The Ericsson CEO who still lives in his village

शायद हमारा ख़बाद है ना साथ. Welcome back to another episode of ThoughtBandThink that हमारे समाजूद ने एक बहुत ही ख़बाद मेहमान जिनको बुराने से पहले actually मैंने एक मुलाकात की इनसे. उनकी team ने setup की और you know बड़ा I mean one of the most fascinating minds I've met in recent times. मैं ऐसे नहीं बोल रहा. आपके पास podcast सारी पड़ी हुई हैं. मैं हर किसी के बारे में ऐसे नहीं बोलता. So I'm personally very very excited about this episode, about what we're going to unpack here because and and really learn कि how does one end up becoming the sort of person that he's become. Not just in terms of the career and the and the experiences but also, life में, philosophy में, understanding में वह किस तरह से होता है? Would love to expand that. आज हमारे से मौजूद है. आमिर आसान खान, is that the right pronunciation? That is correct. He is the CEO and president of Ericsson Pakistan. Sir, thank you so much for being part of the show.

क्योंकि शायद इसके लिए काफ़ी वक़्त निकालना पड़ेगा उन्हें. मेरी जो बुनियादी तरबीयत और सारा मेरा बड़ा होना था वह था जी, Zilatek के गांव में और रश्ति और surprising बात यह है कि मैं अभी भी वहीं पर रहता हूं. अच्छा. जी and I commute daily. I am one of those dinosaurs

you can call me that जो दिन को तो अपनी corporate life एक शहर के अंदर गुज़ाता है और शाम को मैं गांव वापस चला जाता हूं. But it's very interesting because and यहां पर मुझे पता है comment section में लोग आकर बोलेंगे कि मुज़मिल भाई आप शहरी जो है ना वह हमें stereotype करते हैं but एक एक understanding understandable सी बात है media भी उसी तरह play करता है but the idea that a small town boy

is going to end up being the the CEO of Erickson is a fascinating idea. मेरे दिमाग में इस तरह आएगा कि यार मैंने high school वहां तक किया, फिर मैं main city में move हो गया फिर क्योंकि हर एक चीज़ होती है कि चलो education के लिए तो आप चले जाते हैं जहां भी जाना है. But it's who you are surrounded with that helps you understand कि वो वाले areas किस तरह काम करते हैं, क्या करना है, how do you maneuver through all of that, all of that. So you are still living in the house that you were born in essentially and. That is correct. It's almost the same house that we have been living for last seven generations. उतना पुराना नहीं है. हम time के साथ उसे थोड़ा मोड़ना से Ok, करते good, good. लेकिन it's actually the same house that we have been living for last seven generations. अच्छा ज़बरदस्त. तो फिर school आपने कहां से किया? तो school के लिए I went to कामरा गांव के अंदर कोई उतना अंग्रेज़ी medium जिसे school कहते हैं वह था नहीं. सही है. तो initially एक दो साल मैंने गांव के school में पढ़ा और उसके बाद I went to कामरा. So I went to air force school in कामरा. And how how far away was that? So जो हमारा गांव है that was at the most farthest point from कामरा. तो हमें गाड़ी सबसे पहले उठाया करती थी सुबह और सबसे आख़िर में drop किया करती थी so it used to take like one and a half hour. Each way? Each way. And this was like a van जो आपने रखी थी? It was like a van जी जिसके अंदर वह फटे लगे होते थे और उसके ऊपर दोनों तरफ students बैठा करते थे. तो जो पहला मुझे treatment हुई वह यह हुई कि I was in prep. Right. And जो मेरी exams वगैरह हुए तो मैं अपने वाले साहब के साथ गया और final day के ऊपर. तो जो principal थी उसने side पर करके कहा कि ideally तो असल में ski position number one आई है लेकिन हमें थोड़ी सी Adjustment के अंदर. तो

जो officers के बचे हैं वह number one पर आऐंगे. That was a lesson for me in life. Sometimes you have to get to terms with the reality as well. Yeah and at such a young age. जी जी जी you know because हो बच्चा सकता would be like कि why? वो तो पैर logical होता ना ना वहाँ. Exactly exactly. कि कि भाई है तो है लेकिन you had to reconcile with that. Exactly. And and and generally how was that experience?

School how would you rank it? यार it was a good experience in the sense कि I would say जो crowd था that was very decent. Officers के बच्चे उस point of view से सीखने का बहुत कुछ मिला और उसके साथ साथ जो teachers थे वो बड़े अच्छे थे. अच्छा. बड़े main थी I would say, discipline was the first thing और उसके साथ साथ subjects के ऊपर, बाकी चीज़ों के ऊपर बड़ा focus था. एक और चीज़ जो मुझे वहां पर बड़ी पसंद थी वह यह थी कि आपकी extracurricular activities के ऊपर focus होता था. तो sports हो गई, dramatics हो गई, speech वगैरह हो गई. वो सब के ऊपर. तो it was a very good balance I would say. Well rounded personalities निकलने थी. And in terms of the officers were these like all like high ranking officers या वहां पर जो है up and downs? It was a mix. So in our class I remember कि हमारे पास एक normal airman का बच्चा भी था और साथ ही MD का बच्चा भी पढ़ रहा था. अच्छा and everybody was friends? Everybody was friend. Yes. That's I

mean I think one of the things जो कि मैंने जब भी मैं air force या army schools वाले लोगों से बात करता हूँ तो that's one thing जो कि I think the most profound effect for us was the equality in terms of that education that we were getting like outside world is full of that inequality. It is. I think that's a very fascinating thing right? क्योंकि

अगर आप ज़िंदगी को भी इस तरीके से देखें कि आपके कंधों के ऊपर तारी लगे हैं, it becomes sometimes very difficult. लेकिन जब वह आप तारे उतार देते हैं ना, तो then maybe you have a chance to understand the person behind the stars as well And maybe it becomes bigger inspiration. तो I still remember कि वहां पर कभी कभी MD जो स्वागत थे, वहां पर factory के, I think who was the most senior ranking officer. He would come himself with his wife. वह हम सबसे मिला करते थे, बातचीत हुआ करती थी. So it was one of those very fond memories that I have which I thoroughly enjoyed. ज़बरदस्त.

So you graduate high school in what year?

So I did that in 2000. 2000, FSE? FSE.

And उसके बाद education like कहां पर apply किया? किस सोच So पर apply

so the interesting fact is कि मेरे जो चचाएं हैं he went to Miguel. अच्छा

और. That must be required a while ago. It was, it was. Because अब तो यह लोग पहली काफी attack Ninety six hours.

लेकिन वो कहते हैं ना Pakistan में जब बच्चा पैदा होता है तो उसके पास तीन choices होती हैं. या उसने engineer बनना है या उसने doctor बनना है और या उसने failure बनना है. Right. ठीक है? और northern side के ऊपर ज़ेदा नाम का एक गांव है तो वहां पर हमारे रिश्तेदार होते थे और हम travel करके जाया करते थे through तरबेला and passing through टोपी as well. Right. ठीक है? और उस वक्त गुलामेसा खान जो university है वह वहां पर बनी GIK. Final year के अंदर twelfth grade के अंदर आप naturally explore करना शुरू करते हैं कि कहां पर जाना है क्या करना है. And I still remember there was a mathematics teacher. वह usually सारे लोगों को पढ़ाया करती थी tuition वगैरह भी. So that was a reality check for me. उसकी वजह यह है कि जो passing grade थे GI की entrance के लिए that was 60%, right? ठीक है. और मुझे eleventh grade के अंदर I actually got malaria. अच्छा. And that severely affected my memory. Oh. ठीक है? तो eleventh grade के अंदर I hardly could secure 60%. I lost all motivation that was there. So my only target was just to secure 60% and sit in the exam.

Interesting. But I mean so she was basing it entirely on your result?

She was basing entirely on where I was coming from.

अच्छा उन्होंने दिमाग में बनाया हुआ था कि ये तो ठीक है again वह एक उन्होंने एक perception बनाया हुआ था कि इस तरह का बच्चा तो इधर ही जाएगा तो ज़्यादा खाब ना सोचो भाई. Exactly. Why do you And this is I mean this is so prevalent in Pakistan. We constantly telling everyone why you dreaming? Exactly exactly and and I think in a way it is good because I think you need to have a good balance of being grounded in reality but also have a good inspiration. Yeah. Yeah. तो

अगर कोई बंदा आपको यह कहता है कि आप यह नहीं कर सकते मेरे लिए हमेशा वह source of inspiration होती है तब उसके बाद सवाल ये था कि आप entry test की तैयारी कैसे करें? तो फिर मेरी फुफो होती हैं पिंडी में वेस्टरिज में. So we found out academy जहां पे वो entry test की तैयारी करवाते थे. And I remember मुज़मिल that was the very first time I lived in a city for a month. और वह academy जाकर तैयारी करनी सारी. तो फिर उसके बाद मैंने नस्त में apply किया. I applied in FAST. I applied in GIK. अच्छा. And then I got admission actually in all three all three को शायद मेरा ख़याला वह पोपो ने कहा होगा यह अच्छा है इसका तीनों जगह हो जाए तो यह चला जाए अपने घर में लेकिन on a serious note मेरा ख़याला उनकी कुछ दुआएं थी कुछ अलग ताला की मेहरबानी थी तो that was a surprise for me as well. And you chose GIK obviously because I I chose, history there as it was close frankly और उसके साथ साथ at that point in time it was a source of inspiration for me. I I had visited three institutes लेकिन I found GIK to be a bit different. JIK you were doing as a day scholar? Were you at that time we did not have any day scholars. So everyone had to stay there. Irrespective

of कितना करीब घर है आपके शहर उसके campus के अंदर ही रहना है. Course आपका computer software engineering, engineering. Why did you choose that? Because again this is 2000 and anyone in their right mind I mean but at the time would think कि यार petroleum कर लेते हैं you know RAM को शायद RAM को का बड़ा scene है. Telecom तो ख़ैर was maybe four five years ahead. उसके बाद I think आया था boom जब यह सारे खुले थे मुश्रफ़ साहब के time पर but mechanical, electrical even मैं आपको बताऊं मैंने दो हज़ार दस में essentially admission लिया था और फिर ग्यारह में properly start किया था took a year off after that. हमारे यहां batch आता था fast में let's say ढाई सौ लोगों का. उसमें से तीस से पैंतीस बच्चे होते थे जो कि computer science करने आते थे. ऐसे. बाकी अब किसी से पूछते थे कहते हैं यार mechanical में apply किया नहीं हुआ तो आप धक्के खाते वेदर आ गए हैं. Because nobody had this idea. वह तो अब यह कि ten years later अब वह एक एक market में finally वह एक scope का हवा बनाएं कि यार computer science वाले लोग बड़े तो वह दो हज़ार में आपके दिमाग में कैसे आया क्या मैंने?

So I think it actually goes back to when I was in f s e. तो f s e के अंदर we at that time computer science was very new to an extent कि हमें किताबें भी नहीं मिलती थी computer science की और एक हमारे रिश्तेदार होते थे इस्लाम बाल से उनसे को मैंने तरला करके second hand किताब हमें मिली थी मुझे पढ़ने के लिए. तो the decision was कि आपने engineering choose करनी है या bio choose करनी है. Right? And and I was actually good in sciences. तो bio के साथ मेरा एक तिलाफ यह था कि मेरा दिमाग जिस तरीके से काम करता है वह यह है कि I have to understand concepts. I enjoy understanding concepts. Biology के अंदर the first day she told me कि आपको सारी चीज़ें याद करनी पड़ेगी. And that is the most difficult thing for me. Right. And the other alternative was actually computer science. So when I enrolled myself into computer science, the thing that I discovered about is कि the cost of creating or implementing any concept is very low. Mhmm. You just need a computer and you need time to learn a language. Right? So वहां पर FSC के अंदर उन्होंने हमें Fortran उस वक्त होती थी. They taught us that and I could actually see कि मैं सारे formulas और चीज़ों के अंदर लिख के I could arrive at a conclusion very easily. उसके बाद एक और चीज़ जो मुझे वहां पर पसंद आई, that was, logic and linked with it is algorithms. The way it is done, the whole language, binary and everything fascinated me. Mhmm. And that is, think, the first time I actually simply said कि I would do computer science. And उसमें I think at its heart and core is the fundamental concept of problem solving. It is ok

for a lot of people that just sort of clicks because they they have that personality and for the first time that personality is actually provided to them in a very structured way कि यार यह problem है उसको solve करने के लिए उसको ones and zeros में आपने किसने breakdown करना है to actually come to the logical conclusion? Exactly exactly.

So that was very clear for me. So and that was the reason कि I actually ended up. मेरा ख़याला कुछ शायद उस वक़्त, लोगों की demand ज़्यादा होगी electronics, mechanical की. तो मेरे जैसे जो लोग हैं बचकर उन्होंने computer science में जाना था. Maybe that is also reason. And and so you started in 2000. You graduate in 2004. That is correct. How was the G I K experience? G I K experience,

was it as everything you dreamed of? Oh,

wish. So, दो हज़ार में when I went into G I K, तो I come from a family which is family of farmers. Right. ठीक है? अब admission तो हो गया लेकिन हमारे पास पैसे नहीं हैं admission fee देने के. Right. ठीक है? And JIK is a fairly expensive GIK that time was. Yeah. And it still is. It still is, right? तो मुझे अभी भी याद है कि डेढ़ लाख fees थी एक साल की. दो हज़ार में? जी जी जी. दो हज़ार में. Oh my god. ठीक है? And that actually means चार साल के अंदर छह लाख रुपया. ठीक है? I still remember and I actually carry that thing with me कि मेरे वालिद साहब को, छह लाख रुपया की ज़मीन बेचनी पड़ी for my education. अच्छा. And for a farmer to sell a piece of land is like you're selling part of your body. Yeah, yeah. It is something like this, right? So that was where I started और अब मेरा दाखला हो गया और सारे गांव को पता है कि मैं जा रहा हूं. गांव से पहला बंदा है जो जा रहा है J I K. हाँ. ठीक है? Right. ठीक है? तो the first day when I went there, I actually realized कि मेरे साथ 80 to 90% of the people are from A levels, from big cities. Right. और उनका जो बात करने का तरीका है वह सब कुछ है बड़ा मुख्तलिफ है. Right, thought process ही फ़र्क़ है. Totally different है. So first year answering your question was anything like excruciating

pain. अच्छा. ठीक है? What was the percentage of let's say A levels versus because अगर मैं अपने उसमें देखूं fast में तो it was more मेरे time पर it was more of a 3% इस्लामाबाद और big city a levels. Mhmm. And 97%, you know, Peri urban, second universities, FSC. The connectivity basically what I'm trying to say is connectivity by my time had had become so so much better कि पूरा Pakistan अब universities के लिए भेज रहा था बच्चों को.

