The man quietly connecting rural Pakistan to the internet

सामने ख़बद दिना रज़ रात welcome back to another episode of thought behind. Thanks आज हमारे साथ मौजूद हैं. एक बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान जिनको बुलाने का मकसद यह था कि थोड़ा सा मैं personally I believe कि internet जो है ना वह एक basic human right वन चुका है. Telecommunication internet in particular क्योंकि हम जितना रोटी कपड़ा मकान कहते हैं कि हर इंसान का एक बुनियादी हक़ है. उसी तरीके से I feel like access to information in the new knowledge economy जिसके पास नहीं है unfortunately उसको एक by-by design जो है ना एक lack of basic access है जिसकी वजह से ज़ाहिर है कि उसकी chances of success automatically कम हो जाते हैं which is why I just feel like के every human being who is born in Pakistan or the world should have that very basic opportunity to connect to the internet and उसके लिए आज हमारी दावत दी है हरिश महमू चौधरी साहब who is the chief executive officer of universal service fund an organization or a fund essentially designed to ensure के Pakistan में जो underserved areas हैं, जो देहात हैं, जो rural areas हैं, जहां पर अभी तक internet, high speed internet अभी तक नहीं पहुंचा, वह connect हो सके and you know everybody has the access to the knowledge economy. हरिज़ भाई thank you so much for being part of the show. Thank you. Thank you for having me over. मैं conversation को थोड़ा सा शुरू करूंगा. पहले तो मुझे बताएं कि आप पैदा कहां पर हुए थे और early life आपने कहां पर कुछ आ रही है? I was born in लाहौर

लेकिन मेरी early schooling और जो early days of growing वह इस्लाम बाद में थी. So my father was a government officer, VBHR of इस्लाम बाद. And, मेरी schooling इस्लाम बाद में I started with grammar. उसके बाद there is another school, toddlers academy, then beacon house and then barrier. So, initial schooling जो है इस्लामपाद में. Beacon House मार्ग्ला? Beacon House मार्ग्ला. अच्छा, maybe मैं मार्ग्ला campus हूं. Right. I was there for school from two years. Very cool. Before I went to Beria over there. Very cool. And so, school आपने Beria से किया? High school मैंने Beria से किया. ज़बरदस्त and what year did you graduate? '94.

Right. So university के लिए what was the thought process उस time? You

know, initially I was never a very bright student I would say academically. अच्छा. You know, I was an average but I think intelligence level मेरा थोड़ा सा, मेहनत कम करता था, वह थोड़ा सा सा better था. So I used to get, you know, decent, numbers. You're a smart worker rather than a hard worker. I don't know who's smart. But, know, my father always used to say कि यार, I don't want कि तुम top three में आओ या top five में हो but you should be well versed with what's going around the world. Right. तो मैं मेरे साथ उनकी बात को आगे लेकर चलता था. मैं कहता था जी मुझे भी पता है. So I always try to you know sports में आगे पीछे. So initially then I after finishing from पहरिया I went to, I wanted to go to a college जहां पर मैं cricket team में खेल सकूं और फरहा कर सकूं. So, मुझे, so I मैंने जबरदस्ती admission लिया इस्लाम बाद college for boys में cricket team के पीछे. Sportsman वन जाऊं, you know, उन दिनों इमरान खान and it was ही मक्रम and you know like सरफालतामाज जैसे, you know, big legends. And we were just inspired by all of them and you know, we wanted to be one of them and so, you know, so I did not know what to do. So जब मैंने college ख़त्म किया और you know, I realized you have to go. So my father said कि अब तुमने मुझे नहीं लगता तुम doctor engineer तो वन नहीं सकते. तो तुम क्या करोगे? तो मैंने सोचा मैंने देखा so and you know I thought he said कि तुम भाई चला जाओ, do economics पढ़ लो, political science पढ़ लो. Politics में मेरा हमेशा से interest भी था. But you know unfortunately I could not go to Pakistan से by any so I got into Beria University यहां पर. So, यहां पर मैं आया तो I started with BPA, business administration. I really liked it. 96 में start किया? 96 में. We were the one of the first two batches of them. Very good, decent environment अच्छा, college भी था, sports भी थी वहां पर. So I started from there and then I realized कि maybe यह finance, accounting, banking मुझे attract कर रही है economics and फिर 97 में मैंने internship किया है यह भी रामारों bank में. So it was a very high preferred customers का एक bank होता था FCA. I feel like that's the one that converted eventually into FCA Bank. Yes. ABN AMRO to RBS. RBS and into FCA Bank. Right. So, know, जब मैंने वहां पर internship था, I was really fascinated, you know, people getting dressed up nicely, going to office and meeting high network customers and solving their issues and, you know, the news of Islamabad are coming there and so I thought this is something which I want to do. Right. And then, अभी मैं कर ही रहा था, then, you know, Pakistan के finance mistake शौक्त थी, सब आ गए वह भी ex banker थे. And then I thought, you know, banking is something, you know, tax me. Yeah. And I thought कि मेरी interpersonal skills भी अच्छी हैं, पढ़ना भी ज़्यादा नहीं पड़ता and I know I got it. When I finished it, तो I started with Citibank, श्रामाद as a training officer. Mhmm. But my father and I also wanted कि, you know, मैं थोड़ा सी अपनी education improve करना. So then, know, I, went to America, did my MBA there. Right. कहां से? New York tech से. And, after graduating from there, then again I wanted to work in a banking sector. So I got an opportunity to work with Citibank New York. That was my first job, after finishing my MBA.

How was that experience? I mean, living in Islamabad all your life and then, New York, financial capital of the world, and then you land in Citibank. Right? So what was that like? Initially, to be honest,

it was so much overwhelming. कि New York, you know, you walk five blocks and you hear like all kind of languages. Yeah. You know, you have come across all kind of cultures and everything. Initially it was overwhelming then I started liking, I started loving it. And then जब मैं graduate हो रहा था तो opportunity थी New York से बाहर की भी एक and but I thought कि I never gonna leave New York. अच्छा,

