea blockade और फिर आप बंबारी करते हैं air से. Right. So they used to shell. They started from the South Of Lebanon which is on the border of Israel, right? उनकी skimmershes चल रही होती हैं, right? But then the bombing came to Beirut. Right. अच्छा, in the South Of Beirut is where the यह हिज्बुल्लाह जो कि शियायत militia Iran back, Iran aligned, right? और Palestinians का hold है उधर. उनकी alliance है एक तरीके से. ठीक है. अच्छा लमनान की भी बहुत एक interesting history है. Civil war रही है. उनकी आज भी बहुत मसाल है. हां. तो when the bombing started, it started from that very area of that camp, right? Right. और the southern part of Beirut. So, so I, so it was like, you know, it was, I was right in the middle, right? हां. So then फिर कहानी शुरू हुई वहां से escape की कि इन लोगों ने फिर क्योंकि मैं वहां रहकर उनसे relationship build किए हुए थे. You know, वहां पर आपको इजाज़तें लेकर फिरना होता है, ऐसे नहीं आप आ जा सकते, right? Right. So, knew that I was there and he had protected me like family this guy, right? और उसी ने फिर at the end of the day passageway मेरा, you know, secure किया. फिर मैं UN की convoy के ज़रिए. तकरीबन मुझे लगता है मैं अगर याद करूं तो तकरीबन दस बारह दिन लगे होंगे. अच्छा. इस तरह से पूरे सब से end to end, right? सब करते करते फिर लुबनान से निकले मुझे याद है Syria, Syria से Flights वगैरह सारी were off. No no no, this is all on foot, by road, convoys. इसमें बड़े बड़े किस्से हुए हैं, और भी बहुत कुछ हुए हैं क्योंकि they were bombing everything that was moving. Right. Because in a war situation the opponent thinks that you're transporting either fighters or weaponry or something. They basically, you know, and you know, it's it's like a David Watts' Goliath situation over there, right? और इसके political reasons aside हैं. Actually, वह भी इसके, you know, एक मेरा एक मानना यह है कि actually this is not a people, I think most people think that this is a, you know, sort of a war between religion. It's religions, right? It's not. It's a it's a war of dignity, right? So, it's it's a very nationalistic sort of a war, right? Right. And that's a separate conversation. But so anyways that happened to me, right? And when that happens to you आपकी दुनिया पलट जाती है, right?

और आपका जो view point है सब चीज़ों को देखने का जाविया बदल जाता है कि यार यह मामला क्या है? मतलब I could have I could have been dead right? That idea for a lot of people they are just living एक एक thought के साथ कि यह structure है दुनिया का और मैं उस structure में आराम से maneuver through करता गुज़र जाऊंगा but the idea that you could see all of this very very closely. हम सब देख रहे होते हैं लेकिन पढ़ रहे होते हैं और it's just a very alien thing. अच्छा किसी के साथ हो रहा है. Yeah.

May I offer you an example? Yeah yeah of course. हमारे पीछे में I couldn't help but notice this aquarium, right? Right. I talk about this in the book as well. यह जो अभी हम बात कर रहे थे ना अगर आप developed और developing दुनिया की मिसाल ने तो analogy जो मैंने दी थी इसमें भी और वैसे भी. So let's look at this aquarium, right? Aquarium का माहौल क्या होता है? It's a controlled environment, right? That means इसको अगर वक़्त पर साफ़ नहीं करेंगे, मछली को वक़्त पर खाना नहीं देंगे और पानी यही बदलेंगे तो मछली मर जाएगी, right? Right. So, इस environment में दो और दो चार हैं. Variables कम हैं, right? Right. अच्छा, now compare this environment with the natural habitat of the open sea, let's say. Right. वहां पर क्या है बड़ी मछली छोटी के पीछे है, खाना hunt करना है, temperature currents हैं. You know, this is world unto itself, lots of variables. Yeah. Yeah. Have to navigate that world to survive, right? So, मैंने यह देखा उस जंग में भी और वैसे भी मेरा उसके बाद मेरा बहुत सफ़र रहा ज़्यादातर developing emerging markets में कि our world is like that open sea and the developed world for all the systems and controls and processes is much like an aquarium. Now there is good in that as well because you learn about systems, processes and everything in the developed world. That's why because it's a control system. पर हमारी दुनिया में और उस दुनिया में उस वक़्त मैंने क्या देखा कि दो और दो चार भी हो सकते हैं, दो और दो आठ भी हो सकते हैं, सिफ़र भी हो सकते हैं. हां. एक query हम और control environment में आपको पता है दो और दो चार ही होंगे यार मेहनत करूंगा, यह डालूंगा, a और b और तो यह वन जाएगा. हां हां. So that's a different life, right? And I, this is a personal belief of mine, I think fundamentally us human beings are essentially at our core all saltwater fish. That means we are made and born to live in a natural habitat, right? इसीलिए आप देखते हैं कि जब हमारे यहां लोग बाहर जाते हैं, right, Developed world में वैसे तो वह एक तो यह बात बहुत अच्छा करते हैं क्योंकि अगर आप अभी समंदर की मछली यहां डालेंगे इसके अंदर it will master this environment. Yeah. सबको tension दे देगी यह. Yeah yeah yeah. So, us immigrants and sons and daughters of immigrants that's why we do well because we have that adversity element in us. Yeah. But then at some point, people also feel suffocated. There is this, यार, मज़ानी आ रहा, you know, because we're so used to the variables of the open sea. Mhmm. Right? That's what gets us going. Right? So I recognize through that experience and very early in my life that I'm a saltwater fish and I belong in the open sea. So from that point onwards, it was me all about searching, you know, being or feeling alive in in this part of the world and feeling not so much alive. It's not like उदर मुहार के मसाल नहीं, वह अलग नोएचर के मसाल हैं, right? So, yeah, that's that's how I I, you know, And better to read this was what what year was this? This was 2006. No, as an academic year कौन सा चल रहा था आपका उस time? हां, academic year I must have been in the second year of my college. So that's a sophomore year. अच्छा. So, sophomore junior. Interesting.

So, you graduate in let's say 2008. Yes. In economics with the global financial meltdown. Right. So what did you do after that? I mean did you get a job or did you? Yeah.

So look look I mean मेरा मेरा बड़ा simple था. So by the way what I have not told you is that every year after that so 2007 I was in Latin America. Right. I was in Costa Rica. Still with the UN? Yes similar. Because I had gotten this again remember मेरे खद खदूत तो मेरे letters नहीं रुकते थे. ठका ठक letters चल रहे होते थे and because I had built this profile and I had lived I was you know an intriguing person at that time right? Right. Which by the way has a negative connotation as well because you become a person of interest कि भाई यह क्या करा था वहाँ? पाकिस्तानी passport अमरीका में you know post 09:11 में. Yeah, यह तो UN के नाम पर जाना ही है किसार क्या कर था? हां, so वह risk लेने पड़ते हैं मैंने लिए, right? और अलहम्दुल्लाह, you know, I was meant to go through those experiences. So anyways I went to UNESCO in Latin America 2007. Spent a summer in Costa Rica, you know Cuba. Cuba remember because of Che, I had that, I had studied them inside out. I wanted to see कि communism बला क्या है आखिर? होता क्या है? You know, तो मैंने जाकर देखा वह. How was your experience there?

