The VC who writes the first check in Pakistan

सानवास्तविना रज़ात welcome back to another episode of Thought Denting. आज हमारे साथ मौजूद हैं एक बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान जिनको मैं बड़े अड़से से बुलाना चाह रहा था But basically a large part of this conversation was because I've spoken to a ton of different startups and you know you've you've heard of startups की funding हो गई, you know this VC led this इन्होंने fund किया, उन्होंने fund किया and really I want to understand कि behind the scenes जो actual VCs हैं, जो funding कर रहे हैं, funding आती कहां से है? उसका फलसफ़ा क्या होता है? What's the point? Why do people do it? Can anyone do it? उसके लिए we thought कि, you know, we bring in शैरियार हैदरी. He is the managing partner of DSI Ventures. He was previously general secretary of Pakistan Software Health Association as well. Sir, thank you so much for being part of this show. Thank you so much for having me finally. तो मैं conversation में थोड़ा सा start करूंगा. Just हमारा format होता है उसको understand करते हुए. Early life, where were you born? Education कहां से ली and what was life like for you?

Born in पिंडी. Father was in the army at that time, retired, a bit after that. He was old school, British army, World War II in Burma. -अच्छा. -kind of generation, yeah. Oh wow. So, born in पिंडी, Saint Mary's initially for a few years moved to Islamabad. There was a school called Convent of Jesus and Mary's. Started with that for five years, for Bells for O levels, ISAS for A levels, Karachi for university, IBA. A levels आपने कहाँ किस time भी किया? A levels किया. IAS के हम लोग पहला batch थे early nineties में, '92. Right. उस time पर तो A levels बड़ा ही, बहुत ही rarity थी. हाँ, मतलब कम जगह थी and and actually IASAS उस वक्त launch हुआ था तो we sort of switched from probail. We were the first batch. And the why how do you stumble upon OA levels? Like वो probails करवा रहा था तो इस वजह से? Didn't know much about it but just उन्होंने कहा जी Cambridge कर लें तो Cambridge कर लें. हां बिल्कुल, yeah. Right. They just went with the flow because एक school था six onwards तो सब O levels ही कर रहे थे. Metric wasn't an option at that time क्योंकि somehow उस यह होता था कि रट्टे लगाने पड़ते हैं. हां हां. Number सही नहीं आते और that kind of thing. Right. Then 92 में you graduate A levels? A levels, 93, IBA for four years. They used to have a bachelor's and master's program.

Did that one go. In business administration? Yeah. Marketing.

So four years में bachelor's plus master's हो रहा था. हां, वह b b honors होता था और एक साल का masters होता था. Right. And why did you choose IB? Mean, what was the thought process at the time? हां, so that's kind of interesting. At that time, I wanted to go into advertising and I applied to NCA because I was into arts and I applied to IBF for the marketing part, and I didn't wanna go to business school. I wanted to go to NCA. Like, and believe it or not, at that time, NCA didn't have a degree program. So you would spend four years doing graphic design or whatever in NCA and just get a diploma and not a bachelor's degree. अच्छा, really? I thought NCA is like old and legacy and Yeah yeah, so like hundreds of years old like in the they actually didn't give a degree program till I think the late nineties or whatever. Interesting. So had it got into both, really wanted to go to NCA but you know Deal breaker was the hard Deal Deal breaker was कि चार साल आप यहाँ रहें और आपको bachelor's degree नहीं मिलेगी और फिर उसके बाद आप किसी ad agency में छह हज़ार रुपए की नौकरी पर junior designer के साथ अपना career शुरू करें. Right. So, so yeah. I, I think I thought कि मैं उस वक्त IBA जाके भी वापस I will, I will get back into advertising but by the time I graduated I will, I will sort of move on. I mean IBA sort of evolves you in its own sort of ways. हां, it does but I I didn't get involved in the typical way because I I I kind of stayed away from the rat race that way. Didn't get into corporates at all. So all my friends joined the, you know, the unilevers and the PNGs of the world. But I actually came back to Islamabad. I was interested in micro. That time, development economics was something I was getting interested in. I was also trying to understand my faith a little bit better और Islamic finance मुझे बहुत interesting लग रहा था उस वक्त. तो I actually joined, came back, joined the Islamic university for two years. It was an M.Phil leading to a PhD in Islamic economics. So so I really switched and I wanted to do grassroots level work, Islamic finance, micro lending sort of you know. And

I feel like Islamic finance at that time was really picking up pace. Exactly, हाँ वो दूर develop हो रही थी उस time पे. बिल्कुल हाँ वो दूर के ढोल सोहने होते हैं थोड़े but so so that was a that was a culture shock after IBA,

there lots of faculty issues, didn't complete my degree, left after two years, joined corporate banking. Fesil Bank was the only Islamic bank at that time. Join Fesil Bank, That was the reality check because मेरा जो interview था before I met the country head तो उसमें regional head नहीं है कि, you know, it's just a formality. We're gonna hire you. But just don't tell the country head that, you know, you are a मुल्ला and you are interested in Islamic finance because he is not going to hire you. And I was like shocked कि मैं तो यहां Islamic banking करने आ रहा हूं, right? उनके उस नाम क्या आ गया Islamic bankers लिखा हुआ होता था. तो so yeah, Interesting. I think rude shock for my first job. So so yeah, that was corporate banking. Did that for little over a year. Realized it wasn't my cup of tea. अच्छा, मैं यहां पर थोड़ा सा आपको अगर pause करूं because मुझे एक thought आई थी.

Example to IB and then they would come out corporate, hardcore, very aggressive, very, get the job done. Mhmm. And for some reason इस्तामाबादीs are are like these sort of in a in a in a simple word hippie style कि यार हमने दुनिया बदलनी है value system and and you know हम grass root पर जाकर very idealistic, very impractical.

हां, you can say burger, it's ok.

But burger तो again एक एक एक blanket term है but because as an Islamabad and having a lot of Karachi friends I really thought about it कि यार me and a lot of my friends have been always like it's so much about value and how am I going to change the society? Recently, you go to let's say NSTIO, you go to NICE Karachi and Islamabad का NICE. NICE Karachi के अंदर startups होंगी वह कहेंगी. लाह तालाह दे देंगे but दुनिया में बदलने वाला हूँ. So-so do you think like what's has that been your experience as well with इस नाहाबादी focus?

हाँ so-so obviously it takes all sorts लेकिन I think you are right it's, it's simply being immersed in a cosmopolitan and commercial hub. Yeah. And living that life from the start, right? I, I, I think basic आप, आपका DNA यह होता है कि आप किस शहर में मतलब वह शहर है जहां आयाय चुंडीगढ़ road है, right? Basically lots of agri in that DNA, right? कौन चौधरी है, कौन नहीं है? कराची, commercial,

धंधा, street smart, right? And that impacts the power dynamic of the society and therefore Exactly.

Growing up you realize, k, what's important, what's not important, what's what do you need to survive as well? Exactly and and your neighbor is somebody who's at the stock exchange. Your neighbor is somebody who has a textile mill in the site area. Your neighbor is somebody who goes to a bank in IIT चौंडीगढ़ Road, right? You'll you'll live among these people or whatever, right? Mhmm. धन्धा commercial large cosmopolitan place, totally different DNIs. So so yeah, I think वह mindset तो definitely फ़र्क है. Makes sense. I I I wouldn't say I I think मेरा experience यह नहीं रहा कि, you know, दुनिया बदल देंगे or whatever maybe मतलब I I know I also fall into that category लेकिन I I think they're definitely more laid back, they're definitely less exposed. I I I think just in terms of being sharp, being more street smart, being more commercially savvy, I think definitely it's Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad. Yeah.

अच्छा, so Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad. Interesting. Makes sense. So so, Fassal Bank, you were there for a year, and you left banking?

Yeah. I left banking, and that's when I joined the tech industry without being a techie. So there used to be a company over here called Elixir Technologies. It was a US based Pakistani American company offshore, one of the few product companies with offices in Pakistan. And and so joined that for a few years. That's where I met a lot of my friends and sort of future partners in crime as well. Right.

And what what are the thought behind, Elixir? Like, were you hey, maybe tech is something that might I mean, was that a future like, was that decision based on any projection,

any future? Or was that, like, okay. This I have this job offer. Sounds interesting. Let's go try it out. I think it was just based on trying to understand tech better without being a techie. So, obviously, I was on the strategic marketing side, I was working with their global teams and sort of more on the comms and marketing and biz dev and all of that. But there weren't a lot of product based businesses that were, you know, headquartered in The US and that had that sort of attraction which you find in product based companies. Right? Even at that time, I didn't know much about the IT sector, but I could tell that the others are just, like, sweatshops or just services based companies and you know. BPO and site पर? हां, BPO या otherwise एक जो ठेकेदारी की mentality होती है ना कि बस services बेच रहे हैं random तो तो उसके अंदर I didn't want to do biz dev for services लेकिन I wanted to be in a place that was as close to let's say the American ecosystem or Silicon Valley. तो I think वह एक था obviously I knew people there and I I knew कि वह products कैसे बना रहे हैं. So so it it was more like let's get into this, let's try and explore and then see कि आगे क्या होता है. Tech Pakistan के अंदर उस वक़्त limited थी. लेकिन एक यह definitely था कि this is the future. Mhmm. So इसके अंदर से कोई path बनाना ज़रूरी है अगर Pakistan में रहना है. Makes sense. And do you think that sort of paved the way for, was that instrumental in Yeah yeah yeah, definitely. I I I think those those three, four years was the foundation. I I people are surprised when when they meet me now even, you know, through Pasha or otherwise, even startups. They think I'm I have a tech background. Right? Right. But I've been a non techie in the tech sector for almost two decades now. So that was Alexa was definitely the foundation. And then three years there, when did you leave? Yeah. So three years there, and and that's also kind of interesting. So so I think just just the whole itch to do something creative and the whole NCA and and that whole DNA, which I felt I had sort of compromised on and given up on, but there weren't a lot of options in Pakistan. So, it'll seem dramatic, but we used to we used to play video games after office hours in in office at that time, Quake and and, you know, network gaming. And one day, we were sitting there with friends, and we saw the cinematic for Warcraft. Right. And at that time, those cinematics with those orcs and those, you know, fight scenes in three d. Nobody had ever seen anything like that. And I had no idea how they were made. But, you know, you just see something and something clicks and you're like, I want to do this. हां, मुझे मुझे नहीं पता कि यह character कैसे animate हुआ है, यह घास कैसे move हो रहा है three d में, मैंने आज तक नहीं देखा. And this was I believe Warcraft three, right? They just sort of revolutionized how exactly, cinematics right. तो यह battle scene three d के अंदर आज तक ज़िंदगी में मैंने नहीं देखा और यह घास हिल रही है, यह कैसे हिल रही है, मैंने यह करना है, right? So, I had no idea लेकिन I I just thought कि I need to sort of go back to the kind of creative things that I wanted to do. So, वही nights and weekends लगाकर part time पर दोस्तों के साथ just started thinking कि because I was interested in direction, I was interested in production. I didn't wanna be an animator myself, but I wanted to do sort these sort of creative things. So we just started a small studio just doing post production animation work for, you know, jazz and all of these local agencies or उस तरह का काम शुरू किया. Corporate documentaries, moved on to music videos because some friends were musicians. Abbas Ali Khan then later on was my partner at the studio, जो singer है and and, know, Abbas के initial सारे videos हमने in house घर की मुर्गी दाल बराबर, खुद experiment करके, you know, dog fooding it ourselves. So just, you know, left the job, jumped ship, set up a small production studio,

a bit of animation in there, a bit of post production in there, just started doing local work and got into music videos, got into documentaries. And what was that called? Mystic Media. अच्छा, right. Yeah. And that was based in Islamabad? Based in Islamabad. Why don't you move to Karachi at the time? Because I feel like that industry was like prime in Karachi.

हां, बिल्कुल. I I I think हम लोगों का, कुछ एक तो families की वजह से भी we were a bit conservative about moving. We wanted to explore things here. उस वक्त telco boom आया हुआ था. Ajaz was growing. Other few other companies were growing. तो opportunity यहाँ पर होता opportunity यार, corporate opportunity. हाँ and and our work was interesting. So even उससे पहले we got notice for the animation work. Some directors used to come from Karachi just for the animation work here and and, you know, we were doing really interesting stuff. I I think वह लग नहीं रहा था कि हमने karate जाकर एक बहुत बड़ा studio बनाना है, right? Mhmm mhmm. And what year was this? This was, 2001.

ठीक है. Yeah. Then Thereabouts. कितने से आपने वहां पर

वह किया था? Yeah, that was about two three years वह किया and then because we were one of the few studios that were doing animated work, so we got noticed because of that and this tech company based in Islamabad called Traverse Software which later got acquired by Bentley. Your brother, Mossin, used to work there and that's where I met him and he was sort of employee number one with me at Tryango. So long story short, there was a software house that was doing services work for America and they were really into computer graphics and they wanted to get into gaming and game engines and game development and all of that. अच्छा, this is very interesting because अगर मैं थोड़ा सा वह करूं कि Bentley, this is the same Bentley group that makes the cars an industrial group. No, no. It's that that's a different Bentley जो automotive This Bentley does software for civil engineering and design and AutoCAD की दुनिया के यह design software बनाते हैं. They are one of the bigger

companies in that. And like B2B sort of react? Yeah yeah, B2B. And इनका जो primarily जो

समझने का product वन रहा था, वह Pakistan से वन रहा था? हां, तो so obviously America based global offices, huge multi billion dollar company but they had like hundreds of people in Pakistan doing that work. Right. So, Bentley की जो यहां वैसा श्रफ़ जो general network office यहां बनाया था as an offshore sort of Bentley office and then Mosin, they wanted to sort of branch off and start a subsidiary that was focusing just on CGI for games. Right. So they actually wanted to build an engine, build a game, create a game, and get into content development for games. Right. The the issue was that they knew the programming and the dev side. They didn't know the content side, and they didn't know the marketing side. So when they got in touch with me, not only did we sort of cover the animation and content side, but, obviously, because of my marketing background and my personal experience, they could see that, you know, I could head the studio and cover that side as well. So so it was a sort of a natural fit that way. And that's where Triangle Interactive, which was a game development plus CGI studio, was born as a subsidiary of Trevor, and and we launched that. And then And what did you guys work on?

हां, so that's an interesting story. Especially considering the time अभी एक movie release होने वाली है and I know that you guys were very focused on that at the time. बिल्कुल.

