How Much Money Is REALLY in Sports in Pakistan?

सामने वाला ख़बतिना आज़रात. Welcome back to another episode of Thought Behind Things. जैसा कि आपको बताया आजकल मेरी series चल रही है with Endeavor Pakistan जहां पर हम Pakistan के 50 most exciting startups और businesses को explore कर रहे हैं, discover कर रहे हैं. लेकिन साथ ही जहां पर हम वह discovery जारी रखे हुए हैं. तो आपको पता है, मैंने आपको हमेशा से पता है कि मेरे दो ही interests हैं. एक businesses को देखना, समझना और figure out करना और दूसरा Instagram के ऊपर reelscroll करना and वहां पर जब मुझे interesting लोग नज़र आते हैं तो I'd love to, you know, talk to them, figure out कि what they're doing, why they're doing and there is one particular gentleman that I have been following for well over the last one year जो कि if not the most at least one of the most viral Instagram accounts right now. He has 1,200,000 followers. On average उनकी एक video जो है वह 1,000,000 cross करती है. 1,000,000 जिस दिन cross करती है उस दिन वह शायद अफसोसी के साथ सोचते होंगे कि यार आज थोड़ा bad scene हो गया वरना दो ढाई million on average निकल जाती है. It's a phenomenal story. He's just 21 years old and again 1,200,000 Instagram के ऊपर generally आपको celebrities को मिल रहे होते हैं. To for for for someone who is not like a celebrity celebrity acting entertainment industry में नहीं है, very sort of functional काम कर रहा है. उसके ऊपर इतनी बड़ी audience निकालना, उसको sustain करना, उसको sustainably grow करना. That is just absolutely phenomenal and then he is a boy on Instagram. Generally boys का platform is YouTube जहां पर ज़्यादा boys होते हैं and then girls shine on Instagram. तो वह भी मेरे लिए. There's a lot of stereotypes and a lot of the glass ceilings हैं जो कि break queen meeting यहां पर and and that's why I really wanted to have this conversation. हमारे साथ आज आज मौजूद है मुहम्मद दानियाल. He is a chef, 21 year old chef. I'm sure you guys have seen his videos on Instagram. We'd love to know more about how this sort of happened. This has been happening for the last two years. It's not a very long journey. But the meteoric rise of Daniel, I'd love to figure out. This is सैयद नज़मीरा संजय. You're watching Thought Behind Things season five, Slahabad Studio. This episode of Thought Behind Things is presented in partnership with Endeavor Pakistan.

धनिया अल्वाही, thank you so much and welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. It's it's a pleasure to be here. I'm really excited.

मैं conversation को थोड़ा सा start कर लूंगा. I want to understand a little bit about yourself. Where were you born? Early life आपने कहां पर गुज़ारी है? And what were some of the themes growing up that you feel like built the sort of person that you are today? Alright, let's just get into it. So,

belong to a family of five people. मेरी पैदा issue है गुजरावाली में हुई थी. I was born in March 2020, sorry, 2004 and I have a elder sister. She is seven years older और मेरा भाई जो है मुझसे पांच साल बड़ा है. So, have always been the youngest one of the family obviously. बाकी बाबा जो है मेरे इस time पर he was in the army. So, I belong to kind of like an army background traditional family जो होती है. तो उस वक्त हम गुजरावाला में होते थे and then my mother has always been a housewife and a wonderful one of that. One of the hardest jobs out there I believe और बस वहां से फिर I obviously जब आप army में होते तो आपकी posting वगैरह होती रहती हैं. So, it wasn't like we were always at one station. Alhamdulillah I would say कि me being the youngest I got to experience less postings that means less time for me to settle to new experiences. लेकिन that did play a lot of I think big role into who I am today as a person.

So,

would you like me to kind of get into the intricacies of that?

Yeah yeah, I would love to. Correct. और साथ साथ I would love to know, I mean education वगैरह आपने particularly कहां से ली? ज़रूर ज़रूर. Because a lot of people really उससे ना एक sort of connect भी develop होता है कि यार अच्छा आप HSN के पढ़े हुए हैं. हां.

कहां से हैं ऐसे people can sort of सीखे अच्छा. Yeah, so मेरी education I studied almost all my life in army public school. So you know a lot of people might be able to relate to me on that level I think काफी लोग समझते हैं उतने route से पढ़ा गया उधर से पढ़ा होगा but yeah that was where I started मैंने playgroup की थी मुल्तान में and then we shifted to कराची. And I stayed there for around nine ten years और मैंने जो है matriculation तक जो है कराची में पढ़ा.

What is like कराची? How was कराची?