GIK के अंदर and I know दो दो हज़ार ग्यारह के GIK में भी काफी हद तक यह situation थी कि पूरे Pakistan से DI खान थे इधर उधर से हर जगह से लोग आ रहे थे. तो आपके time पर ratio कैसा था? यार ratio I think from geography perspective it was very well spread. तो हमारे साथ गिलगित के लोग भी थे, बलूचिस्तान के भी थे, सिन्न के भी थे. लेकिन अगर मैं percentage की बात करूँ from A level to FSC तो it was almost like 60 to 70% A level and remaining FSC. अच्छा. And again this is a time जब A levels में बहुत ही class जाती थी. जी exactly. अब तो बहुत mass market हो गया उसी तरह से. जी जी जी जी. So I still remember the first year के मुझे डरिए था कि पता नहीं मेरा 2GP आएगा कि नहीं आएगा? Because two was the passing. अगर दो से कम आए तो आपकी probation आती थी. तो I think I hardly made it to 2.1. अच्छा. जी. And I still remember कि in in the first year it all became very unbearable for me, ठीक है? Understanding the the circumstances and everything. And do you think a a large part of your performing

or your poor performance in terms of academic performance was because you couldn't understand the concepts or do you think there was a lot of pressure, sociological and mental pressure because of this environment? It both.

So it was जो एक सबसे बड़ी हम गलती करते हैं ना जब हम ये कहते हैं कि आप fail नहीं हो सकते तो आप जो cost of trying है या barrier of trying है उसे बहुत ऊपर कर देते हैं. Right. ठीक है? तो कोई भी बंदा गलती करने का सोचता भी नहीं है. So anything that you do या दो रातें पहले तैयारी करो और उसके बाद अगले दिन exam दे दो. Right. तो I think it was लेकिन second and third year onwards then I started improving because then I understood the concept. Right. And it reached a point कि चौथे साल के अंदर I was actually taking courses of masters as well. अच्छा. जी, but I think it was only because I understood the concept and there was something which changed in me. हमारे एक psychology के professor होते थे वहां पर और उन्होंने एक दिन मुझे बुलाया और उन्होंने कहा कि यह जो तुम शलवार कमी पहनते हो ना, जब तुम corporate में जाओगे, बड़े मज़ाक से तो तुमने ऊपर suit पहना होगा, अंदर से शलवार कमी से निकल आएगी. And I think I actually reached a point कि यार, who have I been dressing up for? Uh-huh. Right? I mean, eventually it's better to be who you are. Yeah. So, and I think that taught me a lesson कि irrespective of whatever you do, people are still going to judge you. Yeah. Right? So, I mean that is their job. Let them do that. लेकिन जो आप कर सकते हैं वह यह है कि focus on what is more important and valuable for you. And I started focusing on my studies and everything else. Mhmm. और I think उसके बाद एक और चीज़ जो हुई वह यह भी थी कि वाले साहब ने मुझे कहा कि यार इतनी भी परेशानी की ज़रूरत नहीं ख़ैर है. Calm down. कहते हैं मैंने budget के अंदर एक आधी probation की हुई है तो मैंने कहा जी ठीक है वह budget बच गया अब probation नहीं होगी. ज़बरदस्त. Last

question around your academic time. ज़ाहिर यह start में आप गए होंगे. There must be a lot of difference in terms of A levels versus FSC and so on and so forth. चार साल गुज़ारने के बाद being in topy obviously एक sort of, social bond आपका बनी जाता है. It's sort of almost like a military का जिस तरह से होता है ना जायराब के एक brotherhood type situation होती है. How was it like for you? Did you make lifelong friends there? How did that convert in terms of क्योंकि Pakistan में यह चीज़ बहुत ज़्यादा है. हम देखते हैं, हम देखकर उसके साथ judge करते हैं. हम अपने वह बना देते हैं. पठान अपना बैठा होगा, उर्दू speaking अपना बैठा हुआ होगा या were you able to break through that sort of that that that crowd that you didn't understand and how was the social situation by the end of the four years? So

initially पहले दिन जब हम गए तो वहां पर वह ragging होती है. That's a tradition, right? मुझे याद है कि मेरी ragging बड़ी कम हुई थी and I, when I look back on it, people were wondering as well कि यार यह alien कहां से आ गया, right? हां. लेकिन उसके बाद I actually realized कि on the face of it अगर लोग यह दिखाते भी हैं ना कि उनको problems नहीं हैं, end of the day हम सारे students को problems बड़े similar थे. ठीक है? So I reached out to people on my own and I also made sure मुज़मिल कि I don't limit it only to students. तो चाहे वहाँ पे waiter होते थे या हमारा supervisor होता था या कोई भी होता था, I made sure I connect with those people. और शायद इसमें बुनियादी किरदार मेरी गाँव की तरबीयत का था क्योंकि गाँव के अंदर आपको और जिन जिन लोगों के ऊपर शक था ना faculty को, उनको उन्होंने बुलाकर individually investigate किया था. And that was a really interesting experience क्योंकि मुझे याद है मुझे जब dean ने बुलाया और उन्होंने कहा जी कि कहां से हो तुम? एक और जो benefit मुझे था हमारी माध्री ज़मान हिंद को है. So with हिंद को we can actually relate to पंजाबी as well, उर्दू as well and पश्तो too. Right. So from that perspective you are somewhere in the middle. Exactly.

Interesting. So you graduate 2004 and you know probably celebrated कि यार बेटा finally जाए graduate कर गाड़ा आगे. Did you immediately start लोगों for work? ज़ाहिर एक pressure तो होगा you are the oldest son I believe and so छे लाख रुपए की ज़मीन बेची है. मैंने अल्बा जी को वापस देना है you know I need और to make

वो आपके ऊपर pressure होता है कि अब नौकरी कितने time में मिलेगी right? तो आप दो हज़ार चार में हमारा convocation हुआ था in August So the first thing I did was I applied for becoming a teaching assistant in GIK and I actually got that. So it's the same faculty जो एक दिन पहले आपको पढ़ा रही थी, now they are sitting there and doing your interview. So the next one and a half year I was doing teaching assistant. In parallel I was preparing for CSS as well. अच्छा. तो गांव से निकल के इससे बड़ी क्या बात होगी कि engineering भी कर ली और CSS के अंदर अवसर है बच्चा तो फिर तो तल्लुक भी है सब कुछ है, right? And that is 2004. Thanks to मुशहरफ़ साहब कि वह जो है हमारी जो bureaucracy है उसको side पर करते हैं और फौज के कुछ अवसरों को ऊपर लगा देते हैं और एक शाम मैं वापस आया तो मुझे वाले साहब कहते यार तुमने वह ख़बर देखी है क्या हुआ है? मैंने कहा जी क्या हुआ है? और फिर one fine morning अगर अज़ीज़ा मत ना होगा तो क्या होगा? And that I think that is where I decided कि नहीं I should go back into the field what I have studied and that is when I decided कि मुझे शायद इस्लामाबाद में आना है क्योंकि टोपी में रहकर interviews और उस वक्त तो online चीज़ें नहीं होती थी. आपको दफ्तरों की reception पर जाकर CV drop करनी होती थी and that is when I actually came to international इस्लामic university. I started teaching here. अच्छा. With the intention कि मैं यहां पर पढ़ाऊंगा and in parallel I will start looking for a job. And you were teaching as a teaching assistant? I was teaching as a in j I k I was teaching as a teaching assistant over here I was a lecturer in islamic university. अच्छा. I think hc ने उसके बात किया था because I remember my brother used to teach us well in different universities. Fast में ही पढ़ाया सारा कुछ. अब I think minimum आपको masters चाहिए होता है that is correct PhD चाहिए and पता नहीं क्या situation है that's sort of really sad because

अब बहुत सारे लोग जो industry में बैठे होते हैं they are not very academic people right they don't have an interest in getting like a ठप्पा of a masters degree true वो जा रहे हैं वो graduate करते हैं वो industry में जाते हैं लेकिन they have the knack for teaching and so they can go back and potentially teach students a lot of you know technical and vocation based things but वो unfortunately they don't get it get cut. I agree with you. आपके batch के बहुत कम लोग होंगे Pakistan में जो मेरी understanding है. क्योंकि ज़्यादातर लोग जो हैं वह पूरी दुनिया में होंगे. वह क्या कहते हैं उसे you know Microsoft थे उधर थे उधर और बल्कि GI केगा तो I remember I was speaking to अली फाहद from start up launch. जी जी जी he is yeah yeah and you know he was telling me from आते फवान to आप लोगों की तो pedigree इतनी next level है कि पत्थर उठाएं और कोई GIK का निकलता है and and they really sort of value that as well कि the minute it's a GIK alumni तो you know you suddenly the ice is broken and you can connect with them. That is so true और और शायद इन चीज़ों का आपको ज़िंदगी में फ़ायदा भी होता है लेकिन

उसका जो flip side है ना मुज़मिल मेरी ज़िंदगी में जो experience है वह यह है कि फिर अगर आप उस level of pedigree में नहीं हैं तो it puts a lot of pressure on you. अच्छा. Right? तो अगर मैंने डेढ़ साल गुज़ार दिया अब and in parallel मैं CSS की तैयारी कर रहा हूँ तो डेढ़ साल के बाद it's time for the next batch to come as teaching assistant. It's time for me to create space and move on. Right? And that's that's a life lesson as well, right? बड़ा ज़रूरी है कि आप समझ जाएं कि यार अब मेरा time है to move on and for someone else to come and take over as well. लेकिन उसके साथ साथ I think कि जब आप grow करते हैं ना तो I think it's good to have that inspiration कि मैंने किसकी तरह बनना ही है क्या करना है. Right. ठीक है? And I think for me being in GIK अगर मैं inspiration की बात करूं तो it was actually two personalities. One was कदीर खान. Mhmm. And the other one was गुलामिसाह खान himself. Right.

और वह अगर आप उसकी life journey को देखें या इन दोनों की life journey को देखें there is so much to learn over there. कादीर खान था I sure people have that understanding but I know for a fact that not a lot of people have that understanding for गुलाम ए साह खान. So why him? Why why you taught his something about his journey at university या generally आपका अपना मुतालिया है? नहीं so I'll tell you something interesting. So गुलामी साह खान when he created the university

the पिशावर university जो पिशावर के अंदर है was created by someone who actually was born in टोपी. अच्छा. ठीक है? So, गुलाम इज़्साह खान by establishing or creating JIK in टोपी is paying privilege to that person. It's a homage or a privilege to that person. Oh, interesting. ठीक है? And then he created a house at the top of the hill जहा पर उसने कहा कि I am going to live there and next to the house is actually his mezuleom. Unfortunately the family did not decide to bury him there. तो जब मैं वहाँ पर गया पहले साल तो मैंने देखा जी वो मज़ार बना हुआ है तो मैं अंदर गया so गुलामिस्सा खान in reality started if I am not mistaken with the पटवारी. अच्छा. ठीक है? And that is where he rose through the ranks. अच्छा. जी. So he started pretty low in the career.

I thought I mean he was a very because अगर उनकी family को आप देखें वो तेमुल झगड़ा and you know I mean it's a ton of not just politicians but also you know mckenzie folks and industry

and but you are saying a century it's all like self made and. देखिए जी बात यह है कि it it so तेमुर झगड़ा is actually his नवासा. नवासा right. ठीक है? आप अयुब खान को उठा लें और अयुब खान के वालित को देख लें तो वो फौज में तहसीलदार थे, sorry अपना सुवेदार थे. अच्छा. ठीक है? और वो ये वो class थी, ये वो age थी जहां पे काम करना अच्छा समझा जाता था. Titles ये उन चीज़ों की इतनी अहमियत नहीं थी. Right. Even if you came from a well off family, you were still ok अगर आप फौज के अंदर कप्तान हैं. Right. ठीक है ना? तो just to set the context right. So, him being starting with पटवारी और even तहसीलदार as well is not something bad. Yeah. ठीक है? And then he rose through the ranks. He became DC, and then he came into, greater posts as well.

Eventually, I believe he, like, as grade 22 and then eventually becoming the president, I believe. Yeah. Yeah. And president he became because of सिया passing away. It was a accidental Exactly. Position. Yes. Right. So he happened to assume that position. He was not supposed to be in that position. He was not a politician per se? Not at all. Not at all. So he was in the bureaucracy at the time? Yeah yeah. And so because there was a martial law administration going on and so the bureaucracy had to sort of Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. तो

that is correct कि martial law के बाद यह हुआ था लेकिन that was a position that he assumed. ठीक है? So he was never supposed to be the president of Pakistan. Right. लेकिन जो चीज़ मेरी नज़र में ज़रूरी है वह यह है कि the way you actually discharge those duties and I think he really discharge them gracefully. People can disagree with the way he did the decisions that they made as well. I think that is fine to have a difference of opinion. लेकिन और और एक और चीज़ ज़रूरी है वही है कि what he gave back to the country. आप JAK को देख लें विराय studied, atomic program को देख लें और कितने projects हैं जो गुलामी साखान ने दिए. So, that was one of the reasons कि he became my inspiration. Interesting and so you graduate, you do the TA thing and you decide कैसे मुझे life में कुछ बड़ा करना है. You know, I'm I'm inspired and I'm beginning to dream.