मोलाजात is very close to our hearts. तो I I think the interesting thing is कि and and the thing that I'm really proud of is कि हम लोगों ने उस वक़्त services को बिल्कुल ignore करके we went for a high risk, high return sort of model, right? Which was कि हम अपना engine बना रहे थे, हम अपना engine game engine scratch से बनाएंगे, हम अपनी game scratch से बनाएंगे and then we will actually have our own IP and build a title. So, our first IP that we planned was based out of Pakistan and it was called शेरा Jet क्योंकि मौला जट की उस वक्त IP और वह copyrights Right, और वह issues sure. तो it was basically a tongue in cheek look, a satirical look at the पंजाबी film culture and it was a third person hack and slash shooter where a मौला जट type character would be the main player that you have and there's a storyline where you go through the village and you go through the police का थाना and you have the चौधरी and the villains and all of that, right? So even right now I find बहुत बार मुझे लोग मिलते हैं जो कि अभी भी उस game का पूछते हैं क्योंकि उसका trailer अभी भी YouTube पर पड़ा हुआ है शेहरा झट का and they're like कि यार वह आपने game release नहीं की. और जिस time पर वह trailer आया था it looked, it looked quite sweet. You know, I mean it was a lot of work went went in there. पता लग रहा था कि बड़ा

I don't know कि उसका जो actual in game graphics कैसे थे,

but the trailer looked beautiful. हां, so the trailer was 100% in game. अच्छा. वह cinematic कोई भी नहीं था, right? Like 99% उसका in game था and and that was built on our engine. Within two years, actually, we because of our engine and other tools we were making, we we got noticed और red herring एक publication होती थी. तो उसमें Asia top 100 companies के अंदर as the, you know, one of the top 100 fastest companies to watch out for. Tango Interactive came in that. Our engine feature to feature was actually matchable with something like Unreal at that time. Unreal के early days थे, हां days थे. लेकिन उस वक्त का Unreal actually we were matching the Unreal engine at that time, right? So Right. The dev team was, super solid. उसके ऊपर हमने यह game बनाना शुरू की as an IP. But unfortunately वही होता है ना कि timing is everything, right? So we were so ambitious that we were, you know, we were ahead of the time and we were ahead of the market. And there was no subscription service in Pakistan. There was no way to actually monetize your game other than having in game advertising and sponsorships and all of that. So we went through that entire cycle. We actually did the homework, talked to corporates, had a couple of, Backers as well. Backers on board. एक telco ने actually ok कर दिया. अगले हफ्ते contract sign होना था और उनका जो brand manager था वह उस हफ्ते जो है वह change गया. यहां brand manager अंदर आया like political government पिछली सारी campaign scratch की, said no to us, backed out at the eleventh hour and and that was that, right? So 90% game बनी हुई थी, but we just couldn't release it. Right? Right. So that was obviously a massive shock for us and that's when we shifted to services to stay alive. Right. We could have done another game and then just, you know, high risk, high return just shut down if it didn't work, or we could have survived, and and that's what we did for for nine years. Right? So So nine years 2013

तक. अच्छा. अच्छा. I didn't know Trango was was arrived till that Yeah. For that long. Yeah. What I also know is Trango, lot of people might not, but Tango actually built the DNA for a lot of future game developers and animators. And I know Bilal Gai was there as well. You know, he moved out and then eventually Karachi में जाकर जो commander safeguard and all of that stuff that he was doing. बिल्कुल. Post amazers and then ice animation and then now back at Quigzil. Quigzil. And then I know, I believe, वकार भाई was also there at some point. Yeah yeah. Right? And so a lot of these super super success stories actually वह somehow घूम घूमाकर जो है वह triangle से ही जुड़ी हैं. हाँ. So,

the the obviously not as large as the गरीम mafia but video game और animation sector can that's the thing that I am most proud of कि we we did something crazy when people thought we were nuts and we we will not be able to pull it off उस वक़्त 2,004 में when there was nothing in a place like इस्लामबाद and you know fifty sixty plus people की team उस वक़्त doing international projects for Fortune 500 companies. Even उसके बाद शेहराजाट के बाद जब हमने services भी की, worked with the top studios, worked with LucasArts, worked on Tomb Raider for content, जो video game थी, worked with the top automotive companies like Audi, Toyota, all of these fiscal इस तरह के नाम, Nike के लिए campaigns करना, FedEx के लिए campaigns करना, Discovery Channel के लिए content करना, like, you know, we really hit it out of the park that way. And then as you said कि वह जो हमारा, you know, the the team triangle chart जो है उसमें Quigzil the biggest sort of success story out out of Pakistan to be acquired by Epic Games. And so as you said, वक़ार is a Tango alumni. Third World Studios जो है उसेहर की the first studio in the world to actually make a feature film using the Unreal Engine real time rendering में. Third World Studios सारे Tango के alumni बाकी पांच छह और studios पूरे Pakistan में, right? Very very proud of that. Yeah, and I think वही वाली बात है कि probably what I would

because मेरे experience में ना you can you can talent मिल जाता है आपको, वन जाता है, सारा कुछ हो जाता है. But there is a culture plays a huge role in in really building leaders. There's a difference between people who are who can who can work and who can work for the rest of their lives. And there's a huge difference between creating really the leaders who can do, you know, again things like creating Quixel जो कि Epic Games acquire करेगा. So what was the culture like in the early days? Tryango का, I mean you guys were on a mission. And so doing that in Pakistan a a requires a lot of guts and and b I think it's software IT tech वह फिर भी चल रहा था. The sort of work that you guys were doing and I remember if I remember this correctly there were some very expensive trainings from Disney and you know मैं उससे बड़ा छोटा सा था but चीज़ें सुनती हुई वह हो रहा होता था कि that were a lot of that that you invested in the talent. Really made sure कि यार ठीक है. If you if you wanna do something, we wanna do something great. Like, ये नहीं है कि बस ठीक है यार बस एक game ही बनानी है ना, चलो देख देख ही जाएगी, कुछ बना लेते हैं. सस्ता resource hire करो, सस्ते तरीके से इनको train करो. You got for, you you went for the best resource, you trained them in the best possible ways. Obviously luck wasn't on your side and circumstances and and timing, you mentioned, is everything. But, but what was the culture like early days?

I think culture is, that's a really interesting question, right? Because we were actually, we we didn't have any benchmark in Pakistan कि हम कहें कि यह बड़ा studio है और ऐसा culture studios में होता है which is different than IT companies और software companies और हम वैसा culture बनाएंगे, right? So we were literally building everything from scratch. But the culture वह मतलब I think अभी भी हम लोग जब बात करते हैं और जिन लोगों ने आगे और जाकर companies बनाई वह भी sort of पुराने time is always nostalgic लेकिन आप हमेशा वह time, discuss करके सोचते हैं कि it was something special और एक ऐसा culture था जिसके अंदर ऐसे लोगों ने काम किया जो जितनों ने भी काम किया, majority ने अपना best काम किया and then they went on to actually create their own studios to work in some of the best companies in the world. You know, the alumni went on to work at Apple, at EA, at, you know, at Epic and and to make a company that's acquired by Epic and and, you know, the list goes on. Right? Right. So I think वह culture सिर्फ यह था कि we really aimed high and that was the driving force. It was कि Pakistan का agenda घारना है, international, you know, we need to put Pakistan on the map और घटिया काम नहीं करना. हां. तो, you know, America में होगा अच्छा काम, seeing नहीं निकले हुए उनके सर में and you know we learn everything from scratch and just you know self taught. And I think that I I think जो culture से ज़्यादा जो driving force होती ना वह यह होती है कि just कि घटिया काम नहीं करना and you know you're as good as anybody else in the world. Yeah. And you need to put your work out there ताकि आप proudly कह सकें कि you've worked with the best studios in America or you've worked with the best brands in the world or whatever. And we kind of achieved that, right? So so,

I I think that was important. Yeah, I think but I think interesting point आपने raise किया primarily because I feel like बड़ा important है आज के नौ जवानों के लिए because there's a huge growing movement of working for crumps, right? Like the way that I see it, we're really encouraging a lot of our youth to really aim for the crumps कि वह यार वह देखो गोराज है ना वह तो high value काम करेगा. तू ऐसा कर जाकर ना वह पांच दौरों वाला graphic designing ले ले. ठीक है fiber का. And there's nothing wrong with that for starter. But but at some point you know you really have to tell them कि listen like if you don't believe in yourself nobody's gonna believe in you, right and the fact is कि I remember early those days इससे भी मैं थोड़ा पहले जाऊंगा मुझे याद है दो हज़ार मैं नौ साल का था 99 में और we used to go to Marriott IT conferences होती थी, hardware conferences होती थी. हमें लगता था कि यार यह it was a magical moment कि पता नहीं दुनिया इतनी आगे और हम connected थे उस दुनिया के साथ. And then मैं अब आज की youth को देखता हूं and they're just like कि Pakistan it just seems like we're so disconnected, we can't do anything. Really if you अगर बाहर जाना भी है तो बाहर जाकर master शास्त्र करके you know upgrade yourself. And I was talking to someone even yesterday and you know he graduated from UCP and he was like कि उन्होंने पहली job जब अपनी 2,006 में acquire की थी वह एक remote job in a Canadian company की थी. Forums पर जाकर सीख सीख सीख सीख और cold call email भेजकर, right? And it's just with the internet, it's such a beautiful thing that you can, capability में आप question नहीं कर सकते. Maybe आप यह कह सकते कि यार I'm not polished yet. And so internet allows you to polish yourself. Right. But वह vision तो होना चाहिए, वह believe तो होना चाहिए कि we can actually do world class work and we can compete and like you mentioned, चाहे वह epic हो. I believe, मोसेन भाई from VR play was also ex Trevor or Tryngo? बिल्कुल Tryngo. Tryngo. Yeah. And and, you know, the sort of work that they are doing, the sort of work that Quitzer is doing, Byzhen himself, you know EA, Apple, it's quite clear कि वहां का बंदा जो है वह जाकर दुनिया में mark बनाया है उसने. Exactly. So I think वह चीज़ vision बड़ा important है जो कि I think अगर वो belief हो तो you can do remarkable things. हाँ बिल्कुल I think हज़ारों missile हैं जो कि सबको पता है nobody is denying that right? Even

connectivity wise despite the internet, despite speeds and all of that Pakistan के issues हैं of actually accessing those markets. There is there is no denying that. लेकिन I think if you aim for mediocrity तो बस फिर आप उससे भी दो step नीचे ही जाकर land करते हैं, right? Right. और, और हम थोड़े से डरते भी हैं ambitious चीज़ें करने में. मतलब you know as you said कि वह कुछ दिमाग में एक, एक mental block है कि गोरा काम कोई और करता है और हम नहीं कर सकते. Right. या कोशिश भी नहीं करनी. तो क्रम्ज़ ना भी हों लेकिन, you know, somewhere in the middle जाकर land करें आप. हां. Right? खा भी नहीं सोच सकते कि यार I can, you can, they don't really dream big. Exactly

may be growing up you know the parents said कि listen don't do this or that but वो रखा but somehow वो बच्चे को एक PTSD होता है कि मैं खाब सोचना ही नहीं है मैं बस जो मुझे दिया गया है चुप करके यार accept करो accept करो. हाँ सुबह I I I think that's a broader discussion लेकिन you are right risk averseness definitely है and and

you know I think we will be discussing that later today in in the tech industry as well जो हमारा DNA है. लेकिन I think risk awareness के अलावा as you said कि हम एक permission based society है. हमारा जो culture जो है ना वह एक permission driven culture है कि आपने इजाज़त लेनी होती है हर चीज़ की. या अपने मां बाप से या बड़ों से या कूमत से या police वाले से या bureaucrat से या किसी से भी. बस एक एक culture है कि हर चीज़ की आपको permission लेनी है, right? So I I think उससे आपके दिमाग पर एक बहुत block आ जाता है which just permeates into our DNA. I I I think the sooner you become aware of that.

Interesting insect, yeah.

And and and obviously I'm I'm from a slightly older generation. लेकिन आप लोगों की कम है, अगलों की और भी कम है. लेकिन it's true. Like, यह आपकी from the time कि मैं अगर कुछ as as a young person

बड़े हुए सोचा business setup करना है यार. किधर register कराएंगे? किधर tax होगा? Miss कराओ. It's it's a deterrent and it's all permission like it's you over my mind.

In an entirely different light like I would call it ease of doing business. Would call it a lot of other things but it's the permission thing is just fascinating. आपको इजाज़त मिलनी चाहिए. आप इजाज़त का इंतज़ार करते हैं. हाँ. इसीलिए खैर अब तो social media की वजह से वह बहुत ही weird और toxic हो चुका है लेकिन even उससे पहले generally जो हमारी drawing room discussion होती है या the man on the street होती है, हकूमत ने यह नहीं किया, हकूमत ने वह नहीं किया. अब तो वह बिल्कुल यह crazy level पर चला गया. हाँ. But we are sitting there on our butt waiting for the government to do something for us. Magically, passive एक है ना? Self help basis पर बड़ी कम चीज़ें होती हैं क्योंकि they are responsible. उन्होंने हमें इजाज़त देनी है, उन्होंने हमें deliver करना है, हम खुद कुछ नहीं कर सकते. So, so you are chained to that. Right. और again, again longer discussion लेकिन जैसे Pakistan के अंदर हम सबको पता है कि हमारा literacy level क्या है और अंग्रेज़ी कितने लोग पढ़ सकते हैं लेकिन सारे जो boards होते हैं वह अंग्रेज़ी में लिखे होते हैं because एक authority होती है. वह भी permission based society है ना कि यह एक sir की side पर board है जो कि कोई driver नहीं पढ़ सकता लेकिन उसमें कुछ लिखा हुआ है. हाँ. कि please wear your helmet avoid accident. मुझे अभी मुझे यह बात very fascinating लगी courts और court orders are in English. Right. Like your justice system is in a language that nobody understands.

Your bureaucratic exam is in a language that nobody really understands. And so it it it makes no sense. Yeah. Okay. Your DNA of a country

is alien to majority of its inhabitants. Authority equals English? Yeah. तो यह कोई official board लगा हुआ है. Fascinating. Yeah.

Coming back to triangle. So 13, so so, हम लोग 2,013 तक, nine years. 13 तक, nine years. And then, you know, you guys wrapped up. Yeah, just

a quick note on that. I think वो लोग यह पूछते हैं कि आप services continue क्यों नहीं किए आपने? And again coming to your point of quality. I think the downfall for us started when unfortunately two thousand eight का financial crisis हुआ and two of our major clients went bankrupt in Europe and America. Right. And they owed us hundreds of thousands of dollars in the middle of a project. अच्छा. So that was like a So it wasn't even lost business. It was actually like Yeah. It was ongoing projects where they were supposed to pay us and they shut down literally overnight because of their client shutting down. Right. So that was when we got that first hit. We'd started downsizing. Team छोटी करके survive करना शुरू किया. पहली बार ज़िंदगी में local काम करना शुरू Telcos बाकी local companies के साथ hated it, you know, didn't get enough money, didn't get to do good work और I I think वह जो आप बात कर रहे थे ना quality की. तो जब when you worked with the best agencies in the world, when you worked worked on, you know, the Nikes and the Toyota's and the Lexus, sort of brands of the world, तो उसके बाद फिर आपको मज़ा नहीं आता for settling for something less. Yeah. So, you know, the choice was कि you can go on and rebuild as a services company and keep on doing it लेकिन उस वक़्त भी China was on the upswing और generally it was a downward spiral because हर बंदा rates पर compete कर रहा था. So Philippines, India, Brazil, China, you know, it was basically वही ठेकेदारी model common हो रहा था कि आप जितने का भी करेंगे China उससे सस्ता काम करेगा, right? Right. So जब आपने अच्छा काम देखा होता है और triple a titles पर काम किया होता है उसके बाद then you don't want to settle for a b minus sort of a project, right? वह आप एक हद तक ही कर सकते हैं. So we dragged that on for a couple of years just to survive, but then it was time to pull the plug. So 2013 was that time where, you know, we decided कि, I moved on to convo Konvo में because I was part of the funding team initially and and then I was heading operations for Konvo in Pakistan. So 2013 I made the switch, a lot of people moved on and then started their own sort of small studios on the side or did their job. So वह Trango, Saridis banned हो गई. Right. And so convo you joined 14, 13? 13. Thirteen. For for thirteen for another three four years at convo. ठीक है. What was that experience like? That was good because I was, वह literally फैज़ान जो founder थे, he started that and from typical garage startup in a single room मेरे घर के ऊपर एक कमरे से literally तीन दोस्तों ने, you know, शुरू किया है. Initially when I was busy with रंगो I was just doing nights and weekends at at Conroe for some time and then full time. Obviously I was heading Pakistan, more than doubled the team here, raised about $15,000,000 from the valley. By that time headquarter हमने San Francisco move कर लिया था. Majority team जो है वह Pakistan में थी. Bizdev और product की कोई team San Francisco में थी. So yeah, that that growth spurt and fundraising in The U. S. हमारा जो उस वक़्त Adobe had invested in Us. Know, at that time it was unheard of कि Adobe किसी पाकिस्तानी based company में invest करेगा. उसके बाद then Morgenthell Ventures जो हमारा main VC था for for our $5,000,000 round, they were like one of the oldest VCs of Silicon Valley, Sand Hill Road जो famous the mecca of old school VCs. They had actually invested in Apple like decades ago. They had invested in Siri and handled the Siri acquisition by Apple. The old school VC का जो DNA होता है. So they invested in us at that time, raised money from there and then sort of grew the team. Interesting. Yeah.