Yeah. Karachi was interesting. I have mixed opinions on it and there is no offense to Karachi itself. I think every place is wonderful. It depends on all the experiences that you have really. मेरे experiences इतने अच्छे नहीं थे because for me it was my first official posting as someone who was just growing up and like seeing the world in a new light. तो I just remember when we were actually in the car and we were towards a new house. मैं एक बड़ा sad किस्म का नाम है window से बाहर देख रहा था and there was every Levine playing in the background and I was just so sad. I was like सारे दोस्तों के छोड़ के मैं पता नहीं कहां जा रहा हूं. And then I, you know, I got transfer to a new school और वहां पर मैंने शुरू के दो साल अपने अपनी पूरी family को बहुत तंग किया. I used to cry every single day in the classroom. I used to run away from the classes. Teachers were actually वह जो है मुझे ज़बरदस्ती control करके बिठाना पड़ता था उनको and not a lot of people know this but I used to make my mother sit outside the classroom ताकि मैं उनको ना window से बाहर देख सकूं and I had that thing in you. Ok, nobody is going anywhere and I was in first grade. Obviously, it was not something that I was proud of but it was it was new. मेरे लिए, you know, I think that played a role into how I later developed as well. तो अलम दलिला फिर आइश्ता आइश्ता. As we moved on I think मैं अपने shoes में confidence हो confident होने लगा and I started exploring various outlets of letting my creativity out. तो मैंने अपने school में debating वगैरह मुझे काफी शोक था so I started debating and doing stuff like that. I wouldn't say I had a lot of friends क्योंकि I think मेरे जो जो interest थे वह काफी मुक्तिलिफ थे दूसरे बच्चों से. Also because I had recently transferred to you know a new city it was hard just kind of getting yourself out there. तो खैर अलहम्दुलिलाह वहां से फिर हम आए इस्लामाबाद in twenty nineteen and that is where I decided to actually shift towards A levels. लेकिन I think उससे पहले there was this this time that is I think very intricate and very personal. Before moving to Islamabad I had this time where I felt deeply very lonely और मुझे बस I thought I had no friends you know film, how do you do stuff like that and I actually and this is something that nobody else really knows aside from my family मैंने एक YouTube channel start किया था when I was probably like twelve thirteen and उसमें मैं खुद नहीं होता था. It was I used to make parody videos of youtubers and I had around 38,000 subscribers and I used to get sometimes views and millions on that. तो अच्छा really? Yeah. Actually. Was there like a voice over or a? I'll tell you what. It's more like ok, there is a video I had a funny background you know tune and then I add text on top to make it funny like you know उससे like parody videos उस time पर काफी चल रही थी. I used to make that और मुझे याद है वह मैंने कुछ मरताबा post किया and was like ok why is this getting so many views you know and then suddenly I told mamma Monday I am like ok I need these details I am gonna get like ok I am just gonna say it. उस time पर it was a huge money and it still is. I my like I think it was my first paycheck it was around $2,000 and it was very crazy for me. Crazy. Like मैंने कभी सोचा नहीं था इस तरह. So, I actually did that for a couple of months लेकिन around that time is when I said I was exploring more and I was getting, I felt lonely तो मैं ऐसा करता था I used to go to the terrace of my house every day और because I was like ok this is somewhere where nobody can see me I don't have to see nobody and then I just used to look at the sky and I used to talk to Allah. So I think that is the place where I think we go into my personal connection connection with my दीन which I think still plays into a role plays a role into who I am as a person today or at least I try my best to take it with me. तो खैर I used to do that and then करते कराते जब हम यहां पर shift हुए I I you know I started exploring that more. I mean I try to learn more about my religion, who I am as a person and what this world really is about. And I think जब आप वह सब कुछ खुद explore कर रहे हो तो there are lots of things that might confuse you and it might get a little too overwhelming. I think हमारे पास आजकल इस स्तिक्कोई you know we don't really know where to get our knowledge from so I had all I had was the internet you know and that did what it did. लेकिन unfortunately, more fortunately, now that I look back, I, it got to a point where I, I started getting ill. So, basically, I I remember I was once randomly sitting in my room and I suddenly got a very, मुझे इससे like एक सोच आई, like an intrusive thought that I would never think of, you know, imagining. And I was like, bro, what just happened? And that kind of started happening very regularly. So, imagine you just sitting like a normal person और आपके दिमाग में एकदम से एक बात आ रही हो, यहां पर दूसरी आ रही हो, यहां तीसरी आ रही हो, know, just like, this is not me. And that is something that really confused me and I took that for a couple of weeks and I think I was standing in the kitchen in my old house जब हम जब मैंने यह सारा कुछ start नहीं किया था and I think I just I couldn't control it anymore. Was like I need to tell someone I am feeling this. तो मेरी बहन साथ करी हुई थी and I just told her I was like ok this is what is happening to me. And she's like, that's interesting. But she's just like, मुझे भी कभी कभार इस तरह की सो जाती है. Like, you don't really want to think about it, but you get it, you know. And I was like, ok. And then it went away for a while until a little while where it just came back and it never went away. I mean, esta esta अपने parents को बताया and it was really hard for them to kind of take into account as well because we were just trying to figure out what is happening. कहते कराते आपको पता है you know देसी family हो तो आपको काफी मुश्किल होते हैं इस तरह की चीज़ें convey करने. करते कराते you know ऐसा ऐसा we actually went to a psychologist you know and I I I talk to him and he basically diagnosed me with OCD which is obsessive compulsive disorder जिसको हम ज़्यादातर देखते अच्छा वह हाथ धोने की बीमारी होगी या जो भी हो गया There is a lot more that goes into it. Know, there is different types of OCD, there is religious OCD, there is other things and I had a bunch of all those things. So, life I think suddenly took a U-turn. I-I had to, you know, suddenly like look at things at a new perspective and you know हर हर ज़िंदगी की हर चीज़ जो है it just became very difficult. I think when you have OCD, think I a lot of people can relate to me if they can if they have this condition as you question every single small thing that you care about. तो चाहे वह आपकी family से related हो गया और आपकी religion से related हो गया आपका you know something related to your morals you end up questioning it to the point we can't really live life normally और मुझे याद है कि I used to you know sit alone from my family because I just I don't know why I used to do that but it it I used to do that and my family would be very confused. मैंने खाना पीना छोड़ दिया था and it was just things were just going downhill और जब मैं school भी जा रहा होता था you know I used to be with the driver, I just used to secretly be crying. COVID के time भी था. I would have my mask on and I used to be so thankful for it. I was like अच्छा चलो, you know, this is my silent battle and I'm fighting it. And then that is when things took another turn and I I'm delving into this because I think it's very important. No one would really speak of these experiences normally. But I think lot of people do experience such things in their life. अगर not specifically कुछ और चीज़ जो उनकी ज़िंदगी में होती है and they need help from it and you can rise above that. So, once again one random day. Now I fast forwarding obviously when you are living that life, things are very slow. I was just, मैं जुम्मे का time था. So, were just praying and I randomly felt a jerk in my neck and I was surprised I was taken aback. I was like, I kind of lost control of my body at that point and it was confusing to me but I मेतना I was not taken aback. मुझे I was just like, ok, seems like I have another challenge too, you know, challenge on my hand that I have to tackle. तो मैं घर गया and I I couldn't control it, you know. I was मेरी neck झटको रही थी and my eyes were twitching and I was just like, I don't know what's happening. I think the anxiety got too much to a point where my body could not really control keeping it all in sight so it started reacting. तो मेरी अहम्मद हुए हैं obviously my parents it took a lot of time for them and I don't blame them at all to kind of get used to how I was changing and क्योंकि मैं उनसे हर दो second बाद कोई सवाल पुछ रहा था because I was just so confused I was so doubtful all the time I think they they they would get sick of it at times as well you know and I don't blame them obviously they have come a long way with me मैं मैंने भी इस journey में grow किया उन्होंने भी किया But she asked me, she's like, is happening to you? Like, अब क्या हुआ है? You know? And I was just like, I don't know. That is where I got diagnosed with Tourette syndrome which is basically involuntary movement of your body and your vocal cords. And yeah things were just changing so much. Was just like I used to with this happy voyage ok. He was just trying to explore himself and suddenly things change और मैं cooking was something that was my outlet you know and I stopped going to the kitchen obviously हम मेरे exams भी हो रहे थे end पर and I I used to get really good grades and then now suddenly I was failing in classes और I couldn't really tell anybody either nobody knew what was happening. लेकिन अलहम्दा लिला. वक्त के साथ साथ, you know, I I worked on myself and got a lot better. Obviously, everything takes time. It it I wouldn't say I शुरू में मेरे दिमा में यह था कि, you know, these are challenges that will just go away, you know. एक दिन आएगा जब सब कुछ चला जाएगा. But I sit here today and I'd say I have never truly recovered from that even though अलहम्दुलिल्लाह मैं इस ऐसी जगह पर उम्र आई. I think it does not impact me or nobody can really tell that I am going through something. Like, I just appear to be who the other person is and I am that. It's not something that makes me different. It's just हर किसी का अलग challenges होते हैं यह मेरा एक challenge था. So, then I as I got better, I obviously started delving into my routine more. मैंने kitchen में ज़्यादा जाना शुरू कर दिया and I used to experiment. मैं ना cooking को as science experiment देखता था हमेशा से because my family and I we always used to watch master chef together तो ऊपर से मेरे बाबा जो हैं वह भी cooking करते थे कभी कभार मेरे नाना भी करते थे we used to make barbecues together so it was not something जो मेरे दिमाग में instill था कि यार let the woman handle this, you know. So, I was just like, alright, if this is something that is alright for me to do, might as well do it. क्योंकि मुझे उस time पर और कोई outlet मिल नहीं रहा था. I didn't find anybody who had the same interest as me. So, I wanted to work on that. तो फिर मैंने आज था ऐसा ही no kitchen में जाना शुरू किया started experimenting and I मेरे दिमाग में हमेशा से एक चीज़ थी. I think everybody has this dream of theirs and I just wanted to do something and I just it sounds weird now that say it I wanted to be famous you know but I I one day I just suddenly decide I was like अच्छा चलो उसको film करते हैं you know and I was in A levels at that time मेरे A levels खत्म हो गया था. अब A levels में भी जो मेरी All the people that do follow me and I had probably run 100 followers back then. Nothing wrong with that. That's another life. That's a good life as well. But yeah, I posted that one video and मुझे अच्छा लगा. I I, you got a couple 100 likes and it felt really nice because I was just like ok you know I never really got that before so it's a nice feeling like I am doing what I like and I am being appreciated for it. हां कभी कभार एक आज troll comment आ जाता था and I was ready to handle that you know I think sometimes life takes you through so many challenges for this very reason क्योंकि पता होता है लताला को कि आगे जाकर यह challenges इस बंदे पर आऐंगे तो there he is gonna be able to handle it in a way and you are not able to see that at the very moment. आपको बाद में जाकर पता चलता है कि यार इस चीज़ ने मेरी ज़िंदगी में यह चीज़ add on किया. So, yes, I have then certainly, you know, started recording और मैंने regularly अपनी video post करनी शुरू कर दी and that is where my journey actually began.

Yeah. Makes sense. Before we get into the food journey and I want to obviously dive deeper into that. But I'm curious, जो आपका when your OCD eventually got diagnosed and and and you went to a psychiatrist for that or? Yeah, a psychiatrist. Yeah. So so were you able to have conversation that I actually I was just having this conversation with my brother couple of days ago. मैंने उनसे यह सवाल किया because there's someone in my family who has OCD as well and you know, you had a lot of people in within the family. तो मैंने उनसे कहा मैंने कहा, do you think this is a nature versus nurture thing? Like, is the OCD there because of the inputs from society? Or do you think कि वह genetically ही, you know, predispose थे कि OCD होना है? And so I am curious about that कि आपके experience में were you able to go to like a psychologist, dive deeper into the conversation of what life was? Because एक theme जो बड़ी continuously नज़र आ रही है वह loneliness है, right? Introversion है, loneliness है. And I'm and I'd I'd love to know whether you were able to dive deeper into that and reconcile with, you know, the feelings that you had growing up. And again, sorry मैं थोड़ा सा लंबा कर रहा हूं. But the reason why I'm saying this is a, I think you're incredibly brave to be talking about this. Most people in Pakistan aren't. And and and b, I think majority, आपने कहा काफ़ी लोगों को होता है. मैं तो कहूंगा हर किसी को होता Pakistan है. में तो हर बंदारे दिमाग़ ही मरीज़ है. मेरे ख़ुद से included. पर्क़ सिर्फ़ यह है कि self awareness कितनों कितनों को है और कितनों को नहीं है. There is no problem with having a unique set of challenges particularly when it comes to your mind. It's just that the faster you are able to identify it, become aware of it, reconcile with it and make it or go on a journey to make it better. It doesn't have to be like, my god, कोई बहुत massive depression है. Mhmm. और छोटी मोटी चीज़ें होती हैं that help you understand कि oh यार मैं यह चीज़ शायद differently करता हूं and maybe I should deal with it differently. Right? And so the reason that's why I'm asking because I feel like it'll help a lot of people really understand their own selves as well कि how can they go through? Mhmm mhmm. Go towards identifying