specially इस्लामाबाद से ना? Mean, the it's

it's as opposite to इस्लामाबाद that it can get. Absolutely absolutely. So then I started working with Citibank New York and had a great run in terms of learning, in terms of you know कि किस तरह banking structure होती है, how these financial wizards come up with deals and transactions and how they change you know. एक लगता कुछ नहीं है कमरे में बैठकर what they come out and you know millions of dollars and billion dollar of dollars. Really fascinated me, he liked it. कितने देर से आपने वहां पर? I was there almost two years. Right. And then, being the eldest, in the family and, you know, my sister got married and my younger brother is going for college. So, you know, my father didn't say but he wanted me to come back. So, I came back and I thought when I came back, I thought कि यार, you know, मुझे तो होगा तो मुझे हर bank कोई भी होगी यह top करें. But, you know, you'll be surprised if for three months I could not find a job. अच्छा. With two years of experience with CBN New York and MBA and a decent MBA, and I thought I'm street smart also. I have the ability to sell myself and I you know can get a decent. और यह कौन सा साल चल रहा दो हज़ार बोलूं? It is 2003. Three? Right. And but I could not. Then finally you know friend of mine invite me जो मिलता start करो and then I started working with Stan and सेहार्थ. Right. I worked it for three months and moved, got into AB and Ambro where I really wanted to go work and and that's where, within a year then I I settled myself. I did what I had in my mind and then I became vice president at the age of 27. अच्छा. Within three years मैं किस पैन में मैं vice president वन गया and then I was moved from इस्लामबा to कराची as a head of Van Gogh Preferred Banking which was the head of wealth management. Right. And, from there I have to decide what I wanted to do. And because उस time पर ABNAMO wrap up था and, so I had an opportunity to get a job outside Pakistan. Singapore maybe, Dubai maybe. So Dubai was obviously was booming at that time and growing and DIFC बना था financial sector. So I thought कि taxes भी वहां पर नहीं हैं तो why not? So then I started working with Credit Suisse. एक होती थी वहां पर DIFC में. Worked there for three years and then with Barclays Capital three years again. Both in Dubai? Both in Dubai. And In so I had no मतलब you know मुझे कोई alarm भी नहीं था कि मैं कभी telecom या technology ले लिए कुछ चीज़ करूंगा. But then blessing in disguise, वह हुआ यह कि, बाग़लिस ने wrap up किया, Middle East से और Pakistan से. So they gave me an option of moving to London or Africa, which I thought कि no, it's not something I want to do. Thought कि I'm a very sorted banker. मैं तो Dubai में कोई और bank मुझे hire कर लेगा and I gave myself three months कि within three months मैं अगर मिल गया तो ठीक otherwise but I'm not moving out of Dubai. Otherwise I'll go back to Pakistan और वही हुआ. तीन महीनों में I had an opportunity to be interviewed by three major banks to the last, level लेकिन तीन महीनों में didn't work out. Right? The day I landed और उसके हफ़्ते दस में I started getting calls. That you know, I am not going back. And I sat here and then I, you know, I I was because I saw that my father was very happy to see my son, his own, you know, first grandson and my mother living by themselves. So that motivated me कि यार कुछ हड़सा यहां पर रहते हैं देखते हैं. So luckily there's opportunity came up. I was just I was sitting in a coffee shop and someone said क्या यार you doing nothing? एक position है CFO की, एक fund है. उसका मैंने सुना भी नहीं था वह USF fund था. अच्छा. भाई तो why don't you apply there and just work there? Again, what year is this? Was 2012 end, last. Oh, so you've been with the fund for a decade? For a decade now, yeah. Wow. And so I applied and, you know, I they liked me and they so they was a very interesting interview question which I tell a lot of people and I was मैंने कहा पता नहीं यहां पर होना है कि नहीं होना, but let's go there. So you're not a chartered accountant. Why would we hire you as a CFO? मैंने कहा, are you looking for an accountant or a CFO? I thought कि a CFO has accountants under them and they give their vision and, you know, planning and budgeting and everything and accountants तो उससे bookkeeping कर रहे होते हैं और तो balance कर रहे होते हैं. I know but मतलब even if this is something then maybe it's on the right job for me. So I think that answer really liked by the interview committee and they offered me and I started. जब मैं तो obviously वह government का एक institute है ministry of IT का. So, you know, so I was little like यार मैं कहां आ गया हूं? So my mental wavelength with a lot of people was not, you know, what I thought would match. The environment was very, something, you know, bank statement was very open. You can just go walking. It was also different था. People were waiting, you know, come and talk to me and, you know, asking कि आप कितने बजे available हैं? I said, ok, ठीक है, चल रहा है. Then after couple of months I realized कि you know what we are doing मतलब जो इस काम है basically providing connectivity rural and remote areas which is so important these days. You know people living in बलूचिस्तान there you know one son of is working in Saudi Arabia. खुदाना खासा कुछ हो जाता है family में, they can't inform them. They get, you know, after, you know, four days, five days and if they have to send money, there is no way कोई मतलब, you know, there are lot of convenience and Yeah, all the cases connected with, तो वह नहीं है. क्या यह तो बड़ा I would say noble काम है and then we, you know, it's our job, we like it. So I started liking it and I bit bit build, you know, bit of an interest in it and फिर actually when I got an opportunity to became an acting CEO, when our CEO की term ख़त्म हुई है and then I was being CFO, I was given a chart. So, yeah, I can do a lot of things. So, why not pursue this as a career and technology is the way forward और Pakistan के लिए सबसे important है कि हम लोग technology हर किसी को दें. इससे economic empowerment भी आएगी और social empowerment भी आएगी. It's the easiest thing what we can provide to our nation and that's how I just got in and then I applied for a full time CO role.

I think board liked me, the government liked me and then that's I got in there. And how long have you been the CEO? Almost three years. Two years? Three years, almost three years. Interesting. मुझे यह बताएं कि थोड़ा सा give me the history of the fund itself. When did it start? What was the original vision and how is it structured? क्योंकि government organizations by and large, Pakistan में efficiently चल नहीं सकी, public sector organizations overall. कुछ कुछ हमने देखी जो जिसको हम कह सकते हैं honorable mentions, नादराबाद being one of them, USF being one of them and यह अपने इतने छोटे silos में काम करें rather than होना तो यह चाहिए था कि इनको test case बनाना चाहिए था कि यार what is, what did we do right here so that we can maybe extrapolate that to other organizations as well but I think we haven't studied them enough right? So, so tell me a little bit about the history and then overall structure and evolution of the of the fund. Ok, this fund was established in 2006

and इसके पीछे idea यही था कि wherever this commercial not viable by the telcos तो वहां पर government support करे उन areas के लिए और it has been basically created by ITU, International Telecommunications Union in 2002 and across the world wherever it is. तो Pakistan में 2006 में establish हुआ और इसमें जो सबसे एक अच्छी चीज़ है कि इसमें equal partnership है public और private sector. What I mean is that कि we have equal representation from the private sector and the public sector in the board. So it's not dominated by the federal government or by the government but जो लोग इसमें और इसमें contribution भी सारे यह licenses ही करते हैं. So it's not a fund जो government कोई funding कर रही है. So there's a levy which is 1.5% of their registered gross revenue. So which they contribute every year to this fund. And then this fund is managed by Ministry of IT and Telecom. There's an independent board of directors, जिसके अंदर यह under यह company हाथी हैं and they use this fund for the rural and remote areas. Right. So decision making is, is a discussion between,

the board which consists 50% of the government and 50% of the private sectors? Absolutely absolutely. Interesting. And the private sector जो है वह normally board members जो हैं वह किस तरह से identify होते हैं? मतलब are they from all of the telecom companies या वह सारी मिलकर एक consortium बनाकर कुछ certain set of people भेजते हैं? How does that work? It's basically nomination.

Right. Like cellulars वाले जितने भी हैं एक एक CEO को nominate कर देते हैं. Right. And इसी तरह fixed time वाले यह लोग nominate कर देते हैं. Internet service providers वाले nominate और एक consumer का representative होता है. Right. So that's how they nominate and government के सारे ex officers होते हैं. So that's how the board is being constituted and you know we discuss in the board what needs to be done. So there's input from the public sector and there's input from the private sector and that's how it's being run.

Interesting and tell me a bit about the evolution, right? So what has all been achieved? अगर मुझे एक वह एक presentation होती है ना हर organization की गई ना हमारा impact वह क्या है? So what would that look like? Ok.

इसको what I'll I'll just explain you is that कि 02/2019 when the fund was established, Universal Service Fund has deployed approximately 1,800 towers and have deployed approximately, 8,000 kilometer fiber. 2019 से to date, we have deployed, over 2,000 towers, and we have contracted over 12,000 kilometers of fiber, out of which approximately 6,000 is being laid on the ground. Right. Ok, अब you will ask कि why इतना ज़्यादा काम इस रहा है, कैस रहा? So when I took over SEO immediately COVID. So COVID has made us realize कि technology internet can do wonders. So बहुत ज़्यादा लोगों ने realize किया कि internet अगर हो तो आपकी education health system चल सकता है. इसी तरह telecom operators ने भी realize किया कि हां यह fund पड़ा हुआ है और यह इस्तेमाल उस speed से नहीं हो रहा जिस speed से होना चाहिए. इन्हीं का पैसा है. यह लोग contribute करें यह वापस नहीं जा रहा. उसकी example यह है कि 60,000,000,000 was contracted from 2006 to '19 और '19 से आज तक it was over 75,000,000,000. So in three and a half years we have contracted much more than what was done in thirteen years. So so all the operators and government के साथ हमने बैठ के we decide कि this fund needs to be exploited used in an efficient and a very robust manner ताकि connectivity immediately जो है rural remote areas में जाए. That's how the fund has been evolved. अब आपको मैं impact की बात बताऊं so अगर Pakistan का overall four g का network है So, USF की contribution over 10% है. और अगर मैं बलूचिस्तान की बात करूं तो बलूचिस्तान में four g की contribution is roughly around 40%. Right. So, because majorly वहां पर गया है Fund के और 40% ही total fund बलूचिस्तान में लगा है. So अगर आप four G वहां पर देखते हैं या three G वहां पर देखते हैं बलूचिस्तान में, so वह 40% जो contribution है वह universal service fund की support, ministry of IT की support से वहां पर क्या है? Interesting.