And I didn't know कि मैंने कभी सोचा ही नहीं कि technically यह सारा VC and funding Pakistan में उस time पर भी हो रही थी just not as well advertised as So it's happening

technically I wouldn't say कि Pakistan में हो रही थी because you know वह तो शुरू से ही we we legally we were structured as a US company we were headquartered in San Francisco with this as an offshore office, right? Technically

it was the San Francisco. There is more more of a more like keep trucking model, motive model.

Yeah, most of the, most of the models at that time were that के लोग वहाँ से raise कर रहे थे. जैसे even for example उस वक्त रोज़ी और when Monas moved back to Pakistan ages ago तो वो सारी deals America based होती थी with the assumption के main ops जो है वह Pakistan में होंगे. Right. और और targeted to American customers at the time as well. Yeah, yeah. So we were one of the first SaaS products to come out of Pakistan because बना तो यहीं से था ना, right? So initially and SaaS obviously is is a, you know, global product and मतलब Convo as a product is an online collaboration platform. It it's the precursor to Slack. So very close to Slack. We used to compete with Slack. So, you know, just Slack global product है, तो कोई भी SaaS product global product होती Right. And you were there for three years?

A little over three years. When did you leave that?

Yes. So I left that around '17. ठीक है. और फिर उसके straight after that I was in transition. I was looking at options and then I joined पार्षा for a little over two years. Secretary at Islamabad में establish कर्नाता, took over from जहारा, headed that as the secretary general, out of इस्लामबाद थोड़ी लेल over two years.

ठीक है. What's interesting is that when I see your career, it's, it's very diverse. Right? So, I mean, sure, it's a tech DNA that was developed in Alexa state there. But One Motors Zoom for example कि अगर मैं services में हूं तो मैं exclusively services में रहूंगा. Mhmm. मैं अगर arts and media की side के ऊपर हूं, digital की side पर तो मैं उसमें ही opportunities ढूंढूंगा. But you went from, I believe, Alexa was doing service or product at the time? Alexa was doing product, yeah. अच्छा, what were they doing? Print print print design and publishing. For, like, products? हां, अच्छा. Yeah. And so from that, you went to, you know, game development, your production studio. Game development. Yeah. And then eventually, you know, very different form of sort of collaborative tool product Right? SaaS, yeah. And then eventually you decided, ठीक है, I'll take up this opportunity for, heading essentially the association for software houses in Pakistan. Why that switch? Because that's something जो कि बंदा more often than not तब करता है. I mean, there's there's a midlife crisis there and then you're like, know, what's the purpose of my life? And you discover that and then you sort of begin to think on a more macro level of of grass root level change. Yeah. Was that more of a, okay, this seems like a good opportunity. Let's do that. Because I feel like a by and large, आपका बाकी experience था, वह still, you know, I'm building something. I'm doing this and that. But the the the पाशा shift is is a very different shift. For a lot of other people, सय्यद अहमद for example, was when he was chairman पाशा he had the company but also had this, you know, entire position going on. You were exclusively working on पाशा and giving it your full time. So what was the thought behind that?

हां, बिल्कुल. तो तो I think पहले your right services and product और वह सारा वह था and पाशा was, पाशा even surprised me. But I think वही I I I think timing right place at the right time वाली चीज़ होती है and post convo I was looking at starting my own new gig and I was talking to a few friends and we were actually setting up something and then the पाशा opportunity came. तो I I I think पाशा में जब मैंने join किया तो मैं उससे दो साल पहले भी ना कटता और उसके दो साल बाद भी ना right? वह वह एक timing होती है जहां you're at a place where, something makes sense, right? Yeah, right. तो I I I think आशा का मसला यह है कि as a trade association जब आप industry में होते हैं और आप अपना startup चला रहे होते हैं तो you're you're kind of taking that for granted and you don't realize कि उनका impact आपकी ज़िंदगी पर क्या है. And आप crib कर रहे होते हैं कि हकूमत यह नहीं कर रही, वह नहीं कर रही, tax हो गया, यह हो गया. But you're basically busy running your own startup, right? And for example, सैयद or anybody else अभी जैसे CC का election कल परसों हुआ है और और यह लोग जितने भी central executive committee में आते हैं या अगर कोई भी chairman आता है, people don't realize that these are part time volunteer positions. Right. They don't get paid for it. They actually spend tons of time just for the industry association while running their own startups. Right. तो मसला यही होता था कि जब हम मिलते थे we, I was busy with convo, everybody else was running their own startups और यह होता था कि हाँ, पाशा में यह होना चाहिए, वह होना चाहिए, हकूमत को engage करना चाहिए, IT का you know potential है, blah blah blah, typical जो cribbing होती है कि you know the government doesn't understand. So I think everybody wants to do macro level work जहा आप macro level पर ऐसा काम करें जिसका impact nationwide हो, जिसका impact across the industry हो. But you're so busy with your day job and running your show that you just don't get the opportunity, right? You can't just leave your company and do it. तो the secretary general position is a paid position, is equivalent to being the CEO of the association. It's a paid full time, position to actually head the association and that's when I thought कि इसको करने का तरीका यही है कि public policy को अगर आपने impact करना है, अगर घूमत के साथ आपने interface करना है, you need to jump in. It can't be a part time sort of volunteer thing on the side. So so that was the rationale and interestingly the timing for me was kind of a a massive learning experience because जब मैंने join किया, उस वक्त PMLN की government थी and अनुषा रेमान was the minister. And then by the time I left, PTI was in power and, you know, I saw both Sites. Both sides and federal level पर मैंने दोनों governments का change switch देखा and then also because we work at the provincial level as well तो KP में पहले से PTI, Punjab में similarly we saw the switch. Sindh में obviously working over there. Sindh was lagging behind in terms of IT. Obviously Punjab और KP were were the Progressive one year. Progressive. But I I I think that was like super interesting कि आपकी जो assumptions होती हैं, दूर बैठ के कि यह हकूमत एक तरह की होगी या यह इंसान एक तरीके का होगा. जो आपको news में मिल रही होती basically. जो आपको news में मिल रही होती हैं या grapevine में या hair sail पर मिल रही होती हैं and then when you start working with those people and and you're like embarrassed yourself at having those preconceived notions because they were completely wrong, right? तो तो I think that way it was a great learning experience. Public policy को impact करना, digital policy के अंदर, you know, from the पाशा platform your recommendations go straight into policy making. Mhmm. Right? So you have a seat at the table और वह जो होता है ना सुनते नहीं हैं. So they're listening to you. You are there at the table and you are the representative of the entire tech industry. Obviously दस में से पांच चीज़ें वह नहीं मानते और पांच होती हैं. लेकिन वह पांच भी करवाना is a massive feeling of achievement because it's hard work, it's like mind numbing, tankless work, sitting in four hour सरकारी meetings and actually trying to drill sense into 20 different stakeholders,

right? If I were to ask you when you joined originally, what what month and year was this?

So so it was the start of the year 2018. मैं join किया. So I was there 18 के end में join किया. So I was there 19 and

दो साल. अच्छा 18 के end में. So the dollar free fall had already started? नहीं, इतनी इतनी बुरी नहीं थी. वह वह I I think 20 onward ज़्यादा हुई. Because one of the things that I'd like to but मैं free fall की जब बात करूं तो मैं कह रहा हूं, particularly in the context of the 100 rupee dollar Mhmm. Kept for so long कि a lot of people sort of say कि export industries, particularly IT industry को एक बड़ा major impact पड़ा. वह पिछले दिनों में एक बड़ा interesting tweet पड़ा था. Someone said कि, you know, the impact of a of a liberal, independent state bank where systems को उन्होंने as a as a reference रखा और उन्होंने कहा कि जी just three years post dollar liberalization of free market dollar, 4,000 new employees, growth x x x and so on. So what's what's your thought on अगर मैं as a starter आपसे पूछूं कि do you think the the dollar has direct or rather the market value of a dollar has direct implication on your exports but more exclusively based on your experience on the IT sector?

हां, नहीं definitely. Think मसला यह है कि dollar तो obviously economy का हमारा backbone question जो है वह forex का है, right? So मतलब अगर आप IT में देखें तो just like any other exports आप ज़्यादा competitive हो जाते हैं immediately, right? At the same time उसकी flip side जो अब बहुत ज़्यादा बुरी obviously पिछले साल, डेढ़ में आ रही है. वह यह है कि global pressure जो आपकी prices पर locally आता है, inflation का जो pressure आता है, right, वह it's a double edged sword. Right. So, fine let's say कि dollar double हो गया. मतलब 200 ले लेते हैं. Obviously two two hundred से उस वक्त कोई भी सोच भी नहीं रहा था कि 200 होगा. Right. So let's say कि any company making a million dollars export revenue multiplied by 100 versus multiplied by 200 literally उनका revenue double हो गया, right? But at the same time living expenses, cost of doing business, just just basic salaries, आपके employees के लिए options, उनको directly remote काम मिलना and all of that. So anybody who was earning let's say $1,000, now they also want to be paid $2,000 or they want to be paid $3,000, right? Or at least $1,500. तो आपका वह it's a double edged sword. Your revenue goes up in terms of in terms of rupee लेकिन at the same time आपकी यहाँ opex भी बढ़ी होती है, वहाँ भी pressure आ रहा होता है. तो उसको manage कर रहे हैं लोग किसी तरह. It's it's a tough market last few years लेकिन obviously like globally अगर आप देखें तो हमारी जो spike भी आई है exports में a major part of that was the forex and and the you know the dollar free fall जिसकी वजह से आप competitive Competitive हो हो So अगर मैं इसी से एक चीज़ निकालूं because I if

I understand this correctly actually twenty ten to twenty fifteen my understanding of why there was a huge impact on the IT industry also macro के ऊपर. Terrorism भी थी आपके सर पर. ज़ाहिर है that directly impacts कि कोई भी बाहर का बंदा काम करवा रहे हैं. They don't wanna work in a country जो कि news में है और वहां से उस समय मिल्ला दिन पकड़ा जा रहा है. Yeah. Load shedding, one of the worst forms of load shedding. Twenty ten में you know floods Pakistan में आए हुए थे, economic situation बड़ी ख़राब थी. वह तमाम चीज़ें थीं. And then उसमें एक element यह था कि you know dollar आपने control किया हुआ है तो essentially imports आप subsidize कर रहे हैं और आप अपनी exports को, you know, you're you're taxing them in a way. Right. Right? But then twenty eighteen में जाकर या twenty eighteen में तो ख़ैर यह है कि ठीक है आपने थोड़ी regime change की और आपने dollar को वह कर दिया eventually आपने IMF वाली जो bill pass हुआ था जिसमें state bank को totally independent हो गया. जिसमें वह total free fall पर जाना शुरू हो उसके बाद. Right. उसके बाद आपने चलो theoretically आपने यह तो कह दिया कि यार now your economy will always fix itself if you are importing more than you are exporting and so you have to con वह consistently आपको pinch करता रहेगा. Now you radically have to sit down think कि भाई नहीं import जो कि अब हमें होता नज़र आ रहा सच्ची बात है कि अब जो इस वक़्त इतना push पड़ रहा है कि लोग actually कह रहे हैं कि अच्छा बताओ dollar किस तरह कमाना है because रुपए पर काम नहीं चल रहा है. Right. And so in a macro sense इतना से incentivization की तरफ push हो ही रहा है. But somehow ठीक है हमें 15%, 20%, 30% growth नज़र आना शुरू हुई year on year लेकिन वह massive impact नहीं पड़ा. So my then my second question would come in. In your experience at the time and I remember twenty eighteen के बाद से हमें वह एक growth pattern नज़र आना शुरू हो गया था on some level. In your experience, how would you how would you define talent or rather the supply of talent as a problem in the IT services, IT product or services industry. Because while we can talk about the the favorable market, the the the variables like youth population that's available and, you know, free dollar and let's assume unlimited energy and so on, The factor is if you don't have enough workers doing the job, you know, it's not gonna happen. वही वाली बात है कि वहां पर उसमें जो एक element clear cut हमें नज़र आया था, वही नज़र आ रहा था कि workers switching जो hopping हो रही थी, वह हुई इस वजह से रही थी because everybody had the demand and they had the project. They just didn't have anyone जो कि उसको कर सकता था and so वह तोड़ रहे थे. Nobody was busy making talent. Mhmm. Everybody was busy कि यार मैं उसको double करके ले आऊं. So people would start working somewhere, would learn something three to six, smart people would learn something in three to six months. Mhmm. And then they would go into a cycle of rotation, right? Like दस साल पहले ही होता था पहली नौकरी में तीन साल गुज़ारो. Right. वह तो element ही ख़त्म होता है. Mhmm. चार महीने काम किया, इधर से आपको जो रुपए के ऊपर लोगों को hire कर रहे हो, the offshore model is not working out considering कि cost of doing business and so on and everything. Good point. So how do you rank the demand, the supply side of of talent in this industry? I think supply side का massive issue है just like any industry but specially

अंदर and and not just for the current, not just for the current sort of cycles या जो हमारी production volume है but especially अगर आपने project करना है अगले पांच साल, अगले दस साल, right? जब भी आप even people within the industry जब हम बात करते हैं कि, you know, tech की growth का potential and all of that and becoming the textile sector of Pakistan in terms of being the top exporter, right? So अभी for example IT का अगर आप देखें तो roughly 25,000 graduates roughly हमारे पास हर साल निकलते हैं. जिसके अंदर से internally हमें पता है कि उसके अंदर से तकरीबन पांच हज़ार ऐसे होंगे जो कि international काम करने के काबिल हैं. वह भी train होंगे. वह भी पहले जाएंगे और जाकर company में train होंगे. बाकियों को तो train भी करना पड़ा मुश्किल है. बिल्कुल. अगर अगर मतलब मुश्किल नहीं है लेकिन उसके अभी structured तरीके नहीं हैं. Right. As you said मारामारी है, poaching is easier, long term training पर कोई invest नहीं कर रहा. Some people are trying to break that cycle now लेकिन so मतलब I think मैं अगर आपको frankly बताऊं तो पच्चीस हज़ार में से पांच हज़ार अगर आपके पास लोग हैं और अब specially post covid, post pandemic generally remote work, offshore work का वह जो एक झाका था वह खुल गया है सबका, right? तो इस वक्त it's a blood bath right now, right? I I mean this is the worst time to hire a team right now in Pakistan because not only are people पहले यह होता था कि people used to आप मतलब पच्चीस हज़ार रुपए की raise के पीछे लोग नौकरी change कर देते थे, right? तो वह as you said लाख रुपए, एक लाख पच्चीस, एक पचास, दो लाख इस तरह की jumps होती थी. पिछले तीन साल के अंदर dollar की वजह से और specially funded startups की वजह से और इस सारी market overheat होने की वजह से it's literally लाख रुपए पर काम कर रहे हो, Monday को join करो. हम तुम्हारा notice period का fine भी दे देंगे पिछली company को, you know, totally unethical poaching. Monday से join करो दो लाख रुपए पर, You know, Monday से join करो तीन लाख रुपए पर, right? And that's not sustainable. Yeah. So I I think वह pressure तो market ने automatically adjust कर लिया because in this year the markets is has slowed down obviously. तो वह पिछले साल का पागलपन थोड़ा control हो गया देसी PhDs लगाए में या जो भी है और they are people who are you know away from the industry and पिछले बीस साल से कान पक गए मेरे sun sun के industry academia linkages हमने बेहतर करनी है, right? So so अच्छा क्या है जी industry से disconnected हैं उनको ऐसी चीज़ पढ़ाई जा रही है जो कि industry में नहीं है. उससे पहले क्या है maths weak है? अच्छा क्या है? Fast और GIC जाने से पहले क्या मसला है? FSC और metric के अंदर maths से ही नहीं पढ़ाई जा रही है. So so you know it goes all the way down. अब उसको break करने का तरीका वही है जो कि बाहर पूरी दुनिया में use हो रहा है कि regardless of whatever crap you you know learnt in the in those four years even in a top university आप निकलकर किसी ना किसी foundational course में जाएं. आप किसी ना किसी boot camp में जाएं. तीन महीने, छह महीने का boot camp करके आप अगर Google जैसी जगहों में जा सकते हैं तो definitely आप Pakistan में किसी top company में काम कर सकते हैं. So now that has started happening at a small level where for example 10 companies will team up together, they'll band together and they'll say कि you know मारा मारी फिर भी नहीं तुमसे तो तोड़ने के बजाय you know let's build talent and it's better for everyone. Yeah, let's let's let's make a let's build a common curriculum, let's train 200 people. उसमें से सौ हम लोग hire करेंगे, सौ market में देंगे, वह घूम घुमाकर बेहतर होकर वापस कभी ना कभी आऐंगे. That is the only way to crack it. Whether it's the private sector or the government sector, supply side issue को crack करने का सिर्फ यही तरीका है. You can't wait for your universities to turn around over the next ten years. It has to be a short to medium term thing. Right. And especially because I feel like the world is evolving so so rapidly कि you have to differentiate between

academia as a research center and vocational training. Now the industry is expanding. This is becoming a vocation in in its own right. Right? And कहते हैं कि यार ठीक है मेरे पास एक full stack developer है but how do you convert that into an AI engineer considering कि AI की demand बढ़ रही है for example. Right right. And so वहां पर आपके पास three to six months वाली चीज़ें हैं ना सिर्फ़ आपको उसको I know for a fact for a lot of students they're just like कि यार मैंने चार साल गुज़ारे हैं. Now why are you asking me to to go six months again? Yeah. But I also know कि वह six months can fundamentally change your life and fundamentally change your career as well. बिल्कुल.

