Thought Behind Things · Mar 31, 2026 · 1:02:36
Ninety universities became 270 and the budget never moved
Dr. Habib Bokhari on why Pakistan's university boom hid a quality collapse, and which fields matter once AI reshapes work.
with Dr. Habib Bokhari
10 min read
Second largest out-of-school population in the world
Muzamil opens the episode with a number he has repeated before and returns to often: 25 to 26 million children in Pakistan are out of school. “We have the second largest out of school children population in the world,” he says. The government’s own figures put education spending at 0.8% of GDP, against 2.5 to 3% in India and up to 5% in some other Asian economies. The stakes, in his telling, are compounding. Pakistan built its recent economic hopes on producing coders and freelancers, a strategy that made sense before large language models started writing code. Now that space is being disrupted too, just as computer science graduates were becoming the country’s default answer to the jobs question.
Muzamil frames the moment as a rare kind of luck disguised as danger. Past disruptions took Pakistan a decade or more to even notice. This one is visible in real time, on the same phones and feeds that carry everything else, which means there is still a window to prepare, in robotics, energy systems, food security, and climate adaptation, before the window closes. He even brings the horizon closer to home: asking around about where jobs will exist by 2050, for his own five-year-old son, the answer he keeps getting back is space exploration and asteroid mining, a horizon he admits Pakistan isn’t thinking about at all, while the medium-term fields, the ones that matter for the next decade, are the real subject of this conversation.
That framing is why Muzamil brought on Dr. Habib Bokhari, a career academic who has spent decades inside Pakistan’s university system and has watched it try, and largely fail, to plan for what comes next.
From a government school in Bahawalpur to Glasgow
Dr. Habib Bokhari describes his own path as almost a rebuttal to the idea that Pakistan’s public system produces nothing. He came up through government schools in Bahawalpur, at a time when those schools still had working laboratories for metalwork, woodwork, and electronics, the kind of hands-on training that built creative and critical thinking. From there it was Government College Lahore, then Quaid-i-Azam University for a master’s and MPhil in biotechnology and biochemistry, then a government job, then a Commonwealth Scholarship that took him to the University of Glasgow for his PhD.
His doctoral work was on pertussis, whooping cough, chosen deliberately because no one in Pakistan was researching it at the time. A Commonwealth Fellowship later brought him to the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, where he worked on diarrheal disease and on glyco-engineering, using microorganisms as factories to synthesize molecules now reshaping medicine. A Fulbright fellowship and teaching stints at American universities followed. Through all of it he stayed tied to COMSATS, where he has now spent close to 24 years and had a hand in building a university from the ground up.
Asked why academics chase multiple postdocs and fellowships, Dr. Habib Bokhari ties it directly to how tightly Western education systems are wired into industry and research. Every four or five years he sought a sabbatical or a fellowship abroad, not for prestige alone, but because staying current meant staying exposed to systems that were moving faster than Pakistan’s. That habit, he says, is what let him keep broadening from a narrow specialty into someone who could later help design a whole university.
Ninety universities became 270, and the budget never moved
Asked to diagnose Pakistan’s higher education system, Dr. Habib Bokhari goes straight to a number. “When I joined COMSATS in 2002-2003, there were ninety universities in Pakistan. Now I look and there are 270. But the budget has stayed roughly the same.” Higher education, he says, has three obligations: accessibility, quality, and relevance. Pakistan chased accessibility by multiplying institutions, but without new money behind them, quality was the part that gave way.
His fix is not simply “spend more,” though he wants that too. It is to concentrate resources: pick a handful of provincial centers of excellence and convert them into genuine research universities, the way the UK’s Russell Group or the US Ivy League function, with heavy funding tied to a working pipeline from invention disclosure to patent filing to commercialized product to startup. He sketches the scale of what that pipeline produces elsewhere, tens of billions in R&D spending feeding thousands of patents a year, a meaningful share of which become companies. Pakistan, over 25 years, has produced a few thousand startups in total. The US and UK each produce thousands in a single year. Part of the gap is simply scale, Pakistan has two to two and a half million students in higher education against 30 to 35 million in the US and roughly 40 million in China, but Dr. Habib Bokhari insists the raw material, “amazing youth, amazing brain,” is already there. What is missing is the system around it.
Five years of amazing youth, no outcome
Muzamil pushes back with visible frustration. He has spent five years hearing the same line, that Pakistan has amazing youth and amazing brainpower, without seeing it convert into outcomes. He wonders aloud whether government is even the right lever: a system with this many actors and this many competing interests may be structurally incapable of holding a 10 to 20 year vision, because everyone wants a return now, and education does not pay out that fast. The comparison he reaches for is blunt. India spends more than $100 billion a year on education, with roughly seven times Pakistan’s population and ten times its economy. Pakistan spends $4 to 5 billion, a twentieth of India’s total, when proportionally it should be closer to $10 to 20 billion.
He brings the argument down to a single family. Working-class parents who migrated from rural areas to cities over the past two or three decades often carry one dream for their children: a public school, then hopefully a government university seat. But seats are scarce, roughly 20 out of every 100 applicants get in. Of the rest, Muzamil asks pointedly, “are they condemned, are they doomed to blue collar, low value work for the rest of their lives,” repeating across generations, unless some private-sector, AI-enabled alternative can upskill them at scale, cheaply, and well. He also floats a theory about who can actually move the needle: not government, which he thinks may be structurally too slow, but people like himself and Dr. Habib Bokhari, a private sector and third-party push that builds demand from below by putting real success stories in front of families who are still only dreaming about what education could do for their children.
Degree plus: skills alongside the paper
Dr. Habib Bokhari’s answer starts with a sector most policy conversations skip: small and medium enterprises, which generate roughly 40% of Pakistan’s non-agricultural GDP and 78% of its non-agricultural workforce, largely staffed by people with limited formal education. Train that population in practical, short-cycle skills, he argues, hybrid models that reach rural and remote students without requiring a full campus, and Pakistan effectively builds its own version of a gig economy anchored in real trades rather than credentials alone. He points to government matric-level technical courses as a starting template.
The underlying philosophy is what he calls degree-plus. “You need a skill, you need a system, and that’s all,” he says, describing how little formal schooling some specialized industrial roles actually require once the right training pipeline exists. He holds up Singapore as the model of a small country that plans its workforce the way a genome plans an organism, deciding in advance what percentage of people it needs in which sector, then investing to match. That discipline, not a bigger population or bigger GDP, is what turned Singapore into one of the world’s top innovation economies.
The trillion-dollar bio-economy hiding in Pakistan’s labs
Dr. Habib Bokhari’s own field gives him a specific way of describing the opportunity. DNA, he says, is a 3.5-billion-year-old blueprint that the West has spent decades mining for biofuels, biomedicine, and pharmaceuticals, an industry now worth trillions of dollars globally, built on synthetic biology and AI-driven optimization of biological processes. Pakistan has barely entered that field, despite having the underlying biodiversity and, in his telling, the talent.
He argues the way to prioritize is to look twenty years out and treat coming threats as a task list. Antimicrobial resistance, he notes, is projected to cause roughly ten million deaths and $100 trillion in losses globally in the coming years, a slow-moving crisis that bioinformatics, paired with industry investment, could get ahead of. Robotics, engineering, cybersecurity, climate-resilient crops, and food security round out his list. Pakistan, he points out, has absorbed roughly 150 extreme weather shocks over the past 10 to 15 years, costing close to 1.7% of GDP, while global development goals rank decent work, climate action, and sustainable consumption as top priorities in that order. Training a workforce against that list, rather than against yesterday’s job titles, is what he means by relevance. He recalls bringing village children into his university laboratory and watching them light up at facilities they didn’t know existed in Pakistan, a small act he thinks needs to happen far more often if rural, public-school kids are ever going to see themselves in these fields.
Why he came back, and what 2050 looks like
Closing the conversation, Muzamil asks the personal question underneath all the policy: why stay in Pakistan when opportunities, and nationality, were available abroad. Dr. Habib Bokhari confirms the option was real, at the time a postdoc position abroad could convert into nationality within a couple of years, for him and his children both. He didn’t take it. What kept him was simpler than career logic. “This country gave us so much, shaped us, and then there’s the bond with family, with parents. That was what brought me back,” he says. He now channels that back into advisory roles, he describes serving on Gates Foundation-linked antimicrobial resistance work in Africa, sitting on the Commonwealth Scholarship Commission’s alumni panel, holding a board of trustees seat at the Pakistan Science Foundation, and working as a Fulbright evaluator alongside USEFP and the British Council. He calls it reaching “the highest position that was possible in my cadre,” a line delivered without much drama, more accounting than boast.