Is Cuba still

communist and? So it is a communist country, right? तो जब मैं गया था उस वक्त तो ban था अमरीका से जाना. तो मैं तो इस तरह से गया था कि Costa Rica से जाकर फिर Costa Rica वापस आया और फिर वहां से अब आप जा ही नहीं सकते थे ऐसे. Right. और लेकिन communist country आज भी वह है. Fidel Castro उस वक्त भी ज़िंदा था जो कि you know अब अब उनकी वफात हो गई है. But it was a very different experience. Cuba is frozen in time. You go there and at least at that time and I am sure it feels like it's like nineteen sixties. अच्छा. आपको गाड़ियां, आपको जो products हैं और मतलब it's like capitalism is not there, right? हम लोगों के लिए इतना used to है choice और यह वह. हां. So one reaction that I had was that I felt suffocated. क्योंकि I was not used to this world, right? And then the other was that there was this beauty which was which was frozen in time, right? जैसे, you know, लोगों ने कपड़े क्या पहने हो, चलते कैसे हैं, बात कैसे करते It's like you're back in time, you know? It's like a time capsule. Beautiful. I mean, you speak about North Korea but nobody speaks about Cuba which is also apparently the same thing then. Yeah, so Cuba का story बड़ी interesting है. यह Soviet Union जब तक थी, तब तक तो उनके बड़े अच्छे time थे क्योंकि they had that back. जब वह टूटी है, तब उनकी गड़बड़ शुरू हो गई थी in the sense कि obviously, you know, they they're they're they're not as prosperous. They were never prosperous but things difficulties started, right? But yet, by the way, some people probably not won't know this. Yet through all that adversity they were able to produce you know models of brilliance. For example Cuba has some of the I think one of the world's best healthcare ecosystems in the world. अच्छा. हां जी आपने note किया आप शायद आपको पता हो या ना पता हो Pakistan में जब earthquake आया था दो हज़ार पाँच वाला तो Cuba से भी doctors आए थे. दुनिया भर में जाते हैं Cuba. Cuba medical scholarships देता है. हमारे लोग भी जाते हैं. आज भी जाते हैं. Right? अच्छा. Because they have such a efficient and a good health care ecosystem. By way of being a communist country everything is free, right? In that sense, right? उसकी quality सफर करती है लेकिन healthcare is one of their, you know, things. So, you know, so it was very interesting. So, Latin America खैर, अच्छा मैं इधर भी मैं locals के साथ रहा, right? I never stepped into a hotel. A, I couldn't afford hotels. So बड़ा simple choice थी और दूसरा मेरा यह भी एक पंगा था कि यार because of the language I could speak Spanish and I, you know, so I was always living with locals, right? So, you know, I talk about this as well कि in Cuba I lived with a stage actor. अच्छा. वह बड़ा character. इसने एक सारी दुनिया में ऐसे character मिले मुझे. So, you know, locals और उन्होंने अपनी कहानियां सुनाईं और यह वह, x y z. So, that was Latin America. Then you asked me कि job 2008 किससे पहले? फिर मुझे job से पहले मुझे दो हज़ार आठ में यह पता था कि मैंने अमरीका नहीं रहना. उसकी वजह मैंने आपको बताया saltwater fish, right? I I wanted to be back, right? And then of course personal reason. Back to Pakistan? Back to Pakistan. I wanted to, I initially wanted to back be to be back to Pakistan. उसकी वजह वाद कुछ personal भी थी, you know, और वैसे भी I wanted, I felt more alive, right? When I was here, right? So I was like यार पता नहीं क्या होगा लेकिन कूद जाते हैं right. So और जब आप young होते हैं ना you know so I say youth most people confuse youth as a liability I think it's an asset. आप इंसानी तारीख उठा के देखेंगे जिसने भी जो भी काम किया है उसने वो जवान ने क्यों किया है क्योंकि वह सोच बाद में नहीं होती subconscious level पर होता है कि कून हां. You know और उसके अंदर बहुत कुछ इंसान कर जाता है. Right? So वह मेरा youthful एक idealism भी था. So anyways so उससे वह मैं आने लगा था तो उससे पहले मुझे एक opportunity आ गई और वह masters की थी मेरे University of France, Paris के अंदर. Because of this background that I had accumulated, again I became an interesting, you know, subject for them. The masters was, the medium was French, I could speak French. The masters was diplomacy and strategic negotiations which was very interesting. People from sixty, seventy countries in Paris and it was a full ride. तो मैंने कहा भाई Paris है और वह भी free है तो यह तो पर इस समय UN का background was very That's right.

Obviously, obviously. So, so I went to Europe. बड़ा because I have seen the profile. It's masters degree in management law, economics, diplomacy and strategic negotiations. That's a mouth ful, right? Yeah, it is. It is. चलिए management I understand law, economics. I'm assuming these were courses and that you were able to do that. That's right. Diplomacy on some level even that people understand what strategic negotiation and how is that a an academic skill? So negotiations

essentially strategic negotiations are of of effectively two kinds. एक तो होती है commercial negotiations, दूसरी होती है political negotiations, right? So political negotiations हम सब जानते हैं कि भाई let's say war चल रही है और truce करवाना है या cease fire करवाना है. तो it's a specialized skill set that you are taught. How to, you know, read the room, negotiate, identify interest across the room and you know, blah blah blah. Commercial negotiations होती हैं फिर दूसरी commercial nature की लेकिन उसके अंदर भी जैसे for example, you know, कोई stalemate है मिसाल के तौर पर. You know, उसको कितना से negotiate करना, arbitration का एक flavor आ जाता है इसके अंदर. तो वहां पर courses हमारे बड़े interesting होते थे. So we were taught by you know serving military men, right? The French army. We were taught by politicians, senators. We were taught by you know academics, you know जो professors, etc, political science etc and the subject matter was always concerning negotiations that different simulations that how would you navigate read the situation and be that negotiator that you want to be out. उसमें कौन किस किस्म के लोग थे? Right? Mostly actually I was an odd ball out. Mostly they were people from diplomatic cause of different work, you know, countries in the world. You know, people from military, you know, and and allied, you know, associations or organizations, you know, and और मेरी तरह के एक दो लोग होंगे. और यह French में था? Yeah, medium was French, right? Mostly-mostly French because, know, Europe के अंदर यह अपनी ज़बानों को which is a good thing promote करते हैं तो. In fact, the only reason why I was there was that I could speak French, right? Right. And and my friendship drastically improved by way of being there. अच्छा जो European education system है वह completely opposite है. US से US is, you know, European is less structured I would say, right? It's it's more out there, outside the classroom and frankly I was there to experience Europe which I had not been before. So I took that year to basically उस वक़्त मुझे मुझे याद है. मैं उस वक़्त तो ख़ैर नहीं उससे पहले से मैं you know इकबाल का बड़ा fan था तो मैंने वो वो सारा वो जो मुस्लिम Spain और वो सारा मेरा you know Morocco से etc. So we trace those रूस. I I some with my some friends. Know so हम basically वह साल हमारा exploration का साल था. That's probably the best year of my life that, you know, I travel and explore. I think इसमें one thing that I find really interesting,

for a lot of young people, very small thing. वह यह है कि, you had an experience. एक तो just this idea that took that plunge of going to these UN programs and, exploring and and adding that flavor helped you out. For a lot of young people वह जो अपना academic background से, professional background से सोचो बड़ा एक linear के संगा होता है. Yeah. जी हमने यह degree कर ली, हमने यह grades कर ली, हमने यह वह कर लिया और उसमें वह flavor कोई नहीं होता and more often than not people are looking for flavor. Right. Compete करना है आपने एक बड़े वो. लेकिन you add that and you add french and suddenly now you are competing with a very specific audience and उसमें आपके any sort of innovative experiences suddenly rank you at a very higher That's right. And so a lot of young people in Pakistan if now in the digital age if they are able to let's say learn German or Swedish or Mhmm. तो they could potentially open doors for a lot of opportunities.

So, बिल्कुल. So so actually I was second that देखिए जब आप कोई ज़बान पढ़ते हैं ना तो आप ज़बान नहीं पढ़ते. आपके the world opens to you. So their entire culture, history, you know, a world opens up to you. Language is just a medium, right? एक तो यह बात हुई. दूसरी बात जो experience की बात है ना आप देखिए I now am in the corporate world, right? And I can tell you that अगर आपको education कुछ सिखाती है ना तो वह it's what it's supposed to do is actually to teach you decision making skills, right? और decision making, the best decision making at the highest of levels does not happen by the way from experience only. It happens from exposure. Now what is the difference between experience and exposure? Experience is limited to you. Let's say you are a content creator. You know everything that there is to know about content creation. Today I have interacted with you. Have been exposed to your experience. Right. मेरे exposure में इज़ाफ़ा हुआ है. So, जब decision making आप कर रहे होते हैं higher level के ऊपर, the more exposure you have, you have this almost intuitive sense of decision making which comes in much much handier than your own experience because your experience will always be limited. Yeah. To coming back to your example, by way of you interviewing so many people, you have accumulated probably so much knowledge and exposure that your decision making would be far better than if you're restricted yourself to one field. Right. इसलिए the message to young people is whatever you are studying, whatever you are doing, do that, but always expose yourself to the other. Mhmm. Interesting.

So you were there for a year? I think वहां Europe का model is Yes. Year master's. That's right. That's right. And then what next? So before I could come back to Pakistan,

I got another opportunity which was part of the, you know, kind of, connected with my master's program. This was another UN volunteer experience which was in West Africa, Senegal. This is the United Nations Industrial Development Organization. People probably have heard about डाकर डाकर अली का हमने सुना होता है. So I was in डाकर, Senegal. This is the western most tip of West Africa, right? Right. तो along the coast and stuff. So I spent a summer This is more rainforesty? No no no, this is this is desert, सहारा desert and then coastline. So desert and coastline you know kinda meet at one point. यह वह जगह है जब जब slave trade शुरू हुआ था ना तो यह सारे Africa से यह भी एक बड़ी interesting कहानी है कि stay slave hunting होती थी. यह आपस में ही tribes वह कहते ना अपने आप जब तक आप अपने आप को ना बर्बाद करें कोई नहीं कर सकता. तो these tribes, warring tribes used to capture slaves from each you know respective tribes. फिर यह बेचते थे आगे you know the to the white man whatever और यह aggregate होते थे you know इसी जगह पर जहां पर Western Africa की Western most tip जो कि सेनेगाल के अंदर है यहां से पर ships across the Atlantic slave trade जहां से mostly होता था. So बड़ी history, culturally rich जगह है, बहुत कुछ वहां पर तारीख़ है. So I spent the summer there. I've worked with the United Nations industrial development organization. They did a project very interesting, you know, just skipping through details and that's when after that I went came back to Pakistan. Right, 2009. 02/1010

हो गया होगा. Right. Yeah. What did you do immediately after that? Now you have a bachelor's in three languages in economics. You have a master's in five different areas. So,

other words you can say you are now quite unemployable.