Versus, you know, you just going around figuring out कि यार मुझे कोई नौकरी दे दे, मुझे कुछ सिखा दे, just एक focus तो उसके ऊपर है. Do you think there is enough effort being done there now? It's it's not enough but it's caught on. I think people have realized कि इसका यही तरीका है इसको crack करने का. Also I feel कि I I think हम थोड़े से जो है ना idealistic भी हो जाते हैं because जब भी बात होती है तो everybody talks about AIML और data analytics और know किसी चांद तोड़ देंगे और robotics कर लेंगे, यह कर लेंगे. मतलब even 25,000 जो लोग हैं उसमें से हर किसी को AI नहीं करना या computer vision नहीं करना. That's like for the cream or for the elite. उसमें से 90% वैसे ही बाहर जा चुके होंगे और और you know 1020% यहां होंगे. तो I I I think there is a wide array of skills जो कि यहां क्योंकि generally upskilling अभी तक सही तरीके से नहीं हुई, right? या apprenticeship का even technical side पर या engineering side पर. Polytechnic का culture Pakistan के अंदर नहीं है, right? चार साल की degree का culture है जिसके अंदर आप कुछ भी नहीं सीखते लेकिन उससे बेहतर अगर आप एक साल में कोई technical skill सीख के किसी भी एक engineering company में लग जाएंगे तो वह शायद आप बेहतर एक career बना लें जो कि Europe या इस तरह की developed countries में होता है. वह मैं इसलिए कह रहा हूं because I I think AIML whatever उसके नीचे you know sales force के हज़ारों लोग चाहिए. BPO के हज़ारों लोग चाहिए. You know पचास और चीज़ों के back office, accounting के हज़ारों लोग चाहिए. So वो सारी भी कोई ना कोई upscaling और training है जो कि market में अभी नहीं available, right? And everybody is not an Einstein या everybody is not Google material कि आप उनको AI करवाना शुरू कर दें और एक stadium में बिठा के अब छह हज़ार लोगों को AI करवा रहे हैं, right? हर बंदे का एक scale है, एक range है और the majority actually Pakistan के अंदर जो है वह इसी तरह के services oriented काम ही करेंगे. वह consulting करेंगे, वह Teradata, Oracle, इसकी हज़ारों चीज़ें हैं DevOps, QA. इसकी trainings भी तो required है ना और यह भी कोई कम पैसा नहीं देती. Right. So, वह जो missing angle यहां है ना कि Systems Limited जैसे दस और companies जो कि maybe Systems Limited से दो level कम काम कर रही हों and and that is kind of old school body shopping but that is the bottom of the pyramid that actually feeds the chain then. Right. I think that is missing. Fascinating. जैसे BPO का example अगर आप ले लें, right? Right. Philippines ने दस साल के अंदर India को उनकी पूरी BPO industry को massive hit

पहुंचाएं. Massive hit पहुंचाएं. And concerning Philippines is not a very English speaking market. I mean India was much-much more English speaking than they were. Right, but you know they just focused on one area and they said कि हम call centers और BPO के बादशाह बनना चाहते हैं. So do you think कि on some level कोई foresight up finally आ रही है on maybe on the government level, maybe on the industry level कि for most part आपको both sides से यही नज़र आता था कि वह present को focus कर रहे थे, survive करने की कोशिश कर रहे थे. But अब it seems like from, the policy जो हमें होती हुई नज़र आ रही है थोड़ी सी conversation में भी अब एक एक चीज़ आती है कि नहीं IT is a major area and हमें उसके अंदर invest करना है, हमें इसको figure out करना है. Overall collaboration across the industry बेहतर तरीके से होती हुई नज़रारी है. And I think जो हमें अब जो growth नज़रारी है like systems for example जिस तरीके से grow कर रहा है, it seems like कि अब thought process ज़्यादा growth oriented हो गया है, ज़्यादा ज़्यादा at least दस साल नहीं तो कम से कम वह दो तीन चार साल को project करते हुए अपने आप को, maneuver करने की कोशिश कर रहे हैं. What's your experience like?

हां, unfortunately नहीं है actually जितना जितना होना चाहिए था और जितनी expectation थी and and it's understandable कि हकूमत जब change होती है तो everything is topsy-turvy. पिछले एक साल में it's been crazy just in terms of the economy. अभी floods, there's always something happening, right? So Right. So I think उन issues की वजह से unfortunately जो एक sustained, predictable visionary तो एक बड़ा लफ्ज़ है लेकिन एक sustained, predictable policy making है वह नहीं है, right? और उसकी दो तीन I I think बजुआत हैं और, और industry की भी और बाहर के भी investors या बाहर की भी जितनी भी companies होती हैं ना उनकी बहुत basic requirement होती है और वह simply यह होती है कि आप हमें predictability सिर्फ दे दें. You know, make a decision, tell us that you will stick to it for the next five years so that we can plan accordingly. Right. Right? किसी को यह नहीं चाहिए होता कि आज आपको पांच percent cash rebate मिल रहा है, अगले साल खत्म हो गया, फिर तीसरे साल वह बीस percent हो गया, फिर वापस zero हो गया. You know, I I know it's not from tech लेकिन solar का example ले लें, right? बिल्कुल. अभी जैसे reverse metering का एक issue आ गया, right? So I, I think the biggest issue with any policy in Pakistan is just predictability. Right. और दूसरा मसला यह है कि जिस तरह आपने पहले कहा कि you know the dollar earning capability और dollar की जो dollar starved economy है वह हमेशा से थी लेकिन उस पर lip service देना कुछ और चीज़ होती है और उसके ऊपर ground reality के ऊपर काम करना कुछ और चीज़ होती है, right? जैसे Philippines की बात हो रही है. Philippines के अंदर public private partnership के अंदर, there are tech parks where you can literally land, go and see a building like an STP or an IT park, rent an entire floor over there which is gonna be plug and play, ready to go with trained staff that you can start interviewing from tomorrow morning and you can literally have your BPO up and running with like 200 people within a week.

Really? हां,

right? अब जहां आपको यह infrastructure available हो, obviously government plus private parties, plus trainers, plus all stakeholders involved लेकिन एक well oiled machine होती है, right? तो फिर you know from an outsiders perspective even अगर आप TRG ले लें या हमारे बड़े BPOs ले लें, a lot of times उनके customers उनको force करते थे even when things were ok कि आप Pakistan में team ना expand करें, एक backup plan Philippines में बनाएं because it will be faster, it will be quicker, it will be more reliable, right? So, so I think नीति ब्रीटी के अंदर जब आप जाते हैं और on the ground जो चीज़ें चाहिए होती हैं, it's one thing to say आपने पहले exports की बात की. हम हम लोगों ने कभी सोचा भी नहीं था कि दो billion dollar हम इतना जल्दी exports में hit कर लेंगे. You know, a major chunk of that came because of the freelancing boom, a major chunk of that came because of documentation and you know FATF and the State Bank actually facilitating companies and all of that. बहुत सारा उसमें grey area था, मतलब grey zone के exports हैं जो कि आप document होना शुरू होगे. Exactly कितना है नहीं कह सकते लेकिन let's say fifty fifty है. Right. 50% existing आपने exports को document किया, 50% genuine increase हुआ. Right. दो billion hit करते साथ हर politician जो है वह बातें करना शुरू हो जाता है पांच billion की, दस billion की, कि जी IT industry है IT industry वह, right? The backup support and infrastructure that is needed and the level playing field and the policies that is needed to hit that 10,000,000,000, that is non existent. Right right. Right? So, lip service और actual on the ground IT parks बनाना, वह infrastructure देना, connectivity के issues, training के issues, dollar repatriation के issues, बहुत सारी चीज़ें होती हैं लेकिन उसमें मसला यह होता है कि somebody needs to stay with that problem long enough to solve it. एक साल एक minister, छह महीने एक minister, दो साल एक government.

आपको पता भी नहीं है किसके पास जाओ ना. हां. Like six months के six months later the person committing would they still be there? Exactly. Tell me about STGA because I feel like a large part of what you just mentioned was supposed to be solved by the STGA. अगर मैं real estate की बात करूं तो they were like उनका पूरा concept था. On the get go वह यह था कि जी यह state life की जो building है, उसके अंदर ढाई लाख square foot मिल जाएगा. In a wider scale उन्होंने पूरा वह रखा हुआ था कि यार हम जो है जी ज़मीन भी acquire हो गई है, उसके ऊपर हम जो developers को अलग रखें facilitate करेंगे and companies को अलग facilitate करेंगे. And there was a lot of genuine excitement early days. And this was maybe back in 02/2020 late, and then early twenty twenty one. Yeah. And then, again, with the changing government, a lot of things change. But overall a lot a large part of that excitement seems to have waned and then वही बस वह आपको बस यह नज़र आया कि ठीक है जो existing companies हैं उन्होंने अपने campuses को या buildings purpose based build buildings को तो आपने change करवा दिया. लेकिन कोई actual वही वाली बात है किसी नए बंदे के लिए कोई change नहीं आया. जो, जो already system में चल रहा था उसने कहा ठीक है चलो you know now I can grow further in a more optimized way. Mhmm. So maybe 5% बेहतरी नज़र आई लेकिन शायद उतनी नहीं आई जितनी envision की गई थी. Is that true?

हां, बिल्कुल. तो I I think in in all fairness जैसे STCA, the way they went about it, I think that is the way to do it because you need separate laws. You you you need to keep it in a bubble ताकि उसको existing चीज़ें damage ना कर सके, right? तो उन्होंने जो पूरा structure बनाया that is the way to do it because you need to go big or go home. यह ऐसे नहीं होता कि एक दो buildings को convert कर दिया और वह कर दिया, right? Government change should not damage something like that. Right. It should not be dependent on a certain person leading it or a certain, you know, ambassador or promoter within the government जिनको उसकी समझ आ रही है और अब वह वहां से हट गए तो अब वह project जो है Just restart it all over again. Another white elephant. It's a brand manager change and, you know, yeah. Exactly, right? So, so you know whether आप आप आमिर हाश्मी को blame नहीं कर सकते because government change हुई और उसके बाद now that he is left अब आगे कौन आता है और उसके साथ क्या करता है वह एक नई direction शुरू हो जाएगी, Number number two, I also feel कि STCA by by definition या by their by their DNA, again, they they could have gone with a bottom up approach and they could have taken the local ecosystem and industry onboard first and then built up from that. But they had an more of an outward focused approach where they wanted to attract the big players into Pakistan and have that sort of a DNA, right? And and that's an ambitious goal to have and that's a good goal to have. लेकिन Google, Facebook, Microsoft अभी Pakistan के अंदर campuses नहीं बना रहे. Right. आप जो मर्ज़ी कर लें. Because of our laws, because of data protection, because of IP, because of other things that are more sensitive in terms of just, you know, cultural backlash. YouTube के ऊपर blasphemous video आ गया तो Google के office के साथ क्या होगा यहां and all of those questions which nobody talks about, right? So, you can keep waiting for the big boys to parachute into Pakistan and have a बैंगलोर style campus inside the STCA or you can do a ground up approach is primarily कि existing बहुत सारी companies हैं उनको Polish किया जाए. उनको polish किया जाए. उनको economical, cost effective, twenty four seven, functional जो है वह campuses की ज़रूरत है. उनको shiny buildings और skyscrapers की ज़रूरत नहीं है जहां वह तीन सौ रुपए square foot कराया दे रहे हो. उनको subsidized अच्छी affordable office space चाहिए. जहां आप local companies का एक campus बनाकर उनको वह सारी चीज़ें provide करें जहां taxes की harassment नहीं हो रही, जहां connectivity का issue नहीं है, जहां अगर शहर के अंदर internet या cell phone down है तो वह STCA के अंदर down नहीं हो रहे और वह सारी चीज़ें. Right. Right? So I I think ground up approach is more organic and it can work. लेकिन again, it's a subjective way of solving the same problem and it depends who's in power and who's, you know, at the driving seat. So multiple ways to do it but जो भी करेगा वह success उसकी depend करेगी उसके ऊपर. But again I will give the example of BPOs in Philippines, right? ऐसा नहीं है कि हमें reinvent wheel करने की ज़रूरत है. पूरी दुनिया में हमारे region के अंदर यह दस मुल्कों में यह हो चुका है. कोई Pakistan कोई अनोखी economy नहीं है कि हम, पाशा आपको यह कह रहे हैं कि जी आप कोई k two पर जाकर कोई चीज़ तोड़ के लाएं जो आज तक किसी ने की ही नहीं है. India की सारी बातें करते हैं, $150,000,000,000 and, and the last two decades of becoming a global IT powerhouse. 70% of the things that they have done in different states whether it's गुजरात or whether it's the central sort of federal level policies that they have done, whether it's their IT parks and the way they have gone about it, वह सारी चीज़ें literally internet पर available हैं. अगर आपने वहां नहीं भी जाना तो all those PDFs are lying there, right? It's, it's, it's not rocket science. Philippines ने BPO कैसे setup किए? पाकिस्तानी companies वहां operate करती हैं जो कि Philippines में office चलाती हैं, Malaysia में office चलाती हैं. ये सारी चीज़ें available हैं बांग्लादेश के अंदर. बांग्लादेश की policies are really progressive, right? So you don't need to reinvent the wheel, you need to look at the closest three or four markets और उसको obviously आंखें बंद करके ना copy करें. जैसे when I was at पाशा तो एक हकूमत की तरफ से एक policy document आया है जिसमें जो भी बेचारा वह copy कर रहा था Malaysia का तो उसमें वह एक copy paste करते करते cybersec आया और वह सारे नाम भी copy paste हुए हुए थे और Malaysia के शहर उसमें लिखे हुए थे कि आप STD बनाएंगे so, you know उस तरह ना करें आप लेकिन उसको localize करके आप बहुत आराम से कर सकते हैं. It's everything is right there. It's not that tough of a problem to solve. It's just the will is required. Yeah, because it's happened before. Right. You know, people have earned billions of dollars in exports using those models. Yeah. So, do you think the opportunity for IT growth and export is, is lost on Pakistan? Or do you think there's still an opportunity? If you look at outwards, outwards अगर आप देखें globally demand side के ऊपर तो do you do you think there's still an opportunity? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That we can tap on too if we do things right? I I I think the opportunity will never go away because globally demand and supply का mismatch हमेशा रहेगा और बच्चे तो हमने पैदा करनी है और population कम नहीं हो रही. So वह बेशक third rate हम उनको educate कर रहे हों या जो भी कर रहे हों लेकिन कोई ना कोई supply side से लोग आ रहे हैं जो कि college जा रहे हैं, university जा रहे हैं और कोई ना कोई degree लेकर निकल रहे हैं, पूरी दुनिया में उसकी demand है. Remote work अगले दस साल बढ़ेगा, offshoring बढ़ेगी, Pakistan का stigma कम होगा, already हो चुका है. People don't have issues outsourcing to Pakistan as they did let's say ten years ago, right? So, it's a massive massive pie. मसला सिर्फ यह है कि क्या आपने ring ring के organically उस pie को capture करना है at 10 to 15% per annum या आपने actually exponential करना है या leapfrog करना as you said कि you know दो billion को बीस billion पर ले जाने के लिए बहुत homework और groundwork करने की ज़रूरत है वह तकरीरों से नहीं होता है, right? तो दो billion से ढाई billion, ढाई billion से तीन billion यह, यह चलता रहेगा इंशालाह और you know that's already happening but उसके अंदर हकूमत का you know, that is despite the government, not because of it. Right. So, makes sense. I'm gonna move the conversation now towards the VC side of things and that's more away from ID services and more towards