अगर आपने passive income के बारे में परेशान है ख़ासकर आजकल की economy में जहां पर already cash continuously burn हो रहा है और inflation हमें मार रही है तो I am proud to announce that this video is in partnership with समाया Financials. They are offering two very very cool trainings. Capital market fundamentals जिसमें आप stocks और mutual funds में invest करना सीखेंगे और understand करेंगे कि आखिर एक company के अंदर क्या ऐसे fundamentals होते हैं जिनको आपने देखा होता है to figure out कि वह एक अच्छी company है to invest in और दूसरी training है technical analysis master class जिसमें आप सीखेंगे कि किस तरीके से हम different tradable assets like commodities, forex, stocks, crypto के अंदर थोड़े से पैसे लगाकर बहुत ज़्यादा पैसे बना सकते हैं. Personally यह training मैंने भी ली है and it's absolutely phenomenal. The link to the trainings are in the description below. Check them out and become financially healthy and now back to the podcast. मुझे अगर यह बताएं and this is this is phenomenal right? बताते हैं लोगों को यह पता ही नहीं होता कि government किस level पर support करके यह connectivity कर रही है but मुझे थोड़ा सा यह बताएं कि Pakistan में इस वक़्त what's the ratio of connectivity versus dead zones? Both in terms of अगर मैं कहता हूं कि यार कितना Pakistan ऐसा है और उसको हम दो तरीकों से देख सकते हैं. I think एक थोड़ा dumb तरीका होगा जो कि land mass को देखेगा जिसमें a lot of the land mass may just not be populated, right? To begin with उसकी requirement भी नहीं है. But एक होगा population के around कि actual में populated areas क्या हैं और उसमें कितना percent ऐसा है जो कि जिनको actually access ही नहीं होगा ना भी चाहते हैं तो उनको मिल नहीं सकता there is actually no cellular connectivity. तो एक तो dead zone versus cellular connectivity and एक चलो cellular connectivity भी शायद है but high speed internet कितना इस वक़्त उसका कितना sort of black zone या dead zone exist करता है जिसको potentially आप fix करेंगे? Ok.

इसका अगर मैं breakdown करूं कि हमारी जो tele density है पूरे Pakistan की वह is approximately 88%, 88 to 89% है which means 12% अभी भी ऐसा है जो कि नहीं है. जिसमें cellular ही नहीं है मतलब जिसमें जिसमें कोई connectivity नहीं है. Right. अच्छा इसको हम further अगर breakdown करें अगर हम बात करें mobile broadband की जो 3G और 4G customers हैं, I would say slightly over 50% है. So, जो remaining 50% उनके पास 3G, 4G नहीं है. अब हम इसको अगर बात करें जिससे आपने high speed की बात की, जिस fiber to home कहते हैं या, you know fixed line के Broadband है. Broadband की जो connectivity है वह बहुत कम है. वह subscribers हमारे सिर्फ I think 4,000,000 के आस पास हैं. वह अगर percentage में देखा जाए तो वह बिल्कुल 5% है. That is something where because हमारी growth जो है वह telecom mobile broadband में बहुत हुई है लेकिन fixed में growth नहीं हुई. उसमें major reason वह है कि because अभी क्योंकि fiber लेकर ना is a capital intensive and labor intensive भी है. And then हमारे यहां right way के challenges भी थे. जो right of way की challenges की policy government ने अभी कोई दो साल पहले approve हुई है जो अब IAS implement और अब इस पर fiber पर काम हुआ और मेरे लिए भी fiber is very close to my heart because हमारे जो towers हैं वह तकरीबन 10% है जो fiber से connected है. बाकी सारे wireless से हुए हैं और China में the ratio is opposite. Bangladesh में I think 35, 40% है. India में भी इससे ज़्यादा है. Indonesia में India में 60%. So we are far behind that. So that's why we have launched a program of fiber to UC. So for example अगर Pakistan में roughly साढ़े छह हज़ार union councils हैं और उसमें तकरीबन 1,800 union councils हैं जिसमें fiber का note है. वह 1,800 union council भी कौन सी वाली हैं? इस्तामाल और कराची, गुजरामाल, सियालकुर, बड़े बड़े जो metropolitan facilities हैं. उसके आगे बहुत कम हैं. So we launched a program which is कि fiber to UC. Every UC will have a fiber node. By what time? So we're looking at 2028. Right. Another six, five years I would say. Every UC? Every UC would like to But, yeah yeah, every UC में होना चाहिए. Right. अब उस पर जो हमने basic अभी homework किया है, so we need approximately roughly 40,000 kilometer of fiber. Right. And we have contracted over around 12,000 kilometers of fiber. So we're gonna do another 28,000. So again, हम six, seven thousand kilometer average every year करें so we'll be able to meet that target. And what's the cost potential?

Not adding inflation but what's the rough cost to actually connect every UC to fiber?

You know, the cost is huge and it's growing day by day. So basically every kilometer अगर मैं आपको जिसने बताया forty thousand minutes so it's roughly around 2 and a half million rupees per kilometer. Right. That translates into 100,000,000,000 rupees. So that's a huge cost to cover that. So obviously, you know, we have funding, but we don't have that kind of funding. So, you know, eventually we will have to raise funding if we have to continue with this with this program. Interesting.

क्योंकि वह वरना तो sustainable नहीं है ना वह तो बहुत फिर बहुत time लगेगा या तो government को एक special program इसकी importance समझे और उसको special program में funding वगैरह provide करें. जो खैर आजकल के हाला थोड़े से हैं भी hopefully until I will see better days. Do you think a large part of the lack of broadband connectivity is because fiber exist ही नहीं करती or do you think कि incentivization भी उस तरह से exist नहीं करती? What I mean by that is कि, बाहर आप देखते हैं ना तो आपको जो wireless broadband है, उसके price point और घर के broadband के price point में एक difference नज़र आता है. So more often than not wireless broadband जो है वह बहुत capped होता है. Four GB, eight GB, 15 GB. And the idea what they're targeting is कि यार you're always connected to Wi Fi and you're just using the wireless connectivity on the go. And so they so for example, let's say कि, $50 का एक घर का connection है, and then $50 का mobile का package है. तो घर का connection है and that is, like, unlimited with let's say a cap of 400 GB and then the बाहर का connection is like ten, twelve GB, right? So that by design is an incentivization for you to get a a घर का connection. But Pakistan में आपको wireless दो सौ GB मिल रहा है. Broadband as a matter of fact जो fiber optic broadband है जो कि most people मैं आपको बताऊं मैंने अपने घर पर लगाया हुआ है. मेरी जो fixed line internet 50 दो lines लगी हुई है एक I think 100 Mbps की लगी हुई है अगर हमारा काम ऐसा होता है upload download होता है लगा. तो 100 Mbps का एक एक line लगी हुई है जो which cost में roughly I think 20,000 tax वग़ैरह मिलाकर, एक 50 Mbps की लगी हुई है which cost में maybe what 9,000?

हां, $910,000, yeah. Right?

As a backup और फिर जब मैं four G का एक connection लेता हूं ना चार तीन हज़ार रुपए का तो वह मेरा jazz जो है वह मुझे साठ सत्तर MB दे देता है उसके ऊपर. तो more often than not होता यह है कि मेरा जो fixed line वाला है मैं उसको छोड़कर मैं उनसे कहता हूं यार convert करो foreign से upload करो क्योंकि बहुत speed तो इसमें मिल जाएगी. There is literally no real incentive for me to go towards the fixed line when these operators are giving. बहुत अच्छी बात है वह दे रहे हैं you know public का फ़ायदा है. But then how do you, how do you encourage people कि वह fiber to the home पर आएं? क्योंकि I feel like the way that it's sort of panning out I feel like everybody is just gonna be like it's a no brainer, right? Just get that device. वह जो Wi Fi वाली device आती है आजकल और उस पर चलाओ बजाय इसके कि you know यह पूरी इतनी ख़प्त के साथ एक fiber optic एक cable घातक लेकर आओ and उसकी cost overrun भी है बाहर बाहर. So how do you see that? Exactly,