Specially about the पाकिस्तानी market, It's a very standardized market कि भाई तू computer science कर आगे मेरे coding कर दूं, doctor बनाओ.

And so I moved back to लाहौर, right? और वाले साहब एक छोटा सा business था. तो basically I didn't do anything. If we were to, if I were to be frank, I I took and I was exhausted by the way. Right. You know, all of this exposure wears you down so I needed a breather, right? और तो एक साल तो ऐसे ही निकल गया एक तरीके से और obviously I supported him in the business. He was into rice trading at that point but it was an exploratory year, right? क्या छप क्या करना to figure out. Right. So in that year I did a lot of experimentation, Right? Interesting. उस वक्त Pakistan के अंदर, you know, नया नया बहुत कुछ एक nationalist किस्म का वह, you know, चल रहा है. Democracy भी store हुई थी and हां, exactly exactly. तो मैंने भी I dabbled in, right? So, you know, I'm not going to go into specifics but, you know, certain political parties, certain, you know, nationalist parties who were all in the name of, you know, Pakistan Pakistan, right? Because I wanted to contribute, right? Right. So, I experimented with a lot of such outlets. Ultimately did not, could see saw through them, right? क्योंकि वह ज़्यादा basically अलमिया हमारा यह है कि वह अपने अपने लिए ज़्यादा होता और वह बाद में फिर होता है कि अपना projection हो जाए पहले. उसके बाद, you know, चलो वह भी हो जाएगा, right? So, I I saw through that because of the exposure, remember? Right. Had to, so I could, you know, I filtered through very quickly basically. Yeah. Right? And at that time, from a commercial sense and also by the way I should add that at this at this time I was also thinking of getting married, right? So I was about to get married. तो जब शादी होनी होती तब भी नौकरी तो करनी पड़ेगी, you know, and कुछ तो कमाना पड़ेगा. So I'm basically through a social circle met this friend who is now a friend of a company which was one of the first portfolio companies of Acumen Fund. Right. Which is a American venture capital firm. You know, so I joined them, right, in लोहौर. This is low income housing. अच्छा, उस वक़्त सलाह बाए हुए थे. Right. दो हज़ार दस के. तो this company was due into low income housing and disaster rehabilitation, right? So I joined them and basically was meant I because you know I I enjoyed the action, right? I miss the action. So यह कोट अद्दू और मुजफ़रगर से आगे यह सारा फिर मैं वहां से मेरी journey शुरू हुई Paris से. कोटद्दू सीधा.

Right. You know so so that is How the do they do? I mean are they still doing low cost housing? Yes, I think they are they are And वह क्या होता था? वह

sustainable material वगैरह use करके करते थे या how? उसके दो models थे. एक तो यह था कि flood villages थे, right? So that means that's temporary housing, you know, immediate disaster relief, right? So, model villages, prefabricated structures, you know, sustainable structures, solar energy को use करना x y z, इस तरह से वो रहा होता था. The second was the commercial line which was low income actually housing for, you know, as, you know as people would know or most people would know probably the housing is a big issue, right? I think I don't want to misquote but I think about 10,000,000

Housing units are required. That's right. Right now, like right now and यह with the youth population getting into the you know job market and then eventually वह हमारा जो historical हुआ है ना घर बनाया उसमें पांच बच्चे रह रहे हैं. Like there is a cultural shift as well where nuclear families are becoming a thing. Actually there is a requirement for a lot more housing. Correct. Then we imagine. And ज़्यादातर होती क्या है हमारे अलमिया यह है कि यह speculative

you know housing या buying या purchasing होती है. वह चंद हाथों में वह पांच दफा ownership बदलता है. वह value कहीं चली जाती है. घर की जिसको ज़रूरत है उसको मिलता नहीं है, right? Right. So, यह इनके projects थे बड़े interesting you know low income housing के ऊपर कि आपको So I did did that for about a couple of years, right? So it was very interesting, yeah. Right and what,