really the local economy. और सुनिए मेरा probably मैं सवाल start. चलिए, I'll I'll I'll come to that later. पहले तो मुझे यह बताएं कि, how did you come about? You know, what was the thought there? कि चलो यार अब now is the time to to to get into or or rather start managing a VC fund. Was it the right time in terms of did you think this is the right time to to start investing in local startups? Ventures, you know, came into being?

Right, yeah. So we're about two years old right now. So we started before the craziness of 2021. So so, I I I think organic सोच थी और बहुत simple simple सोच थी. वह सोच यह थी कि those of us who were in the tech industry and we had been, watching over the last ten years कि ऐसा ऐसा चीज़ें improve हो रही हैं और बेहतर हो रही हैं और, और just to clarify before we get into that, I there is a difference that a lot of people don't understand which is कि IT industry or traditional IT industry or the world of पाशा and the last twenty years of the Pakistani IT industry, which is primarily services, 90%. That is a very different universe from the universe that has been now created over the last three, four years, which is startups, product companies, and actually VC funding and funded companies. It is a subset of the tech sector but these are totally different beasts in terms of DNA. Right. तो तो I think हम देख रहे थे कि चीज़ें improve हो रही हैं और पिछले तीन चार साल के अंदर accelerators बनना शुरू हुए, incubators बनना शुरू हुए, government ने इसके अंदर step in किया which was kind of a pleasant surprise for you know most people because obviously they had to be subsidized incubators. It doesn't make commercial sense for a private entity to have an incubator unless क्योंकि उसमें equity है या कोई rev share है. The model is kind of tricky for Pakistan, right? So it had to be the government putting in money to actually create that entire ecosystem. And yes, it's taxpayer's money and there's a lot of back and forth and pros and cons कि जी NIC network वन गया है और इन्होंने क्या achieve किया, क्या नहीं किया. I am a huge fan of the NIC network because हम भूल जाते हैं कि आज से पांच साल पहले Pakistan में कुछ भी नहीं KP के अंदर उनके दुर्शैल और वो सारा network उन्होंने जो बनाया they have been really aggressive on that. Just walking into a safe space where you can go and work, you have internet connectivity, there are events, you have like minded people और आपसे कोई बात कर रहे हैं startup बनाने की. यह culture NICs ने ही trigger किया या Punjab के अंदर for example plan nine और PIT भी ने यह trigger किया, right? और यह सारे government funded projects हैं. So so I I think that is a watershed event in terms of that culture. Mhmm. We were looking at this and लोग कर रहे थे, startups आ रहे थे, लोग incubators में जा रहे थे. कुछ VCs started operating in Pakistan. They were Pakistan focused before Pakistan was cool, right? So when you look at the early movers, you look at invest to innovate. क़लतूम लखानी, मिस्बा, उनका पहले incubator होता था. It's almost ten years old. So I to I as an accelerator and then I to I ventures later on. Similarly, sir मायकार अगर आप राबील और इन लोगों को देखें when they came into Pakistan, the market wasn't hot. Pakistan wasn't a hot market to raise for as a VC fund, right? अगर आप LAXM को देखें existing large group, obviously that backing was there but from their private equity and sort of the the whole equity side से they came into the BC side. Similarly फात्मा group obviously very large traditional group but अली मुख्तार ने जब पहले फात्मा से शुरू किया and then फात्मा गोभी की partnership में उसको expand किया. So all of these things were happening लेकिन generally market अगर आप VC market के अंदर देखें तो हमें कुछ gaps नज़र आ रहे थे जो fill नहीं हो रहे थे and at that time we weren't really expecting the Kleiner Perkins and the Sikouas and the Tiger Globals of the world to come into Pakistan in 2021. That was kind of unthinkable. We thought कि that's five years away. Right? मसला यह था कि startups बनना शुरू हो रहे थे, funding की access थोड़ी बहुत थी लेकिन जितने भी DCs आ रहे थे वो generally downstream later stage funding करना चाह रहे थे और it was a mix of two or three things. Number one, Pakistan was a nascent market. Generally छोटी market थी, अभी develop हो रही थी, लोगों को समझ नहीं आ रही थी कि क्या metrics हैं, क्या benchmarks हैं. जितने भी नए funds यहाँ आए थे, they were first time funds in Pakistan. So it wasn't as if SECUA or Kleiner or any other fund had opened an office in Pakistan like India or Malaysia, Indonesia. It was basically people who were themselves first time VCs and I have tremendous respect for all. I mean some of them are my friends and professional colleagues, tremendous respect for them for entering Pakistan when they did, right? लेकिन क्या था कि किसी corporate group का कोई next generation का बेटा है, कोई dev sector से है, कोई telco से है, कोई ex investment banker है, ऐसा नहीं था कि कोई VC, you know, Silicon Valley से उठकर यहां आकर office खोल रहा है. So they themselves were first time VCs. They were trying to feel their way around, be safe, trying to get a feel for the market. Nason market, first time VCs. So that mix initially everybody was very excited but हुआ क्या कि वह VCs position होना शुरू हुए as early stage VCs quote unquote. Right. उनकी website पर early stage VC लिखा होता था. वह अपने आप को कहते थे कि हम early stage VC हैं. जो founders होते थे, startups के वह कहते थे, उनके दिमाग में Y Combinator को देखकर या Tech Crunch पढ़कर या जो भी वह दुनिया America की absorb करके early stage होता था, उनके दिमाग में यह होता था कि early stage VC जो है वह pre seed या पहला check मुझे लिख कर देगा और मेरे पहले बारह महीने के अंदर मुझे इनसे funding मिलेगी. Right. Right. लेकिन they were actually not pre seed, they were seed and maybe pre series A and then series A. They were technically downstream. So when even I used to send startups to these guys या जब भी वो लोग उनके पास जाते थे तो होता यह था कि they used to be pre product और pre product market fit और pre revenue जो आपका पहला साल होता है and that is the most difficult year because आपने bootstrap किया होता है, आपने friends, families and fools का एक छोटा सा round किया हुआ होता है, you are, you know, are really hungry कि कोई मेरा हाथ पकड़ ले, right? तो 90% of the time उनको जवाब यह मिलता था कि we love the team, their product is really interesting. आप ऐसे करें, इसको launch कर लें. छह महीने इसको launch करें. कुछ revenue, कुछ traction पकड़ के, come back to us after six months, nine months, twelve months. Like proof of concept एक लाकर दिखा दें. थोड़ा सा risk mitigate कर दें. हाँ, थोड़ा सा risk mitigate कर दें, market में launch कर दें. फिर आएं, we will write a bigger cheque for you but right now we can't write the cheque for you. Right? और इस सारे process में उनके चार महीने गपशा back and forth और वह सारे भी ज़ाया हो जाते थे and they used to, you know, then come back to me और, और या founders आपस में बात करते थे कि यार यह कहते तो अपने आप को Early stage. Early stage हैं. लेकिन Pakistan के अंदर early stage funding नहीं है और पहले साल के अंदर 90% of startups implode कर जाते हैं because वहीं आपको you know product market fit करते करते ही लोग शहीद हो जाते हैं, right? और आप नहीं bootstrap कर सकते हर चीज़ को. Right. So, so I think वह gap था जो हम देख रहे थे जो कि नहीं fill हो रहा था and nobody was doing and, and every VC has a right to be, you know, late stage, early stage whatever but that gap wasn't being filled, right? And, and other sort of double ramy was कि बाकी पूरी दुनिया के अंदर यह gap actually fill होता है angel investors से और angel syndicate से and unfortunately Pakistan के अंदर वह angel syndicates और angel investors नहीं develop हुए जो कि हो जाने चाहिए थे. हां. तो और वह इसलिए नहीं हुए because हमारे जितने भी हमारे जैसे लोग जो कि अपनी tech company के founders थे या CEOs थे, वह ज़्यादातर 90% services based companies थीं and they were not product based companies, right? So the path they were taking was very service oriented and they weren't taking VC funding themselves. Right. But they were just earning millions of dollars and they had money in their bank account. But they weren't really betting on product founders, right? तो कोई छोटी सी company देख ली, वो भी services कर रहे हैं, उनको पचास हज़ार dollar दे दिए, किसी को नहीं पता चला वो deal हुई है, अपने office में एक floor उनको दे दिया, उनसे rev share कर लिया, Dubai में दफ्तर खोल दिया, you know typical old school के मिल मिल बैठकर पैसे कमा लेते हैं. Modern set. हां, literally yeah modern set, right? Right. या बड़ी अच्छी team है, lumps में मैं गया था, competition देखा, दस हज़ार dollar का cheque लिख दिया. More like charity, right, rather than actually angel investing. Right. Because you, you don't expect anything back from that $10,000, right? यह Silicon Valley से मुज़मिल भाई आए हैं, XYZ company से Microsoft से उन्होंने आकर incubator में judging की और you know यह तो check लिखेंगे उन्होंने पांच हज़ार dollar का एक. Check पर. ED का check आपको लिफाफे में दे दिया कि इससे दो laptop जाकर खरीद लें, right? So, but that doesn't cut it. So unfortunately angel networks सारे under the radar थे और अभी तक actually वह angel networks नहीं बने. So आपकी first calling जो होती है after bootstrapping, after the friends and family, that is कि एक market के अंदर angel network होते हैं और मैं उनसे जाकर पैसे लेता हूँ और 50,000, 100,000, 200,000 raise करता हूँ. मैं छह महीने, बारह महीने उसको validate करता हूं या जो भी मैंने करना होता है then I go to the VCs and raise a pre seed round of a million or whatever. So that gap was not being filled by anybody and हमारा जो rationale था वह primarily यह था कि even जो VC partners थे actually, not, not that हम कोई बहुत कोई geniuses हैं but when we compared ourselves to the VCs operating in Pakistan, we saw that we were operators who were ex founders or current founders and जितने partners हैं we are actually startup builders ourselves. हमने startups खुद बनाए हुए हैं, Pakistan के अंदर बनाए हुए हैं, हमने startups तबाह किए हुए हैं, हमने दरवाज़े बंद किए हुए हैं, startup बंद करने के बाद हमने startups बेची हुई हैं, right? And we have gone through that whole cycle and hiring a 100 people in Pakistan for a technical startup and firing 50 people in Pakistan is a very different ball game compared to doing that in Silicon Valley जहां आप stock equity, ESOP दे सकते हैं, equity दे सकते हैं, culture और है, risk taking का, right? Right. So, यह gap हमें नज़र आ रहा था and this gap wasn't being filled, right? So, you know, we we looked at each other and we said कि, you know, यह gap अगले पांच साल नहीं fill होगा. So, you need somebody who takes that early risk, who writes that first check and who writes it a few notches above engines and a few notches below the large VCs. So you are a genuinely early stage provider of capital. So that's the rationale behind देवसाय कि आप ex founders जिनको पता है कि Pakistan के अंदर एक startup खड़े करने में क्या मसले हैं और जिन्होंने खुद किया हुआ है, वह आपको early stage funding provide करके, hand holding करके take you to that level where you mature, right? Right, makes sense. And obviously we are not the only ones who who can fill that gap. We need 10 more देवशाईs coming in and now by the, by the way the market has changed automatically वह late stage VCs खुद ब खुद early stage deals करना शुरू हो गया ताकि अपने लिए pipeline बना सके. Makes sense. I'm gonna ask you a few functional questions.

Just give me those. पहले तो मुझे यह बताएं कि a lot of these जो VCs हैं आपके अपने पास बाहर, दूसरे जो हैं, are they investing their own capital, a? B, are they investing पाकिस्तानी capital? And c, or or are they invest like investing money or they're going outside of Pakistan telling the world कि यार there is this market that exists. Every data point will tell you कि यार सारी markets जो हैं वह maturity की तरफ़ जा रही हैं, तो they're going to follow the same trajectory. It's huge. It's the sixth largest in the world and so on and so forth, जो pitch deck है. And then, raising money from them and then basically activating it for them in Pakistan, by basically yeah. So gathering that money, bringing it to Pakistan, distributing it into smaller chunks, and start distributing that to to different startups.

बिल्कुल. So 80 to 90% of the money, and that's the good part, right, which people people don't realize. 80 to 90% of the money is from outside Pakistan and they are non पाकिस्तानी investors. Right. That's pure FDI. That's pure FDI. Right. Exactly. और, और when you say VCs तो अगर कोई भी VC है, so for example we are a rolling fund और हमने institutional LPs से भी raise नहीं किया हुआ, right? LPs are the investors that actually put money into VCs. They are large institutions or family offices or high net worth individuals, wide range of sort of LPs that people tap. तो for example कोई भी अगर Pakistan specific VC है, so अगर आप जैसे बाहर जितने भी VCs जो जो बाहर domiciled हैं, the majority are outside Pakistan और अगर आप समाया कर ले लें, I to I ले लें, Indus Valley, आतिफ कर ले लें, इन सब ने Pakistan से बाहर लोगों से पैसे जाकर raise किए for betting on Pakistan and, and there actually focus is Pakistan only. So that's a great sign, right? Where you raise millions of dollars on the promise कि यह हम सिर्फ पाकिस्तानी market के अंदर invest करेंगे because उसका potential इतना ज़्यादा है और हम कहीं और नहीं कर रहे. Right. So that's what we and all the other VCs have done. Right. और जो यह, you know, this money is meant for startups that are so इसके ऊपर बड़ा question आता है कि are these startups...