On his own children, he doesn’t pressure them to return, but he is candid about the hope underneath that hands-off stance. “When they become skilled enough, if they can still deliver for the country, nothing is better than that,” he says. Asked to project Pakistan to 2050, he doesn’t offer a forecast so much as a disposition: challenges have been constant for the 20-plus years he has been watching, and “adapting to those challenges, surviving with those challenges, that’s also a top skill.” He treats that adaptability, more than any single policy fix, as the trait that will decide the outcome.
Teachers with a bigger following than any politician
The episode closes on an aside that Dr. Habib Bokhari and Muzamil both land on independently: the shifting shape of influence in Pakistani education. Dr. Habib Bokhari recalls teachers who once drew crowds of students on bicycles to informal tuition sessions, a real if small-scale fan following built purely on being good at explaining things. Muzamil picks up the same thread, noting that today’s teachers and educators on social media command audiences far larger than that generation of tuition instructors ever did, and could, if they chose, use that reach to push the same demand-side shift Muzamil described earlier, convincing ordinary families that education pays off, one success story at a time.
It is a smaller note to end on, but it fits the episode’s throughline. Neither Muzamil nor Dr. Habib Bokhari treats government failure as the end of the story. Both keep circling back to what individuals, teachers, families, entrepreneurs, can do while waiting for the system above them to catch up.
Full transcript
Khush aamdeed hazraat, welcome back to another episode of Thought Behind Things. Jaisa ke aapko pata hai recently main bohat zyada is cheez ke baray mein baat kar raha hoon ke aanay walay waqt mein cheezain bohat zyada badalnay wali hain on the back of AI. Aik nai industrial revolution aa rahi hai. Nai qism ki jobs nai qism ki opportunities potentially emerge karnay wali hain. Aur jo purani cheezain jo ke jis pe hum already as Pakistanis lack kar rahay thay lekin finally hum ne unko samajhna shuru kar diya tha, woh potentially disrupt ho jayengi. Jo ke liay hamaray liye bohat zyada damaging bhi ho sakti hain. Aur agar hum is nai duniya ko quickly samajh jayen to hamaray liye bohat sari opportunities bhi aa sakti hain. I feel like ke Pakistan mein unfortunately hum itni zyada politics ke andar aur you know society ke masail aur economy ke masail ke andar itna phansay hue hain ke hum farsighted aik long-term vision bana nahi pa rahay. Thora sa agar main aap logon ko context de sakoon. Maine pehle bhi yeh baat batai hai ke Pakistan mein education ki bohat buri halat hai. Is waqt 25-26 million out of school children hain. We have the second largest out of school children population in the world. Hamari jo education ke upar investment hai woh bohat hi abysmal hai. Government ka itna koi focus unfortunately hai nahi jisay hum apnay bachon ko educate kar saken, future ready kar saken. Jo hum educate kar bhi rahay hain woh itni poor quality ka hai. Again, investment bohat kam hai. We invest 0.8% of our GDP according to government's own figures last year on education, comparable to India jo ke 2.5 to 3% on average invest kar raha hai. And other countries in Asia jo ke up to 5% apni country ke logon ko educate karnay pe lagate hain. Education is very very important kyun ke post AI ab aapko jo generic kaam, jo ratha rathaya kaam hai woh machines bhi potentially kar lengi. Aap ko insano ko aik holistic vision chahiye hai, aik understanding of things chahiye. Unko pata hona chahiye ke yaar biology kis tarah kaam karti hai, human body kis tarah kaam karti hai, engineering kis tarah se hoti hai. Jis say woh potentially solutions bana saken. Unfortunately, hum abhi bhi puranay waqt mein baithe hue hain. Hum to generic economy aur generic industries ke upar focus kar rahay hain. Aur agar thora bohta hum ne progress kar bhi liya to hum ne freelancers dhoondhe, humein pata laga us say dollar kamaye jatay hain. To ab hum ne aik factory laga li hai ke computer science ke bachay nikalte rahen aur coding seekh len. Jo ke is waqt pichlay teen char mahinay mein jo main San Francisco mein tha aur Seattle mein tha aur jitna maine explore kiya hai, unfortunately woh poori space bhi disrupt honay wali hai. So it is a scary situation but there is an opportunity as well. Jaisay ke pehle hum Pakistan mein jab disruptions aayi hain to humein pata nahi tha humein 10-12-15 saal lagte thay pata laganay mein. Aaj social media ka daur hai, internet ka daur hai. Duniya mein changes aa rahi hain to na sirf humein uskay baray mein pata bhi lag raha hai balkay hamaray paas directly Pakistan mein kisi gaon mein beth ke hamaray paas opportunity hai ke hum un changes ko samajhtay hue jo nai cheezain emerge kar rahi hain unko bhi seekh saken. Aur yehi wajah hai ke aaj ki jo hamari conversation hai uske upar I wanted to speak to an academic trying to understand ke jo Pakistan ka education system hai, particularly higher education ka system hai, woh kis jagah pe khara hua hai, us mein kya potentially masail hain aur kis tarah se hum aik potential solution ki taraf ja saktay hain. Khaas kar jo hamaray naujawan jo ke apnay aap ko higher education mein dalna chahtay hain woh dekh kar identify kar saken ke yaar kidhar hum ne parhnay ke liye jana hai, kis tarah ki fields mein hum ne jana hai. Kahan par cheezain lack kar rahi hain. Hum jab jawan thay to hum to university chala jatay thay humein lagta tha yaar ye aik itna bara idara hai, inko sab pata hai, ye humein train kar dengi aur phir hamari to baray nikal jayengi. The fact of the matter is you need to understand the weaknesses of the system. You don't have to let go of university all together ya aap degree ko ignore karein. Degrees are very important, going to universities are very important. But also know the weaknesses of these universities and compensate for that using the internet, using other resources, using you know potential instructors and so on and so forth. But nonetheless in tamam conversations ko karnay ke liye aaj hum ne dawat di hai Dr. Habib Bukhari who was formerly the Vice Chancellor of COMSATS University in Lahore. Unho ne aik poori university ko ground up banaya, ready kiya, chalu kiya us mein you know hazar say zyada students us mein ready kiye. So he has an experience of building universities, most recently. 24 years ka career hai at COMSATS as well. He's done his PhD from the UK. Us kay baad unho ne teen char different post-docs kiye hain from multiple places including the UK. Bohat zyada unka emergent technologies ka experience hai. He was one of the first bio-informatics researcher from Pakistan jo ke UK say gaye. Aur wapas Pakistan aa ke unho ne us ka program bhi 2003 mein pehli dafa shuru kiya. So he understands how to sort of take these emergent new technologies, integrate them into Pakistan and create the talent that is world class. Aur ye is wajah say important hai kyun ke aanay walay waqt ke andar meri yahan par conversations ho rahi hain, generic cheezain kafi had tak disrupt ho jayengi. Computer science disrupt ho jayega, you know generic skills disrupt ho jayengi. Zyada jo cheezain chalengi woh robotics hai kyun ke hum to narrative ye bana lia hai hum ne ke engineering farigh hai, mechanical, electrical, whatever. But ab engineering exciting honay wali hai kyun ke robotics bohat radically increase honay wali hai. Energy systems ke andar bohat zyada changes aa rahi hain. Hum fuel based say renewable ki taraf ja rahay hain, solar ki taraf ja rahay hain. Aur hum radically increase in energy consumption ki taraf ja rahay hain to wahan par bohat sari opportunities aa rahi hain. Food security is emerging as a major threat. Climate change is emerging as a major threat. In areas ke andar humein log chahiye jo ke solutions provide kar saken. And then yahan par main logon say baat kar raha tha for my own son who is 5 years old right now, ke ji 2050 ke andar sab say zyada jobs kahan par hongi. To mujhe overwhelmingly log bata rahay hain ke space exploration ke andar, asteroid mining ke andar us time pe jobs hongi. To us ka to mujhe lagta hai ke Pakistan mein log soch bhi nahi rahay. But nonetheless that's extremely far out. In the medium and short term, aap kay paas certain fields emerge kar rahi hain jis pe humein jana hai. Nonetheless, this is Dr. Habib Bukhari on the Thought Behind Things podcast, season 6. Dr. Sahab, first of all, thank you so much for taking the time out and being part of the show.
Thank you very much Muzammil, Muzammil, I am so happy to be here with you on this podcast and try to see how can I address those challenges which we have already, you know, narrated in your introduction. To main poori koshish karunga aap kay sawalon ke kathin sawalon ke jawabat doon.
Inshallah. Sir, thora sa main start karunga just to understand a bit about yourself. Quick agar summary mujhe de dein ke, you know, what was life like, education aap ne kahan se li, professional experience aap ka kya raha?