give me your your your quick sort of hop

through different organizations and what it's So so then after that I basically delve into sort of like an entrepreneurial project. Right? So, again, met this guy who had just resigned from Siemens, right, who transformer division. You know, so basically spent the next two, three years setting up a manufacturing unit, distribution transformers you know out there in लाहौर, right? Very different. Yeah yeah. So, we was you know I I would say because जो मैं experimentation की बात कर रहा था ना मेरी साथ साथ चल रही थी. So, I really spent this I think the first I would say three to four years was more of you know experimentation कि Pakistan में करना क्या है? हां. वह niche जगह जगह बनाना अपनी, right? समझना कि करना क्या है. And then I had gotten married as well, right? मेरे बच्चे भी जल्दी हो गए थे, you know. So, you know, so I kind of was in this cocoon, right? Back into the cocoon, right? And I was liking it, right? So, साथ ख़री entrepreneurial project किया. You know, we essentially built the company from ground up, built the unit, sold it, moved on. यहां पर एक बड़ी interesting कहानी होती है और वह यह है कि वह आपको मेरे ख़ुदूद याद होंगे. बिल्कुल ऐसा ही है. So, at that time I wrote a famous letter to this guy. I don't know if I should name him or not, but big big wig, right? पाकिस्तानी at the global stage in the finance world, you know, at the top of his game running a very large private equity firm, investment firm, right? And rubbing shoulders with the likes of Bill Gates, Richard Branson, यह वह. So I looked at that guy and, you know, I was like, यार, wow. You know, कराची का बंदा यहां से गिया हुआ and then, you know, very, fairly quickly was rubbing shoulders with the who's who of the finance world. And he, I learned from him, he talked about this concept called impact investing. अच्छा वह, you know I know who you're talking about. Yeah. Right. So so so, you know, I was I was very intrigued. It was very inspiring that idea कि यार, how do you use capital to create capital? Sure, but also create impact. Know whatever you want. यहां पर आपके वह Cuban experience जो है वह आपके अंदर सीपिन करा था. That's right. तो वह वह जो कीड़ा था वह कभी नहीं मरा था ना? वह आज भी नहीं मरा वैसे तो. So, you know and we'll connect that those dots. So, essentially, I remembered even to this day I wrote a letter, you know, and I did not know the guy's address or anything, ऐसे. अच्छा, यह भी जो sun रहे I mean, a handwritten letter or is this like a नहीं, type email type type type करके. Yeah. So anyways I write this letter. I guessed the email address of this guy at the top of his game at this time. Not only वह email address पहली attempt में से First ही name dot last name at. Yes, exactly यह. Exactly. Firstname.lastname@company.com. बड़ा simple. देखा भाई यह you know I am this guy and you know this is very interesting and I want to do this whatever. So not only did the email address the letter reached him वह email address भी ठीक था पहली attempt में. उसको मिला भी उन्होंने देखा भी और that that level he responded and basically I got a call that I think it's twenty four forty eight hours from some of his guys because he had offices in like 70 countries right. Right. So I got an a call from कराची कि यार आपने फलाने फलाने से आपको लिखा था तो आप बता रहे है ही मिलने. मैंने कहा यह कैसी है भई? So you know I was in लाहौर and I like okay alright this this might be something and now this is 02/1516 Right. And that's where I really got into what I currently am doing, right? Mhmm. Which is I I'm in the world of health care, right? Right. But this was then I joined this organization called the अमन Foundation. So people in Karachi will know, you know, brilliant organization, you know, some of the top notch quality programs. So it was running a private ambulance network. The only real ambulance network before even one rescue one one two two, right? In सिन्ध and कराची और अब ख़ाफ़ी expand कर चुका है. On on the other side, vocational training. क्योंकि primary care के ऊपर तो बात होती है लेकिन इतनी jobs कहां से create होंगी? बहुत सारा तबका जो afford नहीं भी कर पाता universities, university education फिर jobs create करना. So vocational training का बहुत ही state of the art vocational training institute that you know with the likes of you know any foreign institute, right? In कराची, in करंगी, you know. So it was like this you know I have this thing that I say and I talk about this in the book as well you know that you know we swim in a sea of mediocrity surrounded by islands of excellence. So it was an island of excellence within the sea of mediocrity, right? और यह आप मिसाल by the way लोगों पर भी डाल सकते हैं. Pakistan में कहते हैं ना लोग talent बहुत है. मैं यह कहता हूं talent तो है. Pakistan में width है, depth नहीं है. फ़र्क क्या है? Width होती है potential होना. जब potential develop हो जाता है तो depth आती है. Right. Right? So so we have also by the way I still believe to this day these islands of excellence within our human capital in this country but they are islands, they are sparsely located. The the change happens when those when you connect those islands. Right? Mhmm. This is a hard thing to do, but but besides so, anyway, so I joined that organization, and and that's what whereby was my segue into health care. I spent about four, I think four or five years with them. I think four years, almost four years. And then इसमें भी एक बड़ी interesting कहानी है. तो जो backers थे, जो इस organization के, they went into financial trouble big time, big big controversy and global controversy for whatever reasons, right? और हुआ यह कि यह भी आपको शायद, you know, interesting लगे बात connected to another concept of mine, right? So I say fire is good. आग जो है लोग आग से भागते हैं, right? मैं कहता हूं आग अच्छी चीज़ है. वह क्यों अच्छी चीज़ है? आग आटे को रोटी बनाती है. अगर वह आटा आग से ना गुज़रा रोटी तो नहीं वन सकता मेरे आपकी किसी काम का नहीं है. Right. पर वही आग उसको राख भी कर सकती है. So therefore the risk, right? So in other words वहां आग लग गई. ठीक है जी? अच्छा अब आग लग गई आपको यह तो अंदाज़ा हो गए होंगे? मैंने आगे बहुत सारी देखी भी नहीं. हां. मैंने कहा यार यह तो you know when most people basically was like यार निकलो भाई. हां, abandon ship. हां, तो मैंने कहा भाई अभी तो रुकना है. यही तो time है रुकने का because I had seen what fire does when you, you know, manage it. So यह उस वक़्त था justice साकिब नुसार का दौर था. Mhmm. और आपको याद होगा कराची में एक वाक्या हुआ था. बड़ा famous और बड़ा अफसोस नाक वाक्या. एक बच्ची छह सात साल की कराची के अंदर mugging के अंदर उसका murder हो गया था मतलब she was shot accidentally shot by the police as the mugging happened तो वह मां बाप so anyways तो ये जब गोली लगी तो अब कराची इतना बड़ा शहर emergency network कोई है नहीं उतना बड़ा नहीं अमन was the only you know kind of credible real ambulance you know other बाकी तो transportation devices में अगर आप technical उसको टम में देखें. So anyways तो वह जब हुआ तो ambulance बुलाई गई तो उसको rush किया गया Nielis hospital. वहां पर वह बच्ची तो पहले ही expire कर गई थी क्योंकि सर में गोरी लगी थी और ambulance आते आते बीस पच्चीस minute लग गए जो कि हमें लगते थे हमारा रोना यह होता था कि ambulances हैं नहीं भाई. हमें एक media में case चला गया कि यार यह कराशी शहर में हुआ और because this family came from media actually, right? Producers, directors, et cetera. So, और case भी legitimate था बिल्कुल बात और यही रोना हम लोग दो साल से रो रहे थे कि यार please invest in this is a state's responsibility, this not a private's responsibility. So जब वह sumo auto लिया तो media की सारी spotlight आ गई. इस किस मुद्दे पर कि कराची जैसे बड़े शहर में emergency health के या emergency network services या emergency medical services जो कहलाती हैं EMS है ही नहीं. उसकी JIT वन गई और JIT में मैं मुझे खींच लिया गया क्योंकि उस वक्त तक I was at a very senior level and the public spokesperson so I was handling their communications, operations. So आपको JIT वालों ने you were part of the investigation? Yes I was officially called into the JIT. I had to come to the supreme court. Oh wow. Right over here in इस्लामाबाद और फिर JIT जो उसकी वहाँ पे you know supreme court की जो भी infrastructure कराची में बना हुआ था पेशियां अलग ही रही थी सीधी सीधी, right? तो पेशियों में फ़ंस गए, right? लेकिन उससे हुआ यह कि जो sin government थी उस वक्त जो कि you know खासा बदनाम होती है लेकिन मैं यह openly कहता हूं कि मैंने health care में काम किया हुआ है as a six. क्योंकि उस वक्त अंदर क्या मामला चल रहे थे organization में? Strikes चल रही थीं. Salaryयां नहीं दी गई थी. दो दो तीन तीन चार चार महीने से लोगों की क्यों पैसे नहीं थे और हंगामाराई चल रही थी और ऊपर से यह case आ गया. तो यह case जब उस पर spotlight आई, उस पर garment पर pressure आया garment ने then they had to sit on the table with us, right? And ultimately long story short यह है कि JIT से भी सुर्खुरू हो गए क्योंकि कसूर था नहीं और उससे बड़ी मदद हो गई. Government ने sponsor कर दिया. Today that service is rebranded as I think sin sin garment something something. But it's the original seed that is intact. It has grown. It has grown into sin, the rest of the province. And जब वह हुआ तो फिर मेरा queue था कि अब आग बुझ गई है तो अब निकलो. कभी अगली आग में चलते हैं, right? Right. And at that time I used to do a lot of media by the way. So if if you were to Google me or something तो आपको कुछ clips नज़र आएंगी. क्योंकि मैं line of fire के अंदर आ रहा होता था हर हर तरीके से. मुझे defense करना होता था और वह case भी बड़ा गरम था यह. So I think somebody caught attend or or I caught somebody's attention, right, on national media, whatever. And, this company approached me with, again, a health care company, right, an insurance brokerage house. So they had their own history, right? So they approached me and said, यार, we we want you to come and join us as the CEO. अच्छा. Right. So without going into details, this is now corporate insurance, life health insurance for the corporate sector that had a social element so it was a social enterprise right for profit company but we are trying to create impact right. वह कीड़ा था right. So it was attractive and it had a history right. They had struggle over the last say ten years, lots of breakouts and you know people leaving and you know some controversies going there as well. So again fire, right? I was like यार कुछ तो बनेगा, नहीं करते हैं. Against popular advice I I joined and and I spent about two years with them after that. Very good experience in the sense of I, this was my first CEO role, right? And and that's a different, you know, role. वह इसके लिए मैं आपको मिसाल दे दूं आपके viewers के लिए. वह लोग कहते हैं ना कि यार CEO वन गया भाई क्या बात है, right? जैसे कहते हैं भाई इसकी तो lottery निकल गई. हां हां. So इसकी मिसाल यह है कि मैं आपको यह कहूंगा कि आप कभी mountaineers को देखें. People who scale mountains, right? Have you noticed that what is the first thing that a mountaineer does when they have submitted? So first thing वह झंडा काटते हैं. हां. ठीक है? Picture लेते हैं. उसके बाद वह भागने की करते हैं. हां. Why? Because at that height, oxygen नहीं है. कदम कदम पर खतरा है जान का. It's very dangerous to be up there. Right. And they immediately want to get down. Right. So the corporate world is also like that. You see, the higher you up, there is, you know, the high winds are strongest, oxygen कम है, खतरा इधर उधर है. You know, so it's a very lonely, that's why I say it's a lonely spa. But, you know if you're built for it then it'll teach you a lot as well. Right. So that role was very good in that sense. It taught me a lot you know and then that led to to what I'm doing currently now. Very cool.

Let's talk about that then. Sure. मुझे यह बताएं कि what is Healt And when did you guys start? What's the thought process behind that?