and and and sorting themselves out. So, as far as the reason for having OCD is concerned, I think I for the longest time मैंने खुद कोशिश की कि यार, क्यों है मुझे? You know and I I think doctors are still trying to figure that out but I think nature and nature both has a place in it. I think genetically even if you don't know I think मैं कभी कभार pinpoint कर सकता कि बंदे के अंदर they are doing a certain thing. Specifically I am just like I see OCD tendencies you know. कुछ लोगों में काम होता है, कुछ लोगों में बहुत extreme होता है and I at that time had very extreme level of OCD. तो वह I think it plays around in a whole circle. बहुत सारी चीज़ें होती हैं that I can not really pinpoint कि आपकी ज़िंदगी में you know अगर आप notice करना शुरू करें. I think जैसा आपने बात की a lot of people have the certain way of doing things and you might just be able to see yourself in them. Aside from that talking to my psychiatrist or psychologist about it we I did try. It used to be kind of hard because I मेरे को पूरी कोशिश करता था कि जिस तरह की मेरी thoughts like, what were you thinking back then? You know, they don't they make no sense. But I had to write it down ताकि मेरे psychologist को समझ आए. So I used to give it to him and then it he used to kind of get an idea. Ok, this is that and this is that. लेकिन honestly speaking I think a lot of things you have to manage to create extend on your own and it takes time. You're not gonna अपना आप अपने आप को नहीं बता सकते यार एक दिन में सब कुछ ठीक हो जाएगा. Don't look at it as that. ठीक है? One thing that really helped me with my OCD and intrusive thought is मैंने अपने आपको यह बताना चोरी कर दिया. अच्छा, intrusive thought आ रही है? अच्छा मसला हो रहा है? आने दो, होने दो. It's fine. This is not me. I know myself as a person. You know, this is not my thought. I identify as this person. So, when I started accepting it, it started getting actually quite better. So, that's something that really helped me. हां, इस तरह की भी experiences थे when I once visited a psychologist and it was funny now that I look back on it and I I talked to her. उन्होंने ना मेरी अम्मा को बुलाकर उनसे पुछा उन्होंने कहा अच्छा इसके कोई interest हैं? तो उन्होंने कहा नहीं he is very introverted लेकिन वह cooking वगैरह करता. तो तो उन्होंने कहा हां घर में बैठे बैठे लड़कियों में लिए आदते हो गई हैं, you know and I I I think she said it with such a conviction and such a happy smile that my mother and I at the time nodded at it like ok सही बात की है उन्होंने, you know. Even though I know in myself that's completely wrong मुझे पता था. लेकिन I guess people have their way of saying things. तो बहुत सारी ऐसी चीज़ें होती हैं जो आप convey कर सकते हो. Both होती हैं जिस पर लोग आपको judge करते हैं. But at the end of the day, you have to play with it according to your own self and you need to figure it out on your own. So so tell me about the the food thing. I

I am not sure आपने Instagram के ऊपर over time कितना ज़्यादा archive किया. I went through your entire feed. It's not that elaborate. 135 posts हैं. But there were a couple of photos उससे पहले that showcase you as the ordinary pre fame person. ईदून भारत type post है, this or that. And then there is just video that that comes out and immediately it has like 4,000 likes. I'm not sure if that is something जो कि over time वापस जाकर लोगों ने देखा है उसको. फिर से पसंद करना शुरू कर दिया है. But generally when you look at creators on Instagram here and there, तो there are a lot of people जिनको बड़ा time लग जाता है. मतलब वह content बनाते रहते हैं, फेंकते रहते हैं या फिर कोई एक चीज़ viral होती है या फिर I say ऐसा people start to take notice and then over time they will create a, you know, a flavor of what they create. To me, when I look at your feed and I'm not sure again कि उसमें से अगर early time के ऊपर experimentation थी और वह archive हो चुकी है. But it seems like from the very beginning you had like a formula

that worked and then you just sort of double down on it again and again and it has just sort of over time grown. Run me through the first six months of this journey. For sure. I completely get your point. Think अगर मैं अपनी feet को भी देखूं तो मुझे एक ऐसा idea लगेगा and to some extent it is true the way that you take it. मैं initially मैंने ना अपनी actually poetry post करनी शुरू की थी because I I used to love writing a lot अभी मैं कभी कभी लिखता हूं बस इतना ज़्यादा time नहीं मिलता. So I used to actually just you know film myself in like aesthetic scenarios and just put my poetry in the background और मैं वह post करता मेरे पांच छह post उस तरह के थे that have since been archived. फिर उसके बाद मैंने I think I have some cooking videos like 30 cooking videos जो कि मैंने archive की हुई है. But coming to your point अब जैसे आपने मेरी पहली video की बात की जिस पर अभी I think around 4,000 likes हैं initially you split 200 या 300 likes थे फिर obviously over time people go to the first person then they like it. So maybe कभी कभार जाता हूं just like oh ok that that seems nice. So it I think लोगों को time ज़रूर लगता है and some people really have great content out there. एक चीज़ जो मेरे दिमाग में हमेशा से थी was regularly pushing content out there. I used to be very regular with my posts. Obviously अब मैं रोज़ाना post नहीं करता था लेकिन हर दो दिन बाद, हर दो तीन दिन बाद मुझे post करना था कुछ ना कुछ. Even though I was seeing obviously आपको 200, 100 likes मिलते हैं और वह इसी तरह आ रहे थे and I was cooking जब आप cooking भी कर रहे होते editing भी कर रहे होते हो, film भी कर रहे होते हो, voice overs भी कर रहे होते it takes a good two days. Kitchen में तो आपका cooking करते ही छह घंटे लग जाता है. So, I was just excited about it. I don't know I liked it and I wanted to go on with it तो मैंने हमेशा वह जारी रखा. फिर एक time ऐसा आया I think I made one video that people really liked. It never hit a million or anything like that लेकिन उस पर response काफी चाहता है. Think I got like 4,000, 5,000 followers just from that one video. At the time that was a lot and it was just about breaking stereotypes. So, मैंने ना वह different stereotype को challenge करने के लिए वह video बनाई है people really resonated with that. फिर आस्था आस्था मैंने recipes जाना शुरू की तो उस video से फिर लोगों ने दूसरी videos पर भी जाना शुरू कर दिया. So I think that also helps. Once you get that one post out there you kind of just start playing into that same same video and I think that that happened for a good while और मुझे अपना पहला जो sponsor था और like ad ad था I got that around 90,000 followers actually कुछ लोगों को पहले मिल जाते हैं लेकिन मुझे तब मिला था and I think मेरी जो पहली मैं कह सकता हूं viral viral video थी. मैंने ना Pakistan की एक जो content creation है ना उसमें थोड़ा बहुत एक gap ढूंढ लिया था. I think even when you look at content creators out there there is not a lot of male chefs out there making the type of content that I do. तो मुझे पहले से पता था यार यह थोड़ा सा different होगा लोगों को कहीं ना कहीं resonate करेगी यह बात. So I think that was something that played out for me as well and उसके बाद मैंने एक series start की थी. I used to look at international bloggers as well तो मैं देखता था अच्छा यार इस तरह का content यह लोग cube सिर्फ बना रहे हम यहां पर क्यों नहीं बना रहे हैं and then it related to be it was related to my niche as well तो फिर मैंने एक series start की थी it was my cartoon series. So what I would initially do is एक popular cartoon चल रहा उसके अंदर खाने वन रहे हैं. I would take that cartoon clip and I would make that food and I remember पहली चीज़ मैंने Doremon से बनाई थी फिर उसके बाद मैंने V Bear Bear से Pizza Calzones बनाए थे and that one video gave me around 65,000 followers which was insane to me. Really? Yes exactly. I was like एक video से इतना impact आता है obviously that happened a little over time but उस time पर it was just crazy because like I posted it और दो तीन दिन तक कुछ नहीं और उसको उसके बाद एकदम से blew up. I was like ok people like this this is what I am doing from now on. So फिर मैंने ना वहां से जब मुझे समझ आई मैंने और cartoons देखने के उसकी recreate करनी शुरू करती है. Cartoons से फिर मैं shift हुआ anime की तरफ Cause I was like MMA की एक different audience है. You have to see your content from the lens of the viewer always and I think a lot of us tend to forget that आपने content सिर्फ बनाना जो आपको देखकर मज़ा आए और उसमें मैं voice over भी इस तरह कहता था यार सीधे सीधे नहीं बताना नहीं नामा कितनी डालनी है हल्दी इतनी डालनी beach में roast कर दो beach में comedy कर दो you know तो obviously वह भी चलता है उसकी अलग category है but I I used to play around with that as well तो उससे ही हो जाता है लोग मेरी बातों से भी connect करते थे. So as a person they started liking me as well. Whatever I would put out did actually end up resonating with it. फिर मैंने different series start की and I just played into that whole algorithm.