Achha aap aap I am a kind of a generation jissay aap kehngay na X generation. To aap been trained and taught in government schools initially. And government schools and we were lucky to have a great teachers at that time. Bahawalpur was a city and the government technical high school. And school ke andar there was a, ab jo aaj main farq dekhta hoon schooling ke andar, us waqt we do have access to the laboratories, to practical laboratories hoti theen. Jiss mein aap ki metal works, wood works, electronics ki jo skills thi, science ke bachon ko wahan pe zaroor training di jati thi jisay creative thinking aur critical thinking aur creativity ka aik component jo qaim rehta tha. Woh ab nayab ho gaya. Afterwords government college Lahore and then Quaid-e-Azam University, did my masters and MPhil in biotechnology and biochemistry. 96-7 mein came into the government job. Taught for three years and then got this an opportunity of a commonwealth scholarship. And my favorite destination UK, obviously ended up in one of the university, University of Glasgow, you know, that about one of the member of the Russell group top 24 university jo UK ki hain. To us mein uska shumar hota hai. And worked on, you know, about pertussis, woh kinkhansi, kali khansi ke upar jo bara major problem hai yahan Pakistan mein bhi. DTP vaccines ka naam aap ne suna hoga, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, pertussis was the topic. So it's a very relevant topic. So I picked deliberately that topic so I can bring back that knowledge so I can, you know, fill in that gap in the country. At that time there was no research going on that subject in Pakistan. To mujhe us subject ne kafi help kiya apna career build karnay mein in initial phases ke andar. To phir uskay baad jo agla safar tha, also had an opportunity later on to avail the commonwealth fellowship in 2003, which is very prestigious again in UK. And they provided an opportunity for London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, UK. To for a year worked on diarrheal diseases and then also worked on a glyco-engineering vaccines platform, aik nai platform jo jis mein aap aagay chal kar baat bhi karengay. Jiss mein aap tiny microorganisms ko use kartay hain as a microbial factory to synthesize essential molecules which are, you know, changing the world today. Aur that was something which, you know, and I had an opportunity to work in other international organization as well. Fulbright mein meray paas raha and I worked and taught in US universities as well. To COMSATS ke saath pichlay almost 24 saal say associate hoon. And you are already mentioned I had a chance to establish a new university as well. To this is a brief introduction.
Interesting. I was looking at your profile, you have the bachelors and the masters and the PhD. But then you had like three or four post-doctorates. And I was curious that how does that sort of work? Is it something that sort of stays with it? You know, how long does it take? Academia mein post-PhD, what is it generally?
Right, is mein dekhen do teen cheezain hain. Aap agar West mein jayen na ji to do teen cheezain hum dekhte hotay hain. Apnay aap ko re-skill karna, up-skill karna, that is something which is very useful nowadays in order to train the workforce. Future workforce jiss tarah aap ne kaha kyun ke cheezain itni tezi se tabdeel hoti hain. West mein education systems ke andar and kyun ke education systems and R&D is tightly linked with the industry. To unless and until you do not get exposure frequently and regularly with those systems, you will not be able to basically deliver back. So after after every four or five years I try to get a sabbatical jo aapko universities mein milti hai. And also getting a foreign fellowship, comparative fellowships. To that also, you know, raise your aap ka uske andar aik acha prestigious award bhi hota hai aur saath mein aap ko mauqa bhi mil jata hai apnay aap ko up-skill and re-skill myself. To kyun ke aap ko pata hai jab aap academia mein as you grow up or professor level pe pohanchtay hain, then your range of subjects hain woh broad ho jatay hain. So that a lot of areas can be identified and can be worked on in order to prepare a future workforce in diverse areas rather than in a single area. To woh thora sa hum us mein aik khas waqt ke saath saath expand karna pada aur mujhe uske andar bara faida bhi hua. I'll go ahead and talk to you about that. How that helped in terms of bridging gaps and developing international linkages, collaborations, international funding and so on and so forth. Makes sense. Again, iskay baray mein particularly poocha. Aap ne pehle hi mention kiya ke you know, your favorite place the UK, right? Aap ne parha zahir hai sari government university schools say phir eventually university say as well. I believe is a largest in Pakistan as well. Um, uskay baad jab aap ka ye UK ka pehli dafa experience raha to what was the difference there in terms of the education system that you found here? As well as the overall education that you sort of experienced in the UK?
accessibility ke jo challenges the, yeh bahut asaan hai. Health system, bachon ke saath aap gaye to health system was amazing. As I said, two of my kids were born there, so that was again adventure for both of us, me and my wife, to woh ek hamare liye bada ek acha aur bachon ne wahan learn bhi kiya, that as I said, woh bhi ek bada acha unke liye experience raha and that also helped later on in their career mein one way or other way, indirectly to nahi hua, directly to nahi, lekin woh ek jo jise kehte hain na ji memory, residual memory helped them to grow in their career later on, woh bahut usko help hua unke andar. To I I would strongly suggest ke bilkul aapko mauqa mile to all sorts of universities, all sorts of areas are open where the excellence can be seen in a diverse fields, whatever field you are. Aapne workforce ke hawaley se kaha to woh jo different is waqt emerging technologies hain, uske andar bahut saare idaray jo hain woh top of the list hain. Excellence ke hawaley se, usmein aap AI ka zikr kar diya, aapne robotics hain, aapki artificial intelligence ke shobay hain, bio economies hain, pharmaceutical industry hai, there are so many other areas jahan aap aapko under the small, you know, city ke andar, ek hi ke andar kai aisi universities mil jayengi, clusters of universities, which cannot only talk to each other, which can help you to work in an interdisciplinary environment to make your holistic and a complete package jo ke later on aapko future workforce ke liye bada acha sabit hoga aur aaj ke aane wale 20 saal aur 30 saal ke andar aur and then you can build on, obviously these foundation things keep on changing and evolving, but you have that foundation which will help you to build on further to all those disruption which happens over the years, to woh aap aasani se un opportunities ko grab kar sakenge. Makes sense. Um, thoda sa main switch karta hoon gas ko aur context bhi deliver kar deta hoon. Um, the reason why I am having a lot of these conversations is because I feel like Pakistan mein na hum education aur health do aise subjects hain, maine I mean I have spoken to over 500 different thought leaders across multiple different industries, right? Sabse zyada jo Pakistan mein logon ko ironically conversation sunne ka shauk hai, woh paise ke bare mein hai. Agar aap koi baat kar rahe ho na ke aao main aapko batata hoon paisa kis tarah banana hai aur khas kar agar aap yeh bata do ke asaan tareeqa paise banane ka kya hai, um to aapke bahut zyada views bhi aate hain. Everybody loves to listen to that. Acha, mere liye interesting hai because paisa directly linked hai education se aur maine apni family mein bhi dekha, maine apne khandan mein bhi dekha ke um jitne you know social mobility jitna zyada education aapko deti hai, agar aap usko karo, yes you need that certain patience and discipline to be able to ensure ke aap value create kar rahe ho. Lekin long term ke upar woh jo spike hota hai na ke yaar aao main tumhe asaan tareeqa sikha deta hoon paise kamane ka, woh ek quick aata bhi hai aur quick jata bhi hai aur uski sustainability nahi hoti. Education is something jo ke doesn't matter your background, if you are educated, you know, you can be comparable to anyone else. And unfortunately, jab hum education ki baat karte hain to hamesha viewership bhi badi buri aati hai. Um and you know, people just don't want to listen. But Pakistan mein agar hum education ke stats ki baat karein, maine multiple times channel ke upar yeh mention kiya hai, but again for those who are new, um is waqt taqreeban 50 lakh bacha 18 saal ki umar ko pahunch raha hai. Uh almost half of that is graduating high school. Aadha to graduate hi nahi kar raha, woh drop out kar jata hai for one reason or the other. And that's I mean quite sad, abysmal stat. Uh out of school children bahut zyada hain, but agar un out of school ko side pe rakhein, to jo 25 lakh high school se graduate bhi kar rahe hain, varying quality ke saath, usmein se total jo around higher education ki seats available hain, woh 5 se 6 lakh hain per annum. And that