So, Healt X is a health basically, it's a multinational health care management company. Mhmm. It's part of the TruDoc International Group, which is Dubai based, headquartered. It's in over 10 countries. It has a customer base of almost ecosystem of about 23,000,000 customers, crossed 7,000 corporates and been around in the business for about last at least fifteen years in its current form, right? And what it does is that basically यह primary care services provide करते हैं. Now the premise, now पहले मैं आपको मसला बताता हूं फिर solution पर आऐंगे. देखिए मसला health care का यह है कि total all stakeholders in health care with all the respect to all of them, right? It's just the nature of the sector itself. They're all incentivized. Now when I say all I'm talking about insurance companies, hospitals, doctors, pharmacies, labs. Everyone is incentivized when you get sick. So आपने note किया होगा कि जब आप बीमार होते हैं तो आपको treat करने में वो पैसे में उनका सारा business model ही होता है और ऊपर से हम as individuals भी हम भी सब reactive हैं. So it's like the upside it's upside down this whole sector. So it's reactive, it's not proactive and it's incentivized on spend. यह model क्या करता है? So this is a proactive model, right? So this is a subscription based model in which what happens is that let's say a customer pays a small subscription fee per month to us and in return what is what he is he or she getting. They get unlimited access to general practitioners, doctors जो होते हैं, psychologist, nutritionist, nurses, et cetera who are all full time employed and hired. They're all centrally hired via Dubai or across the 10 countries. They're trained centrally, locally licensed nationally they cannot practice anywhere else so it's a closed service so that they can concentrate on on the customer end and उनका objective क्या होता है? Objective ये होता है कि आपको primary care triaging या primary care provide की जा सके we come in, we analyze, run data analytics on past years health claims data जो कि आपकी insurance company से निकलेगा या आपके OPD से निकलेगा, primary care जो भी आप claims डाल रहे हैं and then we identify a disease burden. Let's say disease burden in an x y z organization, stratify करते हैं acute, healthy, chronic patients और फिर chronic patients जो कि by the way stats tell us, research tell us that eighty percent of all health care costs happen in twenty percent of the people. वह आपके chronic patients होते हैं. उनको हम disease management plans में डाल देते हैं जो कि proactive होते हैं. अब मैं आपको use case बताता हूं. Again, proactive का ज़रा explain करें what does that mean in this context? Proactive का मतलब यह है कि मिसाल ले लेते हैं, आपके वाले साहब की. Let's say आपके वाले साहब imagine करते हैं कि जी diabetic हैं, hypertensive हैं. अब उनके साथ होगा यह कि अब चूंकि हमने उनको profile कर लिया होगा उनको हम एक plan में डालेंगे. उनके clinical KPI set होंगे. KPIs क्या अमूरात कि जैसे उनका HbA1c level है sugar level उसको over time हमें reduce करना होगा. हमारा KPI क्या है कि हमारा target यह है कि हमने उसका कि उनका burden reduce करना है disease का ताकि उनकी disease भी पेतरो healthier हो और उनका जो खर्चा हो रहा क्योंकि अगर आप ये manage नहीं करेंगे तो you land up in a hospital right? So हम हम ये इस तरह से करते और corporate से हम बीर भी जो ये side है model की हमारा incentive ये होता है कि हम लोग basically इसको जो price करते हैं वह इस तरह करते हैं कि cost savings के ऊपर हम incentivize होते हैं. Let's say if I save you x percent you will pay me y. If I don't save you x you don't pay me y. Right. So, we are trying to basically revolutionize

उसका economic model बड़ा clear है. It's not nice to have fancy toy as with most startups but it's actually

efficiency driven rather than comfort driven. That's right. It's data driven. It's cost savings based incentivized ताकि मकसद क्या है? मकसद health tax का as a company यह है कि Pakistan के अंदर disease burden को कम किया जा सके और जो ख़र्चा हो रहा है इलाज के ऊपर तो यह मैं आपको बताऊं कि यह 247 है. जैसे customer के लिए 247 है. आप एक application के ज़रिए भी हमसे बात कर सकते हैं और एक phone number या simple help plan के ज़रिए भी और अगर आप corporate के साथ associated हैं और corporate client है हमारे तो आपको हम लोग basically cashless facilities. So हम लोग from consultation to medicine to lab to referral specialist to hospitalization सब capability रखते हैं आपको ये सारी cashless services provide करने की right? So nobody is working to reduce those claims and because everyone in the sector they are like I said incentivize on treatment. Are all treatment focus, financial incentivization भी उनकी ऐसी ही है. तो this is a very uphill battle. It's a behavioural change that we are trying to bring about but we have a business case for it. अगर मैं consumer के standpoint में पूछूं कि

because what you've said is it's structurally I understand for someone sitting in a corporate world उसको तो समझ आ जाएगी. But एक आम consumer को उसके सामने दस options हैं to be very honest. I think for most part people what they do is कि everybody has a family doctor around them. तो वह पहला तो उनका जो होता वह line यह होती है कि उस doctor को reach out कर लिया उससे पुछ लिया कि यार क्या scene है, क्या करना है, किस तरह है? Labs का भी it's very random. जो आपको access में है तो आप उधर ही चले गए mostly and उसमें जहां तक doctors का तालुक है, जहां तक उस का तालुक है वह मैंने देखा कि काफ़ी tough ऐसे होता है कि बस वह families के वन जाते हैं. कि यार हमारे तो हमारे घर वाले तो इधर ही लेकर जाते हैं तो हम इधर ही जाएंगे और एक trust एक उसकी एक element of trust बहुत ज़्यादा है इसके अंदर and हमारे यहां health care का तरह यह मतलब यह है कि health care is a bit overrun by patients so demand and supply is a little out. And so बाहर आप जाते हैं ना तो doctors बड़े सुकून में होते हैं और वह आपको time भी देते हैं और sensitivity भी show करते हैं यहां पर वह चीज़ नहीं होती जिसकी वजह से you see a lot of every now and then on social media you see some sort of an aggression where वह होता यह है कि you know something happened which can happen in this industry and then suddenly there's a lot of aggression and you know फट रहे होते दूसरे के ऊपर. Yeah. So, वह मुझे जो मैंने बड़ी दवा देखा और मुझे हमेशा यह हुआ कि यार it's all very fragmented, it's all very confusing कि यह क्या scene है and and मैं दस अस्पताल भी बना दूं उन्होंने. That's not solving this problem. That's right. That's Right? It's an experiential problem. It's a social problem. That's right. So for a consumer,

what is, what difference does this does Health X make? So before I answer this question वह जो आप बात कर रहे हैं उस पर मैं आपको एक analogy देता हूं. वह जो आपने अभी बात की ना confusion की health care की दुनिया में वह बिल्कुल सही कह रहे हैं. वह ऐसा है कि जैसे मैं आपको अभी एक first class ticket दूं airplane की और आपको कहूं आप दुनिया में जहां जाना चाहें जा सकते हैं world that needs to be navigated. आपको एक साथी की ज़रूरत है जो कि integrity के साथ, expertise के साथ आपको help करें navigate करने में कि यार अभी तो हम दोस्त यार फलाना यह वह self medication करके चल रहे होते हैं. But it's a lot more complicated than this. इसके बड़े missile भी होते हैं. So health tax क्या करती है इस इस आम consumer के लिए? Imagine कि you have a family doctor in your pocket twenty four seven everywhere. I mean everywhere you go essentially. तो या care coordinators होते हैं expertise रखते हैं वह उनका काम होता है as case managers chronic patients या acute patients को manage करना आपके घरों में, right? अच्छा manage से मुरात क्या है? तो अब consumer के लिए क्या होगा? कुछ भी मसला होता है तब भी और ना भी हो तब भी management में. आपकी consultation से लेकर जैसे आपको कोई भी मसला हुआ है consultation मिली आपको उसी वक़्त instant quality doctor. Quality is the word remember we are a value play we are not a volume play right? So standardized quality across every country. आपको quality consultation मिली. जब आप appointment से आ जाएंगे, आपने कभी गौर किया, आप बड़े से बड़े doctor के पास जाएं. मैं अब यह बात कर रहा था कि, you know, have you gotten a call a week later कि जी मुज़मिल साहब आप कैसे हैं? आपकी बेहतर हैं. You would never get that call. A एक तो वही वजह जो आप बात कर रहे थे कि एक नफ़सा नफ़सी का आलम है, doctor कम है, patients ज़्यादा हैं. दूसरा उनकी incentivization भी नहीं है because I mean with all respect it helps the system if you go back, right? So with us we remember incentivize on cost savings and reducing the disease burden, keeping you healthy. आपको call आएगी हफ़्ते बाद कि हां जी अब आपकी तबीयत कैसी है? Right? और वह पूरी care end to end आपको मिलेगी और खुदाना ख़ास्ता अगर आपको अस्पताल की ज़रूरत पड़ जाती है. Let's say again यह use case B2B का भी है, B2C का भी है कि B2B की सुरूत में आपको navigate करना पूरा cashless system देना है hospitalization का और B2C के लिए आपको guide करना कि करना क्या है और आपका सारा medical record एक जगह centralize होना हो उसकी history बनना यह एक बहुत ज़रूरी चीज़ है जिससे at the end of the day हो क्या रहा है कि आपका headache is being outsourced to a specialist family member who happens to be a professional multinational health care management company.