ऐसा ही है. अब जिस तरह मैंने कहा ना कि fiber लेकर नए capital और labor intensive. उसके return भी बहुत आराम से आते हैं और हमारे पास इसलिए और there was no policy right away. So fiber एक किस्म की incentive ही नहीं था किसी के लिए, lay करना भी, companies के लिए भी. So इसलिए जो companies जिन्होंने भी lay fiber किया उन्होंने अपने towers को connect किया और towers को connect करके उन्होंने इसी तरह Wi Fi करके दिया और you know जिस तरह west में या developing developed countries में fiber to home और you know fiber to every you know जितने भी उनके school, colleges वह fiber के साथ connect होते हैं. वह वहां पर क्योंकि fiber थी, incentive अच्छे थे, policies अच्छी थी जिन्होंने किया. यहां पर opposite हुआ. यहां पर mobile broadband की growth बहुत हुई है. Well easy to do and then you know कोई as such policy design ही नहीं की गई कि वो you know fixed broadband के लिए भी हो और fixed broadband के players भी नहीं थे. मतलब आप देखें कि नहीं चुने तो you have only PTCL. अब Neattel and Cybernet and you know FiberStorm वह आए हैं लेकिन वह बहुत सिर्फ metropolitan में. That's why. अब mobile broadband के दिनों five players पर वह four में हुए. So this you know तो उनके लिए growth incentive भी ज़्यादा था. उन्होंने aggressive growth के लिए you know एक simply strategy भी की है. Right but why do you think जिस तरह again अगर मैं यही जो मैं पहले अपना anecdote लिख वो बता रहा था अगर मैं यही चीज़ जाकर देखूं US के अंदर तो US में Google launch this fiber thing and then eventually this is followed as well

कि ठीक है five g is is is very very fast and we know we'll we'll talk about five g as well. उसके अपने बहुत सारे challenges हैं. तो I feel like कि this time today and versus जो five g की deployment जब भी हम देखेंगे उसके दरमियान there is a there is an incredible opportunity for the fiber optic folks to actually provide higher speeds at you know better cost. Yes. But मतलब मुझे अगर बीस हज़ार तो I don't need to have individualized packages of चार चार चार चार हज़ार रुपए वह same ही वन जाएगा. But if the if the speed is either the same and more often than not less than what you're getting on Neo4G then it doesn't make any sense. So obviously you have inside you have someone in the board as well जो कि आपके Yeah, fixture. ISB से आ रहे Why do you think कि वह speeds नहीं बढ़ सके? एक एक एक road block आ गया है. बढ़े speed से बढ़ रही थी पहले speeds, double हो जाती थी आठ सौ रुपए बाद, two MB तो four MB तो.

So वह भी एक एक challenge है that's why you know the quality of आपकी service को भी effect होता है और आपकी जो ना speed जिस time की what you saying is that you you know एक further से grow नहीं कर रही होती है. इसलिए वह सिर्फ जो है fixed line ही आपको वह सिर्फ़ 10% है जो fiber से connected है. वह भी सिर्फ़ metropolitan cities में है. जिसकी obviously you know impact है और वह चीज़ नहीं होती पाती. Right.

जब हम telecom की बात करते हैं and I wanna talk about the the economics of it. A lot of times जब दुनिया भर में हम देखते हैं तो वह they have a very structured approach, in terms of contracts हैं, right? हमारा तो prepaid बहुत ज़्यादा active है और I think developing world by and large में ऐसा ही है. But आप developed world में जाते हैं तो वह हर चीज़े contracts होते हैं. वह कहते हैं कि जा रहा बारह क्योंकि उस commitment से their economic modeling becomes much easier, right? Pakistan में तो यह है कि यार आपने एक sim ख़रीदी है. तीन दिन बाद वह दूसरे network ने बोला कि यार SIM लगाओ campaign and फिर आप उस पर shift करके, फिर आप तीसरे पर shift करके. Same with, your fixed line as well कि अब वह उन्होंने यह भी कर दिया है कि यार आप free में लगवा लें, बस आप लगवा लें. तो they would, people would adhere to कि यार है मैंने बारह महीने इस चीज़ को करना है उससे एक certain cost आनी है. Do you think it's lack of contract enforcement? क्या वजह है कि हमारी industry उस तरह से नहीं operate कर सकती in a much more structured way? क्योंकि I don't think my understanding is it's not it's it's not a regulation in the developed world जिसकी वजह से ही करी है. Industries ने sort of internally अपने आप को sort of एक एक एक playbook बनाई हुई है कि इस पर तो हमने यह करना है. Pakistan में वह चीज़ exist नहीं करती है. Why do you think that's so? I think because हमारी

industry भी उस term इन contracts perspective से mature नहीं हुई and you know हमारा you know we were like late for five years five to six year in fact of launching 3G and 4G. We launched in 2014 auction हमारी हुई. हमारी neighboring countries और बाकी सब में 2007 और eight में हो चुकी है. So we were five years behind है. But now I think यह sense अब industry के अंदर एक आ रही है. They wanted to bring these things on the table and discuss कि you know यह यह चीज़ें अब इस्तार होनी चाहिए. अब जितना आप हमारा ARPU which is average rate per user है is lowest. I think Bangladesh, Somalia, Somalia जैसी country का भी हमसे double है. So Bangladesh हमारे neighbor हैं वह भी हमसे almost double है. उनकी more less जो GDP economics और telecom की भी more or less की जो एक किस्म का sketch है वह काफी similar है. Right. India भी and you know अब then Europe and Middle East तो बहुत मतलब you know multiples of hundreds हैं उनका आपू. So I think यह भी factor है कि जो telcos को या license holders को motivate नहीं करता या उनको incentivize नहीं करता कि इन चीज़ों पर करें. I think अब यह एक जो है industry के अंदर यह feel एक किस्म की understanding भी build हो रही है और एक यह आ भी रही है कि we need to come come up with you know ideas like contracts and everything. जिसमें एक minimum floor pricing या एक pricing हो जिसकी वजह से वह determine हो ताकि वह sustainable भी हो और उनके भी financials उनको effect ना करें. Make sense. एक अगर मैं चीज़ identify करूं,

very recently we've seen जाहिर है के financial crunch जो Pakistan में आया है वह telecom industry को बहुत ज़्यादा massively impact किया है और इसके ऊपर you know both आमिर इब्राहिम and जो तेलंगार के CEO हैं उन्होंने भी have tweeted about it and they've been very vocal कि यार we have been unable to sustain during this financial. Actually by and large any industry is the same but they are also there. अच्छा उसकी वजह से हमने एक चीज़ यह देखी जो कि बहुत सारे लोग they probably experience it but don't realise it. एक एक certain level of service degradation होना शुरू हो गई है. जिसमें you know again आपका signal जो है वह जो चार पांच बार जा रहे होते थे वह एक दो बार जाना शुरू हो गए हैं. Internet का जो four g आपका appear हो भी रहा शायद काफ़ी जफ़ा पर आप काफ़ी different towers में connect होते हैं और आपको speeds नहीं मिल रही होती. और उसका you know my understanding is कि what they started doing is they've ration started rationing कि किस जगह पर हमने cost लगानी है, किस जगह पर लाई जाती है तुमने generator on करना भी है. Cut off the generator there because the cost is more than the actually revenue that we generate. And so when they begin to obviously optimize तो वह serviced quality degradation बहुत ज़्यादा होती है और उसको धारे के कोई भी control नहीं कर सकता हालात ख़राब है तो वह ऐसा ही opportunity होगा. But when when it comes to for example you guys fiber का तो मुझे समझ आ गई यार एक backbone है बिच गई उसके बाद फिर it's just a matter of the economy playing its its role and one way or the other eventual deployment हो जाएगी. Right? So वह तो एक infrastructure है highway बना दी. आज नहीं भी है गाड़ियां eventually वह गाड़ियां ख़रीदेंगे highway इस्तेमाल करना शुरू कर देंगे. But the cell tappers that you're deploying, how do you ensure that they are actually used? एक बात होती है ना कि मैं उस तरह देखता development sector में काफ़ी दवाई स्त्रणा होता कि वह जाते हैं और जाकर यह पानी का वह लगा देते हैं underserved areas के अंदर पानी के different यह filtration plants. And I worked at the World Bank तो उसके अंदर I was in the water and sanitation program. उसमें पता ही लगा कि majority of the filtration plants जो लोग पैसे देकर लगाते हैं वह normally एक से दो महीने के बाद बंद पड़े होते और वह पूरी cost लगकर संघ cost होती है. And they created an entire model where they were like कि यार एक रुपया So उस तरह का कोई model exist करता है because commercial viability तो नहीं है. You're going in an underserved area. वहां पर obviously customers exist नहीं करते. वहां का तो अभी पूरा एक process है of allowing for people to understand कि चाहे अब यह telecoms connected हैं, अब हमें phones ख़रीदने हैं, अब हमें you know उनका तो ARPU non existent है या बहुत ही minimal है. So how do you ensure कि वह जो आपने cell tower लगाया है वह actually चले भी for a certain amount of time? You