basically means that almost jo sirf high school ke bache hain, almost 80% of them do not have the ability or opportunity to pursue any higher education and or a higher value skill set or work. Um jo woh 5 se 6 lakh bhi hain, usmein zahir hai jo aapki top tier universities hain, uh unko aap side pe agar kar lein, to jo baqi bahut saari aapki different pure Pakistan mein universities talent produce kar rahi hain, unfortunately uski employability ke upar bhi bahut saari reports kehti hain ke sawaliya nishan hai. And more importantly, HEC ki main stat dekh raha tha jiske andar uh report ke andar jismein unhone jo breakdown diya hua hai na ke bacha padh kya raha hai. To mere liye woh sabse fascinating baat thi because common prevailing narrative yeh hai ke hamare yahan to har kisi ko doctor ya engineer banne ka shauk hai. The fact of the matter is ke majority bache aapke jo hain woh either arts mein ja rahe hain, humanities mein ja rahe hain, ya business mein ja rahe hain. Nothing against those subjects. I think they are great. Um I think uh you know, every society needs those, but you need a proportionate amount of people going into areas jahan par is waqt muashray ki requirement hai because paisa uske hisab se banta hai, right? Um Pakistan ka GDP almost 30 to 40% agriculture hai. 6 lakh mein se 9,000 log sirf agriculture padhte hain. I mean that just to me it's mind numbing. Ke aapko to ek puri fauj padhe likhe agriculturist ki banani chahiye taake aap apni yields badha sakein aur quality badha sakein. Similarly aapki uh you know, engineering, problem solving, computer science, areas jo ke clearly have uh have a lot of workforce potential or at least had a lot of workforce potential uh you know, at least pre AI area ke andar. Um wahan par bade thode amount log hain. Bahut saare natural sciences padh rahe hain, jo ke mujhe maloom hai ke agar you know almost I think 26, 27% natural sciences padh rahe the, jo ke aise bache hain jo ke masters, PhD nahi pursue karenge, research nahi produce karenge. Um and therefore woh job ke liye agar aake math padh rahe hain, job ke liye aake biology padh rahe hain, to woh mere liye question mark hai because usmein applied kaam nahi hai, to woh bacha wahan se graduate karke kya karega? Right? So, it to me, at least from the outside, it seems like ke hamari jo puri education policy hai, woh bahut ad-hoc hai. Woh bas uh alag thalag chal rahi hai. Har banda apna kuch do dedh minute ki maze mein kuch kar raha hai. Um aur uski wajah se jo overall society hai, considering the the behemoth that Pakistan is with 250 million uh people, I feel like it's like a, you know, we are in Titanic and it's a huge iceberg and we don't realize ke aane wale waqt ki jo changes hain, usmein to hamara yeh talent jisko hum baar baar kehte hain ke hamara youth jo hai hamara sabse bada asasa hai, wohi aapka sabse bada potential challenge ban jayega jab uske paas na koi kaam karne ko hai. Uh you know, so is pure context ko madd-e-nazar rakhte hue as a starter, what is your understanding of the education system in Pakistan, um coming from the academia and the administration background? I'm trying to basically you have gather, you know, put so many questions. Main shuru karta hoon aur koshish karta hoon ke main jo aapne shuru se point liya, education and health. Yeh do aapne uh uh keyword use use kiye aur phir aapne us context mein out of school children ka bhi zikr kar diya. Now main pehle usi se aata hoon, dekhein it's a huge jo bulge hai out of school bachon ka taqreeban 25, 26 million is waqt kaha ja raha hai and Pakistan is also a country uh where it's top of the list in terms of a stunted growth children. Taqreeban is waqt 40 fisad bacha if 9 se 10 million agar main translate karun usko uh uh approximately banta hai. And that stunted child is something which is, you know, aapko physically and mentally not fit and capable of retaining uh you know, jise kehte hain na knowledge or aapki learning capability uski compromise hui hai aur uska taluq nutrition se bhi hai, uska vaccination aur bimariyon se bhi hai, sanitation, hygiene se bhi hai, gut health se bhi hai, where is a gut and brain access jo hai, aapas mein link hote hain aur iska jo uh hamare ird-gird ka mahol aur thodi si awareness se aur challenges ko address kiya jata hai with aur kuch government ne is initiative liye bhi hain. Let's hope uh aur kuch mulkon ne is se nikal ke bhi aaye hain, Cuba jaisa mulk tha, usne sanitation, hygiene ko aur ek uh uh protein ko ande ki shakal mein bachon ko regularly jo low income group se diya, 50% unhone is pe qabu bhi paya. Now this is a systematically they have done. So this is where the primary health linked with the education. Aapne usko bachon ko basically education ke andar aapko bajaye unko ek liability banane ke ek asset bana diya. This is something which we need to work and understand this link between a primary health and a primary education aur woh uske baad zahir hai fuel in hota hai aur jitna brain aayega aapka is education mein higher education ke chances utne hi ache hain. To you need only a few success story to transform the whole system na. To isliye jitna zyada brain usmein to pehla to aur iske upar logon ko Nobel prize bhi mila hai, India ke andar uh uh aaj se teen char saal pehle kuch economist ko unhone isi ke upar kaam karke uh uh bunyadi taur pe. Ab yeh ek system hai jiske upar kaam ho raha hai aur hum us pe kuch kaam kiya bhi hai, uh ab kisi aur mauqe pe uske upar hum aapko saath share bhi karenge story. Now coming back to now ke ab yeh jo aap bachon ko school ki leke aur higher education ka jo safar hai, kyunki yeh it's a continuum. As I said, maine yahan kaha uh primary education, secondary education, college and you know aapki university, yeh ek pipeline hai. Iske andar these different communities should talk to each other, which we are not doing as a matter of fact. Curriculum aur syllabus kahan se jaake link hona hai, agla aur agle ne kaise agle ko tayar karna hai and that's something which is which requires a lot of overhauling. To ismein humein thodi si mehnat ki bhi karni hai aur usmein practical component aur experiential learning is very important, jo laboratories ka component hai. Kyunki what I feel jab aap higher education mein bachon ko tayar karke bhejte hain uh to compare to the rest of the world hum teen char, char saal, do saal peeche hi hote hain kyunki hum unko jo sikhana hota hai undergrad aur grad level pe, woh college se seekh ke aaye hote hain. To hum samjhein ke aap apna ek to waqt wahan pe hamara kaafi uh jo hai zaya bhi hota hai aur bache jo aap kehte hain na future ready workforce ke andar woh challenges bhi thoda sa. Pehla to yeh ek uh jo hai, dusra aapne kaha ke ab kahan kaunsi aisi priorities banayi jaye higher education ke andar, yeh duniya jahan ko is waqt challenges face ho rahe hain, aapko pata hai fourth industrial revolution ka time hai aur saath mein now AI has now been uh uh uh a factor which is also playing a profound role in terms of preparing a workforce and integrating and disrupting every single field aur uske andar woh role aa raha hai aur AI ki integration in health, AI ki integration in uh agriculture sector, aapne hamari economy ka backbone bata diya, bada factor hai iske andar. Uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh 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Maine I mean I've spoken to over 500 different uh thought leaders across multiple different industries, right? Sabse zyada jo Pakistan mein logon ko um ironically uh conversation sunne ka shauk hai, woh paise ke bare mein hai. Agar aap koi baat kar rahe ho na ke aao main aapko batata hoon paisa kis tarah banana hai aur khas kar agar aap yeh bata do ke asaan tareeqa paise banane ka kya hai, um to aapke bahut zyada views bhi aate hain. Everybody loves to listen to that. Acha, mere liye interesting hai because paisa directly linked hai education se aur maine apni family mein bhi dekha, maine apne khandan mein bhi dekha ke um jitne you know social mobility jitna zyada education aapko deti hai, agar aap usko karo, yes you need that certain patience and discipline to be able to ensure ke aap value create kar rahe ho. Lekin long term ke upar woh jo spike hota hai na ke yaar aao main tumhe asaan tareeqa sikha deta hoon paise kamane ka, woh ek quick aata bhi hai aur quick jata bhi hai aur uski sustainability nahi hoti. Education is something jo ke doesn't matter your background, if you are educated, you know, you can be comparable to anyone else. And unfortunately, jab hum education ki baat karte hain to hamesha viewership bhi badi buri aati hai. Um and you know, people just don't want to listen. But Pakistan mein agar hum education ke stats ki baat karein, maine multiple times channel ke upar yeh mention kiya hai, but again for those who are new, um is waqt taqreeban 50 lakh bacha 18 saal ki umar ko pahunch raha hai. Uh almost half of that is graduating high school. Aadha to graduate hi nahi kar raha, woh drop out kar jata hai for one reason or the other. And that's I mean quite sad, abysmal stat. Uh out of school children bahut zyada hain, but agar un out of school ko