Makes sense and I think जो सबसे interesting factor है वह यह है कि your history, it's it's like a personal assistant, right? So it's your wellness personal assistant. Correct. He has all the information about your health and it's really an investment जो कि आपको दस साल बाद जब when they have all of your information तो they can guide you in a much better way,

जब आपको तब हो गया जाता है. जी और आपने भी बहुत अच्छा level इस्तेमाल किया wellness का. मैं भी ज़िक्र कर दूं यहां पर कि ख़ाली physical health की बात नहीं हो रही थी. हम लोग, we follow three pillars, right? So one is physical health, the other is nutritional health. So we have dietitians, wellness advisors, you know, on board full time to help you with that side. Even if you're healthy, but आप fit रहना चाहते हैं. आप, you know, अपनी nutrition के ऊपर focus करना चाहते हैं, that guidance से. Then mental health is a major major area. You know, there's such a massive burden of, you know, psychological illnesses in Pakistan. You'll be surprised to see the numbers. तो आपको psychologist, you know, mental health counseling available होगी as a member. Right? So it works essentially like a closed group, right? Whereby we become your like you said assistant or concierge to help you navigate through this complicated world. और और इसमें एक चीज़ हम थोड़ी सी digitization की भी बात करते हैं. I know that you know दुनिया में digitization हो रही है, जो total retail market है दुनिया में वह तकरीबन छब्बीस सत्ताईस trillion dollar की है. अच्छा अब e commerce आपके viewers और आप अगर यह सोचें कि कितनी उसमें digitize हो चुकी होगी मतलब e commerce तो यह लगभग यह figure आता है 6 to $7,000,000,000,000 that means बीस से तेईस चौबीस percent digitize हो चुकी है. This is since the advent of Amazon 1999. लगभग बीस से पच्चीस साल में बीस से पच्चीस percent digitize हुई है. ठीक है? अच्छा आप healthcare की दुनिया में आते हैं. Total health care की जो market size है according to estimates is about you say 10 to 13, 10 to 12 basically trillion dollars. अच्छा उसमें से जो digitize हो चुकी है जो telemedicine, telehealth, digital health की जो दुनिया है वह तकरीबन 100,000,000,000 से $200,000,000,000 के beach में इस वक़्त है. That means one to two percent only and most of it has happened after COVID, right? So there is a massive behavioural change that is happening. So but the interesting bit is कि what took retail and e commerce twenty five years? It's predicted to take healthcare about ten years to do that, to make that shift. और जब आप digital medium पर shift करते हैं, digital medium क्या है? Applications हैं, phone है, telephonic है, etc etc. तो आपका behavioural change is slow but because of COVID we all saw कि हम हमें जब मजबूरी हुई तो हमने सबने किया, right? But here's my view now. I think that digital health on its own probably is not a successful model. क्योंकि at the end of the day यह human level पर जो आपका interaction है trust based है सारा. So it has to be a hybrid model. That's why we are we are digiphysy, digital physical. So इसका मतलब यह हो कि जब हम corporates के साथ काम करते हैं तो यही doctors, यही teams आपके on ground आकर activation campaigns कर रही होती हैं awareness drives, wellness boot camps और as consumers we have you know consumers के लिए individualized services जैसे body composition tests, nutrition की बात कर लें, wellness की बात कर लें. So the connect, the touch point has to be in the physical as well as the digital world and specially for countries like Pakistan. हमारे जैसे मोमालिक और जो कि मैंने बात किया खुला समंदर जो कि by the way साठ सत्तर फीसद दुनिया है उसमें आपको hybrid model रखना पड़ेगा और digital health क्या करेगी कि वह burden reduce करेगी. It has the ability to save a lot of money by triaging जैसे हम बात कर रहे थे कि primary care देने के साथ साथ और बाजू का जैसे आपको नहीं उठकर जाना घंटा drive करनी, काम छोड़कर और doctor को दिखाना. If you can have a simple phone conversation given that it's a quality conversation given that you trust the person on the other side. It can't be some massive network random doctor कहीं बैठे हैं आपको पता नहीं है ना उनके पास आपकी history है कोई record है ना कोई एक integrated system में आप हैं. So it's a closed end service and quality service which has to be administered proactively.

Right. मुझे अगर मैं आपसे पूछूं, health tech के अंदर there are multiple startups that are working there. Some are sort of aggregators platforms जो कि कहते हैं कि यार ठीक है. When when I ask them they say कि you know the biggest problem right now is that you want to go see a doctor but you don't know who's a good doctor. So so we have the platform where all the reviews are there, you can book people online वगैरह वगैरह वगैरह and वह digitize कर रहे उनका appointment management system and through subscription वह कुछ charge कर लेते हैं. Then there is the other side जो यह कह रही है कि जी बड़ी success stories उसके अंदर seeming success stories हैं जिसमें anywhere between वह कह रहे कि हम आपके mobile phone पर आपको video call पर connect करवा देंगे. सही है. To these sort of mobile clinics happening all across rural जो कि कह रहे हैं कि ठीक है अगर doctor नहीं जा पा रहा तो हम वहां पर एक sort of nurse बिठाकर हम आपको digital के through you know will consultancy provide कर देंगे. सही. अच्छा pharmacy में भी आपको नज़र आ रहा है कि वह delivery site पर वह आ रहे हैं सारा कुछ है. How do you think एक तो यह कि how are you different? Mhmm. Then all of these guys? Mhmm. What's the USP there? And how do you think all of this comes together, in its eventuality? I think दहेर है Pakistan दुनिया भर में but Pakistan में बड़ी national stage पर. And इसमें अभी देखना है कि consumer behavior किस तरह से change होता है as particularly as the late millennial gets into the वह तब start हो गया है family में आना है. Sure. And the early Gen Z enters the family वाली side, right? जब उनके बच्चे होना शुरू होते हैं तो actively hospital visits become a thing and this and that. And these are digital natives. Right. So so the their user experience is going to be fundamentally different, than the user experience of the current sort of entity that pays the bills, right, to the decision maker. Same about. And in a lot of ways, and I remember there was this one startup who came to me and I told them, k, I I I opened the app and they're doing good work. Mhmm. I opened the app and it was filled with text. And I was like, you've, you know, you you're great today. Yeah. But you're you're going to be servicing a generation जो कि text तो उनका सार दर्द होता है. वह तो कहते हैं यार बस मैं जो swipe करता रहूं और मुझे जो ना चीज़ आती रहे right? So Short attention span. Short attention span and again UI UX, right? So it's not even short attention span. Maybe in case में वह कर लेंगे but the UI UX needs to be conducive, needs to be modernized, needs to be in such a, it needs to be so intuitive.

Right.

That everything just sort of makes sense. Correct. And इस उसमें मैं जो आजकल मैं हमेशा लोगों को मिसाल देता हूं. कि in its eventuality, no I don't care which industry anyone is and Pakistan में generally तीन major areas में काम हो रहा है. एक आपका fintech में हो रहा है, एक आपका retail में हो रहा है और एक जिसको मैं club together करूंगा health and education के अंदर. सही है. इसमें आपको startups बड़ी सारी मिलेंगी और आप तीनों को ले आए ना तो तीनों के तीनों environments बहुत noisy हैं.

And at that time they've lost you. They've lost me. Yeah. Right? I honestly

easy पैसा for the love of good god, figure it out, make a better UI because all I get is, all I do is I go there, all I'm interested in is मेरा पैसा कितना है? Right. And एक button में मैं click करता हूं कि यार मेरा mobile top up या मैंने cash transfer करना है. All of the other buttons are need to be somewhere inside because they are so occasional and rare कि वह उसमें आ जाए. अच्छा मैं इसी तरीके से मैं किसी और उसमें चला जाऊं, मैं retail में चला जाऊं, tons and tons and tons of product bombarded recommendation मैं health and edtech में चला जाऊं तो to be very honest again health की मसल उनकी यही थी कि clutter so 50 different options. कौन सा आपको specialization चाहिए? मुझे तो पता भी नहीं है कौन से specialization चाहिए भाई. मुझे तो यह पता है कि मैं बीमार हूं. आपको pilot चाहिए. हां. हां. Charge नहीं. Exactly and so what I realized was and then while I was going through this understanding कि यार यह हो रहा है I I came across the revolution of AI that's about to hit the market, right? Chat GPTs coming in and the conversational AI coming in And all models Facebook अपना निकाल रहा है, Google अपना निकाल रहा है, Microsoft अपना निकाल रहा है. And मैं उस time से यह कह रहा था कि यार honestly what if there is an app when I go into the app fintech के अंदर तो there is a a And then same with health के can I have a conversational personal assistant? Right. That can run me through. So और इसमें मैं connect करूंगा कि what a lot of people say when they say कि यार journey जो health की journey है ना वह पुराने वक़्त की journey को map करते हैं जिसमें आपको कुछ होता है और फिर आप सोचते हो. जब modern day reactive है. Modern day की जो है ना वह थोड़ी सी उसमें थोड़ा सा एक element different है. And the fact is आप किसी भी late millennial या Gen Z को उठाएं जो कि एक certain you know हम जैसा जो है और आप उससे पूछेंगे यार तुम generally ना तुम्हें medical related तुम्हारे touch points कहेंगे वह आपको 99% कहेगा कि यार WebMD. गुज़र जाता हूं I am fine. दो दफा जब मुझे तभी ज़्यादा ख़राब होती है मेरे अंदर anxiety होती है of cancer फिर में जाकर touch point को hit करना. सही सही है. Right? So so मेरे लिए यह एक बड़ा powerful user experience है. Mhmm. जिसमें rather than me going to Google. Mhmm. I should be going to a personal assistant. That's right. And that personal assistant can tell me कि यार based on the data, based on your location and based on the history, this is the possibility जो तुम्हारे symptoms से हो सकती है. Now tell me अब मैंने क्या करना है. मैं तो मैं connect करूं, मैं यह करूं, मैं तो मैं वह करूं and then takes you on a journey. Which is called the concierge service. Right? Right. So so I think you've touched upon a lot of good points. So पहली बात तो यह है कि