know telecom जो sector है especially not in rural and remote area everywhere I strongly feel it's some other of all sectors. Telecom भी basically you know आपकी हर चीज़ को connectivity को, आपकी education को, e health, e commerce, financial inclusion, digital inclusion एक बहुत important role play करता है. So when we design the project so हम देख रहे होते हैं कि कि कहां कहां हम cost को minimize कर सकते हैं ताकि वह sustainable हो. So उसमें जो सबसे important हम लोगों ने एक एक decision लिया है कुछ साल पहले वह यह है कि you know जो दूसरी वाप्ता की या दूसरी जो होता है. एक तो यह है. Secondly हमने यह program में mention किया हुआ है कि if there is a, OpEx cost which is which can be tapered down for, you know, three years के लिए है. कि पहले साल इतनी दूसरे साल इतनी तीस हैं ताकि वह उसको maintain करते रहें. उसके बाद we expect कि वह खुद बहुत sustainable है. So what we do is that कि we monitor that for five years और हमारी monitoring का department है जो कि every month उनके साथ you know, telcos के साथ in touch होता है, liaison करता है, data लेता है, data लेकर बताता है कि if there's a challenge so we ask them why there's a challenge? You know, the fund has been provided to us. You have to keep that sell जो site job आपकी है उसको open running रखनी है ताकि वो the consumer को effect ना हो. उसके बाद जो second important thing है जो थोड़ी सी awareness create करनी है उस area में. You know कि how this connectivity can benefit you in terms of your social and economic. I give you couple of examples के जब हम लोगों ने connectivity लेकर गए हैं for an area like चित्राल, you know चित्राल is a very high literate specially when it comes to girls and women. So वहां पर लोगों ने connectivity को use करनी है and it's also very famous for handicrafts. So पहले ही होता था you know people come with from इस्लाम बाल ने पिछावर would go and buy handicraft for a very meager small price और लाखियों scope middleman जो है वह बेच देता था. Connectivity से यह work उन्होंने day different have उन्होंने अपने platforms बना लिए Facebook for example so there is a program called she means business you know we launched this first time they launched with us in Pakistan. उन्होंने उनको train किया और वहां पर they started selling their handicrafts through Facebook. So they get the direct now और वो पैसे उनको कैसा मिल रहे होते हैं जिसमें jazz cash है, tell you know का easy पैसा है so they get direct money also and you know वो सारी चीज़ें दे सकते हैं. So उस area में जब एक economic empowerment आती है तो वो फिर socially भी empowered हो जाते हैं. So you know तो वो ऐसा ऐसा वो एक sensible है. Let me give you an example कि एक पंजगुर जैसे neighborhood में जो कि एक south बलूचिस्तान में भी एक very backward marginalized community है. Mom it is a girl who used to make beautiful sketches you know और उससे भी सिर्फ कोएटा और कराची से लोग आकर you know 200 rupees के आकर ले जाते हैं which is nothing and she started selling through WhatsApp and you know different Facebook और different platform से and which which contributed to her family income and जब वह family income में आई तो she started teaching dad के internet के और advantages क्यों in that neighborhood. So lot of girls started learning YouTube से makeup करना and they start charging a little bit of it and then some girls also you know started getting the you know local designer के कोएटा से इलाके और Instagram के account बनाकर different sale करना है. So you know that also basically economic activity generate कर लेती है और you know telcos का भी जो एक किस्म का उनको भी एक revenue आना शुरू हो जाता and then you know hobbies उस neighborhood में और उस family में भी एक बड़ी अच्छी activity हो जाती economic perspective and then start contribute with family. So ये सारी चीज़ें भी एक important role play करती है अगर उसको positively use किया जाए. इसलिए education में so lot of people who cannot have मतलब you know we don't have so many schools and colleges in every city and in every village और इतना hospitals भी नहीं है. So यह छोटे छोटे telehealth और e education के जो platforms है अब वहां पर गए हैं and you know a lot of schools who were out of children who were out of schools, they started teaching them through you know जो लिए तो at least उनको exposure मिलना ज़रूर interest build लिश्वरों के they wanted to take admission in schools and colleges. इसी तरह health में बहुत सारे you know metropolitan जो hospitals होते हैं वहाँ पे इतना pressure आ जाता है rural community से so they cannot concentrate on the critical patients and data बड़े clearly बताता है कि seventy percent of the patients can be treated through through either a video call or something. So you know so इससे भी एक बहुत बड़ा impact आया है. So ये चीज़ें भी ऐसी हैं जो कि rural और marginalized communities में impact करती हैं और उससे वह data भी use हो रहा होता है, calls भी हो रही होती हैं और वह एक effect पड़ जाता है उस area के लिए जिसमें एक बेहतरी आ जाती है. Makes sense.

What is the, what is the model for these cell towers? So, for example पहले वक़्तों के अंदर यह क्या आप generic cell tower डाल देते हैं और उसके बाद फिर let's say कि mobiling और jazz और U phone और Telenor can put their own sort of booster there. या आप किसी particular service provider के साथ contract करते हैं कि अरे अच्छा आप आए और आकर let's say जी मैं कहता हूं कि सिंध का contract जो है वह मैंने U phone के साथ किया और U phone उधर provide कर रहा है and then GB में let's say SEO कर रहा है या Jazz कर रहा है. तो एक तो how does that work? दूसरा मुझे बताइएगा कि जो आजकल के जमाने में अब तो वह एकदम यादव I feel like there's there was a new company that came in and and and created a sort of service provider, became a service provider for all these different providers. Infrastructure companies. हां, कि rather than them having their own towers, you know, you can just contract that out. So how does that work? Do you give it to the infrastructure company now? No, what we do is we give it to the operator. One operator.

जो इसमें जिस तरह मैंने बताया कि इस fund में contribute करता है. तो support subsidy भी वही ले सकता है. So हम एक को देते लेकिन हम उनको उस contract में bind करते हैं कि अगर कोई और operator आपके साथ sharing पर है तो you cannot say no to them. अच्छा. So you have to give them कि जी आपने उनको right देना है यह. So बलूचिस्तान में we know के बहुत सारे लोग share कर रहे हैं और पिछका करते हैं wherever they feel कि जी हमारी भी sharing हो सकती है तो वह कर सकते हैं. अब what we're trying to do is that कि इसमें हम जिसने technology evolve करें हम लोग भी evolve करें. एक national roaming का concept ला रहे हैं. अच्छा. So which means is that कि sir for example अगर हमने support subsidy दी हुई है Telenor को एक certain area में, so वह वहां पर national roaming दूसरे operators के साथ भी share कर सकेंगे और अगर for example मैं वहां का resident नहीं हूं और मैं पर Telenor की sim नहीं है, मेरे बजाज की sim है, जब मैं वहां चाहता हूं तो मैं एक slight price या maybe similar price पर वह use कर सकता हूं. So initially what we're doing is starting with highways and motorways. And then उसके बाद हम उसको बलूचिसान में सारा करना चाहिए. Then eventually wherever we're going so know they are able to pay a certain fee to Certain premium for a period of time and then Makes sense. Very

interesting and this is being driven by the USF? By USF, yes. मुझे थोड़ा सा यह बताइएगा. You know, I understand the connectivity part but you guys are very interestingly placed as a as a sort of intersection. You know, you got PTA and you got the USF. PTA being a regulatory body, regulatory bodies always are are very scary. तो, you know, they can always keep people in check, but it's difficult to drive innovation from that end. You guys have a have an interesting public private partnership, and so, you have both of the parties sitting on the table. जब हम बात करते हैं telecom connectivity की तो there are a lot of very interesting things that you can potentially do do, जो कि मुझे नहीं पता कि वह mandate का question mark एक आ जाएगा किस हद तक है. But in terms of, know, running smart, smart village programs, you know again telemedicine की आपने बात की. It's really about कि यार ठीक है यह तो एक basic बात है ना कि मैंने connect करना है. Let's assume twenty twenty eighth तक you connected all the UCs. What next? And and वहां पर पर then you can potentially पूरी दुनिया में एक concept होता है कि जब भी हम बात करते हैं innovation की तो जो जो जो the smartest people in the room already know कि यार यह telemedicine is is definitely a much more optimized way of doing things. But उसका एक buy in चाहिए होता है. आपको एक use case दिखाना होता है, एक अपने successful project दिखाना होता है कि यार इस गांव में हो रहा है तो फिर आस पास के गांव भी आ गए थे और आए कहते यार हमें क्यों नहीं मिल रहा? Right? So demand generation या demand creation वहां पर I feel like USF can play a very sort of prominent role, in in in creating demand for the layers that sit on top of the telecom. Right? So telecom तो आपने बेचा दिया but उसके ऊपर उसके अब use cases में आपने individually जाकर demand creation की. Are you guys looking at it and if you are what sort of areas are you interested in?