Because a lot of the ones that we've seen right now are ones operating in पाकिस्तानी market, both in terms of development as well as deployment as a service or a product. Mhmm. And so that's... It's great. I mean, it's... There's nothing wrong with that. It's great for the local market, but then Pakistan does not require more consumption. Pakistan requires more exports. And so is it focused on just tapping into the Pakistan? Are the investors coming in because this is such a huge country and the consumer base is so huge? But are they coming into Pakistan open endedly and could could the the money could potentially go into a product or services business that is targeted towards, let's say, the western markets, but someone has a smart idea and, you know, like वही वाली बात है कि digital products तो अब तो infinite है ना? मैं कहता हूं कि AR VR के अंदर कोई बहुत ही कोई crazy काम करता है. यह genius top of the top creme de creme बाहर जाने के बजाय वह Pakistan में बैठा बैठा कुछ बड़ा कमाल का idea ले आता है. And they're targeting The US market. Is that idea worth investing in as as well? Or are they looking at कि यार जो नहीं नहीं, हमें जो, you know, youth है, जो consumption based बढ़ा रही है, हमें उसी को target करना है. Is that part of the pitch deck?

I think it varies, it depends as you said digital products में आसान होता है. SaaS इसीलिए is a, is a hot market जो कि अब जो है वह heat up हो रही है. SaaS unfortunately जैसे Convo भी मैंने कहा था it's a SaaS product. उस तरह के products Pakistan से बहुत कम निकले, गिने चुनने निकले, right? लेकिन अगर आप Canva या Figma या कोई भी ऐसी चीज़ बनाते हैं, it can become the first unicorn out of Pakistan, right? Right. और even जो operationally heavy I would say जितने भी startups हैं, whether you are talking about Airlift or दस्तगीर or all of these, right? They follow the cream model. So, I think just because of the the legal structure and, and the investment sort of hassle of investing in a Pakistan specific entity, लोगों ने बाहर उनकी जो है वह Holdco और Opco का structure किया हुआ है जहां एक main Holdco बाहर होती है, Delivered Corp हो, Singapore हो, जो भी हो, क्योंकि आपके investors global हैं, उनके लिए generally it's a no brainer कि वह एक delivered corp के account के अंदर पैसे डाल देते हैं, वह hold को बाहर रहती है. Pakistan के अंदर एक opco होती है जो यहां handle कर रही होती है सारे operations और वह पैसे as required. Required. वह ops 100% या 90% यहां हैं तो वह इधर आ जाते हैं. So जो आप बात कर रहे हो export oriented, करीम का example ले लें. करीम obviously based out of UAE and you know multiple countries but very very operationally heavy business model. तो अगर कोई भी चीज़ अगर airlift जैसे बंद होने से पहले यहाँ से शुरू हुए और फिर South Africa में उन्होंने खोला, right? Similarly अगर आप retailओं की बात करें, two country model they had investors from Saudi, so Saudi, Pakistan. Similarly the दस्तगीरs and the जुगनूs and you know all of these दुकान techs and retail या जितने भी लोग हैं जिन्होंने बड़े rounds raise किए हुए हैं, the bikeयाs. यह सब operations अपने ले के किसी ना किसी और मुल्क में जाएंगे. Right. Right? So, वो तो country by country आपको op course बनानी पड़ेंगी और वो सारा hold को में ही जा रहा होगा. Right? लेकिन जो ज़्यादा digital products हैं, ये SaaS products हैं, उन सब को आप obviously as a global product treat कर सकते हैं and Pakistan is just another market. I, I think one thing that the investors have in mind और जो, जो positioning भी इसकी चल रही है ना, वह यह है कि 90% of the funded startups right now और जो specially जिनकी valuation ज़्यादा हैं, उन pitch decks के अंदर एक basic assumption है कि Pakistan itself is not a big enough market to actually justify this valuation. यह तो clear है. Right. तो वह जो आप consumption की बात कर रहे हो, वह ऐसा नहीं है कि आप एक $200,000,000 company के लिए $30,000,000 raise कर सकते हैं और आप यह कह रहे हैं कि मैं सिर्फ पाकिस्तानी youth को serve करूंगा. Right. इन 90% deals में assumption यह होती है कि Pakistan is a big enough market not to ignore. Right. You know, it's, it's not like 5,000,000 की कोई Arab country in the Middle East, right? Right. कि आपको बस थोड़ा सा traction मिली और immediately आपको Jordan से बाहर निकलना है या वहाँ से बाहर निकलना है. It's a begin of market कि आप twelve to twenty four months बहुत आराम से इस market को tap कर सकते हैं. आप अपनी Optimize कर सकते हैं. Optimize कर सकते हैं. आप अपने product validate कर सकते हैं. आप अपना tech stack refine कर सकते हैं. आप teething paints सारे resolve कर सकते हैं. जैसे airlift ने किया, जैसे बाकी सब ने किया, right? Swivel is another example. Egypt से शुरू होकर इसी तरह और मुल्कों के अंदर shuttle service. हर मुल्क का अपना culture है लेकिन आपने exactly यही करना होता है कि आपने एक मुल्क में ops को refine किया and then you replicate that model in multiple geographies. Right. So the implicit assumption on those valuations is that this is a regional or a global play just like करीम, validated in a massive market like Pakistan, which is not small enough to ignore. And by itself, it has good numbers. And then you take that to multiple geographies, and then the first unicorn or whatever you wanna call it बनेगा. Makes sense. That's the basic model.

Would you, I mean, I don't know if that's public, but would you share some of the names that you guys have invested in, अभी अभी हां,

बिल्कुल. So so we're we're sector agnostic. हमने, not only are we early stage and at the highest risk but we wanted to cast a wide net because no single vertical in Pakistan right now has enough high quality deal flow कि आप सिर्फ कहें कि आप सिर्फ fintech पर focus कर रहे हैं या आप सिर्फ edtech पर कर रहे हैं या किसी ऐसी चीज़ पर कर रहे हैं. दूसरा यह है कि early stage 21 से पहले जब पागलपन नहीं हुआ था last year का तो valuations भी थोड़ी ज़्यादा rationalize थी और pre seed stage round, pre seed के जो rounds थे वह इतने बड़े नहीं हो रहे थे. So we kind of capped our ticket sizes also on the lower side and we said for example we said कि we'll do deals as a ticket size we'll cap it at 300. So हम for example अगर million dollars deploy करते हैं instead of one company we want to deploy it across three or four companies. Right. Because of our sector agnostics portfolio. So we've done 10 companies over the last eighteen months plus of active investing. And being sector agnostic, so we the first one we did in tourism and hospitality was Roomie. Right. Ok, it's now I mean, रूमि is doing a phenomenal job. Think that's one of the best,

very underappreciated. हामोशी हामोशी से वो लोग कर रहे हैं, but they're doing a phenomenal job. I don't know what the model there is, though, because I know a lot of people who invested in there. Is

it a a a a major brand जिसके अंदर investment flow in करिए, and they're, they sort of... That's the monster that owns everything or is it more like a asset to asset you know I'll I'll I'll do this asset with this investor and that and नहीं. वह asset to asset model आपको actually मिलेगा co working spaces में Pakistan में common हुआ है. अब जो network यह so बहुत बार आपको यह मिलेगा जहां एक location के ऊपर it's like a rev share model. Right. That's not a venture deal. That's not a typical VC deal. Rumi is a pure VC play where Rumi is the company that is now the, now they're the second largest chain after the Hashwani group, right? Yeah. And I don't doubt they'll be the largest in the next two to three years. हां, so they're fairly aggressive on that. They take place really strong. They're the they're the largest in North Pakistan. Mhmm. But across Pakistan, they're the second largest in in terms of number of rooms. They are growing healthy और उनका बहुत basic model है जो कि हम सब बचपन से रोते आ रहे हैं कि हमें बस एक साफ affordable कमरा Consistent, sorry. That's the word for that. Yeah, बहुत basic सी need है कि जब हम नारान जाएं तो, you know, एक साफ कमरा मिल जाए और गर्म पानी और साफ bathroom मिल जाए और, you know, हमें चालीस हज़ार रुपए नहीं देने उसके लिए. हां, makes sense. So, so that's the model, yeah. Interesting. So, roomy was the first deal initially when we were starting out. उसके बाद freight and logistics के अंदर we did track it in. Right.

अच्छा interesting. We're talking to them on Monday.

हां, बिल्कुल. So we we after the friends and family round, we were the first check in to truck it in, before the round leads came. जो उनका पहला pre seed था डेढ़ million का. And that's essentially,

like, a keep trucking model? Or is it more or more a careem for trucks? It's it's more of a careem for trucks. It's it's a trucking marketplace,

and it it is basically connecting shippers with truckers Okay. And being the marketplace in between. And optimizing operations there essentially. बिल्कुल और tech enablement उसका एक part है लेकिन anybody who thinks कि आप trucking को Pakistan में tech से solve कर सकते हैं. हां हां, वही तो हो जाता है. They are in for a root surprise. So and and you know lovely team obviously one of our early deals so I have a soft corner for them as well. तो How is that going वैसे generally? It's it's going well despite the downturn. अभी obviously वह global downturn की वजह से they took a hit, downsized, did all of that, जो survival mode में जाना ज़रूरी होता है. तो, you know Right. Whatever is needed to survive. But they raised 13,000,000 in the last, in the last round. Very sort of stable, you know, non hype sort of team. And is it a sustainable model? I don't know much about it but maybe. हां, बिल्कुल. It it's a tough model so they're aiming for sustainability over the next twelve months. जो उन्होंने publicly announce भी किया था जब उन्होंने downsize किया. Right. Yeah. ठीक है, and then आगे? उसके बाद fintech के अंदर we have CreditPer which used to be called CreditFix. They are a शरिया compliant micro lender. Mhmm. और वह basically tap कर रहे हैं unbanked लोगों को, for example, bike या riders और you know, your co co driver who needs a cell phone or, motorbike or a loader or,

Right. So primarily वह लोगों को जिनका

वह जिनको वह loan चाहिए to generate revenue and so it makes more sense कि वहां पर उनका return जो है वह comparatively higher हो जाएगा versus someone buying a TV for their home. Exactly exactly. तो और और वह twenty four hour approval process and all of that अगले दिन आप बिंडी जाएं और showroom से अपना bike उठाएं और पहली किस देकर अपनी app download करके घर चले जाएं, right? Makes sense. So micro finance lending which is शर्या compliant. So, so that's an interesting play. NBFC license और वह सारा वह वाला वह path ले रहे हैं. उसके बाद because we love SaaS and generally हमारा SaaS background भी है so, so we have done some interesting SaaS players. There is a founder, founder couple है मीना और उमर, you know them. Right, right. We don't know who x VCs थे. Now they are founders with Metric. Metric is a SaaS which is bookkeeping accounting play for SMEs you know solopreneurs. वह बहुत interesting play है. One of the you know vertical

के अंदर SaaS जो product है कम होते हैं Pakistan में. अब pause करूंगा यहां पर थोड़ा सा मीना अगर आप यह देख रहे हैं बिराही कर हम iPhone पर भी launch करते हैं. हम कुछ लोग iPhone वाले हैं unfortunately and we really need that app. Just wanted to say that. Sorry, yes please. हम अमीरों के लिए नहीं कुछ problem. But I know that I'm an accounting. As a business owner, a small business owner, probably accounting is the... It's the worst. It's the worst. It yeah. That's the the it's the pain that needs to be solved. It's the pain. And it's not a very difficult pain, but it is the good user interface and I know मीना, I know she's going to do a remarkable job with it. Please do it for me. But yes, sorry.

हां, तो तो, so so SaaS का obviously you you you know मीना and उम्र as well and you've seen the app लेकिन इस तरह की vertical के अंदर SaaS apps जो कि interesting mature founders बना रहे हों, बहुत कम होती हैं Pakistan में so really happy with that. I almost feel कि हमने थोड़ी एक cheat sheet use किया because when you know the founders so well तो you know, आपका वह वाला risk खत्म हो जाता है but, you know, that's a super interesting space. Again, जो आप बात कर रहे थे Pakistan की validation and then very quickly regional play. Right. So they are getting lots of inbound interest from, you know, not just emerging markets but across the world like 50 plus countries अब और भी ज़्यादा हो गई होंगी. Right. जहां से लोग उनको download करके use करना चाह रहे हैं, right? So, so that's that. SaaS के अंदर उसके अलावा we have, we have got some interesting other plays. एक food F and B sector के अंदर restaurant loyalty app है Pattern के नाम से. तो है लाहौर based ex दस्तगीर, ex airlift team. Really interesting. So they are going for smart loyalty discounts for restaurants in the F And B market. तो अभी तक जितने भी discounts होते हैं वह dumb होते हैं. आपको 10%, 20% मिलता है. आप भी भूल जाते हैं, अगले भी भूल जाते हैं. उनको नहीं पता होता आपकी favorite dish कौन सी है. बस random discounts आ रहे होते हैं. So these guys actually track your Habits of source. Track your habits and that's why they are called pattern because there is a pattern to how you consume stuff. So if I go to, you know, Loofology or coffee bean and I drink a certain kind of latte, then I want a discount on that. I don't want a discount on a pizza. Right. And similarly, the cafe needs to know कि मेरे customers कौन हैं, right? They're, right now they're flying blind. Right. तो वह both ways. आपको dashboard और analytics में. There is, I mean, वह value है दोनों areas. दोनों stakeholders में there's value to be generated through बिल्कुल. So it's it's a B2C play for the end consumer for us, and it's obviously a B2B play for the restaurant owner. Makes sense. So so that's kind of super interesting because that's that's a growing space. उसके अलावा बहुत sort of unique, SaaS के अंदर ही there there's a company called, InventHub, which is a SaaS play for hardware design. It's like a GitHub for hardware design. अच्छा. इस तरह की चीज़ें Pakistan में बहुत कम होती हैं. So, so like the owner he is, he again he stopped his Stanford thread and came back and did this with the co founders. Really? And बिल्कुल और Tim Draper ने उनमें invest किया हुआ है और वह Draper University वाला cycle out of Doing Pakistan. Doing it out of Pakistan. Right now he is back in The US but like super interesting team. Massive, massive market. Again, उसमें सारे giants हैं. वह typical, you know, small, क्या कहते हैं underdog story कि आपने giants in the market को sort of disrupt करना है. Right. So, you know, the one line explanation is it's a GitHub for hardware design. So, वो लोग हैं again SaaS based online model. उसके अलावा there's a very small interesting sort of SaaS tool called RemoteE which is right now a Slack add on. So it's for remote team management or pandemic or, you know, remote teams management, time, check-in, checkout, presence or both. So, you know, it's this small thing that invisibly just, plugs into your normal workflow and then starts giving you these insights and more control as you go along. So organically, workflow can grow as as as you do that. उसके अलावा agri tech is something that's really interesting for us. It's it's kind of hot as well now. Agri tech अंदर हमारे दो plays हैं. एक easy fresh है which is supply chain, farm to retail. ठीक है. And that's Islamabad based और उसके अलावा a really interesting deep tech play called Farm I mean, Farm Dar is one of the We've interviewed those guys. Yeah. One of the one of my most favorite conversations on this channel. Mhmm.