So I think the time that I discovered you was this reel that you made around your father. If I remember this correctly, was something about the fact, you know, my father's always supported me and, you know, he's been the driving force behind a lot of what I do. And I think that was very powerful because your father has a very clear military face. But while having that face, there was this sort of a very loving, cute, supportive sort of expression and vibe going on. जो कि उस time पर मुझे याद है as a viewer, I was like, oh wow, like this is interesting. This this guy is just doing this in Pakistan and on a multi generational level he is trying to not even trying to maybe subconsciously breaking stereotypes and I think यह बड़ा important होता है कि subconsciously आप stereotypes break करें, right? So, there are a lot of people who are activists. Nothing against them but मुझे personally मेरा opinion यह है कि activism can only take you so far. अगर आपने मांशे का mindset बदलना है तो आपने successful लोगों ने बड़े effortlessly दिखाना है कि यार यह जो हम कर रहे हैं, sort of very subtle, not just you but also your father on a multigenerational level going, cooking, having fun with it. And I feel like मुझे मेरे लिए उस time पर यह था कि यार wow, like this guy is and and his father is actually just normalizing a behavior that should have been normal, like, in the first place. Mhmm. Run me through because I see him being involved a lot in in your content every now and then. Yeah. Run me through how much of of of your parents support and presence has been in this entire journey. So,

आपने एक बात की वैसे activism के बारे में and then like doing that subconsciously. So, I definitely want to I think admit that I have also created posts in the past where I think I have kind of delved into that activism myself और I think later on I watched those videos और वही मैंने archive की बाहर में जाकर because even though they had an impact they were done in a way that I did not like. I think as a content creator and the type of person I am मुझे ना काफी सोचना पड़ता है कि like ok this is something, is this something you want to put out you know even if I am putting my family in my content you know and just like ok don't want to use them in any sort of way. I don't want to abuse that power that I have as a social you know as a content creator. Obviously फिर अलग अलग किस्म के लोग होते हैं. So मेरे बाबा के साथ you know काफी जो भी हमारे you know एक एक relation है ना it happens very naturally and I think that goes into playing how it date in the video कि बहुत सारी tips जो मैंने उस video में डाली थी ना वह I I never even looked back on them they were not staged on anything मैं बस edit करा तो मैंने देखा और एक दिन I think I was just randomly scrolling through a video. मैंने देखा oh it's like a very cute moment and then I was like wait इस तरह की बहुत सारी moments हुई हमारी. You know? I was like ok let's compile them you know and then I posted that और फिर Pakistan में भी लोगों ने देखा India से भी काफी लोगों ने काफी appreciate किया. So I really like that and I obviously saw some comments as well some people could relate a lot can not either and that goes into why this is very important to put out. तो my parents support has really played into you know the content that I have made and why I am so confident even coming here today. वह हमेशा काफी खुश होते हैं you know even when I am doing something new they need to know first. काफी cute content बनाते हैं आप. So that just I think it actually helped bring our bond closer as well actually. So वह पहले करीब था अब it brought it even closer and I think it's all about just taking that one step to kind of express yourself that I think as a person I am quite expressive as well so it just comes out naturally और मम्मा बाबा ने हमेशा support भी किया है you know. बाबा ने हमेशा एक बात की थी मेरे साथ कि what I tend to do now as well.

Makes sense. You mentioned, you know, people taking photos. अच्छा, इस चीज़ से मैं बहुत सारे relate करूंगा. I was the youngest in my family. We were a family of six people. My father obviously being the youngest. He was much older than I am And youngest का ना एक बड़ी sad बात यह होती है. Now I'm 35, I have a couple of kids of my own. ज़ाहिर है जवानी के बच्चे अलग होते हैं और जवानी के बच्चों के साथ जो आपकी bonding होती है और memories होती हैं, वह अलग होती हैं. थोड़ी सी middle age की फ़र्क़ होती हैं. I can see myself being a lot more tired. I try my, I try my level best कि यार मैं और ख़ासकर क्योंकि millennial parents are parenting in a very different way and I think, you know, the sort of content that you're putting out is is also inspiring a lot of people, lot of young men to have very different relationships with their sons. When they they look back at their own relationships with their father, तो उनको शायद कहीं ना कहीं कुछ missing नज़र आता है and they're, you know, beginning to break that. You know, मैं अपने सारे दोस्तों को देखता तो it gives me a lot of hope for Pakistan as well कि, you know, everybody is very invested with their sons and daughters and सारा कुछ. But I obviously, you know, my father I think he was, if I'm not wrong, he's 47 born. So he was maybe 43 when I was born. And so that's the age difference, right? Yeah. And throughout his life वह, you know, he was a career banker. तो वह बड़ी उनकी एक serious से थे, serious ही वह थी. Then he retired and that's around about the time when I started my content journey. And similar to yours, he was very invested in it, right? So he would be watching every comment. मैं इतने comments नहीं पढ़ता था. उन्होंने सब पढ़ा होता था. उनको पता होता था पहले से कि क्या चल रहा है, क्या नहीं चल रहा, किधर क्या हो रहा है? And he would कुछ अपन कोई hate comment आएगा तो he'd get upset. You know, यह मेरे बेटे के बारे में ऐसे क्यों हो गया? But also, while all of that was true, I think one incredible thing that he and my mother both gave me was that they both were very fearful of or very protective of the fact कि यार यह viral हो रहा है और virality कहीं इसके सिर पर ना चढ़ जाए. Right? So, the advice that they always gave me was कि बेटा, शोहरत वोहरत आती जाती है. यह बहुत अच्छी बात है. पहली बात है इज़्ज़त जो है ना वह generational होती है. Generations लगती हैं इज़्ज़त बनाने में और एक इंसान की एक हरकत होती है जो कि जो है ना उस इज़्ज़त को यूं टुटकी बजाकर ख़र्म करते थे. दूसरा उन्होंने मुझे यह कहा कि तुम जितने भी बड़े इंसान वन जाओ, यह अल्लाह की दिन है और you know, always just remember where you come from and always remember कि, you know, this is all these are all just numbers on a device. And I think I'm very grateful for that because I've seen way too many people get completely lost Yeah. In in the in in in the popularity of it all. Mhmm. Right? So I'm curious, first of all, कि as things have changed, again, as an introvert, as someone who was inherently lonely and didn't have a lot of friends. Now जब पूरा situation flip होती है, you get so much attention. How did that sort of impact you

from the early days till now? Alright, so I think how I'd like to view this question is the fact that even with this sudden fame, there is a point where you have to keep yourself grounded as well और remember this time ममा ने मुझे हमेशा से बताया कि even though you are introverted, you have to sometimes break those barriers and go ahead and talk to people and I have मैं जब theory शुरू में जब मैं कराची जब shift हुआ था तो मैंने जब अपना debating वगैरह करनी शुरू की थी. Even though I it was really hard for me to even look at people in the eyes. मेरी मम्मा और मेरी बहन मुझे टोगा करते थे बेटा जब बात करे आंखों पर देखकर बात किया करो. I just used to talk like this you know. So वह चीज़ मेरे अंदर थी but I remember when I went on the stage और मैं जब debating वगैरह शुरू करता था I felt like wait this is a whole other world. I do not care I just force myself अगर अब मैंने कुछ गलत किया तो मेरी यह बेइज्जती होने वाली है. So, I used to enjoy the thrill of it all and I think that goes forward as well जब मैंने coordination start किया and उसके साथ जब fame आया, a lot of the times when I go out and I meet these people I am just like am I deserving of that you know it feels so sudden क्योंकि आप एक कमरे में होते kitchen में होते हो आप cooking कर रहे होते and you just put it out there और आपके numbers increase हो रहे होते हैं. You don't see people increasing you just see numbers increasing you know and so when you see people so excited and jumping and like actually when they are trying to take pictures उनके हाथ shake कर रहे होते हैं. Just like I have only seen people do this with actors like मेरे साथ क्यों कर रहे हो? And just a normal kid. So, it's अलहम्दल अल्लाह, very nice feeling but मुझे at the end of the day हमेशा मेरी कोशिश होती है to keep myself grounded and I because I think मैं as a person I've always been grounded naturally as well. मैं चाहता हूं मैं अपना वह चीज़ कहीं खो ना दूं. I am still the person that I was since day one. I've just built on that. I've become more confident. I am still the person I I was like when I first started, you know, and I I've just built on that and I'm just more confident as time went on और उसमें कोई गलत बात नहीं है. So at the end of the day when I have this sort of experience यहां पर बाबा के साथ ही मेरे साथ pictures कंजवाई जाए. Yeah I have this moment where I feel really grateful या फिर अपने आप को कुछ ज़्यादा ही समझने लगता हूं. I-I make sure when I go to my room to just thank Allah for all that He has given to me and to hopefully make you know I pray कि I am able to make of this of what I have you know the best and I don't know where it goes. कभी आपको पता नहीं चलता है एक sudden आपको fame मिलता है अगली दिन maybe people don't like you anymore. So, it's a very scary thing as well but it is the reality of life and I think what really convinces me is I try to put out things that I think can have a positive influence on people as well. So, it's easy to then be grateful about it as well.

Makes sense. What are you studying professionally? So, I'm actually studying law.