And so you you move to Islamabad. Where did you apply? What was the thought process? तो उस वक़्त दो

तरह की hirings हो रही थी. This is 02/2006. एक software houses और दूसरा telecom का boom था. तो हमारे कुछ batchmates थे, different telecom companies के अंदर भी mobile operators were around as well और दूसरा software houses. तो जो तरीका होता था वह यह होता था कि आप ढूंढते थे कि आप किसको जानते हैं? अपने batchmate को या senior या junior को. और जो अपनी CV पकड़ा देते थे. Right. ठीक है? तो I actually started applying in software houses plus telecoms. Software house मुझे याद है the far that I could reach was एक के अंदर मेरा interview हुआ था और उन्होंने कहा था नहीं जी अभी you are not suitable तो you'll have to wait. And the question always was कि आपने डेढ़ दो साल इंतज़ार क्यों किया? ठीक है? So that question maybe I did not had a good answer for or maybe it was good for me at that point in time. Then what I did was there was a government position or a government department called, department of communication security. And that was a grade 18 job directly.

So I apply for it, मुज़मिल. I Very ironic considering कि आजकल communication security की बरीबर हालत होगी मैंने नहीं में नहीं नहीं

नहीं should I mention or maybe it's true that I did not join it right so I apply there direct grade 18 okay so it's a good thing of what I did and combination of कि government role भी है Interviews, tests, सारा कुछ होता and I get the position. अच्छा. So on the day of joining, they ask us to bring our passports with us. मैं जाता हूं और मेरे साथ दो और लड़कियां so they were taking three officers. कहते हैं तुम तुमसे मैं बाद में बात करता हूं. तो मैंने कहा जी तो joining से पहले ही मेरा काम हो गया. खैर जब वह बाकी दोनों चले गए तो उन्होंने कहा जी इन दोनों की तो मैं joining भिजवा रहा हूं. ठीक है, कहते उसे explore करो. So I still remember मज़ामिल कि वहां से मैं निकला on Islamabad Highway और अच्छा अच्छा for him he was like यार this guy is making a mistake. He is going to ruin his career. हां. And I actually stayed in touch with that guy. So I will come back to that story interesting. Because I was also curious कि यार यह क्योंकि आप सोचते हैं Pakistan के अंदर कि शायद अगर यह मुझे कह रहे हैं तो may be इनके जैन में कोई और candidate हो. हां. किसी और को fit in कर दें. यह जैसे निकाल करके जैना अपने वह. तो you are always thinking कि यार मेरे साथ double तो game तो नहीं हो रही. ठीक है? Right. खैर वहां से मैं निकला तो on on the Constitution Avenue actually I gave a call to that friend of mine और मैंने से कहा यार वह मेरी CV का क्या बना Dickson के अंदर? And that's how things started progressing. Interesting. And so you got the got the position at Erickson. You started off as what was the role? I started as a business developer. अच्छा. So this is 01/09/2007. ठीक है. When I started as a business developer in Erickson. What was the role? Mean, what So the role was primarily, sales ठीक है. But at a junior level. So it was more to, pursue business for Ericsson with Telenor or with, MobileInc by the time or China Mobile. And so this was more like

presales sales, like a technical sales role where you had to sort of identify कि ठीक है, आपकी requirements क्या हैं? Requirement gathering की, थोड़ी सी उसके हिसाब से बनाया and then eventually उसके financials mix किए या was it like, you know, you were relationships and getting the It was presales.

उस वक़्त इतनी bifurcation नहीं हुआ करती थी frankly but it was presales. So I was actually taking care of two kind of portfolios. One was enterprise. Right. और उस वक़्त हमारी Ericsson exchanges भी बनाया करती थी. अच्छा. तो उस company के अंदर जितने phones लगे हैं वह कहां पर connect करेंगे एक दूसरे के साथ बात करने के लिए वह extension कैसे dial करेंगे? अच्छा. So let's say अगर हम एक PC की example लेते हैं as a hotel और वहां पर दो सौ कमरे हैं और उन कमरों ने आपस में बात करनी है तो उसको solution कौन provide करेगा? So enterprises and big offices used to buy the exchanges themselves.

Right right right, makes sense. ठीक है so it's a exchange हो गया. अच्छा so essentially आप यह कह रहे हैं कि जितना PTCL एक exchange था. जी. तो एक sort of intranet exchange वन रहा था जो कि ठीक हो गया. Exactly, for enterprises or for smaller deployments as well. Plus I was taking care of what by the time was called consumer and business applications. अच्छा. So आज तो email हम for granted लेते हैं on mobile phones. At that time,

email के लिए एक application आया करती थी जो Ericsson की तरह की companyयां जाकर बेचा करती थी. अच्छा. So I used to sell that to Telenor और वारित by the time. Interesting.

So software solution and exchange? That is correct. Erikson उस वक्त क्या कह रहा था?

So Erikson I mean has been president in Pakistan for last sixty years, right? उस वक्त जो हमारे पास बड़ा project था that was वारिद. अच्छा. So वारित had launched maybe two years before that or three years और जो सबसे बड़ा project हमारे पास वारित का था, combined with that was China Mobile as well. Right. So, तो Salon Kessel Towers and Exactly. So close to 70% of the towers was with Ericsson. In in addition to that, it was all charging, billing और plus उसके साथ साथ हम उनका network manage भी कर रहे थे. So it was managed services, it was deployment,

it was charging, billing, all the multimedia solutions. And so Ericsson as a player was not just exclusive to the telecom hardware. What they were doing was कि वह telecom के जितने भी operations थे, one way or the other Pakistan में शायद शायद वह कर रहे हों but they were doing everything and

the telco company essentially becomes a marketing company. That is tough. Exactly. जो कि कह रही है कि ठीक है, brand building हम करेंगे, consumer तक पहुंचेंगे, हम feedback integrate करेंगे लेकिन जो actual hardcore काम है वह आप आकर हमारे लिए operate करेंगे. That is correct, that is correct. So from that sense, Erickson was pioneer of managed services in Pakistan. Right. And when we signed the contract for Jazz, so exactly as you said, we were, our people were even sitting in वारिद premises. But they were managing the network on their behalf. So what we call is custodians of the network. Right right right. Very cool. And so 2009 में आपने join किया? 2007. 2007 में and you've been with them ever since? I've been with them since. So what have the roles been? What sort of hats have you been wearing all these years? So after the first week one of my supervisors asked me कि तुम क्या बनना चाहते हो? वो ज़िंदगी के अंदर ये ही सवाल आता रहता है बनना कह चाहते हो? कोई ये नहीं पूछता इंसान कब बनाओगे? तो और उस वक्त तक मैंने organization को देख लिया था कि जी कौन बंदा क्या कर रहा है? तो मैंने कहा जी मैं I want to become camp वारित. So the key account manager for वारिद was the guy in the company. Right and was this

I mean एक तो यह कि sure the company has a lot of value in that account and so you are valuable to the company but were these sales position also bonus based कि आपका जितना वह आ रहा है तो आपका remuneration भी tired हो उसके साथ? They were. And I think for me,

all all through in my life personalities and people have affected me more than their titles. Right. So the guy who was actually in the role by the time really inspired me. अच्छा. So मैंने गायज उसकी तरह बनना है और वह role बनना है. तो so I I started with that. Then I did, the presales role. So this was business developer, which is combination of presales and business development. Then I did, customer engagement director, for Iran, Sudan, Pakistan, EJM Turkey based out of Pakistan. अच्छा, so you basically went regional

I went regional focus from Pakistan and so eriction के जो यहां पर talent है it is it exclusively focused for Pakistan या is it more like a वह आपका जो delivery center types global delivery center types होते हैं? So we are close to 450 people right. और majority

of the workforce is actually for the business in Pakistan but we also have something called a near shore center. जहां पर जो बुनियादी हमारा concept है वह यह है कि हम Pakistan की human capital को कैसे capture करके we provide services to outside the country as well. अच्छा और election के इस तरह के centers कहां कहां पर हैं? So globally we have them in India. We have them in Spain, Hungary and I think South America. Philippines में नहीं है? Not that big. We have but not that big. Not that big. अच्छा. And so ये जो centers हैं इसमें अगर कोई basically excess capacity आ रही है तो they go to the country other countries and sort of. So it actually depends on the delivery strategy right so for instance अगर आप एक system integration project को उठाते हैं तो अब जो concept है वह यह है कि you can actually divide the work into work packages. Okay. ठीक है? तो you agree on a scope और आप कहते हैं जी यह integration और work package तो remotely हो सकता है and those work packages you offload to the resource centers. Right. Plus on top of that अगर आपको resources चाहिए of different competence, आपको project manager चाहिए, implementation manager चाहिए, you can bring in from there as well. So it's a combination of both. Makes sense and so you're still exclusively focused on telecom or are you beginning to open up? No. We are predominantly focused on telecom, at least in Pakistan. Globally, Eriksen की जो strategy है, that is to now start looking into enterprises as well. Okay. Because with with advent of five g, it is more for enterprises. Right? It is beyond consumers. Right. So recently we have acquired a company called Vonage,

which is a global company. Vonage, the VoIP company. Yeah. Oh, this is so fascinating. It's just last week my mother took out a box and she was like listen यह डब्बा है इसका क्या करना वोनिष्का था वह. This is back in so my sister got married in '94 and she went to The US and so '99 वोनिष्का था हमारे पास दो हज़ार तीन में and then दो हज़ार आठ तक हम करते होते थे और एक American number होता था. Oh my god that is such a great memory. I thought nobody in Pakistan would know that name but wow. So Vonage is a recent acquisition that Erickson did. Very cool. Pretty hefty 6,000,000,000.

Yeah yeah yeah. और उसकी जो idea है वह यह है कि eventually telecoms will go the same way as IT. So you need to expose the network and Vonage has the largest community of developers APIs. Oh, right right right. ठीक है? तो what happens when you provide them access and they started developing applications on the whole network.

So tell me something. You know, when I see Ericsson, when I see all of this sort of, what's the word for it? Value chain. मेरे द्वारा में आ जाता है hardware and hardware operations. Ericsson जैसी companyयां आ जाती है, IBM on some level आ जाती है. फिर उसके पीछे software layer आती है कि यार ठीक है मेरे पास telecom setup हुआ हुआ है. उसके पीछे you know millions and billions of data points इकट्ठे हो रहे हैं call के सूर गई किसके नहीं आई उसके ऊपर आपको terror data मिल गया IBM उसके ऊपर बहुत सारा काम करता है. फिर उसमें you know enterprise solutions SAP के आ जाते हैं snowflake के आ जाता है. पहले वक्तों में जो जो जो hardware and operations was in itself a huge chunk and उसके पीछे फिर आपके पास जो जो पीछे वाले थे वो comparatively lower value, lower value तो मैं नहीं कहूंगा but वो इतने serious नहीं थे और they were at the same level as the hardware side of things, right? Over time हमने जो बड़े बड़े सुने किया data is the new oil, जो data generate हो रहा है उससे आप जो insights कैसे कर सकते हैं उससे जो value generate कर सकते हैं तो जो value chain का वो वाला component था बहुत बड़ा होना शुरू But eventually they had to really open themselves up and they started saying ok will will you know will work on AWS as well, will work on Azure as well and cloud पर भी चले जाएंगे and उस तरह से because the the the the space is getting really scattered and everybody is trying to take a piece of the pie. So right now in terms of Ericsson as a as a player, इस value chain में वह कहां कहां पर अपना वह कर रहा है? I know for a fact कि five g and five g hardware is definitely a part of it and that strategy and वह सारा का सारा. But in terms of the software and the again data component उसमें क्या आरते से इनके listen like partners हैं. अगर आपको ज़रूरत है तो you know IBM आकर कर देगा लेकिन हम उसके अंदर नहीं घुसते हैं हमारी expertise है या are they looking to expand themselves? So

पहली चीज़ जो मेरे ख्याला ज़रूरी है वह यह है कि telecom और telco networks have become quite complicated. ठीक है? तो वह आज से दस साल पहले वाले networks नहीं है. Which actually means कि उनकी integrations extremely diverse हैं स्वागत. Plus the nature of services, nature of provisioning that you do and the charging is totally diverse and it's multidimensional.

Right? And sir when when you say diverse,

is it high value as well? It is. It is. Ok. तो and I'll I'll give you a few examples as well. But overall, so from Ericsson perspective, हमारी अभी भी 60% revenue stream is coming from hardware. Ok. Ok? Because eventually, you have to make it. अब जो नया concept है, वह यह है कि you make your own silicon. ठीक है. Because the moment you make your own silicon and ASIC, you can actually do it to the minutest level and optimize it for that functionality. Right. So for consumers,

if m one is the right,

example. Yeah. So we have, equivalent of m one only for radio communication.