मैं I'll go back to the original question कि how are we different than whatever is happening out there, right? So first I would like to you know acknowledge and and you know give credit to some good efforts that are being put out there as well, right? And देखिए consumer के लिए ना मैं बड़ी एक simple rule देता हूँ. अगर कोई भी आपसे stakeholder interact कर रहा है ना जो कि incentivize है आपके बीमार होने पर वह गड़बड़ है, ठीक है? और वह सारे आप उस lens से देख लें, ठीक है? और कोई भी अगर आपको वह incentivize है सहमत रखने पर तो वह काम ठीक है. इससे पहली बात तो lens की हो गई कि जो players clutters को clutter को declutter करने का बड़ा आसान तरीका है. The player whoever you is who are you're interacting with the health care provider, service provider has to be incentivized on you being healthy and not by treating you when you're sick. Right. अच्छा, दूसरी बात मैं इसमें यह कहूंगा कि, you know, आपने difference की बात की. दूसरा difference सबसे बड़ा यह है कि बल्कि पहला सबसे बड़ा difference यह है कि we are not a startup, right? So what is a startup? Startup model बड़ा simple है. Startup model यह है कि it's a cash burn, customer acquisition, valuation based, you know, sort of a model. जिसमें आपका objective क्या होता कि पैसा खर्च करो, advertise करो, market करो, customer पकड़ो number बढ़ाओ, valuation बढ़ाओ और अपने share double करो, right? Let's say. अच्छा because we are a multinational we are a sort of a traditional business, right? तो versus a P and L play, profit and loss play. वह क्या है? यह भी बड़ा आजकल clutter है इसमें. बड़ा glitzy world है यह startup world. और अगर वह जो बेच रहा उससे वह कर सकता है तो वह sustainable है. That means कि वह net profitability होना ज़रूरी है whatever you're doing, right? So, traditional businesses work like that and that's the way to go, right? अच्छा, by way of being a multinational, right? I told you that because we are incentivized on cost savings, right? It has to be a PNL pay. It has to be, our incentive has to be aligned with the customer's incentive. Customer का incentive क्या है? क्या? सेहतमंद रहना है. हमारा क्या है? क्या profitable रहना है and this is where the marriage happens, right? तीसरी चीज़ मैं technology की बात करूंगा. अच्छा technology की बड़ा simple rule है. देखिए the only true test of a product is scale. आप simple यह देख लें कि क्या उस product या service ने scale को withstand किया हुआ है? Has it gone to the test of time? Twitter है, let's say Facebook है. कितनी iterations evolution से गुर चुके हैं? Stable product है. इसलिए क्योंकि scale पर operate कर चुके हैं. Now this model that why have we brought, why have I brought in this model into Pakistan? Because it's established model. It's an established product tested at scale with millions of users and it has done already in multiple countries what we've just talked about और वो कौन किस किस्म की मुमालिक है वो Pakistan जैसे ही मुमालिक है. Africa, Middle East. Countries we are biggest in you know Nigeria, Kenya, Egypt, Uae you know et cetera et cetera right? Then Saudi Rabiya, South Africa countries like ours right? So, तो बात यह हो गई. अच्छा, इसके बाद जहां तक यह बात आती है कि आपने मेरे hand से निकल गया. अब आपका अगला सवाल यह था. So, basically मेरा यह था कि technology जो UI

UX experience है of the consumer, not just UI UX in the digital sense. That's right. But in terms of them accessing health care, how how do

you see yourself evolving? So so देखिए आपने अभी हम ChatGPT की बात कर रहे थे, हम advisor की बात करते थे क्या chat based systems की. Yes that will all happen and I talked about how digital health is evolving as well. But fundamentally we have to kind of you know जिसे कहते ना deglutter this as well and acknowledge one basic fact where human beings and health care is a such a touchy subject and trust based subject कि आपने बात किया personal assistant की right? अगर वो इंसान या इंसान जैसा interaction पहली तो बात है कि आपको एक navigator चाहिए so that means you need to have a human centric UI UX as well as user experience or user journey that you were talking about. And in healthcare it's very frantic. हमें we want to say speak to someone who we can trust, who we see as credible कि हमें यार धोखा नहीं देगा, उसको अपना पता है और पैसे भी बचाएगा, वैसे नहीं करेगा यह, right? So in our model we place the human right at the center of our model that means your first interaction whether you are a corporate or a consumer B2C is with a human being a care coordinator at the first line right? Even if our if you go to our digital tools, that's how the user experience is set up. Right? Then, yes, will we move towards, let's say, ChatGPT based or AI based interactive tools? Sure we will. Right? But I feel that that will take time. Right? Because essentially you're talking about changing human behavior और हमारे यहां वह मैं अक्सर कहता होता हूं इस you know किताब की बार बार मिसाल आती है कि वह ज़िंदगी में ना दो सबसे ज़्यादा ज़रूरी चीज़ें होती हैं सिम्त और रफ़्तार, हमारी Pakistan में by the way यह Pakistan की अच्छाई है तमाम तर मसल के बावजूद कि चूंकि हमारी रफ़्तार थोड़ी सी slow है तो हमारे पास ज़रा time है to do course correction. Right. Right? And even in this health care world let's say यह speed में आ तो रहा है यह सब कुछ, right? But simth नहीं बदलनी और simth क्या है? Simth has to be designed and looked upon through the lens of an human being and the customer. Who wants what? Who wants to have a healthy, happy life? Less stress, no stress और बहुत stresses हैं हमारे पास कि हम अपनी तबीयतों को लेकर बैठ जाएं और जहां तक यह बात आ गई कि आपकी ख़याल आप अगर नहीं रख रहे तो आपके पीछे किसी ने पढ़ना है? वह हमने पढ़ना है, right? A professional should take care of let's say the health and well-being of your wife, your parents, your kids. So you can focus on doing whatever you do, right? And you can live to your first potential.

Right, प्रजीपता है आपकी consumer

के लिए भी products available हैं? जी जी बिल्कुल. So primarily यह B2B वैसे तो business है, right? लेकिन consumer line हमने खोली हुई है B2C जिसमें अभी कोई भी consumer जाकर health tax Pakistan you know हमारे social media handles के ऊपर या app store के ऊपर application download करके packages ले सकता है. बहुत ही मुरासिब price पर हमने रखे हुए हैं क्योंकि हम like like I said we're not in this to make money basically. We basically if you were to ask me as a CEO what my objective is in this first year? My objective is to prove that there is a model in health care that is human driven and is aligned correctly which is by keeping you healthy and you know ensuring cost savings. यह मैं prove करना चाहता हूं essentially corporate sector में भी और consumer world में भी. That's my objective.

And इसके अंदर आपने तीन verticals बोले थे जिसमें वह participate कर सकते हैं? जी, तीन verticals basically physical health, you know, तो general physicians, doctors,

mental health, you know, mental health counselors और nutritional health. इसमें wellness advisors जो कि dietitians या nutritionist certified nutritionist हैं and like I said before these are full time resources they're all centrally hired across all countries internationally trained locally licensed so this is not some doctor that had two hours so they're doing a shift from wherever they are We take the health outcome of our customer. That means our goal very very seriously

and take it, you know, from an end to end approach. Makes sense. For all of you guys, ज़ाहिर है health का channel e is is a is a huge problem. Every human being has a health potential, health emergency जो कि it's a it's a part of life. You should definitely check out Health X. Is there? That's right, Health X. Available both on Android and the iOS store. Yes yes. So you can definitely check that out. I'm gonna revert back to the book That Which Flows. यह क्यों आई book? And and and I mean so you've gotten the experiences and you've been in the library but you didn't seem like the guy I wouldn't have imagined. Right. Someone who has written a book. But this is very different. It's it's driven around your experience. It's driven around your life and travels and also a lot of the philosophical aspects, of your life. So tell me a little bit about this. So,