I जब मैंने matriculation से A levels में transfer लिया था initially क्योंकि मैं when I was in the matriculation system FSE वगैरह जो होता है I felt कि मेरे I was tired you know मेरी वह creativity थोड़ी bound हुई थी. Obviously it works for some people for me I don't think it was and I मुझे याद है मैं रोज़ाना class लेता था और मैं कहता था बस दुआ करते थे यार लाह बस की maths ना आए दोबारा you know I just don't want to study this thing. मैंने कहा मैं ठीक तक मैं इसके साथ जुड़ा हुआ and I don't know how I you know I I passed all those exams you know but every single day of me going to school was just like I just I don't think I will be doing algebra or what not in later on in life. तो जब मैं A levels में जब मैं shift हुआ तो I decided to select English, business and law और मुझे obviously जब यह choice दी गई I was like wait I have a choice suddenly you know. I was like ok this feels nice and then suddenly I was allowed to take my phone to school as well which was another thing and I am glad मुझे वह चीज़ें बाद में जाकर मिली because I think वह शुरू से अगर होती तो maybe I will it spoiled obviously depends person to person. तो खैर मैंने वहां से फिर जब मैंने law की classes ली अपनी I found an interest in that and since मेरे debating में भी काफी शोक था मुझे और suit भी थोड़ा देखा हुआ था. So I had this you know glittery perception of what law is. I was just like नहीं पता क्या करना है तो बस law कर लेते. So I just decided to do that and now I'm in my second year of law.

Nice. You think you'll be pursuing that? And the context for that question is, you started this entire thing driven by sort of like a hobby. मुझे मज़े का खाना पसंद है. मैं खुद जाकर बना लेता हूं. मेरे लिए therapeutic होता है. चूँकि मैं बना लेता हूं तो मैं इसको record करके डाल भी देता हूं. And it was very disruptive in a sense that this is not what the algorithm generally promotes, right? So, recipes एक होता है normally मैंने ना इस तरह के देखे COVID के time पर particularly बहुत ज़्यादा food explore हुआ क्योंकि लोग घर पर थे, बना रहे थे. तो बहुत सारे interesting pop up किए लोग. कुछ cinematic style खाने बना रहे थे, कुछ और चीज़ें कर रहे थे. आए और चले भी गए काफ़ी सारे. काफ़ी boys आए थे. Food generally has has worked out because everybody loves food. It's just that उसके अंदर themes किस तरह से add हुई हैं, novelty कितनी से आता है. There's this another gentleman that I follow जो कि Japan में खाने बना रहा I'm not sure if you've seen him. उमर के नाम से and he does like वह उसका यह था कि think he was an engineer or something and then he was just wanted to be a chef so he left and went to Japan and वहां पर, you know, started cooking and now he's recently I think got into a big big hotel or something like that. तो you either have those जो कि hardcore chefs हैं जो बड़ा खाने की ख़ूबसूरती के साथ वह कर रहे हैं. Then you have someone like yourself जो कि बड़ी effortlessly he's having fun with the food that he's making and he's eating it and and he's sharing recipes. But I'm curious where does it go from here? Right? Because food का एक बहुत बड़ा problem यह होता है कि there is only enough that you can create over time and in the grand scheme of things वह तो हर थोड़े से बाद ना वह आपको एक novelty switch करनी पड़ती है तो दो ढाई तीन साल के बाद कोई नया pop up करता है and people just rush to that particular person for that new novelty. Unless you're able to really sustainably build something that people keep on coming back to. Yes. So I'm curious कि is this just a hobby for now and for the future Or is this going to convert into something more of a business like a restaurant or would you like to pursue a career in in in food?

So when I initially started I think चीज़ें उस वक्त काफी मुख्तलिफ थी. Obviously एक fame आपको एक दिन में at least ज़्यादातर लोगों को नहीं मिलता. So मैंने जब अपनी law की degree भी start की I I you know मेरे पहला साल भी चल रहा था I had around 20,000 followers back then which is still a great deal लेकिन obviously things were like उस time पर ना चीज़ें इतनी serious नहीं होती you are just taking life like ok ठीक है university गया पढ़ाई की घर वापस आया कुछ film करती है you know on the weekends and you just post it and I think then it gets to that point where you are seeing oh people are really enjoying this and you start getting brand deals and you are just like oh wait this is just turning into something I never imagined और वह फिर चाहे आपको मज़ा आ भी रहा होता है excite पर, excite पर it becomes kind of like work as well and it is work at the end of the day and I think it was around last year of रमज़ान since obviously my content is food based as well. I started getting lots and lots of work around रमज़ान and तो मुझे शायद दस पंद्रह project you know एक दो दिन में मिल गए and I was just like मैंने यह सारे करने है because I was just obviously since it was new to me as well and at the same time मुझे पता चल रहा था यार मैं grow कर रहा हूं और मैं एक ऐसे stage पर था उस time पर आ गया था where I was just like wait I am doing law और मेरी grades भी अच्छे आ रहे हैं but maybe this could turn into something I never imagined. Maybe I could pursue both if I am lucky or maybe I do just one. तो मुझे हमेशा इसे अपना cafe बनाने का बहुत शोक है. So, whatever work I get, I try my best to just do my best to get it and to just, you know, work hard and like it it might seem effortless but it's certainly isn't in in a certain regard क्योंकि जब आप cooking वगैरह कर रहे हो तो like ऐसा है it takes around six hours to just cook and do everything. Personally, since I like to keep my content very natural I think लोग उसके साथ काफी resonate करते हैं काफी cinematic quality भी नहीं होती. कभी कभार हो जाती है I try to make it you know जब मेरी cartoon series होती and all I try to edit it very nicely लेकिन मैं recording भी खुद करता हूं मैं planning वगैरह voice over scripts तो numbers के अलावा यह मज़े और क्या दे रहा है? You know and I think then it got to that point where I was like अलहम्मदलिल्लाह I am doing well you know as as as a content creator and I am I am I can earn from this as well और मैं चीज़ें हैं जो मैं enjoy करता हूं. So, I might just pursue this क्योंकि मैंने ना एक class ली थी अपनी teacher के साथ and he was like दानियाल I saw your content on TikTok the other day and he is like I know वैसे आप main Instagram भी करते हैं. So he was just like मेरा भी शोक था एक time पर कि मैं media में जाऊं and I love photography and stuff but then I chose law and he is like आपको भी I think one advice I would give is choose one thing because you will not be able to manage both. You know, he is like actually I think he said he knows you as well. That I remember What is his name? अहमद वकास. I think he was in Beacon House with you or something back in the days. Yeah, yeah. So just knew of you. So, he just like I pursued something different entirely but उन्होंने कहा एक चीज़ choose करना बेटा. तो मेरे वह जो ख्वाब था कि यार दोनों करना चाहता हूं just like ok maybe that's not too too realistic. So, since then I have started viewing it as a backup option क्योंकि मेरा interest ज़्यादा इस तरफ आ गया and since I focus lots of time on this I am not able to say have my interest fully focus towards law तो कभी के बाद you know पढ़ाई भी compromise हो जाती है फिर मैं last minute effort डालता हूं अलहम्दलिला में. अलहम्दलिला बोल सकते नहीं कह सकते but I have always been like a last minute steadier type of person. तो आखिर के दो हफ्तों में पढ़ना हो उसके बाद exams अच्छे हो जाते हैं. तो yeah that's to cut it short my main plan from here is to hopefully convert this into a cafe.

I see. Yeah. Do you think you'll, यह तो I would I would second your professor because food is one thing I think law itself requires a lot of sacrifice. My sister did it. The journey of becoming a successful lawyer requires so much, so many many years putting in कि उसके comparison के ऊपर आपके पास एक ऐसी चीज़ है जो कि बड़ी categorically आपको results ला रही है उस पर आपने इतना already invest करके उसको build build कर लिया हुआ है कि वह फिर it doesn't make sense. You don't psychologically you cannot put in that effort in that law thing when you know कि there's something else that can give me a faster return. Sure. Yeah. But I'm curious. Do you think कि इसको आप it's a cafe, I get it. I think it's the it's a very logical step. And, you know food bloggers have opened cafes and they've done well तो food as a as someone who makes food वह तो it's it's a very logical next step. But उसमें I'm curious कि would you then create like hire a bunch of chefs to do it या would you then pursue again, is food making going to be a big part of your life? And in that food making because it's one thing to create or make food for yourself when you convert that into a commercial activity of doing it day in day out. तो उसके लिए भी बड़ी requirement होती है जिसकी वजह से you know culinary schools हैं जो कि आपको build करना सिखाते हैं कि यार इस तरीके से मैंने quality maintain करनी है. घर पर और वह चीज़ आपको सिर्फ़ system से मिल सकती है, right? So, you think you'd you'd actually after you're done with your law degree, would you pursue education in food or or or hospitality

for that matter? अच्छा, आपने यह बात की है तो मुझे एक बड़ी एक interesting चीज़ याद आई है. जब मैंने matriculation कर लिया था ना I was in that zone जब मुझे पता नहीं था मुझे क्या करना है ज़िंदगी के साथ. I think a lot of people are in that area. तो I along with my parents क्योंकि मेरे साथ my mental health was going down the train as well. तो हमने कहा चलो चक्कर लगाते हैं कौतम is like a culinary school. Yeah yeah. So we were like ok let's go there और मैं proper वहां पर गया था. I was just like considering getting my admission. I was like ok maybe I was honestly पढ़ाई से जान चुरानी थी उस time पर because I was doing bad at that point you know it used to scare me. I think when something seems to just be scary you tend to run away from it और उस time पर मुझे idea भी था and it seemed like an easy way out at that point. मैं यह definitely कहना चाहूंगा I I did explore that option in the past लेकिन obviously पर आप उसको उस time पर मेरे पास this entire platform मेरे पास इस तरह का कुछ भी नहीं था. It did not seem like a solid plan to me and I knew it was risky at that point. अब जब मैं सोचता हूं I definitely want to explore culinary school even if I do it for a few months like care like a course or two I want to hone in on my skills उनको बेहतर बनाना, chopping skills होंगे, cutting skills होंगे, like plating and all that क्योंकि मैं जब specially master chef Australia देखा करता था ना तो मैं उनको देखता था यार they present the food so beautifully and I was just like this is missing from a normal persons day to day you know dining experience. तो yeah definitely I think I would be open to pursuing that और जहां तक cafe की बात है I I would definitely want myself to be there cooking as well even I think अगर शुरू में मैं ज़्यादा होंगा I think बाद में जाकर शायद थोड़ी चीज़ें मुश्किल हो जाए. Obviously I would have other chefs with me as well. Tell them what I make, why I make it, क्या चीज़ें बनानी है, क्या नहीं बनानी है, किस तरह मैं बनाता हूं and then they can share their skills. I can you know, share mine and then ultimately it can become something bigger from there.