side pe rakhein, to jo 25 lakh high school se graduate bhi kar rahe hain, varying quality ke saath, usmein se total jo around higher education ki seats available hain, woh 5 se 6 lakh hain per annum. And that basically means that almost jo sirf high school ke bache hain, almost 80% of them do not have the ability or opportunity to pursue any higher education and or a higher value skill set or work. Um jo woh 5 se 6 lakh bhi hain, usmein zahir hai jo aapki top tier universities hain, uh unko aap side pe agar kar lein, to jo baqi bahut saari aapki different pure Pakistan mein universities talent produce kar rahi hain, unfortunately uski employability ke upar bhi bahut saari reports kehti hain ke sawaliya nishan hai. And more importantly, HEC ki main stat dekh raha tha jiske andar uh report ke andar jismein unhone jo breakdown diya hua hai na ke bacha padh kya raha hai. To mere liye woh sabse fascinating baat thi because common prevailing narrative yeh hai ke hamare yahan to har kisi ko doctor ya engineer banne ka shauk hai. The fact of the matter is ke majority bache aapke jo hain woh either arts mein ja rahe hain, humanities mein ja rahe hain, ya business mein ja rahe hain. Nothing against those subjects. I think they are great. Um I think uh you know, every society needs those, but you need a proportionate amount of people going into areas jahan par is waqt muashray ki requirement hai because paisa uske hisab se banta hai, right? Um Pakistan ka GDP almost 30 to 40% agriculture hai. 6 lakh mein se 9,000 log sirf agriculture padhte hain. I mean that just to me it's mind numbing. Ke aapko to ek puri fauj padhe likhe agriculturist ki banani chahiye taake aap apni yields badha sakein aur quality badha sakein. Similarly aapki uh you know, engineering, problem solving, computer science, areas jo ke clearly have uh have a lot of workforce potential or at least had a lot of workforce potential uh you know, at least pre AI area ke andar. Um wahan par bade thode amount log hain. Bahut saare natural sciences padh rahe hain, jo ke mujhe maloom hai ke agar you know almost I think 26, 27% natural sciences padh rahe the, jo ke aise bache hain jo ke masters, PhD nahi pursue karenge, research nahi produce karenge. Um and therefore woh job ke liye agar aake math padh rahe hain, job ke liye aake biology padh rahe hain, to woh mere liye question mark hai because usmein applied kaam nahi hai, to woh bacha wahan se graduate karke kya karega? Right? So, it to me, at least from the outside, it seems like ke hamari jo puri education policy hai, woh bahut ad-hoc hai. Woh bas uh alag thalag chal rahi hai. Har banda apna kuch do dedh minute ki maze mein kuch kar raha hai. Um aur uski wajah se jo overall society hai, considering the the behemoth that Pakistan is with 250 million uh people, I feel like it's like a, you know, we are in Titanic and it's a huge iceberg and we don't realize ke aane wale waqt ki jo changes hain, usmein to hamara yeh talent jisko hum baar baar kehte hain ke hamara youth jo hai hamara sabse bada asasa hai, wohi aapka sabse bada potential challenge ban jayega jab uske paas na koi kaam karne ko hai. Uh you know, so is pure context ko madd-e-nazar rakhte hue as a starter, what is your understanding of the education system in Pakistan, um coming from the academia and the administration background? I'm trying to basically you have gather, you know, put so many questions. Main shuru karta hoon aur koshish karta hoon ke main jo aapne shuru se point liya, education and health. Yeh do aapne uh uh keyword use use kiye aur phir aapne us context mein out of school children ka bhi zikr kar diya. Now main pehle usi se aata hoon, dekhein it's a huge jo bulge hai out of school bachon ka taqreeban 25, 26 million is waqt kaha ja raha hai and Pakistan is also a country uh where it's top of the list in terms of a stunted growth children. Taqreeban is waqt 40 fisad bacha if 9 se 10 million agar main translate karun usko uh uh approximately banta hai. And that stunted child is something which is, you know, aapko physically and mentally not fit and capable of retaining uh you know, jise kehte hain na knowledge or aapki learning capability uski compromise hui hai aur uska taluq nutrition se bhi hai, uska vaccination aur bimariyon se bhi hai, sanitation, hygiene se bhi hai, gut health se bhi hai, where is a gut and brain access jo hai, aapas mein link hote hain aur iska jo uh hamare ird-gird ka mahol aur thodi si awareness se aur challenges ko address kiya jata hai with aur kuch government ne is initiative liye bhi hain. Let's hope uh aur kuch mulkon ne is se nikal ke bhi aaye hain, Cuba jaisa mulk tha, usne sanitation, hygiene ko aur ek uh uh protein ko ande ki shakal mein bachon ko regularly jo low income group se diya, 50% unhone is pe qabu bhi paya. Now this is a systematically they have done. So this is where the primary health linked with the education. Aapne usko bachon ko basically education ke andar aapko bajaye unko ek liability banane ke ek asset bana diya. This is something which we need to work and understand this link between a primary health and a primary education aur woh uske baad zahir hai fuel in hota hai aur jitna brain aayega aapka is education mein higher education ke chances utne hi ache hain. To you need only a few success story to transform the whole system na. To isliye jitna zyada brain usmein to pehla to aur iske upar logon ko Nobel prize bhi mila hai, India ke andar uh uh aaj se teen char saal pehle kuch economist ko unhone isi ke upar kaam karke uh uh bunyadi taur pe. Ab yeh ek system hai jiske upar kaam ho raha hai aur hum us pe kuch kaam kiya bhi hai, uh ab kisi aur mauqe pe uske upar hum aapko saath share bhi karenge story. Now coming back to now ke ab yeh jo aap bachon ko school ki leke aur higher education ka jo safar hai, kyunki yeh it's a continuum. As I said, maine yahan kaha uh primary education, secondary education, college and you know aapki university, yeh ek pipeline hai. Iske andar these different communities should talk to each other, which we are not doing as a matter of fact. Curriculum aur syllabus kahan se jaake link hona hai, agla aur agle ne kaise agle ko tayar karna hai and that's something which is which requires a lot of overhauling. To ismein humein thodi si mehnat ki bhi karni hai aur usmein practical component aur experiential learning is very important, jo laboratories ka component hai. Kyunki what I feel jab aap higher education mein bachon ko tayar karke bhejte hain uh to compare to the rest of the world hum teen char, char saal, do saal peeche hi hote hain kyunki hum unko jo sikhana hota hai undergrad aur grad level pe, woh college se seekh ke aaye hote hain. To hum samjhein ke aap apna ek to waqt wahan pe hamara kaafi uh jo hai zaya bhi hota hai aur bache jo aap kehte hain na future ready workforce ke andar woh challenges bhi thoda sa. Pehla to yeh ek uh jo hai, dusra aapne kaha ke ab kahan kaunsi aisi priorities banayi jaye higher education ke andar, yeh duniya jahan ko is waqt challenges face ho rahe hain, aapko pata hai fourth industrial revolution ka time hai aur saath mein now AI has now been uh uh uh a factor which is also playing a profound role in terms of preparing a workforce and integrating and disrupting every single field aur uske andar woh role aa raha hai aur AI ki integration in health, AI ki integration in uh agriculture sector, aapne hamari economy ka backbone bata diya, bada factor hai iske andar. Uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh 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uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh, and that's the reason why I'm having a lot of these conversations is because I feel like Pakistan mein na hum education aur health do aise subjects hain. Maine I mean I've spoken to over 500 different uh thought leaders across multiple different industries, right? Sabse zyada jo Pakistan mein logon ko um ironically uh conversation sunne ka shauk hai, woh paise ke bare mein hai. Agar aap koi baat kar rahe ho na ke aao main aapko batata hoon paisa kis tarah banana hai aur khas kar agar aap yeh bata do ke asaan tareeqa paise banane ka kya hai, um to aapke bahut zyada views bhi aate hain. Everybody loves to listen to that. Acha, mere liye interesting hai because paisa directly linked hai education se aur maine apni family mein bhi dekha, maine apne khandan mein bhi dekha ke um jitne you know social mobility jitna zyada education aapko deti hai, agar aap usko karo, yes you need that certain patience and discipline to be able to ensure ke aap value create kar rahe ho. Lekin long term ke upar woh jo spike hota hai na ke yaar aao main tumhe asaan tareeqa sikha deta hoon paise kamane ka, woh ek quick aata bhi hai aur quick jata bhi hai aur uski sustainability nahi hoti. Education is something jo ke doesn't matter your background, if you are educated, you know, you can be comparable to anyone else. And unfortunately, jab hum education ki baat karte hain to hamesha viewership bhi badi buri aati hai. Um and you know, people just don't want to listen. But Pakistan mein agar hum education ke stats ki baat karein, maine