Right. So आप proprietary आ गए और आपने कहा कि यार ठीक है अब तो competition मेरा अपना बनाएं कोई खेले, मैंने use कर खेले. And that gives you a lot of,

speed and efficiency advantage as well, right? So that is one and I think that's going to stay there for a while क्योंकि as as long as आपको radio coverage की ज़रूरत है, you need that hardware and people need to provide it as well. उसके साथ साथ when you look at radio coverage तो एक हो गई. अब आपने data use भी करना है. आपकी charging भी होनी है. आपने एक तरफ अपना YouTube का package रखना है. दूसरी तरफ आपने Instagram का package रखना है. तीसरी तरफ आपने अपने phone के ऊपर TV भी देखना है. ठीक है? And all of that needs to be charged and provisioned for as well. So we have actually solutions for that which are, to a larger extent, software solutions. And in that case, we just buy three p p hardware off the shelf, and we can even deploy them in data centers as well. Right. The third direction is कि enterprises have actually a unique requirement now. ठीक है? So for example, the connectivity today is very much based on cables. You go into any office, even यहां पर भी हम बैठे हुए हैं, there are so many cables. Right. Right? But imagine, a enterprise or office where you don't have any cables except power cable. Right. Okay? So that requires a lot of connections, and that is where companies like Credal Point which Ericsson has bought as well come into play. So they specifically target the needs of enterprises कि enterprises को क्या ज़रूरत है और वह क्या चाहते हैं. So just to understand again for a layman,

सादा सब बेवकूफ आदमी हूं तो mind ना करिएगा बहुत dumb question हुआ but my understanding is all of these enterprises used to have like यह काले काले racks of servers and systems and वह पूरे office कितारें उधर जाकर लगती थीं. Nobody would rely on the Wi Fi because it's, you know, clunky and weird and so you use the Wi Fi or the network for the Internet connectivity. But अगर आपने, internally कुछ भी करना है तो, you know, either you connect a table directly through the laptop or you let that sort of वह जो एक server room था वह सारी wires छतों से जाकर उधर connector नहीं थी. Are you trying to disrupt that? Yeah. With a high speed intranetwork within the company and then that connected to the laptops. So you just put one box. Okay. And then everything else will have a connection of its own. You can put Wireless. Yeah yeah, wireless. So you can put a SIM there.

Right? A SIM dedicated to that box? A SIM dedicated to every device in reality, right? So your every device can be connected.

नहीं, वह तो ठीक है, वह मैं समझ गया. ठीक है. But मैं मैं समझना नहीं चाह रहा हूं. वह जो same है, that corresponds to that particular box? Like, is it internet?

Internet same, not a satellite network की same है जो कि wider network से connected है? So it depends who provides that. Ok. So if for example if you take example of any mobile operator here, the mobile operator can provide that service. So they go to an enterprise और वह यह कहते हैं कि आपके पास जितने devices हैं, we'll provide you sims for it and we'll also provide you a box which is going to take care of all connectivity. And then on the back end हम सारी provisioning और हर एक चीज़ आपके लिए कर देंगे. ठीक है. ठीक है? So which means कि वह जो आपने rack वाली बात की वह सारे का सारा rack भी गायब हो गया. आपको किसी cabling की और चीज़ों की ज़रूरत भी नहीं है. And depending on your need, ठीक है? मिसाल के तौर पर आप यह कहते हैं कि मेरा जो meter लगा है जी, वहां पर तो मुझे high speed internet नहीं चाहिए so that you are ok with having a SMS even. क्योंकि उसने एक दफा billing करनी है और एक दफा जब उसकी वह घूमना है तो उसको एक reading आनी है, right? Right. On the contrary अगर आपका TV है तो that needs a dedicated speed. अगर आप gaming की demand करते हैं तो that requires a totally different level of speed. So every connection in itself then can be provisioned for. Ok. So you're really going into the I IoT world. You're saying कि, like, and you're you're getting into that play yourself. You're not saying कि भाई हम तो major connectivity provide कर रहे हैं और फिर IoT में कोई भी आगे खेले Zigbee के ऊपर or whatever. You're saying कि we'll go to the down to the last Yes. IoT in itself is a pretty vast thing, right? Right. So it it really depends कि कहां तक हम जाते हैं. So what we are planning for is to actually provide the platform for it. ठीक है. और इसके ऊपर जो applications develop होती हैं that is more for the developers to do that. Right. मुझे थोड़ा सा यह बताइएगा. यह conversation निकले तो मैं इसमें tangent में जाना चाहूंगा.

Sort of thought experimenter. What we've seen is कि security is now becoming a major problem all over the world. Yeah. Again, very close to Pakistan. Very recently, you know, we've seen कि on the on the highest level, there's a security issue. Yes. And it seems like when I think about it, for an end consumer, it seems like, yeah, I'm never secure anymore because from the world of pegasus and all of that, if I'm connected to the the railroads of the world, you know, कोई भी आ सकता है. True. You know, anyone who's smart enough will be able to get into it. And so consumer को तो शायद मैं ना कर सकूं but मैं मेरे दिमाग़ में एक enterprise के लिए एक requirement या एक utility आती है कि let's say फौजी fertilizer वाले हैं या anger वाले हैं और वह कहते हैं कि यार we want to create a network of our own people. True. ठीक है? अच्छा Angro may be a good example because वह तो बहुत radical idea है कि मेरे लोग पूरे Pakistan में फैले हुए हैं और वह एक secure network पर आ जाएं. वह थोड़ा सा complicated है because आखिर में वह खंभे कहीं ना कहीं किसी ना किसी touch point के ऊपर किसी के साथ share कर रहे होंगे and वहां पर आप वह कर सकते हैं. But अगर यह compound है इंग्रोहा compound है और वहां पर पूरे Pakistan का engineer और उनकी family जाती हैं वह compound में ही रहती उससे बाहर नहीं जाती. तो is there a solution or can will there be solution in the future where you will say कि ok we'll give you secure connectivity within this and instead of managing the security of every single device we can manage the security at what one touch point where वहां पर आपका सारा का सारा security manage हो रही है. उसके नीचे जो internet पर सारे के सारे connected हैं, वह एक अपने local system में connected हैं. And if they are calling from a system to system, they don't have to go to a universal exchange. They can communicate directly. Yeah. And so my understanding is on some level there is a security, जो कि आपको provide हो रही है. True. So

security is is a very interesting and a fascinating concept, right? Because it continues evolving. जो आपके लिए secure है, जो हमारे लिए Pakistan में secure है versus जो China में secure है, Russia में है, Sweden में है, it is different. Right. And it is different on the context of the reality that we live in. ठीक है? Erikson की जो value है वही है. We actually believe कि upholding human rights is the most important thing, ठीक है? So in some cases we have decided to not even go into areas where we believe eventually it might lead lead into intrusion into human rights or someone's privacy. Now in in cases like the one that you describe, अगर हमेंगरों की example लें या फौजी fertilizer की, The very crude thing that that is done usually in some cases if is कि those enterprises have their own private LT networks. ठीक है? तो what they do is कि they deploy their own network. अच्छा. ठीक है? And then that network is only for them. So आपने gate से बाहर गए, खंबे के signal ख़त्म हो गया and Exactly it's and then then you roam on to another or or you decide कि आपके पास dual sim है or you can do a roaming agreement. That is one level and we actually see a lot of forces or security related organizations have started doing that. Right. ठीक है? And maybe that is one way of doing it as well. एक और चीज़ जो मैं देख रहा हूं globally is कि now there is a larger discussion on product security as well. Right. कि how do you make your products more secure from different angles and it is becoming a topic on everyone's agenda. ठीक है? But it will evolve. क्योंकि जो एक चीज़ हमें हमेशा ज़हन में रखनी है वह यह है कि जितना आप secure करते हैं आपके जो hackers हैं ना वह उससे ज़्यादा advance होते हैं. हां हां. And they always come with another way of doing this. And sorry आपसे पूछने का मकसद यह था कि मैं Telenor से यह सवाल पुछ नहीं सकता? क्योंकि इसके ऊपर जो development

side है ना? जी. That's the core. क्योंकि eventually Telenor ने जाकर या किसी और network ने जाकर आप ही की provided चीज़ को बेचना है कि यार ok we are now the most secure network in Pakistan and I feel like कि there is a एक दौड़ लगी हुई है speeds की. Speed की आप गौड़ कहां तक ले जाएंगे? बिल्कुल सही बात है. हम कौन सा इतना खेलते हैं यार YouTube वगैरह Netflix सारा चल रहा है four four k में आपके पास stream हो रहा होता है. I think there is a requirement कि अब जो आपके product offering है वह बजाय इसके you know fast trust four g at the cheapest cost एक तो cheapest cost की वजह से भी वह hit पड़ेगा उनको. तो maybe they can begin to say कि ok like we are a secure network. Correct. Pay us a premium and just come to our network and we'll make sure कि you know you're not being एक tapped

तो जो consumer security है ना उसमें जो चीज़ ज़हर में रखनी है वह यह है कि if you are not buying a product you are the product. Right. ठीक है? और वह जो हम दस सफ़ों का end user agreement होता है जिसको हम ढूंढते रहते हैं कि accept किधर है? उसके अंदर हमने सब कुछ दे दिया. दे दिया हुआ है. ठीक है? तो you actually when you are signing up for free services you cannot actually say कि जी अब मेरी data privacy या मेरी information की तरह है. हां. ठीक है? Unfortunately हमारे मुल्क के अंदर operator उतना revenue subscriber से नहीं बना रहे जितना advertisers like Facebook और बाकी लोग बना रहे हैं per subscriber. Mhmm. ठीक है? And there is a cost eventually that you pay. Right. लेकिन I would like to come back to the example that you gave. So and and it is an extreme example. Remote surgery, ठीक है? जहां पर there is a use case के surgeon could be sitting in Europe and he or she could be operating on a patient in Pakistan. Right. ठीक है? You don't want anyone hacking that connection. Yeah. ठीक है? In big mines, there is a use case कि बड़े truck जो mining के truck होते और वह अगर आप और मैं खड़े हों तो उसका tyre फिर भी हमसे दो तीन गुना बड़ा होता है. Mhmm. Right? You don't want someone hacking into that truck and taking control of it and driving it somewhere. Yeah. So security is a big top. And we've seen that with with with power plants in The US. Seen the oil pipeline getting blocked and and and so that's becoming a huge deal as more of us or or more of our

infrastructure

gets connected to the Internet. Exactly. Exactly. So security is a big topic. I think as we go along, we are discovering it as well. Right. So there is not a perfect recipe for this. Do you think that that that element is going to and I'm gonna wrap this part of it

quickly but do you think there's an element where you'll be like, listen, like, we will do hardware, we'll do security but at at there there needs to be some sort of dedicated forces or folks जो कि इसके ऊपर काम करें और potentially partner हैं. Like is it a is it too optimistic to pin all of my hopes with to solve that problem as well while they're solving the speed problem or the efficiency problem and वो सारे सारे. सवाल का मकसद इस तरह से है कि one of my brothers works for this company called Protegrity and they basically are huge data security company across the globe and वह है ही exclusively वह focus चीज़ के ऊपर है. So वह ऐसे कह रहे हैं कि यार आपका hardware जो भी है, काम जो भी है, we will give you the additional layer of security. What do you think in terms of eriction वो किस तरह जाएगा? So when it comes to product security in itself,

that is something that we uphold and we say कि हमारा product जो हम आपको provide कर रहे हैं that is really secure. Secure from a perspective of first the capabilities that it has to offer, उस perspective से भी secure है plus the security की कोई उसके अंदर intrude ना कर सके. But when it comes to applications on top of it that we are open for partnership. ताला हमने लगा दिया है चाबी से आप block करें या ना करें वह तो आपके ऊपर है ना कि आप उसको किस तरह से करेंगे. Exactly लेकिन लेकिन मेरा ख्याल है क्योंकि अगर आप अब stack को देखें ना तो वह शायद जो composition है वह इतनी crude रही नहीं है मुज़मिल. With cloud and everything, right? It is different levels of abstraction that you can draw. तो वहां पर it's more about the platform and the core application that we are concerned about. उसके ऊपर जो application आती है that is more for for partnerships and we are up for it as well. Right and one last thing

in terms of the future of telecom hardware, I know for a fact that, you know, you you you were the the sole sort of champions, back in the nineties, early two thousands as well. I guess Motorola थोड़ा सा आपको शायद वह करता होगा, Siemens on some level. But by and large, election was the market leader. Recently, China has been growing very, very rapidly, and and we've seen that with Huawei and ZTE. And, and five g race is a huge race. Like, you know 3 to $5,000,000,000,000 in the global economy. Wealth creation within the next ten years. It's the holy grail for a lot of people in terms of whichever country. वह जो चल रहा है ना आजकल एक silicon का जिसने आपने mention किया कि silicon is also one another one of those things कि आज Taiwan से हटकर अब America भी invest कर रहा है, China भी invest कर रहा है. Whoever controls the production controls the world. Of course. And so I feel like it's it's a very similar thing. Whoever controls the the five g race controls the world on that level. How do you see the market on a macro level right now, you know, with competitors like Huawei and ZTE? Globally,