You think you'd like to go outside of Pakistan? Explore the world a little bit? Yeah, I, we used to travel a lot pre COVID. So, travelling has been alhamdulillah

very big part of our life and I am glad I have been able to experience that लेकिन एक चीज़ what comes with being younger is you tend to forget a lot of great experiences. So I would love to explore the world honestly speaking or I would love to explore different foods, different cultures, you know everything like that. So I would, I would absolutely be interested in that. हो सकता है culinary भी you know France में या Italy में बंदा pursue कर ले कुछ time के लिए. So I might look into that as well, इंशाला in the near future.

Yeah. एक चीज़ बड़ी ज़्यादा होती है जब आप social media पर होते हैं ना, you start off more often than not with what you like and what you're passionate about and sometimes those things that that you're passionate about takes off, right, which happened in your case. But the more you stay there, the more you end up becoming the product of society. And what I mean by that is, आपने थोड़ी देर पहले यह बात की कि you always have to look at और और और think like a viewer. You have to think कि viewer जो है वह इस चीज़ को देखेगा तो किस तरह से देखेगा, वह किस तरह से approach करेगा. True. Which makes a lot of sense commercially and and, you know, any creator including myself does that as well. But then there is this very fine line where you end up just completely losing all sense of agency and you just end up becoming like this actor that is performing what the viewer would absolutely love to see. And, now I have spent fifteen years in that in in the industry. I have had to reconcile with this quite a few times and अब जाकर शायद मैं पंद्रह साल बाद जो मैं content बनाता हूं वह entirely मेरी मज़िक content होता है. Even if that, you know, reduces my viewership in the short term. और वजह उसकी यह है कि जब आप constantly लोगों के around कर रहे होते हैं, कर रहे होते हैं, कर रहे होते हैं तो you begin to feel like you're losing a part of yourself, right? And I've spoken to a lot of content creators, चाहे comedians हो गए, वह बाहर जाते हैं तो वह कहते कि यार लोगों को लगता है कि हम बस हम वही personality हैं जो हम Instagram पर डाल रहे हैं तो they come and they they're like joke सुना यार यानी joke सुना, right? I'm curious कि at this point in time, do you, a lot of what you create, do you think it's driven by what people would like? Mhmm. Or it's driven by your own interest of what you'd love to eat, what you'd love to, you know, cook. And इसी के साथ I would love to know some insight whether you've checked it कि जो आपकी demographic है that that's following you, उसका breakdown क्या है? Like Pakistan से कितने हैं? Pakistan से बाहर कितने हैं? India से कितने हैं? Age क्या है? Gender क्या है? Yeah.

Honestly speaking, I as much as I hate to admit it, I think a lot of my content does seem to reflect what my viewers like क्योंकि आपको पता है as a content creator you have to put in that put that into recognition और I think अगर मैं अपने scroll करके अपने archive post में भी जाऊं मिलता है यार थोड़ा बहुत मेरा content change था क्योंकि I used to have this fun side of me as well और जब मैं वह जाता हूं ना कभी कभार I miss that and then I remembered. Am just like अच्छा दानाल यह वाला partner लोगों को पसंद आया था वैसे you know even if it's like a small वह it's there's nothing wrong with putting that fun thing out there you know. तो मैं अभी भी कोशिश करता हूं कि यार अच्छा सही है अगर लोगों को यह चीज़ पसंद आ रही है even though मेरा दिल नहीं कर रहा यह बनाने का at least I put myself into it in some sort way. तो मैं ना कहीं ना कहीं उसके beach में एक experiment करने की कोशिश करता हूं. हां हां I think एक point ऐसा भी आता है when you are growing so fast कि आप numbers game में बिल्कुल फ़ंस जाते हो. You know, remember initially जब ऐसा ऐसा हुआ था I used to look every second at the notifications you know somebody so and so commented so and so like the post so and so like and I realized that was taking a toll on me because जब इस नहीं होता था या इस तरह कम होता था just be like why is this happening and I would not say अभी नहीं होता है इस तरह जब because ऐसा बहुत बार होता है कि मैं content में बहुत ज़्यादा जान डालता हूं and I am like this is gonna work out and I am actually excited about the video and nobody really watches it and nobody तो अब खैर नहीं कह सकता है हमल लिल्ला but you know it doesn't do as well as you might have thought और आपने उस पर काफी effort डाली होती है. So I think it's it's a very intricate balance of putting what you like versus putting what others like together and making something out of that. So it's always going to be a lifelong challenge as a creator. Think that is something that I have accepted और बस मेरी कोशिश यही होती है यार at the end of the day I keep my mental health alive and no matter what I am doing and I I अभी दो साल हुए हैं जैसे बात कि दो ढाई साल हुए हैं and as things move forward I am gonna learn more and I am always open to learning. Think as a content creator and as a person you should always be able to broaden your horizons और आप एक चीज़ पर अपने आप को stuck नहीं कर सकते. Makes sense and in terms of the demographics of the sort of people that are following you, do you have any data on that? Do, I do. So, I think initially it was a staggering 80 to 85% of women that were watching my content as I delved into more towards I think the anime वाले खाने और बाकी सारी जो different categories of foods तब अभी now it's around sixty-sixty 7% women and I am not good at maths so the rest are men and बाकी majority of my audience is from Pakistan but I think I have around 22 to 25% Indians following maybe which is still quite a lot. Quite a lot yeah. And then there is Bangladesh and then I think South Europe as well. कभी कभार इस तरह भी होता है कि जैसे कि मैंने ऐसा content बना दिया जो कि you know it's something that can cater to a wider audience. मुझे कुछ comments ऐसे भी आ जाते हैं कि I understood nothing but I really like your recipe or something like that. So I get अच्छा मुझे कभी के बार ना काफी ऐसा होता है कि दानाल some content that you are making I think it is on par with international standards not to flatter myself a lot but I and then I think ok दानाल एक account तुम्हारा ऐसा भी होना चाहिए भई just putting this content out there with an English voice over and like maybe you get a different audience from there and I don't know maybe sometime in the future we explore that as well. अभी के लिए मैं खुश हूं with audience that I have and with how good I am doing and since I plan on staying here like building my base over here and then exploring the world later on I think I am good where I am.

Makes sense. Yeah. जो cafe आपने खोला है do you have any plans for that in terms of what sort of what genre would you be tapping into what sort of food would explore?