multiple times channel ke upar yeh mention kiya hai, but again for those who are new, um is waqt taqreeban 50 lakh bacha 18 saal ki umar ko pahunch raha hai. Uh almost half of that is graduating high school. Aadha to graduate hi nahi kar raha, woh drop out kar jata hai for one reason or the other. And that's I mean quite sad, abysmal stat. Uh out of school children bahut zyada hain, but agar un out of school ko side pe rakhein, to jo 25 lakh high school se graduate bhi kar rahe hain, varying quality ke saath, usmein se total jo around higher education ki seats available hain, woh 5 se 6 lakh hain per annum. And that basically means that almost jo sirf high school ke bache hain, almost 80% of them do not have the ability or opportunity to pursue any higher education and or a higher value skill set or work. Um jo woh 5 se 6 lakh bhi hain, usmein zahir hai jo aapki top tier universities hain, uh unko aap side pe agar kar lein, to jo baqi bahut saari aapki different pure Pakistan mein universities talent produce kar rahi hain, unfortunately uski employability ke upar bhi bahut saari reports kehti hain ke sawaliya nishan hai. And more importantly, HEC ki main stat dekh raha tha jiske andar uh report ke andar jismein unhone jo breakdown diya hua hai na ke bacha padh kya raha hai. To mere liye woh sabse fascinating baat thi because common prevailing narrative yeh hai ke hamare yahan to har kisi ko doctor ya engineer banne ka shauk hai. The fact of the matter is ke majority bache aapke jo hain woh either arts mein ja rahe hain, humanities mein ja rahe hain, ya business mein ja rahe hain. Nothing against those subjects. I think they are great. Um I think uh you know, every society needs those, but you need a proportionate amount of people going into areas jahan par is waqt muashray ki requirement hai because paisa uske hisab se banta hai, right? Um Pakistan ka GDP almost 30 to 40% agriculture hai. 6 lakh mein se 9,000 log sirf agriculture padhte hain. I mean that just to me it's mind numbing. Ke aapko to ek puri fauj padhe likhe agriculturist ki banani chahiye taake aap apni yields badha sakein aur quality badha sakein. Similarly aapki uh you know, engineering, problem solving, computer science, areas jo ke clearly have uh have a lot of workforce potential or at least had a lot of workforce potential uh you know, at least pre AI area ke andar. Um wahan par bade thode amount log hain. Bahut saare natural sciences padh rahe hain, jo ke mujhe maloom hai ke agar you know almost I think 26, 27% natural sciences padh rahe the, jo ke aise bache hain jo ke masters, PhD nahi pursue karenge, research nahi produce karenge. Um and therefore woh job ke liye agar aake math padh rahe hain, job ke liye aake biology padh rahe hain, to woh mere liye question mark hai because usmein applied kaam nahi hai, to woh bacha wahan se graduate karke kya karega? Right? So, it to me, at least from the outside, it seems like ke hamari jo puri education policy hai, woh bahut ad-hoc hai. Woh bas uh alag thalag chal rahi hai. Har banda apna kuch do dedh minute ki maze mein kuch kar raha hai. Um aur uski wajah se jo overall society hai, considering the the behemoth that Pakistan is with 250 million uh people, I feel like it's like a, you know, we are in Titanic and it's a huge iceberg and we don't realize ke aane wale waqt ki jo changes hain, usmein to hamara yeh talent jisko hum baar baar kehte hain ke hamara youth jo hai hamara sabse bada asasa hai, wohi aapka sabse bada potential challenge ban jayega jab uske paas na koi kaam karne ko hai. Uh you know, so is pure context ko madd-e-nazar rakhte hue as a starter, what is your understanding of the education system in Pakistan, um coming from the academia and the administration background? jis mein unhon ne bataya tha ke Pakistan ka jo economic survey tha 2024, 2025, yeh government ke adad-o-shumar hain, main bata raha hoon. Us mein Pakistan ki jo education ke upar spend tha that was listed at 0.8% of the GDP. Now, ab main is cheez ko bilkul understand karta hoon ke we are a developing nation and therefore we will not have enough money to spend in, you know, for education, health, so on and so forth relative to other developed economies. But within what we earn, hum us ka to ek percentage sizable laga sakte hain na agar hum serious hon us ke bare mein. On average jo aap ki Asian, Far East Asian economies hain, woh up to 5%, 3 to 5% woh apne GDP ka laga rahe hain on education, on on making sure that their, you know, children are skilled. Even though un ki jo young population hai woh marginally kam hai, kyunke wahan pe birth rate kam hai. Lekin they are still spending a lot of money to make sure that talent is properly trained. Pakistan mein it is 0.8%. It's like to me it was an it was a crazy number. And you know, we can talk all day about you know, education ka spend barhana chahiye, woh, lekin mere liye what that represented was the idea that the government does not really, seemingly, does not even care or does not even understand how important this is.
aap ne parha, dukhti rag ko chher diya. Dekhein 2002-3 mein jab main ne yeh Comsats join kiya tha, 90 universities were present in Pakistan. Ab main dekhoon to 270 universities ho gayi hain. Acha budget takreeban utna hi reh raha hai. Ab aap soch lijiyega budget ka, ab main thora sa us ko itna farq nahi para, bohat kam us ke andar. To ab jab is tarah resources ko dilute kiya, to us ke phir bohat sare buzmarat aur asraat bhi hote hain, qualities ke upar bhi, kyunke ab higher education ke teen hi main hote hain, un ka jo mandate hai, accessibility hai, quality hai, relevance hai, yeh teen char cheezein bari aur un ki priorities hoti hain. To accessibility barhane ki wajah se jab universities ke number barhe, budget nahi barha, to obviously phir quality kahin na kahin us ka challenges bhi face ho rahe hain. To aap ke liye baat is ko zaroor gradually dekhna bhi chahiye aur taake aur kyunke quality teachers ko retain karne ke liye aap ko budget bhi acha lana chahiye, lekin us ke sath sath ek aur cheez jo karni chahiye, kyunke hum jo invest karte hain research ke upar funds, to yeh bara carefully us ke upar hum ne jo aap ne priority areas bataye hain, un areas ke andar aur invest karke jo aap workforce tayar karte hain, to aap ko us ke outputs aur outcomes bohat zyada milte hain, dividend zyada milta hai. To ek encouraging environment hota hai and you feel like investing. Policy makers are also looking up to that as well, ke educationists aur universities deliver kya kar rahi hain. To is ka bhi aapas mein taluq hai aur industry ka bhi taluq hai. To thora sa is ke andar kaam karne ki bhi zaroorat hai aur is ka ek tareeqa to yeh bhi ho sakta hai ke aap you can identify provincial excellence universities, ek center, do le lijiye and convert them into a super research university. Get give them everything and find and create an ecosystem of top and notch scientists and workers so they can basically set an example and the rest of the universities can come and take advantage and work in those areas. Aap aur yeh ho raha hai west mein. Jis tarah main ne Russell University ki misaal di, UK ke andar, Ivy League aur super university US ke andar hai. Unhi ko woh fund dete hain aur technology transfer ka ek pura cycle hota hai aur woh cycle agar aap ko samajh mein aa jaye to aur us ecosystem ko hum agar adopt kar le ache se, woh us mein for example agar woh ek cycle saal ke andar 70 billion R&D ke upar lagate hain US dollar ya pounds, to woh us ke ek pura process hai invention disclosure ka, patent filing karne ka, patent accept hone ka, agar woh 5000 se shuru hote hain, 5000 patent pe aate hain, file hote hain, 2500, 2500 ke ja ke aap ko un ko market mein le ke aate hain, aap us ki innovation ko product mein le ke aate hain, startups banti hain, 5000 mein se 3000 startups bani to us ne koi millions of jobs generate ki aur is ko four times aap ki revenue generate kar diya. To yeh pura ek ecosystem hai jo develop hona hai yahan pe. To is ecosystem ke andar agar main pichle 25-30 saal mein Pakistan mein dekhoon to agar main UK aur US mein dekhta hoon to 8000, 7000, 6000 startup agar har saal bante hain to hamare yahan pure 20-25 saal mein 4000 ya 5000 aaye honge aur un mein se kitno ne paisa kamaya, we have to see that. Woh earn kaise kar rahe hain. To woh kuch thori si stories kam hain compared to the jo hamare paas volume hai. Lekin ek cheez aap ko aur bhi zehen mein rakhni hogi, hamare yahan is waqt higher education ke andar agar do-dhai million student hai to agar US ke andar dekhenge to 30-35 million students hoga, China mein 40 million student higher education mein hain aur us mein aksar log bahar se bhi jate hain. South Asia ke andar, UK ke andar agar aap dekhein to ek bara us ke andar bulge aa raha hai, ek acha brain wahan pe ja ke deliver bhi kar raha hai aur us ki wajah yahi ecosystem jo main ne aap ko kaha, technology ecosystem. To once we get that system in in place in this country, to they are amazing youth here, amazing brain sitting here who can basically deliver. So yeh ek chota sa ek system hai jis ke andar humein kaam karna hai aur develop karna hai.