if I look at the five g market share as of today, Ericsson by far is the leader. And, we are present in five g in all five continents. Outside China, outside Mainland China, we have close to, I think, 40% market share. So overall I think there is a need for five g. But at the same time, आपका point कि हमें शायद speed की race में नहीं लगने की ज़रूरत नहीं है. There are applications which can be very well served with three g और four g speeds as well, right? So what is important is कि हमारे मुल्क की या हमारी industry की demand क्या है? And then you address those demands as well. But what we believe is कि five g is a lot about enterprises. Right. Five g is a lot about कि आप efficiency कैसे लेकर आऐंगे चीज़ों के अंदर. Okay? So if I give you an example कि let's say हमारे पास एक बड़ी peculiar example है on, the crane operator जो कि जब ship आकर dock करता है with a lot of containers तो वो सबसे मुश्किल काम इस वजह से और सबसे ज़्यादा fatalities भी उस crane operator की होती हैं. उसकी वजह ये है कि एक तो से बिल्कुल नीचे हो के बैठना पड़ता है. He is sitting vertically right? वो हमारी तरह comfortable नहीं बैठा. ठीक है? The second one is कि उसकी वजह से उसकी neck का pain और फिर दूसरा movement इतनी ज़्यादा है कि any mistake that he makes because of fatigue actually results in in, quite significant loss. Right. Now the use case is कि अगर आप उस operator को एक कमरे में बिठा दें, जिस तरह पर मैं बैठे हुए हैं पानी का glass और चाय का cup लेकर and you install a big screen in front of him. Right. Sort of like a dome operator of sorts. But you need the latency and speed for it, right? क्योंकि वहां पर response time के ऊपर आप compromise नहीं कर सकते. Right. ठीक है? And there are examples where we have done that. Right. And that results in first and foremost the most sacred thing is human life. Mhmm. So we end up saving human lives plus अब वह एक operator शायद काफ़ी efficiently काम भी कर सकता है. ठीक है? That is one example. Another example is, trucks and mines. ठीक है? I mean, that journey is the operation is designed for twenty four seven. क्योंकि the moment you stop that truck, it costs you something. Right. और उन trucks का जो maintenance cycle है, that is five hours. अच्छा. ठीक है? So that five hours is not good for business. क्योंकि उस वक्त वो truck रुका हुआ है अब उसकी maintenance होनी है. And why is that? क्योंकि आपको खोल के पता चलता है कि उसका oil change करना है या नहीं? किसी machine के अंदर problem है या नहीं? ठीक है? And then you also have those operators जो हर एक उस truck के अंदर बैठे. ठीक है now imagine a scenario मुज़मिल कि आपने उस truck के अंदर sensors लगा दिए. So when the sensor tells you कि अब आपको maintenance की ज़रूरत है the truck goes for maintenance ठीक है so that is one example Plus linked with that, अब उस truck को आपने autonomous बना दिया and the driver only needs to intervene जब उसको लगता है कि कोई चीज़ रस्ते पर आई है and he needs to intervene. And that actually means कि अब एक driver चार से पांच trucks को manage कर रहा है. Right. ठीक है? Imagine the efficiency that you gain out of it. आखिरी चीज़ जो मैं बताना चाहूंगा वह यह है कि for once we actually said कि हमें rather than waiting for the industry, maybe we should actually do something of our own and actually show कि होता क्या है. So we have a five g factory in Texas, in US. And we said we are going to make it five g and fully automated. Right. ठीक है? और वहां पर अगर आप जाएं तो there are robots who are making our equipment and everything. What we have actually seen is कि it requires 30 to 40% less energy. ठीक है? क्योंकि वहां पर बंदे बड़े कम हैं. लेकिन उन लोगों को आपने अब और कमों में इस्तेमाल कर दिया. So it did not result in the reduction of people. Right. But what it reduced was कि अब वो different काम कर रहे हैं अब वो planning कर रहे return काम को आपने हटा दिया and then आप फिर humans को आप ले जा रहे हो जाके तो I mean energy cost potentially temperature control में भी change हो जाएगी. उसमें change हो जाएगी, lighting की वजह से आपको ज़रूरत नहीं है. आप जितना पानी इस्तेमाल कर रहे थे उसकी ज़रूरत नहीं है and it also increases the efficiency. Right. So these are the benefits which actually any new technology can unlock. हमारी calculation यह है कि on average any increase of 10%

for connectivity and it doesn't have to be five g has a result of 1% on GDP. अच्छा. जी. Oh, wow. And so if I were to talk to about talk to you Pakistan, and I'm speaking to Amir Ibrahim from Mobile Inc. Yep. And he, you know, sort of echoed the same thing, listen, like, this is not a race towards speeds because there's no consumer demand for it. Yep. The fact is your consumer does not even a vast majority of your consumers not even fully on four g and definitely on the the the speeds of four g जो कि normally you know expect की जाती हैं. तो आप उन speeds को ही बढ़ा दें. आप पीछे पहले अपनी you know country connectivity के wires तो डाले ना. आपकी total overall country की bandwidth इतनी नहीं है. क्या five g लगाकर expect करने के वह है? सच, it's more of a novelty right now. But then he also spoke about some interesting models. Like he was like कि rather than, you know, having these sort of crazy high fees of licensing, maybe there needs to be an innovative, revenue generation model for the government where they can say either a pay as you grow. Yep. You know, where, आप for example यह कहते हैं कि जैसे subscriber base बढ़ेगी या जैसे जैसे वह बढ़ेगा आप उसके ऊपर licensing fee दें. Rather than saying कि जी खट्टा बाकी you know $180,000,000 दे दें for a novelty project for a vanity project, right? और यह आपने बड़ा interesting बोला कि while your average user does not have the requirement need or the ability to pay for because I know that five g infrastructure is costly as well. Radius is much smaller and so a lot more hardware needs to be deployed as well. If I were to look at it, Pakistan five g, that's a long journey and costly one as well. Urban centers, urban business centers, urban enterprise centers, what could potentially, what applications could we potentially create where, you know, these locations with very very high density with corporate customers technically speaking जिनकी जिनको वह जो utility है वह direct cost saving में use हो रही है. True. उसको मैं दूं तो उसमें क्या है? अब अगर मैं एक सौ अस्सी million dollar का जाकर license लेता हूं, दो सौ million dollar का लेता for the entire public that makes no sense. But if I begin to let's say say कि यार मैं location specific licensing कर दूं. Where I can say कि ok kilometer radius की licensing हो रही है for example. I don't know यह तो just at the top of my head. That could as a business model be much better in terms of us getting into 5G than anything else and इसमें एक major चीज़ जो last मैं mention करना चाहूंगा कि Pakistan ने historically हमेशा जो है ना बहुत सी दौड़े आती हैं और हम पीछे मोड़कर देखते हैं हम कहते हैं यार काश आपका engineer फ़ारिक बैठा हुआ है. Why don't you hop on to this at least on an enterprise level where election Pakistan can go from four fifty to 500 but not servicing to Pakistan? But servicing all over the world but for that he requires that, you know, access here to train and and then that trained resource can then be global as well. So what do you think about the models? So

very interesting topic. So there are few aspects that that I would like to bring here. एक तो यह है कि शायद हमें उस दौर से निकलना है कि वो जब हम कहते थे कि पाक्तेल एक बहुत बड़ी luxury है, ठीक है? Connectivity in my opinion is a basic right now and decision makers और people who have influence need to think about it. ठीक है? और access to road as well. So why not connectivity? Connectivity in today's world is a basic right, ठीक है? So this is something that we really have to understand. It is not a luxury. And the moment we start looking at it, then we will realize कि हमें इतने ज़्यादा पैसे charge करने की ज़रूरत नहीं है. Plus also realizing कि इस वक़्त Pakistan के अंदर telecom industries really struggling, ठीक है? And it is high time जहां पर energy costs इतनी ज़्यादा बढ़ रही हैं और linked with that हमारे operators पैसा नहीं बना रहे तो they really have to make money to be able to reinvest. Right. Now there was an example but very similar to what you said which was done in Norway. So what they did was मज़मिल उन्होंने कहा कि हमें एक specific speed चाहिए and I don't remember it was 10 Mbps or 15 or 20 or whatever. But they gave that as an obligation. Operators को उन्होंने कहा कि the spectrum is free as long as you're committed to provide this. अच्छा. ठीक है? The moment you come down, there might be some fines. लेकिन till that time, the spectrum is free.

So what they're basically playing on is something that you mentioned a little while ago of 10% connectivity Exactly. Increasing 1% of GDP. It's really just about how you sort of look at the problem exactly and find a solution. Revenue generate करना है ठीक है जी government यह कहती है देखो company इतने पैसे बना रही है हमें पैसे generate करने sir दस और तरीके हैं पैसे generate करने के exactly और शायद वह ज़्यादा efficient तरीके हैं. बहुत efficient है देखिए आप और मैं आज यह बैठे यह interview आज से दस साल पहले नहीं कर सकते थे और इस तरीके से हम broadcast नहीं कर सकते थे. ऐसा ही है. Right? और उसकी वजह क्या है? जो एक पूरा ecosystem create हो गया है because of YouTube, WhatsApp and the whole applications

is because of 3G and 4G. Right? Yeah. तो उसका indirect benefit. आप अपने plumber से आपने बात करनी है, you can call him on WhatsApp. आप सारी applications के ऊपर पैसों से pay कर सकते हैं, right? So which is resulting in a efficient use of economy and it is actually increasing the wealth as well और उसका impact है on GDP,

ठीक है? Keeping aside the political argument अगर motorway ना बना होता आज तो आप हमारे सड़कों की हालत क्या होती और हम कैसे travel करते हैं? हां, हम तो कभी connect ही ना होते छोटे शहरों के साथ. सब्ज़ी अच्छी आपने मिसाल दी. My wife is, you know, recently working on this sort of brand project, where she was like कि I want to connect with women from Peri urban areas and and and really see what what sort of services they're providing and then see if we can create some sort of value chain where money can be driven to them. इस्तेमाल बाद में वह बैठी नहीं है. उन्होंने किसी को contact किया दीयाई खान में. दीयाई खान में उन्होंने एक ख़ातून ढूंढी जो कि यह करते थी काम. Mhmm. उनका number लिया. WhatsApp पर literally सारी dealing WhatsApp हुई है. वह तस्वीरें खेचकर भेजी यह क्या वह क्या फिर e commerce की voice उन्होंने samples आगे पीछे कर दिए और वह deal हो गई पूरी की पूरी. ऐसी? Without having to go there. Exactly. Without talking to them उस तरह से. वह उन्होंने सारा का सारा like WhatsApp को use किया और अब वह इंशाला पैसा जो है वह flow करना शुरू कर देगा. In an extremely impoverished area. Exactly. जिनके लिए जो कि access to market में वह दो दो रुपए की चीज़ें बेच रही थी जो कि suddenly now to a larger market like इस्नामाद and then all over Pakistan वह उसी दो रुपए को दो सौ पहले जा सकते And it is only because of connectivity. Connectivity, absolutely.

So this is one point. The second point also is कि हम 5G पर नहीं जा सकते with with the packages and the mindset of 4G. ठीक है? Which actually means कि अगर आपकी एक typical screen को मैं लूं और four k definition को लूं मुज़मिल और मैं आज वाले आपके packages apply करूं on five g data speeds, it is going to really destroy our operators. So we really have to think of charging differently. Okay. What do you mean by that? And what I mean by that is you have to differentiate on the services. ठीक है ना? आज अगर हमारे इस वक़्त industry suffer कर रही हो, उसकी एक वजह यह भी है कि हमने बहुत ज़्यादा ही unlimited packages provide करती हैं. ठीक है? And it is a high time कि why are telecom industries paying the cost for it? ठीक है? दुनिया के अंदर इस वक्त शायद data Pakistan में सबसे सस्ता है और may be amongst few countries जहां पर सबसे सस्ता है. क्या वजह है उसकी? और अगर उसकी cost industry play कर रही है तो may be that is also a reason कि हम अगली step पर नहीं पा रहे हैं. ठीक है? So that is a moment for all of us in the industry to think about और उसको हमें transition करना है. आखिरी चीज़ जो मैं कहूंगा वही है मेरा personal opinion है कि you cannot actually say कि अब मैं ready हूँ मेरे पास applications भी हैं, मेरे पास ecosystem भी है और मैंने अगली technology पे जाना है, ठीक है? So if you look at the advent of four g, ठीक है? Four g के आते वक़्त उस वक़्त अगर आप पुरानी videos या case studies खोलकर देखें तो the best example that was given was video call. Mhmm. Three g के अंदर भी थी video call, four g के अंदर भी थी video call. But the technology came first, ecosystem developed on top of that. Right. ठीक है? आज से दस साल पहले कोई सोच सकता था कि four g इस्तेमाल करते करते YouTube आएगा, WhatsApp आएगी, Instagram आएगा? कोई सोच भी नहीं सकता था, right? So what I am trying to say is कि जो connectivity है और technology का एक basic infrastructure है वह provide करना कुछ और players का काम है और उसके ऊपर innovation होना कुछ और लोगों का काम है. But we need to make sure कि हम वह provide करें क्योंकि हमारी But वह question वही ना कि chicken and egg है what comes first? I think Exactly. You can't compete with India, can't compete with Philippines. नहीं नहीं और और unfortunately दुनिया के अंदर concept of network outages is totally gone now. Yeah. Right? लेकिन हमारे पास होता है और उन मजबूरी से होता है. Because when mobile operators have to make a decision कि यार मैंने पैसे बनाने हैं because end of the day they are a business as well या मैंने side co op रखना है. Mhmm. So as a business what kind of decision would you make? So मेरा यह ख्याल है कि हमें भी शायद as consumers यादत पड़ गई है