So I think the ideas are ever changing. कल परसों ही में I I visited like aather because they want to collaborate with me. So मैंने उनसे इसी बारे में बात किया. I was just like ok I really want to go into this but I want to know the behind the scenes. तो मुझे ना काफी different perspectives मिलते हैं because I was meeting the owner herself. She was very nice about it. She was very transparent. तो उन्होंने बताया कि it's not gonna be easy an easy task you know. You have that pain you know but it only works so much you need to have more than that. What is it that separates you from the rest of the cafes out there? सिर्फ नाम के साथ तो आप पूरी ज़िंदगी you know नहीं चल सकते and that thing is something that I totally understand and something she told me from her experience is that is like I opened this place up with my family and चुरू के दो साल में we have just been putting money into the business to just break even. So she is just like it's not gonna always be you know rainbows and you know butterflies but obviously that just gives me the idea कि चलो ठीक है आपको ना एक solid plan होना चाहिए और आपने कोई इसमें difference करनी है. तो मुझे हमेशा से मैं अलग अलग चीज़ें सोच रहा हूं तो यार ठीक है यह चीज़ है market में यह नहीं है. एक चीज़ जो मुझे काफी scare करती है and you touched upon upon this this, you touched upon this as well. हर रोज़ हर आए दिन नई जगह खुल रही होती है खाने की and it gets really scary because कभी कभार मुझे ऐसे ideas आते हैं am just like ok write it down and the other day I look at it and am just like somebody has already done it now. So I think it really matters अगर आप किसी चीज़ के pioneer हो. I always I really wanna do that. I think एक चीज़ जो मैं अपने गाथे में रखना चाहता हूं is little touch of me because I know at the end of the day a lot of people are gonna come for who दानियाल is and what they see क्योंकि वहां से attraction होगी. That is for sure. So, am gonna see अच्छा ठीक है. उस दिन मैं कल I was seeing एक Instagram पर reels पर option आया most feud का. So I went across and I was like dividing my videos into categories I was like okay my audience like these type of things more and like I said I have talked about this is a lot the the video that made me viral I want to put that concept into my cafe as well so I want to have जो popular dishes मैं बना चुका हूं Instagram पर I want to have that as part of the menu and then of course at the end of the day मेरी यह भी कोशिश रहेगी कि it's a cafe that does not go insane with everything on the menu. Menu पर सोचीज़ें नहीं होंगी. Menu पर बेशक दस चीज़ें होंगी ज़्यादा से ज़्यादा but it's gonna be something people are gonna come for. So I don't wanna do something that later burdens me down the line. I think इस तरह के cafes हैं भी इस्लामाबाद में जिनका menu अगर आप जाकर देखें burning brownie को ले लिया आप किसी और को देख रहे हैं just stating examples तो उनके menu में दस पंद्रह चीज़ें होंगी but people go and visit for those things and they visit for the environment. So I think I want to do something like that and then of course अगर आप specific उसमें चल जाए I think people do New York style cookies अगर आप cookie सी category ले लें लेकिन people don't do those thin cookies like you know तेरा gooey in the middle but crispy on the sides. I want to do those and then there's a lot more that you can delve in हर एक दिन एक नया viral trend रहा होता है. एक डेढ़ साल पहले वह Dubai chocolate आई थी फिर अगले दिन कुछ हो रहा था तो कुछ लोग उसको जल्दी adapt कर लेते हैं. I think if I would be I would have my own space I would try to make sure कि जिस दिन वह एक trend launch हुआ है उसी दिन I try working on it and just putting it out there in the पाकिस्तानी market as well.

When you see a future in food do you think you there are two types right so there is either the fast growing franchised models of of of these sort of big food conglomerates or there are these sort of very niche Michelin star chef driven restaurants जो कि और उसमें भी further categories हैं. Fine Dine भी है, Cafe भी है, यह है वह है. आप अगर पांच, दस, पंद्रह साल का दानियाल ख़ाब देखता है तो what what's that dream in terms of the empire that he's created? Yeah.

Honesty, like I said, मैंने ना हमेशा से when I used to think about having my own restaurant, रुकैते or anything like that I think वह मैंने काफी एक dreamy perception रखा हुआ था and I think मेरे एक एक site पर मेरे यह भी एक यार मैं एक restaurant full fledged खोलना चाहता था जहां पर सब कुछ मिले you know everything is served multiple courses and all that. अलहम्दुलिलाह laser down the line I would absolutely love कि अच्छा ठीक है एक चीज़ मैंने खोल दी उसके different मैंने franchises खोली so like a basic cafe everybody loves everybody close to I am like okay now I have this experience now I can delve into something more risky so I I I build something completely new that is different from what I have been doing for a couple of years so I think I am the type of that does not want to stop at one thing मुझे हमेशा कुछ होता कि यार यह चीज़ accomplish कर लिए next task क्या इसके बाद क्या करना इसके बाद क्या करना मुझे अच्छा नहीं लगता मैं फ़ायदे बैठा हूं. I like building on what I have and what I don't have. So I think the initial goal is to obviously have that first place you know pop out and I want to see if people actually are looking forward to that. अदुल्लाम्दलिल्लाह I think they are going to be hopefully and मेरी चीज़ यह हमेशा दिमाग मेरी है कि यार मैंने अपने perception जो मेरे लिए बने हुए हैं I need to match that. So, it's I even though I wanna say I wanna hopefully have a cafe and eat down the line maybe it's gonna be even later than that क्योंकि मैं यह नहीं चाहता कि यार मैं सिर्फ अपने नाम के बल बोते पर एक cafe खोल लूं. Half cook किसी मिची is खोलूं? Exactly. Proper खोलूं तो proper खोलूं? Yes.

I think जो मुझे concern होगा ना वह यह होगा कि the reason why I said franchise versus restaurant focused thing कि मेरे दिमाग में as as as अगर मैं business को analyze करूं तो दो तीन thoughts आती हैं. पहले thought यह आती है कि there is a food is a very interesting category because there is a lot of this sort of fight between कराची and इस्लाहाबाल or I would say south and north. जिसमें आप कुछ भी कर लें तो for some reason ना कराची वालों को वह north के खाने की taste की समझ ही नहीं आती और quite frankly अब मैं इसके ऊपर बड़े लोग नालाबी होते हैं but मुझे कराची के to it, right? आप कराची वाले flavors बनाएंगे वह स्नाहाबाद में नहीं चलेंगे. आप स्नाहाबाद वाले flavors चलाएं, वह कराची भी नहीं चलेंगे. And so then one one does have to think कि यार मुझे कहीं ना कहीं एक sort of बहुत novelty की तरफ नहीं जाना. मुझे एक standardization की तरफ जाना है जो कि यानी कि McDonald's चलता है ना? वह north में भी चलता है, south में भी चलता क्योंकि वह इतना base है कि वह चल जाता है. दूसरा जो thought आती है वही आती है कि अगर आप यह सोचते हैं कि यार मैंने एक बड़ी organization है like एक बड़ा वह बनाना है, restaurant बनाना है जो कि कल को eventually London में भी हो और New York में भी हो. So उसके लिए आपको ना certain systems दरक़ार होते हैं जो कि बहुत early on आपको implement करने पड़ेंगे तो आप फिर वह चीज़ build करेंगे. अगर आप एक मुनाल जैसा restaurant खोल लेंगे तो आप शायद चार पांच मुनाल खोल लें लेकिन उससे ज़्यादा बाकी नहीं जा सकते because, you know, they have, 50 things on the menu and it's it's very difficult to re to multiply. Yes, definitely. Right? And the reason why I'm asking you this question, I'm I'm not sure Pakistan में क्योंकि मैं Dubai में था for a for a very long time and इस्लामाबाद अब मैं आता हूं तो मुझे unrecognizable लगता है जितना rapidly वह grow कर रहे हो और जितना नए restaurants खुल चुके हैं और उतने क्या खुश हो रहा है? But मैंने एक Pakistan से बाहर यह opportunity देखी जो कि मैं food के अंदर particularly देख रहा हूं. I don't know आप देख रहे हो, नहीं देख रहे हो. गोरे या यह different international vloggers जब भी आते हैं तो they absolutely love पाकिस्तानी food. For Right? They go nuts about पाकिस्तानी food and I have had food in Dubai. Have had food in The US. Honestly, the food in the world sucks. अगर आपने पाकिस्तानी खाया हो गया, ठीक है? बिल्कुल इसी तरह. You know, and हम अभी तक उस food को export नहीं कर पाए. India जो है Indian food is a thing, right? Big Bang theory देखते हैं, यह देखते वह देखते तो Indian food का आता है. यार Indian food is the same flavor. It is one curry flavor जो पंद्रह dishes के अंदर वही flavor आपको मिलता है. And आपको यह realize होता है कि yes because they just because of their strength and the fact that they have started to think in systems, They are able to create things जो कि गोरा भी कर लेते हैं. But अगर मैं US में जिस तरह मैं गया तो जितने भी पाक्सानी restaurants हैं ना वह बस बस चल रहे हैं. वहां आंटों ने किसी ने खोल लिया. वह किसी gas station में इधर उधर और बस वह देशियों को target कर रहे हैं. अच्छा Indian जो है वह गोरे को target रहा है. वह fine dine की तरफ भी चला गया Indian food पर. बहुत सारे और उसमें चला गया Franchise कर रहा है वह. दो दो सौ outlets खुल रहे हैं. तो वहां पर मुझे होता है कि you know what पाकिस्तानीs particularly पाकिस्तानीs who have who have built a strong muscle. Why are they unable to take their food global considering the fact कि early validation मिल गई है. गोरा आ रहा और तारीफ करके जा रहा और कह रहा यार ज़बरदस्त खाना है. But somehow we've been unable to export and I'm not saying कि यार Chicago में कोई एक पाक्सानी restaurant खुला हुआ है तो उधर देसी जाए खाते हैं. That's not export. That is you still trying to tailor to the देसी crowd. Yeah. If you wanna really वह जैनि आपका जैसा मतलब Turkish बंदा था जिसने पूरी दुनिया में खोल लिए और इतना खेल हो गए हैं जो कि अपने brands export कर रहे हैं. वह चीज़ Pakistan में नहीं वन पा रही So that's why I'm curious कि would would you want to be a bit more systematic with the way that you run the restaurant business? Food is food. Yeah. But then business is like a different thing I altogether,