Woh masla yeh hai ke main pichle 5 saal se main logon se baat kar raha hoon, mujhe sab yahi keh rahe hain ke there is amazing youth and amazing brain but us ka koi you know outcome unfortunately nahi aa pa raha and that's what I'm trying to sort of figure out as well. Um at some point main yeh bhi sochta hoon ke yaar theek hai, shayad government kar hi nahi sakti, matlab main kya un ka dindora peetoon ke yaar aap spending barha dein, aap yeh kar dein, woh kar dein. Shayad ek chaotic system jaisa Pakistan hai, wahan par itne saare nodes hain, itne saare log hain jin ko apne apne vested interests hain, ke shayad woh un sab ko ek jagah par le kar aana aur un se yeh expect karna ke woh long term 10, 15, 20 years ka ek vision bana ke kuch outcome generate karenge, woh shayad mushkil ho jata hai because everybody wants immediate returns and therefore education is something jo ke woh immediate returns nahi de pati. Pakistan unfortunately has the second highest outer, you know, rate of outer school children in the world in absolute terms as well as percentages. Um India jo hai woh 100 billion dollar se zyada annually spend karta hai apni education ke upar, India being roughly seven times our population and roughly 10 times our economy. Uh Pakistan 4 billion to 5 billion dollars kharch karta hai, 1/20th of India. Um again, agar hum proportionately dekhein to we should be sitting at least 10 to 20 billion dollars. Um so shayad ek point ke upar main thaka haar ke yeh kehta hoon ke yaar chalo government se to aas lagana fayda nahi hai. Um shayad jo third party ya private sector hai, mujh jaise log hain, woh shayad logon ko encourage kar sakte hain pehli fursat mein ja ke ke bhai education se fayda hota hai. You have stories, success stories, um jis se shayad at least ek demand side barh jaye from the average consumer side aur yeh main agar bataoon na demand side I think increase ho rahi hai. Even agar aap working class ko dekhein, aap ke jo blue collar worker hain, jo ke rural to urban migrate hua pichle 20-30 saalon ke andar, us ne kaafi us mein se aap ko aisi kahaniyan milengi, koi driver hoga, koi shopkeeper hoga, woh kahega main paanchvi chathi mein tha, main ghar se bhaag gaya ya main ne you know parhai chor di aur main kaam pe lag gaya. Phir jab woh shehar aaya aur shehar aa ke woh settle ho gaya to us ne zahir hai apne afsar ko dekha, babu ko dekha aur ab woh us ke meri bohat conversations hui hain Pakistan mein aur woh saare chahte hain, woh kehte hain nahi yaar main ne apne bache ko parhana hai. Masla yahi hai ke woh is khwab mein baitha hua hai kyunke woh afford to nahi kar sakta, to woh is khwab mein hai ke mera bacha jo hai na woh public school se graduate karega, phir main us ko kisi government university mein hopefully bhej doonga. Zahir hai seetein available itni nahi hain, 100 bache apply karenge us mein se 20 bache ja sakenge. To baaki 80 bache jo hain, woh are they condemned, are they doomed to blue collar, low value work for the rest of their lives and again isi tarah generations niklengi? Ya koi private sector potential intervention aisi aa sakti hai jis mein hum un logon ko um upskill kar sakte hain, hum un logon ko AI ready kar sakte hain, um and sath hi is mein jo component hai of critical thinking and problem solving, hum woh un ke andar inculcate kar sakte hain taake un ke andar ability to be able to self learn um some somehow barhna shuru ho jaye. How do you see the the alternate potential solutions um jo ke cost effective bhi hon, at scale bhi hon aur potentially um higher quality bhi hon, uh you know considering ke AI ki ab jo nayi technologies emerge kar rahi hain, us ko hum istemal kar sakte hain?
Nahi aap ne apne sawal ke andar hi jawab aakhir mein de diya. These hybrid models obviously can be one solution to reach uh to all those people who are remotely sitting, even the rural economies. Main us ki misaal aap ko deta hoon, Pakistan mein yeh small and medium enterprises, SMEs, uh one of the least attended sector hai but they are offering outside the agriculture takreeban 40% aap ke GDP mein contribute karta hai aur 78% outside the agriculture workforce deta hai. Aap imagine karein if the students who have been trained in these small areas, jo aap ki choti district level pe rural economies mein baithe hue hain, agar woh train karke aur educate karke koi ek ya do startup aur innovation develop kar dete hain along with these jo ke bilkul is waqt uh control kar rahe hain, jo kam parhe likhe log hain. To aap imagine karein ke woh kahan se kahan pahunch jayega aur woh wahi gigs economy hogi, choti choti techniques and technologies and skills hain, jo un ko short term. Is mein ab government ne matric tech ke kuch courses ka bhi karne ki koi yeh matric ke baad aap ko un ko kuch technology ke courses sikha dein aur yeh workforce ab agar ache se tayar ho jati hai to mujhe umeed hai ke yeh is taraf apna role ada kar sakenge aur sath mein phir main ne jis tarah kaha ke degree plus ka daur hai, skills ke sath sath degree ke sath sath aap ne skills bhi dikhani hai. To ab aap jis tarah main aap Singapore ki misaal le lijiye, Singapore bhi ek chota sa country hai, un ke andar jo workforce tayar ki jati hai, unhein pata hota hai ke unhon ne un ka blueprint tayar hai, jis tarah un ke DNA mein har gene ka functions hota hai na protein ka aur un ke har individual ka function hai. That's the kind of a nation basically do know ke mujhe itne percentage is area mein chahiye, itne percentage is area mein workforce ke chahiye, to usi tarah se planning bhi karte hain, prioritize bhi karte hain aur invest bhi karte hain. Then in that invest leads to a remarkable us ka dividend milta hai aur top innovation country hai is waqt. To us ke andar agar ab yeh thori si planning jis tarah aap farma rahe hain, long term 15, 20, 30 saal ki kar li jaye, then it will be obviously a something which can be a rewarding aur us mein hum hum baghair us ke na as a qaum saare us ke peeche khare hon aur us ko deliver kar sakein aur un usi hisab se hum ne shuru mein tay kar liya agar agriculture aur livestock ki economy top priority hai to let's uh bio economies ke upar focus karein, agar AI aur computer science ko hum ne apna is ko agle 20 saal, 30 saal ke andar, 40 saal ke andar to is ko invest karein aur yeh jo brain power hai is ko use karein aur integrate karein AI ko in each and every field in order to develop a prediction models which can change the shape of your economy in future as well. To woh aap ke main ne jis tarah kaha ek main ek choti si misaal aap ko is ki deta hoon, yeh patents jo hote hain, yeh patents ke andar dekhein there is a 3.5 billion history of living creature on this earth which residue and carry the memory in the form of a DNA blueprint. Us ne bohat saare utaar charhao dekhein hain aur woh jo DNA hai woh in the form of thousands of species is a gold mine for the west. Woh us ko use kar raha hai aur us ke natije mein woh beshumar energy ki products, biofuels, biomedicine, pharmaceuticals mein revolution la raha hai aur AI aur robotics ka main ne jis tarah kaha, yeh us ko processes ko jo millions of permutation processes hain, us optimize kar rahe hain processes ko within a system in order to give you a best results. So this this is where the technologies aur is ko hum ne sochna hai aage 50 saalon mein ke yeh different disciplines aapas mein kaise kaam karte hain aur hum ne workforce ko bhi usi tarah se tayar karna hai. To ek aadmi jo ek khas product bana raha hai kisi company mein baith ke agar us ko yeh ek choti si skills sikha di jaye to it won't take much time aur us ke andar koi high five degree ki bhi zaroorat nahi hogi aap ko. Aap keh rahe hain na ke degrees chahiye, aap ko ek skill chahiye, system chahiye and that's all. You need to basically ek industry khari kar sakte hain understanding those processes aur us mein synthetic biology ek woh area hai jis ne aap ke yeh saari duniya jahan ke jo species hain, blueprints hain, is ke ek ek fragment ko use karke products banate hain aur yeh trillion dollar industry hai. Isi tarah aane wale dino mein jo challenges ko bhi bara zaroori hai samajhna. Ab agar aap ne economy khari karni hai to mujhe 20 saal baad kya challenges aa rahe hain to woh mere liye opportunities hain if I understand them properly. For example mujhe pata hai ke is waqt health ke hawale se jo drug resistance ke challenge hain, drug discovery ke pipeline hai woh bohat slow hai aur antimicrobial resistance will be a leading problem in next few years time. 100 trillion dollar ka loss hoga, 10 million ke qareeb deaths hone wali hai. This is the trend which is showing. Are we working on that area where the bioinformatics ka area main ne jo shuru mein kaha can play a vital role agar us ke sath industry ko jor diya jaye, agar us ko hum thora sa prioritize kar diya jaye us ke andar. To yeh do char cheezein aisi hain jis ke andar aur bhi kaam kiya. Yeh main ne ek misaal di hai, isi tarah robotics ki industry hai, is tarah engineering ke bohat saare challenges hain, cyber security ke challenges hain, weather extremes ko kaise deal karna hai, aap ne apni resilient crops kaise banani hai, food security aur nutrition ke bohat bare challenges hain, aap ko yeh malnutrition ka main ne abhi zikr kar diya. To in ko address karna hai. Pakistan ne pichle 10-15 saalon mein agar main dekhoon to 150 ke qareeb extreme weather shocks sahe hain jis se us ki GDP takreeban 1% .7% loss hui hai. To yeh trillions of dollars jo hum apna dekh rahe hote hain aane wale waqton mein jo lose ho sakte hain, un challenges pe nazar rakhein. To number one is waqt jo SDGs ka aap ka agar dekhte hain report to us mein kehte hain ji number eight jo hai na decent workforce. Saari duniya mein keh rahe hain ke decent workforce will be the number one priority. Then the climate change hoga, third one is a consumption aap kaise karenge jo aap ka SDG number 12 hai. To yeh teen char priorities hain to in ko dekhte hue bhi challenges ko aap opportunities talash karein aur us ke hawale se apne sectors ko aur mazboot karein aur educational workforce bhi unhi areas mein tayar karein. I'm sure you will be able to solve those challenges. At least tayar kar sakte hain, real life problems ko solve kar sakte hain aur yeh sikha bhi sakte hain aur aur ache ustad ka yahi kaam hai ke bacho ko woh woh aur ek aur kaam jo university schools ke sath bhi connect ho jaye to bara acha ek ecosystem ban jata hai. University ka ustad agar exposure de de, hum recently hum ne apni laboratory mein bache kisi gaon dehaton ke laye to they were mesmerized to see the new world. Yeh kaha kis tarah ki laboratory hai, Pakistan mein aisi facilities bhi hain ke nahi hain. This is the kind of a thing which we should frequently do in order to expose those children coming from public schools, government far flung areas to un ko ek tarah ki excitement aur thora sa opportunities aur excitement. So this is another area to give them a you know future kaise nazar aana chahiye, kaun se areas hain. To this can also be done.