Right, makes sense. थोड़ा सा मैं conversation को uplift करूंगा. And I'd like to understand you know I know that you you when you went to वहां से हम basic retaining पर निकले थे but when you went to or rather you were posted on a position जहां पर आप regional को देखना शुरू हो तो गए how was that as an experience, you know, moving away from just working with Pakistan in Pakistan? And I mean, I know you were sitting in Pakistan but you were now dealing with

five, six countries? Yeah, five, six countries. So, I still remember कि पहला मेरा business trip था when I was working for RXNOC. पहले मैंने कभी जाज़ भी नहीं देखा था. अच्छा. And that in itself is a fascinating experience, right? Yeah. But then when you are exposed to different cultures, वहां से आपको जो learning आती है वही आती है कि चीज़ों को देखने के और करने के मुख्तलिफ तरीके हैं. और वह जो हम कहते हैं ना कि यहां पर चीज़ें ऐसी होती हैं, यह ज़रूरी नहीं है. Mhmm. ठीक है? So for instance on one side I was dealing with people from Turkey, people from Europe, people from Sudan, Iran and different nationalities. And that really intrigued me कि यार ये मुख्तलिफ लोगों को मैं समझूँ कि इस तरीके से क्यों काम हैं and that really was a learning for me as well. So I think this multicultural aspect of it was something that I really enjoyed. उसके साथ साथ हर एक market की अपनी dynamics है, ठीक है? हमें यहां पर मिसाल के तौर पर नज़र आता था और स्वक़त कि advertisement हम कैसे करें? ठीक है? उस वक़्त it was a big concept कि operators के पास तो data पड़ा है सारे का सारा, लेकिन वह advertisement कैसे करें? And then I had a chance to go to Indonesia and I actually saw कि they merged telecom advertisement with FMCG kind of advertisement. अच्छा. And they were actually saying कि अगर आप यह मिसाल के तौर पर साबुन खरीदते हैं तो for this you will get this package free. Interesting. ठीक है? So that really opened up the avenue कि आप किन किन चीज़ों के लिए इस्तेमाल कर सकते हैं और same problem जो हमारी industry को है वो बाकी लोग उसे solve कैसे कर रहे हैं? आखिरी चीज़ जो मैं कहूंगा वो ये थी कि ericsson being a global company is present everywhere, right? So, I mean, are present in close to 180 countries. लेकिन हर एक company का locally एक अपना flavor भी है. And that's really interesting to see कि जब आप Pakistan office में walk walk in करते हैं तो एक Pakistan का flavor है. When you walk into a Turkey office or somewhere else it has a different flavor as well and that was also interesting to see. Right and obviously आपका जो meetings वगैरह तो रही होंगी जहां पर you had to travel but

it's a multinational company उस तरह से were you able to get transferred to to other regions as well and work there as well? Yep. So, the opportunity came in so from 2000,

'9 till 2011, I was working on this, regional role. Right? And then I stayed in that position for, three years and that was amazing experience because वारिद was the only customer where we actually leapfrogged the technology. So we went from 2G to 4G directly. Right. ठीक है? So that was great. 2015, embargo lift होता है Iran के ऊपर से and Iran becomes a big market. Right. This is the post nuclear deal? This is actually the the post nuclear deal जो GCPOA जिसे वह कहते हैं Obama के time पर जो हुई थी. Right. And that got me thinking कि यार Iran चलते हैं and I always was curious about फारसी और Iranian culture. इकबाल is another inspiration. So I went to Iran. I stayed there for three and a half years. अच्छा. Amazing experience, yes. Where do you live? तेहरान? I lived in तेहरान, but I went across the country. How's the how's the country? I mean, how how's the infrastructure?

This is a country that has been hit by sanctions time and again. This is a country that is isolated in the eyes of the world. You know, I mean, what's the infrastructure like? What are the people like? What sort of groceries do they have in their stores?

तो, एक तो आजकल, Iran as a nation is going through a lot of struggle. So my my sympathies to what is happening over there as well. लेकिन as a country, it's a beautiful place. अच्छा. Infrastructure हम यह समझते हैं कि जी embargo की वजह से कुछ भी नहीं होगा, आपकी सोच है. They have made everything themselves. So वहां पर गाड़ियों की अपनी है, ठीक है? They make their own cars. अच्छा. ठीक है? जिस तरह हमारे पास इधर मैरान है ना, वहां पर PJOK एक model है two zero six and they still make it. अच्छा. ठीक है? And then they have latest cars as well. They have their own banking system. Pakistan में मुझे अभी भी cash use करनी पड़ती है, ठीक है? At some places Iran में during my three and a half years I I did not had to use cash. जो सब्ज़ी वाला है उसके पास भी वह point of sale card है और वहां पर वह. I am sorry मैं यहां पर एक intervene करूंगा तो then I feel like हमारा जो industry है वह cop out करती है कि जी FATF तो हमारी तो global connectivity के मस्त नहीं है है वह है. अगर will है तो आप अपने local को भी आप optimize करके digitize कर सकते हैं बेहतरीन तरीके से. Yeah, so they are not connected to the international banking, right? Because of embargo. लेकिन within the country they have their own banking system. Interesting. ठीक है? मुझे वहां पर cheque book की ज़रूरत नहीं पड़ी साढ़े तीन साल के अंदर because I could do anything online and via my debit card. And it was an optimized, good quality experience. Yeah, every मैं आपको कह रहा हूं कि मैं पूरे मुल्क में घूमाऊं from the north till south, east to west और हर जगह मैं सिर्फ़ अपना card इस्तेमाल करता था. So that is one example. Amazing infrastructure, roads और कहीं पर, security के element आपको नज़र नहीं आता, ठीक है? And maybe they are good in controlling the whole environment, maybe sometimes that's the sideline benefit of, authoritarian regime. लेकिन कहीं पर हमें challenge नहीं हुआ कि आप कहां पर जा रहे हैं. I went to, the most holy place, मसाद Iran के अंदर. I went there during रमज़ान and I was really curious कि क्या है, क्या नहीं है? और, being a सुन्नी मैंने अपने तरीके से नमाज़ पड़ी. मुझे किसी ने मुज़मिल वहां पर नहीं रोका कि यार तुम कौन हो? तुम क्यों इस तरीके से नमाज़ पड़े हो क्या? The level of tolerance that they have and the cultural respect is simply amazing. इकबाल को वो लोग इकबाले लहूरी कहते हैं और I and I still remember कि अगर मैं ये कहूँ कि मैं Pakistan सी हूँ तो they would say अच्छा इकबाले लहूरी के गांव से हैं या इकबाले लहूरी के मुल्क से. अच्छा and so they have studied इकबाल and oh yes yeah yeah much more than we do. Yes. What what's their understanding of इकबाल? Mean हमें तो यह पता है ना वह उन्होंने Pakistan का खाद देखा था इसके अलावा पूरे Pakistan में किसी को ऐसा कोई वह नहीं है. So मैं आपको एक बुनियादी मिसाल दूं मतलब Iran is a culture which has been there for last four thousand to five thousand years right and there is a cultural depth. हमारे पास किसी इमारत के ऊपर इकबाल का नाम लिखा होगा ना तो हम यह कहेंगे कि जी वह इमारत है जिसके ऊपर इकबाल का नाम लिखा है. फारसी में वह कहेंगे कि वह जो इमारत है वह मुज़ाईयन इस वजह से है कि उसके ऊपर इकबाल का नाम है. अच्छा, what does that mean? So what that actually means is कि उस building की beauty सिर्फ़ इस वजह से है कि उसके ऊपर इकबाल का नाम लिखा है. अच्छा. ठीक है? So they actually understood इकबाल's concept of ख़ुदी, उसकी जो सारी philosophy थी and actually खुमेनी used it during his, revolution as well and they still use it. Interesting.

In terms of culture, what what were some interesting elements from Iran? ज़ाहिर again they're isolated but like you said, बड़ी बड़ी powerful चीज़ होती है, a lot of people don't realize it but when you have that civilizational depth, I don't Yep. I say civilizational because वह nation state से आगे निकल जाती है. True. Right? That really helps you understand some fundamental core values that you uphold as as people, as human beings. जो कि मुझे लगता है कि unfortunately Pakistan के case में हमारे DNA में missing हैं और हमने कभी उसको की भी कोशिश नहीं की. हम आज तक जो है वह अरबी और तुर्क और you know on some level Persian भी अपने आप को बना लेते हैं. मैं भी पिछले देरों को गया हुआ था इधर I had the opportunity to speak to the उज्बेकी ambassador. I believe it it was Uzbekistan or Tajikistan, one of those. And so I entered the embassy and so there they have these all of these paintings of some of their conquerors who've eventually, you know, gone out of their areas and come to to different parts of the world. और मैंने देखा उसमें बाबर भी है. आधा बंदा तो वह था जो हमने पढ़ा, जो मुगल हमने बना दिया और हमारे दिमाग में जो image आती है उस बंदे की वह एक उर्दू speaking वहां जहां पर India जो है वह आपके मुख़्लs को whitewash कर रहा है अपनी नई history के अंदर. आपके पास एक incredible opportunity है कि आप उनको really take them in and and and utilize them. But even beyond some of these sort of Muslim conquerors and Muslim leaders the fact is you know सिंध and Punjab have had a history before the Muslim empires. And so, unless we understand what values were part and we we'll study them. Right? So true. जो हमारा एक question mark आता पाकिस्तानियों का हर तरह से बात कि यार what are we? Are we Arabs? Are we Persians? Are we, you know, कौन से आजकल चल रहे हैं? Are we अर्थुरुल और are we this or are we that? There's nothing wrong with sort of exploring that. But the reason why there's so much, in my opinion, polarization and and and and and aggression within the population is because we don't have a root जिसके साथ हम सारे agree कर सकें. True. Right? So in that context, how did you find the the the Persians?

Very interesting question, fascinating. So, एक तो nations को अपने narrative के ऊपर काम करने की ज़रूरत होती है और वह time to time करना पड़ता है. Right. लेकिन बुनियादी चीज़ जो जो जिसके अंदर आपका culture या सकाफ़त समाया होता है ना वह ज़बान है. Irani अपनी ज़बान फ़ारसी के ऊपर compromise नहीं करते. आप उनको अंग्रेज़ी आती भी होगी लेकिन वह पहले यह चीज़ समझेंगे कि आप फ़ारसी नहीं बोल सकते तो फिर वह आपसे अंग्रेज़ी बोलेंगे. तो अपनी ज़बान पर उन्हें बड़ा मान है. एक तो बुनियाद चीज़ दीजिए. दूसरा, अपना रसमो रवाज और अपनी तारीख़ के बारे में उन्हें बढ़िया गाई है, ठीक है? मिसाल के तौर पर इक्कीस December जो सबसे लंबी रात होती है उसे वो शबि यलदा कहते हैं, ठीक है? और शबि यलदा को वो रात को बैठकर और Irani सुबह के time पर मैंने देखा है speakers के ऊपर music चल रहा होगा और लोग मिलकर exercise कर रहे होंगे. Mhmm. ठीक है? किसी मौश्र वहां पर किसी walk of life के अंदर मैंने नहीं देखा कि ख़वा तीन शामिल ना हो. ठीक है? आपके सब आपकी नज़र में तो यही आता है ना कि वह पर्दा और बिल्कुल नहीं. वाहिद मुल्क है Europe के अंदर मैंने कम देखा है, Iran के अंदर मैंने ज़्यादा देखा है कि taxi driver तक आपको ख़वातीन मिलती है. जी. अच्छा. हमारी workforce के अंदर वहां पर ARIXA Iran के अंदर it was '25 to 30% for women. And it's so interesting how the media plays it though, right? Like the media has told us this sort of ताले बनाई regime that's you know where where it's very it's it's so fascinating. और और मैं आपको एक और चीज़ बताऊं मिसाल के तौर पर, कि ज़बान की मैंने बात की, right? ज़बान सिर्फ़ बोलने से नहीं आती. ज़बान के अंदर आपको अपने ख़यालात को implement करना पड़ता है. मैं पहले Iran गया तो महीने दो बाद company ने एक driver दिया और उससे मेरी बातचीत हो रही थी. तो उसको एक दिन मैंने कहा कि यार कल ज़रा इस time पे आ जाना. तो उसने मुझे कहा and he was a guy. तो उसने मुझे कहा जी my, husband is sick. अब मैंने सोचा कि Europe के बारे में और बाकी societies के बारे में तो आपने सुना हुआ है. यह मेरा ख़याल नहीं था कि Iran भी इतना advance होगा. So फिर उससे मैंने पुछा कि यार क्या मतलब? तो उसने मुझे कहा जी my हम sir. So Iran के अंदर, फारसी के अंदर they have taken away the words or the nouns for he and she. Interesting. And that was a conscious decision that they made to bring equality. Wow. And it was done like twelve hundred years ago. And so this is

this is equality की बात आज भी होती है. It's so interesting that a lot of times when we talk about a lot of these things we're because हमने अपने तरफ expand नहीं किया तो हम उसमें एक western lens लेकर आ रहे होते हैं but we we have a lot of these things within our own culture. True. Which is much more contextualized to us जहां पर ये चीज़ें हो रही हैं. It's not like you know हम जो east है वो बड़ा regressive था या islamic world was very regressive. We had our own evolution and that evolution is showing in in different so

so हम हमेशा बात करते हैं first world, second world and third world, right? But in my opinion, that is very much a capitalist driven thing. Mhmm. Because take away the economic aspect of it and then tell me who is third world and who is first world. Algorithm की मैंने बात की थी and and as as a computer person you also know और I hope कि बाकी लोग भी समझते हों. But algorithm lies at the heart of all computer work that you do, right? The word itself comes from अल खवारज़मी, ठीक है? So अल ख़वारज़मी was a मुस्लिम scientist who came from Central Asia. यहां पर most likely यहां से गुज़र के गया होगा. He ended up in Baghdad and he did a lot of research. The challenge अल ख़वारज़मी had was कि he was looking for indian numerals, ठीक है? Mhmm. और उसको किताब तो मिल गई वहां पर house of knowledge के अंदर लेकिन वह किताब संसीकृत में लिखी हुई थी. Mhmm. ठीक है? And he actually got hold of दो पुराने बुढ़े बंदे थे. उनको उसने कहा आपको संसिकृत आती है उन्होंने कहा हमें आती है. So they would translate into arabic during the day and he would read at night. ठीक है? और एक दिन रात को वो पढ़ रहा था और उसने चिल्लाना शुरू कर दिया मुझे मिल गया, मुझे मिल गया. What he found out was zero. Right. ठीक है? And imagine a calculation without zero. Imagine computer and its basics without zero. And so outside of संस्कृत at the time in that in in that world, there was no zero? There was no zero. अलखवारज़मी was the first guy who discovers that and how he discovers it is coming from a person which is ब्राह्मण गुप्ता. And that ब्राह्मण गुप्ता could have come from this place और दूर जाने की हमें ज़रूरत नहीं है. अगर आप audience भी आपकी search कर सकती है if you search for बखशाली script, ठीक है? That is the first documented plague which has been found which has one till zero. और आपको पता है वह कहां पर बिली है? बखशाली is a town close by to मर्दान. अच्छा. जी. So it's about narrative. Yeah. कि हमें अरब बनने की ज़रूरत भी नहीं है. ठीक है? All the respect for Islam as Muslims. That is our identity and everything. But Islam has been there for some time. Yeah. उससे पहले हम लोग कौन थे? Yeah. उससे पहले इस खित्ते में कौन लोग पसते थे? And maybe it is also high time कि हम अपने थोड़े रसमोर आवाज़ के बारे में भी बात करना शुरू करें. बजाय के कि हम सिर्फ़ limit ही करते जाएं अपने आप को. So that was something which really fascinated me in Iran कि उनकी अपनी sense of identity, उनकी अपने रसमोर आवाज़ त्यौहार