पहले तो मैं mandate की बात करूँ. हमारा जो mandate है वो connectivity का है. But you know, I strongly feel कि connectivity का it has to be used. मतलब you know उसकी कोई एक positive use आपको दिखाना है कि you know कि उससे आप क्या क्या चीज़ें कर सकते हैं. So we have done various programs. You know just to showcase के broadband से आप you know you can you can change you can do lot of wonder. For example हम लोगों ने Parkinson बैठल्मार के साथ partnership की और वहां पर what we did is that कि जो उनके women empowerment center जो which were originally meant for you know, you know young girls को basically they were training to get ready in their practical life like you know cooking सिखा दिया, कप्पे सोएंग सिखा दिया सब. हमने उनको computer labs दिया हमने कहा just get acquaint with the computer and see कि कैसे होता है exposure दिया कि you know what you can do और यह YouTube वाली मैंने आपको इस समय बहुत सारे example वहां से भी निकली. So now what we are trying to do is that कि एक इस्लामपाद से 25 kilometer दूर एक village है कोलकुकीना. So you just said कि smart village तो वहां पर अभी हम लोगों ने pilot program एक launch किया है with ITU and our different stakeholders. So what we trying to do over there is that कि उस village के अंदर जो कि बहुत different difficult access है मतलब you the cars can't go there you have to walk. वहां पर एक school बना हुआ है जहां पर computer app बनाई और हमने वहां पर एक platform tally तालिम के साथ वहां पर education start किया. क्योंकि वह school में पूरे school के बच्चे सारे नहीं वहां पर पढ़ा सकते थे तो उनको हमने platform दिया कि वह इस्तेमाल कर लें और वहां पर जब हम गए तो हमें यह भी realize हुआ कि grade seven के बाद वहां पर science की जो teachers ही available नहीं है so science education तो हो ही नहीं सकती. Girls के लिए specially वो girls schools है. तो हमने वहां पर इस platform में science की platform के through पढ़ानी शुरू कर दी. So you'll be surprised that within six weeks you got over 100 girls registered for it. अब इसी तरह हमने वहां पर एक telehealth का एक सैत कहानी एक platform उनके साथ मिलकर start किया कि वहां पर कोई आस पास कोई hospital या metro कोई इस तरह की चीज़ नहीं है कि जहां पर you know basic health unit हो या जहां पर हम उनको कुछ करें तो हमने telehealth start किया और वहां पर within I guess four to six weeks we've got 200 plus patients registered और उनमें से 70% females और girls थी और उन्होंने कहा कि अगर ये शायद ना होते तो हम लोग शायद अपनी ये चीज़ें dress ही ना कर पाते और वो 70% लोगों को शायद you know या either आना पड़ता है इस्लामवाद जो का obviously cost भी है, एक time भी है वो सब. Deterrent, हां. तीसरी हमने यह चीज़ वहाँ पे की registration with नादरा. कि जितने भी वहाँ पे लोग हैं उनकी registration की जाए और उनको once a while वहाँ पे नादरा का की जो इनकी जो mobile vans है वो लेकर जाए जाए ताकि ये लोग वहाँ पे जाकर कोई basics जो उनको certificate चाहिए होते हैं या renewals होती हैं वह वहां के साथ. Don't have to come all the way to Islamabad. Again, you know, obviously cost भी जानने हैं. So we're trying to have that impact in that village. उसको एक smarts a village. So it's it's in the pilot phase right now and idea is that इसको हम showcase करेंगे एक successful हो और लोगों को भी पता चले कि इसका फ़ायदा है इस connected और वहां पर हमने fiber बिछाई. Obviously internet आया तो यह सारी सब चीज़ें जो आई हैं. So उसके बाद next steps हम इसको you know ज़्यादा और जगह पर लेकर जाने जाएंगे. अभी हम इंशालाह तीन चार और करेंगे in all different provinces. KP में भी, सिन्न में भी, बलूचिस्तान में भी और Punjab में भी and we were looking for remotest villages. यहां पर सबसे ज़्यादा challenges हैं ताकि वहां पर convenience of वह हो And then eventually, you know, if if अगर हुआ तो we can maybe scale it up. Makes sense. I'm gonna bring you to to a more,

आजकल जो बहुत ज़्यादा popular conversation है, may not be the most practical one, but it is popular nonetheless. Five G, right? And we're hearing कि, पूरी दुनिया में बहुत सारे ऐसे मुमालिक हैं जहां पर five G आ रहा है. You know, और और it's not just like let's say developed world but India में और बहुत सारी countries में अब five G deploy होना शुरू हो गया. Pakistan unfortunately फिर से हम वही कहानी देख रहे हैं कि even जब हमने दो हज़ार तेरह में finally four three g four g देखा था और फिर उसके बाद first few years before it came in people were like कि you know the economics don't make sense. यह तो actually यह relevant है. हमें तो दर्बत ही नहीं है. और जब वह आ गया और उससे change impact आया तो फिर उसके दो तीन साल बाद लोगों ने आकर बोलना शुरू किया कि यार we got it too late, five years late हो गए हम तो इस वैसे you know we we missed the boat. But in Pakistan obviously we're now seeing history repeat itself in a way where between the fight of it seems like, between the fight of the private and the public sector, the consumer, बेचारा पिस रहा है जिसको access to five g नहीं मिल पा रहा. So so as a starter before I ask any sort of more technical question मुझे बताएं how do you see 5G and why do you think we haven't been able to get it yet?

You know basically एक reason वही है कि हमारा पांच cycle का cycle miss हुआ हुआ था. So हम लोगों ने 4G को भी fully exploit ही नहीं किया. You know जिस तरह मैंने बताया कि हमारे 50% लोगों के पास 4G अभी वह है. 50% still है but you know 5G so we don't want to miss that cycle now. So उसके लिए जो best है public sector के अपने concerns हैं in terms of economic viability कि वह शायद अभी viable नहीं होगा government का भी concern है कि हम 5G करना भी चाहते हैं जो हमसे पहले गलती हुई है we don't want to miss that cycle. So you know the government and and the private sector is in talks these days कि, you know, what is the best way? यह middle way क्या हो सकता है? And middle way, one of the possibilities can be that, you know, कि trial basis पर 5G allow कर दिया जाए private sector को for use cases in metropolitan like big cities like इस्लामबाल, लाहौर and कराची and then see कि उसके बाद क्या उसकी use cases निकलती हैं, उसकी viability क्या निकलती हैं and then eventually it can be rolled out to rest of Pakistan. अब 5G के लिए basics यह है कि you need to have a you know अच्छा fiber का backhaul होना चाहिए. You need to have आपके पास smartphones 5G वाले होने चाहिए तभी उसका you know use हो सकेगा. So I think at this point of time starting point के लिए तीन इस्तेमाल और कराची would be a good option to start with on trial basis and see how they turn out to be and I am very confident कि इसके results अच्छे ही होंगे and people will use it for you know positive and use cases उसके होंगे. You know IoT और जो जिस तरीके से हम हम जा रहे हैं augmented reality and you know उन चीज़ों की site पर वह हमें यहां से हमें कुछ cases मिल जाएंगे and then इस cases को obviously, you know, we can take it to the

second tier and third tier cities and obviously on villages. But again उसका भी है ना कि the the the soap point has been and again this is something that I'm not saying. Ibrahim was here and he he said it कि भाई, the the the licensing fee just doesn't make sense right now. Like, be paying $203,100,000,000 dollars for a license for a product that people aren't buying doesn't make sense and that makes sense what he's saying. But then when the government comes in तो government कहती है कि भैया हम तो एक spectrum दे रहे हैं, हमने तो license देना है तो उसके तो पैसे होंगे. तो I understand their point of view as well. मुझे जो चीज़ समझ आ रही है वह आपने इसने trial basis की बात बोली. वह यही आ रही है कि unoptimized है. You really need to go for a pay as you grow model, rather than the the more age old. Maybe the pay as you grow model might end up paying you more money in the longer run rather than just, taking a payout immediately. Do you think कि एक बहुत serious अब इसके ऊपर discussion या understanding develop होना शुरू हुई है कि ok maybe we can do some sort of a trial

या अभी यह बस एक pipe dream है कि. No no no discussions start हो गई है. अच्छा. There is no doubt about it. Discussion तो हो रही है and the government is keen on giving them कि you know कि इनको trial basis पर भी दे दिया जाए. Economic concerns हैं which is also making sense. It's not कि वह नहीं है. But I think there will be a middle way. इनके you know कुछ निकल आएगा जिसकी वजह से यह यह cycle हम miss ना कर पाएं और you know उनको उतनी you know hefty cost भी ना देनी पड़ जाए इसकी. Makes sense.