think that makes for a whole lot of the conversation which I am actually excited to delve into. I think I would be honest I think initially मैं system के साथ ही चलना चाहूंगा and I think that is what a lot of restaurants out here या cafes या bakeries जो आप देखते हैं वह इसी उस पर खड़ी होती है. One thing that I pointed out is building on top of things and that is when you recognize अच्छा यह चीज़ काम कर रही है इसको आगे लेकर चलते हैं. I think हमारी जो पाकिस्तानी जो the people the पाकिस्तानी brands उनकी सोच यह होती है कि यार अच्छा growth का मतलब है सिर्फ franchises को ना इधर कराची में खुलिए तो लाहौर में लो, जल्द लाहौर में होगी तो पेशावर में ले जाओ. उससे आगे का वह सोचते ही नहीं है and that is something definitely missing and I think you pointed out very nicely और बात यह भी है I remember now it's been ages been like I don't know eight years back बाबा and I we went to London together और वहां पर एक बहुत मज़े का पाकिस्तानी restaurant था and there were lot of people over there लेकिन the question is that guy did a lot for his time लेकिन अभी भी अगर आप I think London जाएंगे तो I think वही एक restaurant चल रहा होगा जो पाकिस्तानी food sell कर रहा है और अगर कोई देसी food sell भी करता it's mostly Indian and पाकिस्तानी restaurant या फिर सिर्फ Indian restaurant तो the main thing is I think we have always been people who have enjoyed comfort and शायद हमें इस तरीके से society ने you know कर दिया कि यार एक level तक आप रहें तो that's the ultimate success. I think हमारी since we are changing every day our economy is changing every day as well तो जो goal आपका एक दिन होगा वह शायद हो सके अगले दिन आप कहोगे कि नहीं यार आज तो life may be this goal will not satisfy me today so then you have to do something else entirely. It's ever changing and for me personally I would in an ideal world and I hopefully I am able to do this obviously यहां पर बैठ के मैं कुछ भी कह सकता हूं. I would definitely definitely want to go international as well later on

And and I am just thinking कि यार भाई दुनिया इतनी मसी है. There is so much to do like why, why not shoot for the stars? Why do you have this sort of a glass ceiling जिस पर बस आप बैठे हुए हैं और वह गांव के बड़े हुए हैं लेकिन actual में in the in the grand scheme of things you know at all that. Yeah. तो तो I feel like कि particularly when I look at younger people they are just they their तुलुलू is the new तुलुलू वाली बातें कि उनका यह होता है कि यार हम तो Mars तक चले जाएंगे. And I think that's the energy that you need to break things and and and do interesting things. I wanna sort of wrap it up and and and move towards the conclusion. But you mentioned early on and you've I I can see that very closely in in your personality as well that religion, spirituality is a is a big part of your life. And I feel like a lot of people tend to stay away from that identity.

Mhmm.

Or even if they have it, the moment वह एक certain level of success पर चले जाते हैं तो वह फिर उसके बारे में ज़्यादा बात नहीं करते. I'm not sure if you'd be interested. Mhmm. But I'd be curious about what spirituality or religion means to you at this point in time considering what you've gone through as well if you'd be open to talk about it. For sure.

I think आपकी religion and how close you are to it it's never reaches a point जहां पर आप कह सकते यार मैं एक certain level पर पहुंच जी और मैं हमेशा ऐसे ही पर रहूंगा. It's something that goes up and down, up and down, up and down with life and where it takes you. So अगर मैं अपने आप को दो साल पहले देखूं मुझे काफी ख्याल आता है just like ok दानाल you were doing these things better तो तुम यह चीज़ अभी अपना सकता है अभी क्यों नहीं अपना पा रहे because there is a whole lot of things happening as well. उस time पर मेरी इतनी वह चीज़ें नहीं थी so it's definitely harder to balance with time as well. So now that I look upon it sitting where I am I think काफी मरतेबाना challenging हो जाता है because now with the content I push forward as well. I think मैंने हमेशा सोचा है कि you know I need to be I need to question what I do. मैं हमेशा अपना I think सबसे ज़्यादा बड़ा critic रहा हूं. People can go in the comments and tell me things and like you know different people can come at me लेकिन I think हमेशा मैं अपने आप को कोशिश करता हूं यार if I am not satisfied I am not satisfied and I think मैं शुरू से मेरे बचपन में ही मेरे अंदर यह चीज़ instill की गई थी या हुई थी कि I would not go beyond a certain level. तो अगर मैंने कुछ गलत काम भी किया ना मैं उसे एक हद से बढ़कर कर लूं ना तो मुझे I would feel very bad within myself. So I think that is been something that has become a part of me. तो अभी मैं उस level से आगे जा ही नहीं सकता अलहम्दलिल्लाह I think with content creation and with where I am today मैं अपना content भी put out करता ना तो मैं कोशिश करता यार उसमें ऐसी वैसी कोई चीज़ ना हो कि यार families एक साथ नहीं देख सकती या ऐसा कुछ हो जाए and people tend to really appreciate it in the comments कि यार I enjoy this with my you know children and all that and just make me feel a lot better. It's it's I am not gonna see it's it's I am not gonna say I am like an angel or anything because कोई भी नहीं है और ना ही हो सकते हैं. There was this point in life where I try to become an angel and I failed miserably क्योंकि Allah ताला ने आपको इंसान किसी वजह से बनाया and I think that is the realization and I have started seeing the world in a very different lens with all the challenges that I faced. एक आपका I think perception religion को लेकर scary perception होता है फिर एक होता है कि यार बहुत ही कोई speed perception है and then there is this middle ground and I think after a lot of shies I I have been able to find that middle ground. जहां पर मैंने अपने आप को accept करना शुरू कर दी अच्छा दाने वाल तुम कभी कभार गलती कर सकते हो. ये certain point से ज़्यादा ना जाना and गलती कर ली तो just keep it in your mind अच्छा I'll try to do better in the future You know and that is what just keeps me going because I am just like ok I am satisfied satisfied with myself and hopefully अल्लाह ताला is too and I think it has reached to a point where I have started seeing it in a very positive light as well तो मैं कुछ ग़लत करूं या फिर कुछ ग़लत हो जाए तो I just say like, ok, it's not the end of the world. It's gonna be better later on. Just try your best. So,

Mhmm. Yeah. Makes sense. Mhmm. I'm gonna wrap this up. I'm gonna ask you one last question जो मैं तमाम अपने guest से पूछता हूं but इसके context, what I want to understand is yes, you as a thought leader, as a as a famous person as well but also as a 21 year old Gen Z growing up in Pakistan, having traveled across the world so having had that exposure of the world as well. But as a young person in today's Pakistan which is a tough Pakistan, right? There's always this economic mess and nightmare that's happening. There's a lot of political chaos. There's a lot of social chaos. उसको सबको मद्देनज़र रखते हुए. धारे उसको आप पढ़ते भी होंगे, reels भी देखते होंगे, शायद Twitter पर भी देखते हों. बिल्कुल. आज का दानियाल पच्चीस साल के बाद बात के पाकिस्तानों कैसे देखता है? Without any ups and buts कि अगर हमने ऐसा कर लिया तो वैसे हो जाएगा, अगर वैसे कर लिया तो वैसे हो जाएगा. But rather just sort of, you know, just take what you have right now and extrapolate it. What's the vision for the future twenty five years from now? How do you see Pakistan in 2050?

Wow, that's a big question. I think change things are changing so rapidly कि आप ना 2050 even if you have to go that far I think अलहम्दुल अल्लाह हमने ना पिछले दस साल में ही काफी तरक्की की है for the better. So while things have gone downhill to some extent as well they have also gone upside and I would ideally think इंशालाह के the younger people I think हमने काफी तरीके से जो हमारी Gen Z है I think there is a lot of things that we have developed over time जो कहते हमारे parents में instill हुई है और उन्होंने हमारे अंदर instill किया and now us living in this twenty first century we have played around with it in such a point to such a point where I think we as a society are hopefully becoming better to some extent. Now I am not obviously idealizing the entire situation लेकिन I think if we view certain topics अब आप mental health को उठा लें, आप दूसरी चीज़ों को उठा लें. फिर आप you know you take out you think about it from a business perspective as well तो नए ideas launch हो रहे हैं. People are experimenting finally. लोग जो हैं you know चीज़ों को उस तरह नहीं देख रहे हैं जैसा वो पचास साल पहले देखते थे so twenty fifty I think alhamdulillah sorry inshaAllah people are going to stay true to who they are today and hopefully build on the dreams that they they they have right now and me myself I think I would like to contribute to the society that we will have later on. So I think we would be think we will be in a better situation overall economically and hopefully on an emotional level as well. I think we will have healthier people. That's what I'd like to hope.

Makes sense, धनियाल. You so much for coming in and sharing all that insight. It's an incredible story and I'm I'm curious to see where you go from here and particularly, you know, good luck on the cafe. कराची के again मैंने बोला कि कराची लोहौर के लोग हैं. हमेशा कहते हैं इस्लाहाबाद में खाना अच्छा नहीं होता. तो hopefully the newer generation can sort of break that curse of terrible food from इस्लाहाबाद. इंशालात, yes.

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for having me.

And for all of you guys, let me know in the comment section below. Have you seen any of दानिया's content? What do you think about that? How do you think कि आने वाले वक्त अंदर if is to open a cafe, what sort of a cafe would you like to visit? What are your thoughts generally overall about food and food content on digital and social media? Let me know in the comment section below. But nonetheless, was the same as my lesson ज़ेदी for watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.