बड़े खुशी से वह मनाते हैं. Very interesting and so I know that you also went to Turkey as well. जी. Was that a conscious decision? Mean, was Iran and Turkey a conscious decision on your part कि यार मैंने इन इन

civilizations को explore करना या was it more like एक opportunity आई and then you were able explore these areas more? So Iran to a larger extent was a conscious decision और उसकी वजह यह थी कि एक तो एक बाल और दूसरा रूमी और श्याम्स के बारे में मैंने बड़ा सुना था. So it was really a fascination and with फारसी language as well. So we stayed there for three and a half years और उसके बाद sanctions came back. Right. So talking about the vulnerability of the world, एक tweet जो है Trump की that actually Taised everything. Chased everything. And so sanctions came back and now suddenly you have to leave like? Yeah, exactly. I made the commitment कि I'll be the last foreigner to leave in the country. अच्छा. And that was very emotional experience मुज़मिल क्योंकि we were a organization of 700 people and we had to bring it down to a very low number. अच्छा. ठीक है? But all in all it was a good learning for me as well. From there I went to Turkey. अच्छा. Turkey इसलिए कि एक तो मुझे बचपन से आता turk से बड़ा उनस्था और उसके साथ साथ तलकिश culture भी in itself is a beautiful culture. So that really intrigued me as well and I also thought कि शायद उनके जो रसमुर आवाज़ हैं और जो system है वह हमसे निस्मतिन करीब है. So there were options at that time even to move to Dubai और Abu Zabi और Europe as well. I actually declined that. So there was an offer that came while my shipment was going from Iran to Turkey, and they said कि यार उसे Abu Zabi route कर दें, मैंने कहने जी. For me, Turkey is Turkey is better. And so you stayed there for how long? For two and a half years. And how is that? That was great as well. So, unfortunately, I think one and a half year was during COVID. तो उसके अंदर तो आप इतना घूम फिर सकते नहीं हैं. But Turkey again is another example. जहां पर मुस्तफ़ा कुमाल comes in and I know we, in our country, we have multiple views about it. लेकिन अगर purely मैं nation building की बात करूं, आप उसके मज़हब, मज़हब के बारे में ख़यालात को आप side पर रख लें. He gave a new script to the nation. अच्छा. हां, so Turkish script which is based on Latin script now was given by मुस्तफ़ा कमाल. अच्छा. And the reason for that was because he felt कि अगर मैंने सारे लोगों को बराबर करना है तालीन के अंदर, I have to do a refresh. Right. दूसरा arabic script is not very well suited for turkish vowels. Right. So he actually said कि हमें उस तरफ move करना है. उसके साथ साथ जो system उसने उन्हें दिया which is based on science. आज अगर Turkey के अंदर मुख्तलिफ international companies हैं और उनके research centers हैं और सब कुछ है, उसकी वजह यह है कि he gave them education and a system कि आपको science के ऊपर सोचना है

Very cool. You mentioned इकबाल obviously. Yeah. And you know उसके बारे में भी मैं जानना चाहूंगा कि what what what about इकबाल has fascinated you? But you also mentioned श्याम्स and and रूमी. And I know a lot of people, sort of Pakistan में actually more people have have read 40 rules of love and have an understanding of रूमि and and and श्रम्स more than than इकबाल. But, why were you always fascinated by, एक spirituality की तरफ़ मुझे आपका एक रुझान नज़र आ रहा है? So,

always am fascinated कि आपकी जो ideas हैं और ideals हैं, वह कहां से आते हैं? Right? And and I always believe, maybe it's my personality type as well, कि there has to be a deeper meaning to things. रूमी की पैदाइश होती है जी Afghanistan में. By origin he's in Afghanistan. Right. And he's born in बलक. And he immigrates and migrates and he ends up in कोनिया. ठीक है? Now ज़िंदगी के अंदर जब हम सोच रहे होते हैं ना we are trying to relate ourselves to people and their journeys. So in a way I I think inherently I was relating my journey to रूमि as well. और वहां पर जाकर he's just a normal मोलाना. Mhmm. ठीक है? Till he meets someone like श्रम's and that changes his life. Mhmm. But the experience रूमि goes through is not an easy experience. क्योंकि श्याम्स उसे challenge करता है उन्होंने areas में और उन्होंने thought processes में जो रूमि ने सोचे भी नहीं है. And then eventually he writes के मौलवी हरगिज नशुद मौलाए room. ताह गुलामे श्याम्स तब्रीजी नशुद. कि मौलवी उस वक़्त तक मौलाना नहीं वन सकता था जब तक उसने शम्स की गुलामी कबूल नहीं की. Mhmm. ठीक है? And शम्स could be an idea as well. Right? So that whole concept and spirituality really attracted me as well. इकबाल इसलिए क्योंकि इकबाल, in my opinion, was on a journey of self discovery. So if you read इकबाल's work, which he wrote when he was 30 years old, is very different compared to eventually जो उसने बाद में सारी अपनी शायरी लिखी. And I think in the process he discovered himself. उसका जो हमारे पैगंबर से प्यार था, आश्केर असूल था और उसके जो depth of ideas हैं, that is simply amazing. Mhmm. Being a computer engineer, I studied recursion and poetry is very much like a recursion for me. आप एक verse of poetry लिख दें, मुज़मिल and you can continue to think about it forever and the recursive loop loop never stops, right? Right. That, me, is poetry. So that was one of the reasons.

Have you read a lot of, Eggpal's work? Yes. I have. Throughout, his time, you mentioned something about him being different at 30 and him being different at 50. Yeah. How would you summarize what his thought processes were? What sort of a person do you imagine इकबाल to be? So

इकबाल is someone who, who has seen the world, and he has really studied hard for it, right? तो philosophy, उसके साथ साथ शायरी से प्यार and then he goes to Europe and he has a journey in Europe as well, right? In in, Germany or other places And then he comes back at the age of 30 and he writes book called Stray Reflections. And it's something that I actually encourage everyone to read. और बहुत लंबी किताब नहीं है. कुछ pages के ऊपर सिर्फ़ एक line है. अच्छा. ठीक है? But that really gives you a window into his thinking at that point in time. बाद में I think and at that age being at 30 एक बाल himself was not very clear कि उसने करना क्या है? क्या उसने इधर settle होना है? उसने वापस जाना है और उसकी thinking क्या है? But later on his thinking became very clear as well. For me इकबाल is someone who has a very high sense of belief. Okay. And you cannot be successful in life अगर आपकी sense of belief और depth of belief strong नहीं है. ठीक है? His sense of belief was very clear कि हमारे लिए we have to become one nation और जो concept of खुदी है which is very famous as well वह उसने हमें दिया है. And then he uses symbols for it. शाहीन is one symbol. Right. ठीक है? और फिर वह जब बात करता है चाहे वह उठो मेरी दुनिया के ग़रीबों को जगा दो या वह encourage करता है ख़िताब बाद जवानान के अंदर तो वह बड़ा at the root of it जाकर बात करता है कि जवान को क्या चीज़ समझनी है, ठीक है? एक और ख़ूबसूरती जो मुझे इकबाल के काम में नज़र आई वह यह है कि क़ुरान की काफ़ी आएतें हैं जो as it is आप उठाएं यह हदीस वह इकबाल के काम के अंदर आपको नज़र आती हैं. ठीक है? इकबाल की एक बहुत बड़ी मशहूर है. खिदमत सर्वरी दर्दीने मां खिदमत करी अस्त फारसी के अंदर है कि जो सर्वरी है which is like you can call it ruling as well मेरे दीन के अंदर वह खिदमत करना है और युज़ुर्सलाह सलाह की हदीस है. सर्वरी दर दीने माह खिदमत करी अस्त. तो sense of and depth of belief linked with that is giving concepts which are unique और उसने किसको नहीं पढ़ा उसने Netze को भी पढ़ा उसने बाकियों को भी पढ़ा but he really made his own ideals out of it. Rather than following कि यार मैं Europe गया तो अब मैं Europe के पीछे दीवाना हो जाओ. और आखिरी चीज़ जो मेरे लिए इकबाल की inspiration है वह यह है कि उसने अपनी sense of identity पर compromise नहीं किया मुज़मिल. इकबाल को अंग्रेज़ी भी आती थी, इकबाल को German भी आती थी लेकिन eventually he ended up writing in उर्दू and in फारसी. तो उसकी sense of identity बड़ी clear थी कि वो है कौन? उसे अलकोट से आया है और वो अगर बात भी करता था तो बड़े साधे तरीके से बात करता था and these were some of the things which really fascinated me. Right, interesting.

Why do you think you... For most part and most people I speak to they don't these are not areas they're thinking about. You know, doesn't really matter कौन सी age पर हैं. Generally post retirement वह जाएंगे जाकर थोड़ी spirituality वापस आ जाएगी and they'll be like यार अब तो you know पता नहीं कितना time लग गया है. Shelf life रह गई है so you know अपनी जन्नत clear करने and when I speak to you I don't I don't see this element of जन्नत. I see an element of कि यार मैं एक अशरफल मखलूकात हूं तो मुझे सवालात पूछने हैं मुझे उन सवालात के जवाबाद चाहिए. What do you think built this personality? What happens to someone that they are able to go to this sort of a journey? Because with आपने इकबाल के बारे में यह बात की मुझे आपका भी यह लगता है कि आप एक self discovery में रहे हैं throughout your life. And largely because, you know, taking decisions like I'll I'll I'd rather go to Turkey for my because of my inspirations rather than going to Europe where I could potentially get a passport, is a serious decision, right, at the end of the day. And so that has implications on your life, your kids, your future. Most people do not have the strength to take those decisions. Most people do not have the strength to remain in Pakistan. I mean, for me, you know, I have had to toy with this idea of कि यार क्यों बैठे हुए हो Pakistan में? क्यों आज तक Pakistan? Like why do you have this inherent center of belief कि यार कुछ ना कुछ तो होगा short term में हो, long term में हो. And that's not easy to to to have, right? To believe आप बंदा चूना अगर लगा रहा होता ना वह एक time तक लगा लेता है और अगर जब तक दिल को आप नहीं मना सकते तो बाहर वालों को आप क्या ही मनाओगे? So what happened to you

I would say? Good question. So allow me to give a narrate a small story and then I'll come back to the point, right? So कहते हैं एक चिड़िया घर था. वहां पर एक ऊंट के हां एक उसकी बेटी पैदा हुई, ऊंटनी की बेटी पैदा हुई और वह बड़ी हुई चिड़िया घर के अंदर. तो वह रोज़ाना जाकर निकलकर ठीक है? तो आप ऊंट पैदा होकर you are destined to be in a desert. Right. ठीक है? हम जो मुझे यह चीज़ बड़ी clear थी और आज मैंने Pakistan का झंडा नहीं लगाया लेकिन पिछले छह साल मैंने वह यहां से उतारा नहीं है. Right. क्योंकि I could become anyone but end of the day I'll be a पाकिस्तानी. Right. और मुझे उसके बारे में किसी चीज़ से हिचकिचाने की ज़रूरत नहीं है. लेकिन इसके साथ साथ अगर आप किसी मैं, मैं जिस चीज़ को बड़ा believe करता हूं ना मुज़मिल वह यह है कि ज़िंदगी का एक मकसद है. ठीक है? और ज़िंदगी का मकसद आपको मिलता है जब आप सवाल पूछते हैं तो. गारेहिरा के अंदर हमारे पैगंबर के साथ क्या हुआ था? कि I had to face death and I actually face death very closely. ठीक है? And when you go through that experience you actually यह जो myth होती है ना यह bust हो जाती है कि ज़िंदगी जो है वह पता नहीं कब तक है? शायद साठ साल तक है नहीं. You actually go through an experience where you realize कि यार this is so fragile, it could go away anytime. If if you could share with us, you know, some of that those experiences. So when I was 11 years old, this is 92. So now it it gives a glimpse of my age as well. तो we और हमें शिकार का शौक है as a family. So we went out for wild boar hunting. And this was at a time जब काफ़ी अफ़ग़ान warriors were settling back in Pakistan. अफ़गान war is over in '92, so people are settling back. और December की रात है. हम वापस आ रहे हैं jeep के ऊपर और, मेरे वाले साहब drive कर रहे थे and we see कि सड़क block है और एक दरख़्त गिरा हुआ है. So he stops the jeep. It's a long story, but the essence is कि three people come out and they started firing on us with Kalashnikovs. ठीक है? So the jeep got hit by more than 90 bullets. And I can tell you it is very much like you see in movies कि I could still remember bullets going around. Slow motion के अंदर? Slow motion के अंदर. And the only thing I think जो मुझे उस वक़्त मेरे ज़हन में आई वह यह है कि I'm going to die. It's very clear, ठीक है? मैं सिर्फ़ खड़ा होकर यह देख लूं कि मेरे वाले सब ठीक हैं या नहीं हैं. And at that moment when I stood up, I felt something touch me on my right shoulder and that was a bullet. So I got hit by a bullet and that became a life changing experience for me because जब आप उस उम्र में बैठकर और ग्यारह साल की उम्र में बच्चा कितना एक समझता होगा कि मौत क्या है, ज़िंदगी क्या है, but I was ready at that point कि यार अब मरना है, this is it. Like, this is it. Eleven years take, rolls the credit scenes, it's over. Exactly. Yeah. End of story. And I think that has, in a way, changed my perspective on life. Mhmm. So I naturally became more interested in people. Mhmm. What drives them? What are their values? Mhmm. And then I pay very cute, very accurate attention to people's journeys. Mhmm. मैं हर साल कोशिश करता हूं कि मैं एक personality को उठाऊं और उस personality के ऊपर research करूं. ठीक है? तो मैं साल के तौर पर हम बड़ी कोशिश करते हैं कि जी हमारे पैगंबर हैं और हमें सुनत follow करनी चाहिए. लेकिन I am very curious कि उनकी ज़िंदगी के अंदर क्या कुछ हुआ था? What made him the person that he was और उन्होंने दुनिया बदल दी. Mhmm. ठीक है? Similarly, I read books about इकबाल himself. And then I try to mix it with traditional पाकिस्तानी writers but also to an extent Indian writers as well. Right. To understand कि वह क्या लिखते and that gives you so much inspiration and a window into their life as well. So if I were to ask you, sorry, यहां पर pause लेकर. Some of the books that you've read, some of the ones that you've liked, अगर आप recommend कर सकें for the audience as well. Sure sure. So for me, one book that I would recommend is मोहम्मद the life changer. Right. Or the world changer. Sorry. मोहम्मद the world changer. That is really good. Another book is, and I can give you the list so you can post it in comments as well, is, road to character. Right. So what is it that makes character? Right. ठीक है? And then I would say another one is good is actually इकबाल's work as well. Right. इकबाल का जो काम है वह आप सिर्फ़ कोई भी नज़म उठाकर देख लें and you read about it and you actually get so much inspiration and there are many books. Right.