In terms of and I know that you guys are are are really focused on sustainable development goals as well. But if I were to ask you, how do you how do you achieve that? Because, ज़ाहिर एक तो मुझे sustainable development के area में नज़र आ रहा है कि, you know, connectivity is is becoming an essential thing anyways for development. And then you're connecting under developed areas. वहां पर आपने बात की smart veggies की, you know, telemedicine, telehealth, all of those things as well. But is there anything else that you guys are doing there as well? You know,

we take STG seven जो है ना clean and clean, energy वाला. We take it very seriously because Pakistan has been hit really bad last year by the floods and we have seen यह climate के impact कितना ज़्यादा हमें hit हुआ है. So हम लोग जितने भी towers deploy करें हमारी कोशिश यह है कि वह एक objective obviously इसका है कि OpEx cost कम हो लेकिन also भी है कि clean and clean वाला जो concept है solarization का वह भी हो. अब you know after having those slots and everything so we have realized कि इसको हमें और aggressively करना चाहिए. पहले हम fiber के जो nodes हैं वह solo based नहीं होते थे. अब हमने उनको भी solo based कर दिया है. So we want कि wherever we can contribute जहां पर more sustainable हो और आज specially Pakistan जो कि इतनी badly hit हुआ हो उसमें जहां जहां हम contribute कर सकें तो इसमें हम सबसे ज़्यादा seven STG का जो goal है इसमें सबसे ज़्यादा contribute करने की कोशिश In terms of solar I I understand दिन के वक्त तो it's it's comparatively easy चल रहा है. रात के वक़्त क्या होता है? Does it shift back to वावड़ा or do you have like sort of a? कुछ जगह तो batteries की depending on for example if it's in interior sin या sun Punjab जहां पर लंबे बड़े दिन होते हैं and you know sun is much more there. So battery की time होता है जो कि चार घंटे होता है तो वह serve कर लेते हैं. उसके बाद वह back to generator या वाप्ता पर आ जाता है. For example कुछ areas हैं जो north side के हैं. वहां पर it takes you know छह घंटे चलता है कई दफ़ा उसके बाद again it goes back to, batteries and then you know from there it goes back to the वाप्ता वाले पर. Right. Yeah.

Interesting. North में अभी जो है वह because north की connectivity still बहुत up and down है. Have you guys focused on fixing that?

उसके क्या क्या मसाले Like, what most people don't know but क्या वजह है North कि में ना दो तीन challenges हैं. एक north में जो सबसे बड़ा challenge है वह unfortunately law and order situation की वजह से जो हमारा ex फाटा के region है वह नहीं deploy हो पाया. हम लोगों ने एक तकरीबन को दो साल से different projects roll out किए हुए हैं. North, विजिस्तान, South विजिस्तान, कुरम, मोहम्मद जैसे area में unfortunately because law and order नहीं कह सके. फिर recently हम लोगों ने सवात, कागान, कालाम, नथिया गली, बुनेर, DI खान उन सब में launch किए हैं. वहां पर deployment अच्छी हो रही है लेकिन वह भी obviously you know terrain ज़्यादा difficult है, hilly area है. फिर वहां पर अब जितना कागान में कुछ है कि छह महीने you can have access. So वो आपके पास window भी बहुत कम होती है तो वो एक challenging वहाँ पे है और अब unfortunately due to uncertainty इन सवातें नहीं तो वो भी slow हुआ हुआ है और इन areas में obviously जब towers deploy होते हैं ना because of the mountainous वो इतनी connectivity plane areas की तरह आती भी नहीं है. तो वह भी challenging है. But we are trying to work it out कि इसको अब हमें इस साल बल्कि last year में हम लोगों ने tourist areas भी add किए थे. Because lot of tourism has grown in Parkinson specially in the North. So we feel कि वहां पर अच्छी connectivity होगी तो और बेहतर हो जाएगा. So we launch सवात में हमने, चित्राल में, कागान में. So we expecting where this summers में इंशालाह we'll have a better connectivity there. Interesting and जो आपने,

early on इसका बात की थी clean and green key, Are you guys looking at carbon credits as well and and and sort of certifying your clean energy initiative? Because I feel like आने वाले वक़्त के अंदर this is a very interesting way to generate revenue as well. Pakistan is one of the lowest in terms of carbon producing, one of the highest in terms of impact. And we've पिछले दिनों I was speaking to someone जिन्होंने बड़े detail में explain किया कि यार इसके पीछे से एक पूरी you're an investment banker you to understand कि पूरी economy ख़री हो चुकी है. And at the very least अगर हम उसके अंदर सिर्फ़ और सिर्फ़ basics है ना कि आप timely समझकर चीज़ों को certify कर दें, structure दे दें, global जो essentially कहा अपने credit marketplace है उसके बाद जाकर plug in कर लें. So that could be a very interesting way to generate, begin to generate revenue as well. Have you guys looked into that as well? We haven't thought about the revenue generation perspective से but what we are trying to do is that कि different international

agencies have contacted and they got to know that कि हम लोग primary source हमारी solar है. So they want to do a bit of assessment कि कितनी हुई है, कितनी carbon emission की you know credits आए या वन सकते हैं. So we are in discussion with them. Hopefully we will have something positive from them and you know from our side also in terms of the report and then we will be able to see you know we be able take it to the board and obviously this is something which we have to look at. Makes sense. दो चीज़ें दो मैंने यह early on, you know, mention किया था and I want your thoughts on this. It's

you guys and it's नादरा. I can't think of any other unfortunately. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe there are a few. But you guys are essentially a public sector organization, right? And others the same. जो कि service delivery के ऊपर काम कर रहे हैं but exclusive उनका mandate है and वह ख़ामोशी से उसको कर रहे हैं और वह they're doing a good job at it. Why do you think if you look back and you've been there for a while, you've you've been there for a majority part of the USF's life. Right? Why do you think you were able to work through it and create an organization, जिसका DNA is very different than what you'd normally get to see in Pakistan? What was the difference? Was it the structure? Was it the sort of somewhat independence that you had? Because there's a certain level of meritocracy both within नादरा as well as USF. So why do you think you you got that opportunity?

You know when I came from the private sector and I was in public sector for initial of my time. So I was like यार I think you know if I get an opportunity to do certain changes and you know bring that culture into. So when I became CEO secondly I was also lucky कि मुझे board को जब मैंने ये चीज़ें present की कि मैंने ये ये चीज़ें भी करना चाहता they were very supportive. So मेरे एक तो हमारा corporate vision है ना मेरा एक grand vision यह था कि USA को एक leading public sector organization बनाया जाए और एक यह जो impression है यह dispel किया जाए कि public sector organization भी robust हो सकती है it can be efficient also और वहां पर जिस तरह आपने merit की बात की है merit prevails और delivery भी वहां पर हो सकती है so और अच्छा talent HR है so they can also be encouraged and you know they are excited also to work for public sector organization so that was my thought process about it so obviously I need to do bit of a changes and जब change करनी होती वो slowly and gradually so I had a lot of resistance also you know for example I tell you that you know initially we had like big offices and you know we have got lot of support staff. So I had many offices खत्म कर दिया with open space कर दिया and you know made everyone very accessible. कि you don't have to मतलब you know आप you just walk into someone's cabin or someone's desk and you know get things done and move on. And we don't have that red tapism कि जी इससे होकर जाइए या फलां करके जाए. Initially resistant people because we are in the comfort zone. And then you know government also supported me that you know they did not मुझे did not impose anything on me in terms of you know कि मैं I was independent in terms of making decisions in the administration of running the organization and also hiring the right people for the right jobs and board was also very supportive in that. So I think that really helped me that also you know pushed me कि you know यह चीज़ें हो सकती हैं. And when I started seeing the results kids happening you get more motivated. You want to do it more. So by शुक्र अल्लाह तालाह का we have been able to achieve some extent but still lot more too. But मेरा जो एक you know एक एक personal I would say वह है वह यह, you know, कि impression ख़त्म होना चाहिए कि public sector भी काम कर सकते हैं या नहीं कर सकते? बिल्कुल कर सकते हैं.