you know, first of all, I'd like to, you know, kinda tell you. I think you'd probably nobody realizes that it took me sixteen years to write this book. अच्छा. Right? So I did not even know that I was writing a book until like years, right? That, you know, I realized that, ok, I'm sitting on something. Right? And then to go through the whole publishing world, the proper established publishing world, It's quite cumbersome. You have to secure a literary agency, an agent, then they have to secure a publishing house. It has to be republished in a big market, then it goes international. So यह सारी journey यह book ले चुकी है. And it's now available all over the On Amazon, yes, it's available. It's all available all over the world. The hard copy is is is been launched from India but is going to UK, US and चला Pakistan soon as well. So but coming back आपने सवाल किया why, right? So मुज़मिल I have this this fundamental concept that all of us are capable of living multiple lives in a single lifetime, right? Now let me explain what I'm saying. देखिए अगर आप इंसानी तारीख़ उठाकर देखेंगे ना तो आप, you know, when you look at people accomplishment and, you know, obviously, you know, I'm talking about big names, right? उनके अंदर आपको कुछ common traits नज़र आऐंगे. वह मैं आपको दो चीज़ें बता देता हूं. दो तीन चीज़ें एक तो यह है कि most often they came from nothing, right? So they go went through adversity, right? Second कि उनका जो एक approach थी ना ज़िंदगी जीने की, they never waited for things to happen to them. They went ahead and happened to things, ठीक है? अच्छा and then the third thing is that they lived, seem to live multiple lifetimes in a single lifetime. What do I mean? For example आप आप Leonardo da Vinci को देख लें. आप अगर आप religious history में देखेंगे, हमारे prophet को देखेंगे आप right? कि warrior भी हैं you know husband भी हैं तो politician भी हैं तो statesman भी हैं Leonardo को देखें तो artist भी है painter भी है mathematician भी है expert वह क्यों होता था right? वह इसलिए होता था कि वहां पर बंदिशें नहीं लगती थी जब आप अपने आप को limit नहीं करते ना कि यार मैं तो बस engineer हूं या मैं doctor हूं बस यही करूंगा. तो और फिर अपने आप को exposure, remember हम exposure की बात करते हैं दरवाज़े खुलते हैं, right? So and I always aspired you know I looked up to all of these people and I aspired to you know let's say become a writer not just a CEO but a writer. Maybe, you know, other flavors await me in life and so should they await everyone that is listening and watching us, right? Explore, push yourself, right? And that's how you will be able to tap into so many talents that you might have that you don't even know कि आपके exist करते हैं because ज़िंदगी एक ही बार मिली है, right? उसको खुलकर जीना चाहिए. जो आपका talent है उसको push करें, explore करें. So this to me was, you know, some something that I'm I'm very proud of actually. You know, this is something I I often say people perish words survive. Long after I'm gone, this will survive. Right? So that gives a sense of pride. Right? And it's a it's an accomplishment that comes in. It's sort of a legacy that you leave behind essentially. That's right. And but the odd bit is which you are right that generally people write books who are either full time writers or write at the end of their life. Mhmm. This just so happened that it came, you know, the universe conspired to deliver what it must, right? And it came about. And and and, you know, a lot of the concepts that we've talked about, you know, are captured here. But if I were to close this, right? And I think it it should be a parting message to the listeners and the viewers as well. Essentially this this book is about the title why is it that which flows? वह हमने सबने सुना है, you know, बहता पानी साफ़ होता है पीने के लिए. तो यह सारा जो मुद्दा है इस किताब का वह यह है कि इंसानों को भी पानी की तरह वक्त के साथ बहना चाहिए. बहने से क्या मुरात है? Evolve करना चाहिए, grow करना चाहिए. क्योंकि अगर आप थम गए तो आप भी सड़ जाएंगे पानी की तरह और grow करने के, evolve करने के बहुत सारे तरीके होते हैं. ज़िंदगी हर किसी को मौका देती है. Or then, of course, there is a physical travel. So whatever kind of travel that you do, whatever kind of flow that you can experience, but you must keep flowing and growing. 100%.

And this book is right now available in Amazon. I believe it's available in bookstores in India as well. But for Pakistan, क्या क्या plan है? When can people get their hands hands? Well, अभी Kindle version तो Pakistan में और दुनिया भर में मौजूद है. इसका जो paperback, hardback version है, let's see. You know, there's some talks going on with the local publishing houses and if it's met, then it'll happen. Otherwise, you know, I'll There's always a digital copy available. You can check it out. But thank you for for for bringing this for me. Yeah. I'm gonna ask you one last question. I ask all of my guests, and I want your insight on that. You've you've well traveled. You've documented those travels as well. आपने bachelor's किया US से, आपने masters किया Paris से. आपने developing world तो काफ़ी closely देखा. And then you decided to come back to Pakistan. ख़ासकर जिस time पर आप आए थे उस time पर बड़ा turbulent time था. War on terror was on the rise. उसमें दरमियान में फिर हमने कुछ अच्छे साल देखे, कुछ पूरे साल देखकर. कि knowing what you know now, seeing what you've seen throughout your life, how do you see Pakistan twenty seven years from now, in 2050? What is a vision of the future that you see? And and I a lot of people answer this when they say कि तो by and large हम यहां तक तो पहुंच ही जाएंगे. I want that image of of of as we evolve as a society.

Where do you see Pakistan in twenty seven years? Yeah, so as as you saw my philosophical side तो मुझे एक आपको जवाब मैं philosophical दूंगा, फिर practical दूंगा, right? So the philosophical answer is that आप again look at human history, look at the history of nations, look at history in general and you will see कि बुराई और अच्छाई, असल से अबतक दोनों रहने के लिए है. इसका मतलब यह कि अच्छी चीज़ें भी होंगी और बुरी चीज़ें भी रहेंगी. रहने के लिए हैं, मसाल भी रहने के लिए हैं और अच्छी चीज़ें भी रहने इसमें आप मैं मिसाल अगर देना चाहूं तो आप अपनी religious history उठाकर देख लें कि you know इतने लाखों अम्बिया आ गए, right? और इतनी किताबें और you know religions आए दुनिया में. क्यों? क्योंकि you know light दिखाने के लिए. अच्छाई को बुराई separate करने के लिए. पर बुराई फिर भी दुनिया में मौजूद है ताकि अच्छाई अपना काम कर सके. Right? So Pakistan के हवाले से भी मैं यह समझता हूं कि challenges रहेंगे. वह मुख़्तलिफ़ क़िस्म के challenges होंगे. Achievements भी होंगी. वह मुख़्तलिफ़ क़िस्म की achievements होंगी. Right? और practically अगर हम बात करें देखिए I think that in twenty seven years our citizen in general will mature. Right? I see an end to cult or dynastic politics. I see informed decision makers, voters. I see maturity in our systems. Right? We will go through those tough times which we must and as we are. Right? And generally I think the economy, if you look at the fundamental economy of, you know, the global economy, it's opening up, it's getting digitized. So यह जो concept है ना borders और lines का, यह मेरे ख़याल से और कम होगा. In the sense कि anybody, like, look at yourself, right? You're sitting here. We, this conversation that is happening is global right now. So you will see opportunities open up for our people which will not be subject to, let's say, some border that we are within. Right? And there will be democratization of technology, which will empower and liberate a large segment of the population. But we will still have challenges but different kinds of challenges. What I wish for Pakistan you know I'll give you my own example why did I come back and you know if I were to ask me if I come if I would come back right now 100% I will right Because I'm very clear in what I wanted to do and which is still the same. I want to solve problems, right? I I like the fire, right? मुझे जहां पर मसाल है, हमारा opportunity है, we have problems to solve. And if you think about it, life is is a balance between money and meaning. If you have one only, you're screwed, right? तो आप यह गड़बड़ होगी कि आपके सिर्फ़ पैसे हों या सिर्फ़ meaning है. So it's a it's a never ending quest to find that balance. Pakistan and this part of the region allows, I think, to me the opportunity to find that balance, right, both from a financial standpoint it might not look like right now but if you solve problems you will be better off, right? So, you know, I foresee ourselves in a much better place. But what I want to say to people listening to me is try to become problem solvers.

That will that's how you will make a better Pakistan. 100%. खाकान, thank you so much for coming in and sharing all that insight, you know. And I wish you all the very best. I mean, health x, what you guys are doing. It's fascinating, but more so because the mission statement that you have is not just, oh, you know, we're just a digitizing play, trying to build efficiency. What you're trying to do is really bottom up changing the way that health care works. I I wish you all the very best, and I hope to see recommendation engine पे आ रही है so please do subscribe to the channel. It really helps us and supports us and then साथ ही अगर आप like का button दबा दें तो नीचे कहीं पर like होगा. तो that helps our conversation go to a lot more people if you think it has value. इसी के साथ साथ नीचे दी गई हुई नीचे आप comment section में पहले तो मुझे आकर यह बताएंगे. What do you think about the healthcare system in Pakistan? आपका कभी experience रहा है? अच्छा रहा है? बुरा रहा है? What are your thoughts on that? इसी के साथ साथ there are a lot of very interesting sort of nuggets of wisdom that खाकांत shared today. What are your thoughts on that? Do let me know in the comment section below. हमारी यह कदत community है, you can join that. The link is down below. It's on Discord जिस पर हम different tiers हैं so you can join it for free but there are different tiers where you can help support the channel and then we do a bunch of things there as well. We have discussions. I do live sessions after every podcast is released there as well exclusively for my paid members as well to hear thoughts about what I think about that conversation and why I think that industry is very very important and potential opportunities and, you know, within that space. But also, the entire premise of the community is to build leaders in Pakistan जो कि आने वाली emerge करने वाली जो economy है, जो बुरे हालात आने वाले हैं I think there's a huge opportunity there as well. So if you like to be a part of that, check out the link down below. Audio platforms वाले like, subscribe को करने दे पाएंगे. आने वाले episodes के आपको notification मिलेगी. But anyways, this was सय्यद मुज़मिला संजय दी. You're watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.