And what they're doing is just mind numbing in terms of कि it's so exciting. हां, बिल्कुल. Right? Like I hope Inshallah Inshallah वो सारी की सारी चीज़ें हो भी सके. एक तो I really like the founder to be honest. मतलब raise a sharp vision, very focused. दिव्यान बहुत सारे ideas नहीं आ रहे you know really focus on what he is doing but but also I mean when he began to explain कि what they are doing and how they are doing it all made sense. It started off with कि यह क्या करना चाह रहे हैं? And it ended with कि यार, that's a no brainer. Like, why did anybody not think of this before? Yeah. So that's very exciting. Kudos on finding those guys by the way. That's just बिल्कुल, yeah. So so

I I think you, you have met them तो amazing team, amazing product and वही होता है ना कि जब आप no brainer immediately नहीं लगता है, right? Immediately लगता है कि यह क्या you know satellite imagery Pakistan में कौन use करेगा? हां हां. Drones, soil data हर कोई बड़ा बड़ी कहानियां सुनी. हां Right? But जब आप उसको actionable insights के अंदर convert करते हैं and again I mean इंशालाह when when they grow and they they also have regional ambitions लेकिन that's an ideal product जो कि हां I mean Deep tech Pakistan के अंदर validated

and then you take it to emerging markets Africa, MENA, Europe. Yeah. Right? And like उनका सुनकर ना मुझे बड़ा clear था कि यह तो regional play बहुत easy है. जी. और उसमें Pakistan के play देखिए एक चीज़ होती है Pakistan में मैं validate करता हूं ना. तो Pakistan में ठीक है हो जाएगा, करीब कर लेगा so on and so forth. But when you have a deep tech company that's driven by data. Mhmm. And Pakistan में कुछ हो या ना हो, Pakistan में data बहुत ज़्यादा. Right? And so there is a very clear value and utility in really starting it out of Pakistan. Mhmm. Because जो आप उसका foundation बना रहे हैं वह again data backed है और अगर आपने वह it's really just about getting enough data, making creating enough insights. When you've done that, you go to whatever, whoever, and now the confidence is high in your product. Right.

Just because of the fact that you were typing one of the biggest markets in the world in terms of, you know, both agriculture size and the population and, you know, उस तरह से. बिल्कुल. Food security और वह सारा angle भी अब बहुत जो है वह important रहेगा होएगा. पांच साल में और दे Pakistan में data नहीं है and it's painful to get data but at the same time because it's like greenfield, so a lot of times you you you can actually get data more easily. Yeah. Right? Without a lot of sort of loopholes and So so I think, yeah, super interesting place just in terms of data. Right. So as you can tell by now that we're genuinely sector agnostic and, you know, Makes sense. Across the

शरीर भाई मैंने आपसे बहुत ज़्यादा और भी discussion करनी थी. We were already at probably one hour forty minutes maybe. So I'm gonna just sort of, sort of compress it down a little bit. And I would hope, inshallah, you know, we'd see you again because there's a lot more to to unravel here. Or particularly VC side के ऊपर, हम IT में बड़ा बह गए. तो इस वजह से VC वाला बहुत बड़ा अभी रहता था. But, I really wanna have an understanding of, one thing जो कि अगर थोड़ा सा again functionally है, when you guys are investing for for example starting के अंदर, in ideas के अंदर, पहले तो यह है how are you coming across these ideas? Second of all, and this is for the benefit of the viewer or at least a segment of the viewer. What I wanna do is I want the viewer to have an understanding of how VCs work. Why someone would go to a VC? I actually spoke to a couple of founders recently. This NUST kid who's doing, who's who's converting your traffic signals into smart traffic signals. I saw that. You know, at a at a much lower cost. I मैं उससे बात करता था and I was like, know, why do would you ever go to a VC? And he was also, you know, वह NUST में third year में fourth year में उसका start हुआ है उसने NSCP में जगह लेकर team बना लिया team बनाकर उसने CDA को यह proof of concept बनाया like the greatest just next level वह podcast I would love for you to hear that as well. Kid is smart as anything but more importantly वह पढ़ने के साथ यह तो कर ही रहा था उसने घुस घुसकर government sector में आपको पता कितना मुश्किल होता है. Yeah. वह proof of concept करके वह Unilever को भी एक project बेच चुका है. वह इस वक़्त दुनिया में एक petroleum company के लिए और एक और company के लिए projects कर रहा है Pakistan ने बैठा. हैं. Right? And so मेरी understanding यह है कि यार जो early stage VC है particularly वह आपको पैसा इतना नहीं दे रहा जितना ज़्यादा वह आपको एक institutional knowledge दे रहा है और एक आपको hand holding करके दे रहा कि भाई at least एक आपको mentorship provide कर रहा हो और यह बता रहा कि अर्चा बढ़िया जैसे वह काम कर रहे हैं, वह तो काफ़ी बड़े भी हो चुके हैं. मैंने उनसे पुछा नहीं you know, I'm not interested. And so, for a lot of people VC is money. Right. What I'd like to ask you is कि पहला तो यह कि is it just money? Or is there, what is a VC? Why is a VC? Beyond the just the the the, you know, exact translation of it कि यार पैसा देने आए हैं. दूसरा यह है कि how does that work? कितनी involvement होती है? इसके ऊपर एक wider discussion भी होनी थी हमारी कि, you know, like percentages and equities and year But अगर मुझे आप थोड़ा सा बताएं कि on average early stage के ऊपर, like, what's the average percentages of, startups जो कि जा रही होती हैं? कितनी average ticket size होते हैं जो कि you know invest हो रहे होते हैं? And what's the value there? So

it's it's never just the money. I mean for smart founders and in smart deals it's never just the money, right? क्योंकि money असल में Pakistan में क्योंकि पहले access to funds नहीं थी और अभी भी मुश्किल है तो लोग समझते हैं कि money is the hardest part, money is the easiest part in this equation. पैसा बहुत है अभी भी even in the downturn पैसा आ जाता है, आगे और भी ज़्यादा आएगा and actually capital is the least valuable part of the equation, right? पैसे के अलावा as a VC आपने देखना ही यह है कि उस VC का network अपना कैसा है? उन partners का क्या background है और वह कितने hands on actually hand holding कर सकते हैं specially early stage में, right? Not just writing their own checks but also in making sure that your round is complete, right? So for example अगर आप एक million dollars raise कर रहे हैं और मैंने आपको 300 k का पहला cheque दे भी दिया, बाकी 700 k आपने पूरा भरना है, right? So and and we do that and I am not saying कि you know early stage पर सिर्फ होता है, वह late stage में भी होता है. आमतौर पर अगर कोई भी एक lead investor आ जाता है तो उस lead के network में बाकी लोग आकर fill in कर लेते हैं but a lot of times most of the deals we don't lead. In our case we then introduce that deal to our network of other VCs who are actually investing to our angel network और वह सारा भरने के लिए. So, so यह तो हो गया fundraising का. Fundraising के बाद as you said company को चलाना कैसे है, team hire कैसे करनी है, expand कैसे करना product है, पर focus कैसे करना है, right? यह सारा domain knowledge बहुत ज़रूरी होता है depending on which vertical you are working in. So if you are in fintech, you better make sure कि जो VCs आप में invest कर रहे हैं, उनको fintech का knowledge है, उनके fintech network के अंदर connections हैं and all of that, right? So it's it's never just the money. It's definitely the relevance और वह जो शादी की compatibility होती है ना, that is kind of important. I I I think जो traffic light वाले का example या जो भी, you know going to a VC, think that's a really important question because Pakistan के अंदर this whole culture is new और लोगों को अभी समझ नहीं आती कि venture deal क्या होती है, right? So early stage के अंदर जैसे हमारे लिए our, our sort of DNA is no warm intros needed and, and we have that literally on our website and that's the DNA we operate in specially for early stage. अगर उसको explain कर सके, what does that mean? हाँ तो VC की दुनिया के अंदर worm intro जो है ना वह एक बहुत important term है. Silicon Valley के अंदर या कहीं भी. एक worm intro यह होता है कि आमतौर पर VCs इतने busy होते हैं with inbound interest and literally hundreds of emails every day in mature markets and in Pakistan dozens of email every day for those who are busy कि आप जब किसी VC को pitch कर रहे होते हैं, cold call कर रहे होते हैं तो although मैं as a VC मेरा काम है कि मैंने invest करना है and I should be on the lookout for investors, right? लेकिन let's say कि यह Traffic Signal वाले founder ने मुझे एक email की कि मैं Traffic Signal की app एक एक मेरा IoT device है or whatever, right? I will not reply to that person if I don't know that person. Generally

VC की दुनिया में है. वह एक तरह से समझ लेना कि वह जब हम software industry में देखते हैं तो वह कहते कि यार पहला check लगा दो. दस हज़ार CVs है, पहला check लगाओ fast, nast और lumps हां हां. उसके बाद फिर देखेंगे कि

उसको pile में मैं ऊपर priority दे दूंगा और generally पूरी दुनिया में मसला ही यह होता है early stage में because लोगों की पहली startup होती है. उन्होंने आज तक किसी के साथ काम नहीं किया होता. पहला fund raise कर रहे होते हैं, VCs उनको कोई gym लगते हैं जिनके सर पर सींग निकले हुए हैं और वह, you know, they are up in the tower and and most VCs are kind of inaccessible, right? So we wanted to sort of break that for the early stage founder कि you don't need a warm intro with us. Right. So no warm intro is needed and a lot of founders are kind of shocked कि उन्होंने मुझे LinkedIn पर message किया और मैंने उनको जवाब देकर Zoom कर लिया और actually उनको evaluate कर लिया है, right? या generally email का जवाब. मतलब literally I, I, I was shocked कि कितने लोगों ने मुझे यह कहा कि आपने बात कर लिए, we weren't expecting this. Right. Right and, and, and that's kind of sad लेकिन now that I have become a VC I realize कि in, in, inbound traffic कितनी होती है and I'd like to apologize to people with whom I am late on my email replies because you know we are a lean team and I am the primary partner. So I am also drowning in inbound लेकिन I think it was very important for us to say कि आपको किसी की सफ़ारिश नहीं चाहिए हमसे बात करने के लिए. Right. Website पर जहां email लिखा है, contact at दिवसाय dot VC, we'll reply to you personally. मुझे ping करें LinkedIn पर, you know Facebook पर शायद मैं ना करूं लेकिन LinkedIn पर कर लूंगा, right? So I think उससे होता यह है कि people are just comfortable talking to you when their idea is not something that they're very confident about. So for example early stage में we want to make sure that people find us accessible and even if they are not confident about the stage of the idea, they can at least start pitching to early stage VCs, right? Right. So उसकी मेरे लिए downside है उसका ratio क्या होता है? Signal to noise ratio early stage में बहुत बुरा होता है, right? Right. So 90 Zoom calls that I do out of a 100 and and it's been death by Zoom for the last two years because of the pandemic. But 90 out of a 100 Zoom calls that I do, I know for a fact कि मैं इनको evaluate नहीं करूंगा. Right. Not because of the quality of the founder of the product but it's literally not a venture deal and what is a venture deal? यह बहुत सारे founders समझते नहीं है. So इसका एक example यह है कि मुझे दो दिन पहले ही एक pitch आई जिसके अंदर Northern areas के अंदर एक एक शहर में वह एक building लेकर उसको expand करके एक boutique hotel बनाना चाह रहे हैं. ठीक है. Right? Now this is not a venture deal, Right? Simply because they will only have one location and they will be forced to just focus on that one location and then once that one location is proven, then they will have location two, three, four and it'll be like a McDonald's or a franchise or whatever, right? Right. And that is traditional either private equity funding or friends families and fools funding or revenue share funding, जैसे for example co working spaces का example था, right? Right. कि मैं इस्लामबाद के अंदर एक plaza ले रहा हूँ, इसमें मैं इतनी seats लगाऊंगा, co working space होगी, इतना revenue आएगा. आप मुझे दो करोड़ दें, मैं आपको हर महीने या हर साल इतने पैसे दूंगा. Right. Right? Roomie क्यों venture deal है? Because Roomie यह करती है कि Roomie hundreds of rooms across multiple locations पर जाकर उसको convert करके, उसको upscale करके एक tech platform पर डालती है जहां लोग उसको book कर सकते हैं और वह model जब prove हो सकता है तो then they can go from 10 to a 100 to a thousand. Right. Right? So venture deal needs to be scalable. Right. And that is something that a lot of people don't understand and they get frustrated कि जी हम privileged background से नहीं हैं और हम ex airlift या ex करीम नहीं हैं तो हमें VCs घास नहीं डाल रही या हम elite नहीं हैं, right? So I think that is something which has a lot of potential and we are also looking into that ourselves with a partner और अगले पांच साल में आपको Pakistan के अंदर इसको micro private equity या micro PE कहते हैं, जहां actually आपको इस तरह की deals मिलना शुरू होंगी जहां rev share होगा. Right. जहां यह होगा कि this is not a scalable करीम. यह ऐसा नहीं है कि billion dollar company बनेगी, ना यह IPO होगा. This is a commercially viable business. यह hotels की दस hotels की chain बनाएंगे, they will make a lot of money and from that money we will get a dividend based or a revenue share based income. Return on that. I think that makes a lot of sense considering कि Pakistan में for some reason stock market कभी उतना से उठी नहीं, आम आदमी का access नहीं था.

Even around me, you know, I see so many people with so much money that is consistently either wasted on consumption because they don't know what else to do with that money. The money is basically getting burnt in their bank accounts. Yeah. Or they're investing into, again, friends and family and fools वाले. उसमें fools category ज़्यादा वह आती हो रहा है ना. उसमें वह क्या होता कि यार, restaurant खोल खोल जाया कर रहे हैं. या the worst which is कि real estate market पांप हो रही है. And the large part of that is because the fact is an average kid or not even an average kid, an average mid mid age professional जिसने बीस पच्चीस तीस लाख रुपए इकट्ठा कर लिया हुआ है. वह बंदा अपनी job में इतना busy है कि he does not have the time to focus, evaluate and identify कि what's a good place to invest in. बिल्कुल. Right? And so I think there is a very clear utility where बाहर का पैसा आए and आए. I think there's an incredible amount of interest within the local, investor जो कह रहा है कि यार ठीक है, just take my money and, you know, buy किसी ने business नहीं try किया. हां. Partner कभी नहीं किसी को बनाना. हां. You know, that DNA. Absolutely. And so, जहां पर आप यानी कि या तो आप private equity पर चले जाते या stock market इतनी conducive होती है कि यार मैं अपना पैसा लगाता हूं stock के अंदर और वह but जो जो एक successful model है वह company scale कर जाती. But unfortunately वह चीज़ होनी चाहिए. That's very interesting. It's nice to hear कि, you know, you guys are looking into that. And generally आपको यह trend अगले पांच साल में

structured तरीके से होता हुआ नज़र आएगा. ज़बरदस्त.

चलिए, I think again मेरे पास बहुत सारे सवाल आते but I'm gonna wrap this up, simply because Joe आपका, you know, this is almost at two hour. And again, I would love to have another session because there's a lot to unravel here. I think personally there's there's a lot of people who, are now beginning to get interested in this because media frenzy आया twenty twenty one के अंदर जिसकी वजह से now a lot of people are like, यह होता क्या है? क्यों होता है? कैसे होता है? And this sort of, this is like a master class, in getting into that. एक चीज़ मैं आपसे पूछना चाहूंगा, probably the second last thing that I'm gonna ask you, because I know for a fact इसके अंदर ना a lot of people are gonna be, like, they're gonna search up शैरी अरहरी and they're gonna be like, उन्हें वह email address बताया था and everybody's gonna throw in an idea at you. Because, I mean, you know, what's the harm? मैं ढावाऊं एक company के अंदर. Give me a benchmark. Give me a minimum viable कि यार आप अगर अगर यह हो ना आप, तो reach out to me. Don't flood my my my email inbox with with with random ideas और और और bathroom idea कि यार वह मैंने रात को सोचा तो मैं throw कर देता हूं. कमस कम क्या होना चाहिए? At least कुछ कुछ validation होनी चाहिए है, कुछ team होनी चाहिए है. What does an average new founder team look like to you for to be an early stage investor where you're interested?