Makes sense. Uh Habib sahab, I'm at the one hour minute mark so I'm going to wrap this up. Just want to get a final thought from you. Um generally main tamam guest se poochta hoon but I'm curious to know you went to the UK obviously for your education then eventually you went to the US as well. You've been around and about now. Um ek to yeh ke you chose to come back to Pakistan. My understanding is ke yes there will be a part of it jo ke I think wahan pe Commonwealth or Fulbright ka to you have to come back and and serve your country. There's that component as well. Uh but woh ek certain time ke liye hota hai. I'm sure with with your uh you know set of experiences and profile, you could have easily relocated to a lot of other countries. Yet you chose to stay in Pakistan. I'm curious considering ke aaj kal ke halaat kaafi Pakistan ke nazuk hi rahe hain pichle do teen saalon se aur barha hum yeh sunte hain ke log jo hain woh chor ke bahar jana chahte hain, woh relocate karna chahte hain and for good reason. I mean I wouldn't blame them as well. Uh things are very turbulent. How do you feel about Pakistan right now? What's your feeling and opinion? And how do you see Pakistan 25, 24 years from now in 2050? Um kyunke again mera hamesha yeh hota hai ke I try to look at things in a long term horizon and jab aap long term mein dekhte hain na to jo spikes hoti hain na woh miniscule lagna shuru ho jati hain, irrelevant lagna shuru ho jati hain because trend phir zyada important hota hai ke agar woh even if spikes aa rahi hain agar woh trend upside hai to you know you you know there is you know you can hold off for that for that matter. How do you see Pakistan today and how do you see Pakistan 24 years from now?
Uh as I said that jo aap ne shuru mein kaha ke opportunities jab main wahan pe tha, we do get a postdoc position and once you stay there for a couple of years postdoc you can get easily nationality. That was a rule at that time aur aap ke bacho ko bhi nationality and us waqt ka yeh time tha aur jab aap ko mil sakti hai but as I said earlier ke jis tarah se mera trajectory aur growth thi from a government school and all those motivation, inspiration from parents and all that that never you know woh us ko kamzor nahi hui kabhi. That's one of the reason which you know you are wanted to come back and always uh try to deliver back in whatever capacity you can do. To woh ek bara strong hamara woh tha connection. Ek to reason ke is mulk ne bohat kuch humein diya, tayar kiya aur us ke baad phir parents ke sath ek jo family ka bond hota hai aur woh bara ahem tha jo mujhe wahan wapas le ke aaya. Baad mein bhi opportunity mili lekin us ko main ne is tarah se fulfill kiya jo main ne aap se zikr kiya, main postdoc karta raha, phir I have been able to reach to the highest position jo mere kader mein aa sakti thi. I'm currently also serving as an advisor to the Gates Foundation ke kuch projects hain jo Africa ke andar AMR ke hawale se hain, trials ke hawale se hain, based on all those credential which I gather from these top universities. Unhon ne mere linkages itne ache kiye, karwaye logon ke sath ke then I can act as an expert. Commonwealth scholar of alumni jo aap ka panel hai us ke advisor ka role aaj kal mere paas kuch saalon se hoga, teen char saal ke liye wahan main apna role ada karta hoon. And Pakistan Science Foundation ke andar main apna ek role board of trustee ke member ke tor pe jo de sakta hoon. As a evaluator, Fulbright ke evaluators ke tor pe, USCFP ke sath kaafi kaam kiya, UK ki embassies ke sath, bohat sara British Council ke sath kaam karta rehta hoon. To in one way or other way main dono jo hai na environment ko enjoy kar leta hoon, apna mujhe woh saara opportunities mil bhi jati hain. Acha dusra aap ne kaha ab is waqt main apne bacho ko bhi kehta hoon, if you get an opportunity to find a place abroad apni marzi karein. I do not force them. I do not ask them to come back or I do not ask them to but deep down I wanted these guys to deliver back as well. Yeh meri apni khwahish hoti hai parents ki, aap ko pata hai jahan parents hain aur wahan bache bhi hon, woh ek stage aati hai but ab hum ne un ko par laga diye hain, parwaz woh karein jahan tak ja sakte hain, jitna kuch ilm hasil karein aur jitna kuch deliver kar sakte hain but at the end of the day jab woh itne skillful ho jaye aur agar woh deliver kar sakte hain mulk ko to is se achi cheez kuch bhi nahi ho sakti na. This is where the payback time because this is the early jo early career hai, is ko jitna mazboot kar le, sab foundations ko acha kar le, jitne aap ko mawaqe aur opportunities milti hain aur aap apne balbote pe le lete hain to behtareen cheez hai and all that. Aur baaki ab I see that dekhein is waqt challenges hamesha se rahe hain. Main to jab se dekhein aap ko pichle 25 saal, 20 saal se been seeing all those challenges different times ke upar mukhtalif challenges aap ko milte rahe hain. Par un challenges ke sath adapt kar lena, un challenges ke sath survive karna that's also a top skill. So I always see that as an opportunity or
skill there aur yeh skills bhi seekhni hoti hain. In skills ke saath bhi rehna hota hai aur apne aap ko adapt bhi karna hai aur contribute karna hai. And positivity is something which we can promote always in order to motivate the youth so that they can productively contribute in whatever area they are working in and we are as a role models, humein toh iske andar laghzish bilkul bhi nahi aani chahiye as a role model, as a teacher. That's where basically we have to be very you know steadfast in terms of in our opinion aur uske andar hum apna jo taleem ke saath aur research ke saath aur delivery ke saath talluq hai toh uske saath hum bada connect rehte hain. But aapne jis tarah kaha education sector, health sector uske upar khusoosi tawajo dene ki zaroorat hai aur consistently dene ki zaroorat hai. Yeh woh areas hain jiske upar consensus bhi hai aur quality teachers ko retain karne ke liye kuch facilities bhi deni hain, kuch ecosystem bhi create karna hai, kuch strong systems bhi build karne hain based on meritocracy, purely meritocracy, nothing and you know and the transparency. Toh woh woh woh cheezein thodi si humein behtar karne ki zaroorat hai aur woh systems jo governance aur ke system hain, strong systems hain, woh one of the pillars hain west ke andar bhi unko lead karwane ke andar kyunke unke systems mein yeh cheezein inbuilt hoti hain aur woh cheezein humein bhi improve karni hain, behtar karni hain, uske upar kaam bhi karna hai. Toh this is I see ke down the road agar yeh cheezein achi hongi toh humein productive results aur ache milenge inshaAllah. Makes sense. Naveed sahab, thank you so much for taking the time out and sharing all that insight. Lovely talking to you. InshaAllah, I'll see you soon sometime in Pakistan. Bahut acha laga aap se baat karke aur badi provocative questions aapka sessions jo hai, I've heard. Aapki ek toh hoti hai teachers ki fan following, main aapko aakhri cheez thodi si batata jaaun. Main jo sarkari schoolon mein padhta tha na toh there was a volunteerism. Ustaad jo the woh cycle pe aate the aur bachon ko free mein padha dete the. Then I moved to the colleges ke andar, government college mein aaya toh academies aur tuitions ka waqt tha. Unki fan following nazar aati thi, bikes, motorbikes aur cycles tuition pe aa rahe hain, kitna kitna bada teacher hai. Now I see the people who are sitting on a social media, their fan followings is much bigger than that. So they can also promote positivity aur achi cheezon ko promote karke bahut acha kaam kar sakte hain. Lovely talking to you. Thank you sir, thank you so much. And for all of you guys, let me know in the comment section below what are your thoughts on Pakistan's education. Aane wale waqt mein kaunsi fields potentially emerge karengi? Aapko kya lag raha hai ke Pakistan 2050 tak kaisa hoga? Uh, would love to know all of your thoughts in the comment section below. Uh, but this was Syed Muzammil Hassan Zaidi. You are watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.
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