But do you think that was because you were lucky that you got a better organization or do you think other organizations can be fixed as well if you're able to understand what needs to be done and slowly make your way towards it? Obviously, it's not radical changes. ख़ैर economic हालत ऐसे शायद हमारे वाले वाले radical changes भी देखें but, at least incremental. वह एक patient certain level चाहिए आपको जिसकी वजह से जिसके साथ आप हाई से स्थान को बेहतर कर सकते हैं. Do you think that's,

if you look at other organizations, you'd feel the same way? You know, first of all, it has to start from the well. If you have a well to do things, then I'm sure, you know, there'll be challenges. And then, you know, you need to have that capacity to deliver that well.

So if that's there, I'm like I I I'm very positive it can be done. Makes sense. मुझे यह बताइएगा कि early on you know we touched upon the idea कि once the telecom side is covered and the connectivity side is covered तो mandate की बात हुई. मुझे लगता है कि अभी आप लोग highways बिछा रहे हैं, right? So what you're doing is कि you're you're saying कि है access तो पहले मिले. उसके access के ऊपर हो क्या ना आए? वह एक secondary thought है. But you think it's eventuality once the access is there obviously उसमें भी वह speeds बढ़ती जाएंगी तो शायद आप fiber के बाद आप 5G के Upgradation में आ जाएं फिर और positive चीज़ों पर आ जाएं but जब आपने कहा ना इस तरह के telehealth और education and यह सारा का सारा. So I speak to a lot of startups in Pakistan particularly one area of interest is edtech, right? And edtech is doing some very very interesting work now जिसमें with AI and with all of these things अब actually बड़ा easy हो गया है कि आप जो है वह you don't even एक तो वह है ना कि आपने एक brick and मोटा रखा हुआ और उसमें आपने aided by technology education कर रहे हैं. But अब बड़ा simple होना शुरू हो गया कि learning as long as you have a smartphone and an internet connection तो आप learning को बहुत ज़्यादा optimize कर सकते हैं. Honestly आजकल मेरा दो साल का बेटा है वह YouTube से उसने सब सीख लिया है you know like he can name all the planets and this and that and that really makes me feel like कि अच्छा मेरा बेटा जो है अगर वो उसके पास access to YouTube है और मैं उसको guide करके certain चीज़ें दिखा कि she is able to at a very young age identify like उसके सामने आप कोई भी truck रख दें. तो वो आपको बता देते यह dump truck कैसे मैं truck है? Excavator है यह है वह है छोटी छोटी चीज़ें तो why can't the same opportunity be given to let's say my uh-uh you know my house staff or or or other people in the rural areas. And हमने देखा है कि more often than not Pakistan में internet के बाद और वह एक basic human behavior है but वह है कि convergence towards आपको TikTok and all of these things पहले initial early days में मिल रही है. जिसमें आपको again seed करना पड़ेगा, आपको demand create करनी पड़ेगी to better useful content that is going to allow for more, impactful outcomes in the future. Do you think कि इस तरह की programming हो सकती है where, as a secondary step then you begin to encourage, connectivity in specific areas that are more impactful. So for example, some sort of a programming where you can subsidize or support e learning platforms. अभी तो early stages में once some good ones develop जिस तरीके से हमारा telecom sector है. बड़ा developed sector है हमें पता है कह रहे हैं अगर यह कुछ कर रहे हैं तो यह कुछ ना कुछ impact लेकर आ ही रहे तो वह फिर eventually वह जो है ना once just that sector develops तो उनको let's say कि पांच लाख users से पचास लाख users तक जाने वाली जो journey है उसमें आप support कर सकें one way or the other. Do you think that we could potentially see that? Because globally innovation के पीछे हमेशा public sector बहुत ज़्यादा drive करता है. Pakistan में we have this weird thing where we private sector के हम हाथ बांधते हैं और कहते कि यार अब करना भी तुम नहीं है but करना है और नहीं किया तो you know हम तुम्हें डांटेंगे आकर. वह unfortunately वह collaboration नहीं नज़र आती. And USF has been this sort of unique opportunity and and and and this very interesting beacon of hope जहां पर वह public private partnership not just on a level of केसा board में लोगे but actually कि यार आप आप इंफार करके आप दे रहे private sector को. कि you know, you grow as well, we grow as well and however you grow you actually help us back in the longer run. Do you think कि हम उस तरफ भी देख सकते हैं? बिल्कुल देख सकते हैं लेकिन at I think at this point of time

I would say कि little premature because अभी connectivity उस level तक हमने पहुंचा ही नहीं है. You know, of Pakistan में वह पहुंचा है तो of course, you know, देख सकते हैं. देखिए इसके लिए एक ministry of IT की एक और और हमारी sister concern company है Ignite. Right. So they are working on it. So उनका इतने बड़े scale पर नहीं लेकिन eventually उनका mandate यह ज़्यादा आएगा in scaling up this.

अपने तमाम guest से पूछता and I'd like your insight on that as well. Pakistan, you know, we're in 2023 right now. You you worked in Dubai. You've traveled elsewhere as well. But by and large, you know, you spent time in Pakistan and, specially private sector and then public sector doing very impactful work. Knowing what you know now, seeing what you've seen, how do you see Pakistan twenty seven years from now in 2050? अगर ख़ासकर मैं आपसे पूछूं a lot of guests tend to you know go towards the route of कि अगर हमने यह किया तो ऐसा हो जाएगा तो. तो if I was why I if so if I was to ask you a very honest वह कि जो आपके सामने data है उससे मुझे बताएं आपको क्या होता नज़र आ रहा है? What would that look like? You know I am very optimistic. I wouldn't say कि हमने यह करें तो यह कर लेंगे. हमारे पास जो सबसे बड़ी strength है ना और वह data की basis पर मैं कह रहा वह हमारी youth है. हमारी जो average age जो population जो जान गए जाए वह early twenties की है

और आपने twenty fifty की बात की और इस time पर Europe, Japan, China, America की age जो हैं वह 40 late forties, early fifties तक है. So twenty fifty तक they will also be needing some, you know, human resource. So हमारे साथ India है 27, 28 पर. So anyways they will be looking for you know HR from us and we will have the largest you know youth population. So yes कुछ चीज़ें हमें करने की ज़रूरत है अगर हमने ना भी की था I am very confident कि हमारी nation में कुछ ना कुछ talent वैसी है. तो वह talent वहां पर globally जाकर utilize हो जाएगा. So I think हमारा जो सबसे बड़ा asset है वह youth है. So I am optimistic कि twenty fifty में we should be

I am hopeful कि हम at least g 20 का तो part हो. चलिए I hope we I hope we see that हर्षभाई thank you so much for coming in and sharing all that insight. This is very insightful. Thank you so much. For all of you guys thank you so much for watching. आपको यह episode पसंद है अपने दोस्तों यानी ज़रूर share करिए. नीचे comment section में मुझे जाकर बताएं आप. जिन इलाकों से देख रहे आपका 4G, 3G connection कैसा है? क्या आपके पास fiber to the home की opportunity आई है कि नहीं आई? You know outside of the KLI जो लोग exist करते हैं, how is the connectivity there? Particularly if you are from a rural area, who's gotten connectivity recently, what was that experience like? Let us know in the comment section below. YouTube वाले like का बड़े के engagement लगेगी ज़्यादा लूंगा मेरी conversation पहुंचेगी.