Yes, so we do idea stage investments. You you don't need to have a product pitch to us, right? That's why the signal to noise ratio is bad. But I think एक basic filter जो हमारा यह होता है जो कि मैं बहुत सारे लोगों को एक simple request करता हूं कि एक pitch deck बनाकर भेज दें. You know, और even अगर आपने आज तक pitch tech का नाम नहीं सुना हुआ तो, you know, if if the founder has enough sense to Google that

and download a template. वह already top 10% में आ जाएगा. हां,

बिल्कुल. तो generally अगर आप यह हैं कि आप नौकरी कर रहे हैं और आपने ख्याली पलाव बनाया हुआ है और आप मेरा times आए या किसी का भी times आए करना चाह रहे हैं, ऐसा नहीं है कि मेरा time कोई बहुत precious है but just for you my advice is that you are not going to get anywhere कि जी मैंने एक idea सोचा है और वह मैं आपसे discuss करना चाह रहा हूं, right? या एक even one pager अगर आप नहीं लिख सकते. So even if you don't pitch to anybody just for your own thinking, make a pitch deck. Right. Because that will force you to put down your thought, you know. At least validate the idea in your own mind कि यार यह हो भी सकता या नहीं हो सकता या मुझे तो दिमाग में लग रहा बहुत अच्छा है but. हो सकता नहीं, हो सकता है वह तो बहुत बाद की बात है लेकिन यह इस idea को मैं explain सही था ना कर सकता हूं कि नहीं कर सकता. Right? Makes sense. So I think एक basic pitch deck आप बनाएं और again people you trust, your own brain bank, mentors, आपके अपने circle में senior junior, left right, हमसाया, बहुत सारे लोग होते हैं उनसे उस पर feedback लें before you start reaching out to other people. That's a basic thing. बहुत सारे ideas, idea stage पर बहुत strong होते हैं लेकिन उन लोगों ने homework करके उसके पीछे team lineup ना भी की भी हो लेकिन उन्होंने homework किया हुआ होता है. So even if it's a solo founder, मतलब Pakistan के अंदर यह हम इतने mature नहीं हुए हैं कि मैं कहूं कि जी solo founder को मैं नहीं बात करूंगा या तीन लोग अगर होंगे और आपने नौकरी अगर छोड़ी नहीं होगी तो आपसे बात नहीं करूंगा. That's how everybody starts nights and weekends part time. एक बंदा छोड़ता है, फिर दूसरा छोड़ता है. That's how it works. I I I think basic pitch deck अगर आप बना सकते हैं, you can pitch to anybody. Makes sense.

Is generally a question that I ask all of my guests, and I'd like to ask the same from you as well. Particularly because you're a VC, so VC is a is generally an optimistic person. Right? You can't be a pessimist in this business. Yeah. And and and your focus to towards Pakistan, like you mentioned कि, you know, you're taking all of that FDI and you're saying, listen, we're working in पाकिस्तानी markets. And so, मैं आज ही पढ़ा था. Actually, right before this podcast, our prime minister was saying, you know, if you don't get debt relief, all hell will break loose. And then I went on Twitter and I was like, ok, चलो उन्होंने तो यह बोल दिया. I'm a little scared but then I went on Twitter and there was an investment banker who showed me कि Pakistan के सुखक bonds जो हैं, वह इस वक़्त ten year जो yield है वह suddenly, 35% से 115% पर गए मैं इस month and, you know, the title was imminent for collapse. Yeah. Comparing it to to to, Sri Lankan markets and saying के, you know, they right before their sort of, collapse, they were two to three points better off than they were. Yeah. And so that shows your market sentiment. Mhmm. And you fairly seem unfazed Yeah. Considering you put in a ton of money here. Yeah. So I would like to ask you, how do you see Pakistan twenty eight years years from now? Knowing what you know now, seeing what you've seen, you've had a very diverse experience. You're now sort of betting big on on a huge movement of sorts where you're like, you know, there is a there is a new. ठीक है, वह शायद पूरे Pakistan को engulf ना करें but एक आपको नज़र आ रहा है कि एक एक एक vertical है, एक एक बुनियार डाली जा रही है. Yeah. In this new age of entrepreneurs and these new, uh-uh, essentially नए तरीके के लोग हैं जो कि differently सोच रहे हैं, differently काम कर रहे हैं, differently collaborate कर रहे हैं and they're beginning to reject the conventional way of how we used to do things and that holds value. Right? How do you see Pakistan? Knowing all of that, how do you see Pakistan twenty eight years from now?

हां, so so I think as you said, as a VC it's my job to be an optimist, but मेरा DNA भी generally जो है वह, I'm an unphased optimist, but I'm I'm a real I'm I'm a realist as well. So ऐसा नहीं है कि कोई रोज़ी tinted glasses and all of that. Right? So I think you have to have very thick skin to survive and operate in Pakistan, and expectation management अपनी करनी होती है. So frankly, at the macro level, I'm totally comfortable. It's unfortunate, but I'm totally comfortable with two steps forward, one step back. That is our modus operandi and that is how we'll operate. भेजा कि हमारी cricket team हो, हमारा मुल्क हो, हमारी अखूमत हो, हमारी economy हो, that's the way it'll be unless कि बलूचिस्तान के अंदर कोई uranium या सोना निकल आए जो कि हम बेसना शुरू कर दें या तेल निकल आए और हम Dubai वन जाए और you know barring some Force measure, positive Yeah, force some event like that, it's going to be two steps forward, one step back. Right. So, एक तो वह है कि वह जब आप accept कर लेते हैं, generally आपकी positivity भी realistic हो जाती है. I am super optimistic overall जिस तरह चीज़ें जा रही हैं within, within obviously our sector but I I I think before I talk about Pakistan मैं बहुत ज़रूरी एक चीज़ कहना चाह रहा हूँ वह है startup ecosystem के बारे में and that actually drives my sort of optimism as well. लेकिन I think कि बहुत सारे लोग realize नहीं करते कि हो क्या रहा है. एक layman on the side जो बैठा हुआ है social media पर person on the street जो है, उनके लिए यह एक fad है या यह एक कोई दो साल पुराना flash in the pan है और जैसे एक trend होता ना Pakistan में किसी सब ने telco, telecom engineering करनी है, सब ने MBA करना है, सब ने social media करनी है. तो लोग समझ रहे हैं यह startup startup खेल रहे हैं, कोई यह game है बाहर से dollar मुफ्ता रहे हैं, आसमान से पैसे गिर रहे हैं. Right. और you know अब तो खैर market slowdown हो गई, air lift का झटका लगा, सब सोचना शुरू हो गया कि अब तबाह हो जाएंगे, ecosystem खत्म हो जाएगा but fortunately, you know, we have turned the corner as far as the ecosystem is concerned. It's still nascent but it's mature, it's not going anywhere, right? So the ecosystem has reached a certain level of maturity जहां you've, you know, you're, you've hit a certain milestone and आपने ऐसा नहीं है कि wipe out हो जाएगा unless obviously again कोई massive catastrophe खुदाना खासा or something like that. दूसरी चीज़ जो realize करने वाली है optimistic जो मैं हूँ, वह यह कि startup culture से एक literally नई generation create हो रही है जो पहले Pakistan में नहीं थी और यह है access to finance, access to opportunities, access to actually income redistribution among people who are not from privileged backgrounds, who are from middle class, lower middle class. अभी I know कि आप जब founders को देखते हैं तो वह America return वापस्थानी होते हैं या ex McKinsey होते हैं या ex airlift होते हैं या कराची grammar school या lumps या you know whatever एक elite वह ठप्पे होते हैं. लेकिन as you dig down and as you look at the entire teams, right? Even आप करीम का अगर देख लें, करीम भी एक watershed event था. करीम से पहले कोई सोच नहीं सकता था कि इतनी बड़ी चीज़ Pakistan से निकलेगी but more importantly, more important than the 3,000,000,000 that they were required for. Ex करीम या करीम mafia का जो एक DNA है, मेरी भी बहुत सारी portfolio companies में ex करीम है, trucker tin boys ex करीम है. Just the belief and confidence that you can dream big and you can have audacious goals and pull them off sitting out of Pakistan, यह belief पहले नहीं होता था, right? और यह अब जो startups वन रहे हैं, I know it's a sliver of the total economy लेकिन you will see people who will empower millions of people across Pakistan with their products, with their services, by creating the next करीमs, by creating you know the next Figmas and, and Canvas or whatever, right? और लोगों को उसके exponential returns अभी तक उन्होंने देखे नहीं हैं because हम वही हमारे लिए systems limited या कोई services company which again is making hundreds of millions of dollars लेकिन हमारे लिए वह एक organic चीज़ ही अभी तक realistic है, right? लेकिन आज से तीन साल पहले कोई सोच नहीं सकता था, दो साल पहले even when देवशाय started, कोई सोच नहीं सकता था कि twenty twenty one के अंदर, Pakistan के अंदर there will be 80 plus startups that will raise $350,000,000 in a single year. Despite the slowdown, global slowdown, we've already crossed three twenty five right now already and we're about to cross three fifty पिछले साल का, right? Despite the recession, the floods, the the forex, the everything Pakistan में क्यामत आई हुई है, government change हुई हुई है, all of that. Right? So I know it's it's a small capsule as a part of the economy. Very interesting. Mean, I think despite all of that, if you're getting 350,

that's I mean, that's definitely something to be optimistic about, que अगला साल is hopefully gonna be better. Right? With less political, uncertainty,

with no floods, with so you you build on that. Like, year on year on year, you just build on getting better and and and being less sick as as a country or as an economy. बिल्कुल बिल्कुल and I and I don't want to just link it to these numbers जो कि सुनने में अच्छे लगते हैं. It's not about the three fifty million जो मैं बात कर रहा था optimism की, it's about the next ten years and a new generation of people that is forming. Mhmm. जो कि बहुत एक historic time में भी जो लोग active हैं, right? And यह startup culture जो है this is not going anywhere. Right. So that's what I meant कि जैसे एक obviously on a, on a lower मतलब वह food chain में lower है लेकिन जैसे freelancing culture Pakistan में पिछले तीन से पांच साल में boom किया और वह इतना boom किया कि वह बेशक fiber के पांच dollar का logo ही था लेकिन you became the second, third largest pool of freelancers in the world. Right, right. So at least आए तो है ना and then the next step could be upskilling them and giving them more higher value. So dollar dollar होता है वह AI से आए या पांच dollar के लोगों से आए, Pakistan को dollars चाहिए, right? Right. And and people are moving up the food chain. तो यह when I say startup founders and when I say this culture and access to funds and all of this, this is a new literally a historic new phase of wealth creation that was never never there in Pakistan before और यह अगले एक decade की trajectory है. Regardless of the ups and downs and the economy or whatever, this is gonna be fueling a new culture that I'm, like, super optimistic about. So I think 2050 is too far down the road for me to, like, make any sort of sensible, projections or predictions. I I I think we'll we'll have our hands full with problems even in 2050 population bomb and all of that economy और geopolitical missile और फिर भी India से कोई ना कोई हम लड़े होंगे या Afghanistan से कोई मसले चल रहे होंगे despite the

motorway going to Central Asia or through Iran to Turkey or whatever, you know, is the milestone CPAC का. लेकिन, know, all of that will continue but But do you think अगर मैं इसको थोड़ा सा वह करूं, do you think we've constantly had this sort an existential crisis every single time? Mhmm. Do you think we're at at at at in an on any level now beginning to learn how to expand ourselves? At least, यार, bankruptcy वाली problems होंगे. I I don't doubt that. You know, some of the best economies are still middle income economies or I mean they're not like America तो नहीं वन गए ना? Yeah. And so obviously that has its own set of challenges. Culture होता है, कुछ चीज़ें generations लेती हैं वह आपसे reverse way उसमें नहीं कर सकते और, you but at the very least, जिस तरह हमने India में देखा 91 के अंदर, you know, they had a financial crisis and they came out of it and now they're suddenly, over time वह एक एक direction थी but now they're well placed to rise as regional power. बिल्कुल. हमने Turkey को देखा दोता एक में. हमने Indonesia को देखा 98 में. बिल्कुल. Very similar culture both politically like political economy उनकी literally Pakistan वाली थी modern day की. Right. And at one point they were just वह post Asian financial market collapse. वह they decided कि यार ठीक है चलो अब हमें थोड़ा एक different direction ले. Took a while but you know you saw unicorns coming out of Indonesia and वह एकदम से पूरा culture ही बदल गया और वह एक country जो है वह suddenly was on this. वह है ना कि पाकिस्तानी को पैसा

you know, the top thing to show off about, right? And that was amazing, right? तो आप commerce को e commerce पर convert करने का देख लें तो, you know, again सालखोट वाला DNA, everybody is now opening Amazon stores and and exporting, right? Yeah. So the Alibaba DNA और वह सारी चीज़ें हमारी culture में आ रही हैं ना. Dropshipping, यहां से चीज़ें भेजना, otherwise कमाना. Everybody wants to make dollars. That's, that's great. उसमें बहुत सारा गंद होगा लेकिन वह एक naturally filter out हो जाएगा. Similarly know India की जो आप बात कर रहे थे या Philippines की जो बात हो रही थी. I, I, I think इतना कोई ऐसा नहीं होता कि हकूमत ने किसी ने कोई vision सोचा और उसने कोई switch on किया और you know एक rejecting चली गई but definitely you know that thing is missing in Pakistan जहां somebody at the top has the vision and has the strategy जहां वह एक चीज़ पर commit करें long term and then they back it up with you know not just lip service but they back it up with you know taxpayers money and policy and all of that. तो I think वह अगर होता है तो हम definitely leapfrog करेंगे otherwise organically हम बढ़ ही रहे हैं. मतलब वह सारी IT is not going anywhere. India ने जैसे बीस साल के अंदर IT powerhouse ने उनकी पूरी economy को you know, एक तरह से turbocharge कर दिया. उनकी culture को turbocharge कर दिया, right? And and it's never too late to do that. So we can do that in multiple verticals, we can do that in a focus area but looking at the past history, वह यही होगा two steps forward, one step back. Generally things are, you know, there there are ample opportunity in the region. I I I think बहुत सारे छोटी छोटी industries will show other people the way and tech is in the center of this because tech is that magic sauce जो कि बाकी सारी हमारी industries में जो है वह उसको exponential gains कर सकती है. So textile agri tech हो, edtech हो, healthtech हो, you know fintech हो, Tech is there in all of these, right? And and I know कि वह बहुत सारी कहानियां भी होती हैं और over, you know, over ambitious promises भी होते हैं लेकिन, know, we we forget where more than a 100,000,000 smartphones now. We never ever imagine Pakistan में यह होगा. Right. Right? Illiteracy अपनी जगह, मसाल अपनी जगह, लोआ अर्पूज अपनी जगह, spending power अपनी जगह. लेकिन generally all of these thinking मतलब हर वह building block is coming in place. Right. I I don't think that we're gonna become, you know, South Korea and by 2050, I I don't think that's gonna happen. But I think organically

बहुत potential है, बहुत चीज़ें करने का. Make sense. शैर्यार भाई, thank you so much coming in and sharing all that insight. I hope to see you again very, very soon. My pleasure. You know, taking the time out and all of that. Very excited to hear about all of those startups. I hope के, you know, they they they give you good results. Would love to talk to, you know, some of the ones that I haven't talked to, so would love to connect with them as well. Yep. And for all of you guys अगर आपको कोई बात, agree या disagreeable लगे हमें comment section में ज़रूर आकर बताएं. इसी के साथ साथ YouTube वाले like कपड़े दबाएंगे engagement पड़ेगी ज़्यादा लोगों में हमारी conversation पहुंचेगी. Channel, we accept anything from 1 rupee to as much as you'd like. It's a thought that counts, but इसी के साथ साथ मैंने आपको यह भी बताना था, पहले भी बताया है. That we're actually starting partnered programs on TBT. So if you're working with a brand or an agency, you can reach out to us on our email address. It's available on our YouTube channel, जहां पर, you know, we can talk about how we're going to, we can potentially partner up because we're hoping to scale this up in the fourth season, and we're just beginning to lay the foundations for that as well. But anyways, this was Sayyuz Amiras and Zedi. You are watching Cloud Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in the next one.