Tell him we'd love to have that list and and we would we would try to share that with the audience as well. Anyway so you were telling me about yeah, at at at youth you had that experience. And so because of these experiences, it began to shape you in a way that you were able to look beyond the designated कि भाई यह काम, यह पढ़ाई करो, यह नौकरी करो, you know, bury it on a plot लो और मर जाओ. You know, there there was something more to to to life and do you think you've been able to find the answer to that? कि यार ज़िंदगी का मकसद जो है वह बस. मतलब what's, ok, let me give you a final question then. What is the purpose of life?

मेरी नज़र के मुताबिक और I think it's not an easy question on itself right? लेकिन एक at the very root of it is for the life to continue. ठीक है? इस पूरी कायनात को आप देखें तो अभी तक जो कुछ हमने discover किया है सारी काली तारीख़ कायनात के अंदर एक बड़ा ख़ूबसूरत सा छोटा सा गोला है which is earth और जिसके ऊपर so far we have discovered life or we have life. ठीक है? So at the very root of it is preserving life and the life should continue. ठीक है? और इसीलिए इंसानी ज़िंदगी सबसे कीमती चीज़ है. Right. ठीक है? So that is one thing. The second one is कि you you should discover and you need to ask questions. It is ok to doubt. ठीक है? अगर आपको यह कहा जाता है कि चीज़ें ऐसी होती हैं, चीज़ें ज़रूरी नहीं हैं वैसी हों. Mhmm. And that also is a purpose of life. चीज़ें बेहतर तभी होती हैं. Mhmm. ठीक है? और इसमें अगर मैं थोड़ा सा add करूं कि

you know critical thinking उस पर आती है जब आपको शायद पता हो गई यह चीज़ ऐसी ही है. But सवाल करके उसके इस उसमें you know have the have the understanding Just don't accept it for the sake of accepting it. The why then tells you why that thing is the way that it is. And so that teaches you so many things about, you know, how how things work. Exactly. तो तो life

actually is all about blossoming. Yeah. Ok? और अगर आप कुरान की reading को देखें जो पहली आया था इकरा, इकरा can also be translated into blossom forth. आगे बढ़ो और और खूबसूरत करो चीज़ों को, ठीक है? और वह that struggle is never easy. Right. लेकिन मेरी नज़र के अंदर it's the life has to continue and things should become more beautiful. और और वह लोग I I actually have with my research now and with my study which is very limited. मुझे कोई ज़्यादा चीज़ों का पता नहीं है. लेकिन I have boiled it down to what I call my five elements model. Okay. And I think if if you are able to balance this, you would eventually find a meaning, and your meaning might be different than my meaning. Right? So if I start, it is the first thing is the depth of your beliefs and the quality of your beliefs. Mhmm. It could be religious based. It could be based on ideologies, it could be based on people as well. But it is very important to actually have strong beliefs. You need to believe in something, right? आप आपको पता होना चाहिए कि आप कौन हैं और आप किस चीज़ पर यकीन रखते और आपके उस यकीन की बुनियाद क्या है? So that is one thing. The second one is quality of your relationships. Right. ठीक है? हम end of the day we humans are social animals. Right. और अगर आप इंसान का इर्तिका देखें तो हमारे मुकाबले में बहुत ज़्यादा mammals ऐसे थे जो हमसे बहुत समझदार हैं. Dolphin is much more intelligent than humans. Neanderthals in reality now there is a research they were more strong and muscular and maybe their brain size was bigger than homo sapiens. लेकिन एक चीज़ जिसने हमें हमारा इर्तिका किया और आगे गए वह यह था कि हम एक दूसरे के साथ मिलकर बड़े अच्छे तरीके से काम करते हैं और जो चीज़ हम सीखते हैं वह हम अगली नस्ल में pass करते हैं. Mhmm mhmm. So the quality of relationships is really important. आप अपने घरवालों के साथ, दोस्तों यारों के साथ कैसे काम करते हैं? Mhmm. So that is really important. The third thing is कि taking care of your health. अगर आप यह समझते हैं कि आप हमेशा लोगों को देंगे और आपका अपना प्याला ख़ाली है तो आप कब तक देंगे? Mhmm. And then only a healthy body can possess a healthy mind as well. So quality of your body or health is very important as well. Another one linked with it also is, what I call purple cow. अच्छा. ठीक है? So, and and that's an image which will not go away out of your audience's mind as well. So, I hope no one has actually seen a purple cow. But now you can imagine it in your mind. Right. And the reason you find that beautiful is because we like things which are different. Right. Human mind seeks novelty. हमें painting नज़र आती है और हम कहते हैं कितनी ख़ूबसूरत चीज़ है. हां. So that is also something that we seek as well. And the last one is the work जिसको हम शायद बहुत ज़्यादा attention देते हैं. And those five element model for me, if anyone is able to balance, can actually offer you a good balance and a meaning in life as well. Makes sense. And so work is definitely so

आपने कहा social belief important है because it gives you a sense of purpose. Yep. Relationships because again we're social animals. We have to survive and and I think a lot a large part of our health मुझे एक एक mental health crisis पूरी दुनिया में चल रहा है. I think with with post capitalism,

Exactly और अगर आपने नहीं भी मरना और आपने time तकलीफ में गुज़ारना है. हां, तो what's the point? What's the point? What's the point? Makes sense.

चौथी चीज़ आपने creativity कही थी and I think that is something that's one of the most interesting point out of all of these five because पांच के बारे में कुछ ना कुछ हम सोचते हैं and creativity के बारे में हम ऐसा सोचते हैं नहीं है. हम यह नहीं सोचते हैं कि यार क्योंकि हमारे यहां बचपन से हम पर काट रहे हैं, हम हर चीज़ को बहुत ज़्यादा डब्बों में बंद कर रहे हैं. And ask questions, be curious. And then be curious and and and वो सारा का सारा. And then the fifth is always definitely work there as well. Like आप क्या कर रहे हैं? क्यों कर रहे हैं? उसको कुछ ना कुछ तो आपको skipper element डालना है. अभी भाई we're at the one hour, Probably, we're at the two hour mark. And so I am going to wrap this up, but I'm gonna ask you one last question that I'm go I I ask all of my guests. And, you know, I think I hope I'm going to get a different answer from you because the way because of the way that you you think and and and your your research as well. How do you see Pakistan twenty eight years from now knowing what you know now, seeing what you've seen? You've been in in Iran and Turkey and Turkiye as Turkiye now officially. Turkiye. Turkiye. You know how do you see Pakistan? और यह बड़ा अच्छा है इस वजह से because आपका दो ऐसे cultures के साथ, ऐसी civilizations के साथ connectivity रही है जो कि बड़े close हैं. उनको देख के हम बहुत चीज़ें सीख सकते हैं. हम शायद अमरीका से इतनी चीज़ें नहीं सीख सकते. इसलिए हम मुख्तलिफ लोग हैं. मुख्तलिफ

एक तो यह कि हम जब मिसाल के तौर पर मैं Iran में रहा या Turkey में या उसके अलावा Ericsson is a Swedish company. तो Sweden की अगर मैं तारीख़ को देखूं तो Sweden as a as a country next year they'll complete five hundred years. ठीक है? और Scandinavian model लोगों को बड़ा attract करता and it is a beautiful model as well. Iran की अगर मैं history को देखूं तो that is we said for four and a half thousand or five thousand years. Turkiye काफ़ी पुराना है. लेकिन Pakistan is one of those countries जो काफ़ी young हैं, ठीक है? And I can only compare it with a teenager. बहुत ज़्यादा hormones होते हैं, बहुत ज़्यादा energy होती है तो ज़र्बा बड़ा कम होता है, ठीक है? So nations have to go through that phase और इसमें भी कोई शक नहीं है. हम हमेशा कहते हमारे पास वक़्त उतना नहीं है जितने बाकी मुमालय के पास है. और वह यह है कि यार हमने जाना किधर है और हमें क्या achieve करना है? तो मैं, दो हज़ार पचास, right? के ऊपर Pakistan को बहुत अच्छी हालत में देख रहा हूं. And the reason I decided to come back was also क्योंकि मेरा यह ख़याल है कि हम अगर buyer से बैठे सिर्फ़ Pakistan को देखते रहेंगे तो Facebook और Instagram के ऊपर तो एक हद तक ही हम कर सकते हैं ना. हमें वापस आकर कुछ करना है and that requires us to take risk as well. यह journey आसान नहीं होगी, ठीक है? लेकिन उसके साथ साथ जो बड़ा ज़रूरी है वह यह है कि इस journey के अंदर हम सारे लोग शामिल हों. तो एक आख़िरी चीज़ जो मैं कहना चाहूंगा मुज़म्बिल वह यह है कि, एक एक, बड़ा मशहूर शायर था अतार अतार of निषापुर और अतार कहते हैं उसको जो खशबो बेचता है. अच्छा. ठीक है? तो उसने एक नज़म लिखी थी जिसको conference of birds कहते हैं और उसके अंदर उसने एक concept दिया था which was sea मुर्ख. अब sea मुर्ख फारसी के अंदर या persian literature के अंदर कहते हैं Phoenix को भी कहा जा सकता है. ठीक है? So it is a mythical world. तो वो क्या करता है उस उस नज़म के अंदर वो ये कहता answering your question कि हम दो हज़ार पचास में अपने आप को कहाँ पे देख रहे हैं और मैं कहाँ देख रहा हूँ? उस नज़म के अंदर हुद हुद जो है वो so called leader है उनका और वह सारे परिण्धों को convince करता है कि जी आप लोग मेरे साथ चलें और एक journey पर हम चलते हैं और उस journey के अंदर हम सीमूर्ख को मिलेंगे, ठीक है? तो वह हुद्दुद से पूछते हैं कि वह सी मुर्ख किधर है? तो हुद्दुद उन्हें कहता है कि आप तवज्जो इस चीज़ पर दें कि सी मुर्ख का मतलब क्या है? और सी फारसी में कहते हैं 30 को और मुर्ख कहते हैं परिंदे को. Right. ठीक है? तो जब तक हम उस journey के ऊपर जाएंगे नहीं क्योंकि जवाब सारे हमारे पास हैं लेकिन शायद हम जैसे आपने कहा हम उन्हें कई दफ़ा बहुत दूर ढूंढ रहे होते हैं. Ideals भी सारे हमारे पास हैं, inspirations भी सारी हैं. तो अगर हम उसकी तरफ़ तवज्जो देना शुरू कर दें तो ज़रा नम हो तो यह मट्टी बड़ी, ज़रखेज़ है साकी. And do you think कि हम उस तरफ़, देखना शुरू हो गए हैं,

या हो जाएंगे? और your optimism meter,

where is it pointing right So my optimism meter is very high लेकिन what I see happening on ground मेरा ख़याल अभी उस state के बारे में हमें सोचने की ज़रूरत है. मुझे जो चीज़ मुआशिरे में नज़र आ रही है वह बहुत ज़्यादा polarization है. हमारी बर्दाश्त बहुत कम हो गई है और हमें अपनी जो एक दार है ना वह भूल गई है. तो जब तक हम बड़ा आसान होता है आप school के ऊपर डाल दें. लेकिन मेरी नज़र में जब तक हम घरों में बैठकर

बिल्कुल ऐसा ही है. मेरे भाई thank you so much this was supremely insightful. You know we took took the time out and and shared all that insight with you. Thank you so much for coming in. Thanks a lot for having me. Very kind of you. And for all of you guys thank you so much for It's the thought that counts. इसी के साथ साथ we are planning on, scaling up the podcast and so we are looking for partners, brands. You know, anyone who'd like to partner with us and, we're creating sort of partnered segments for that. Very soon we'll be launching that. But, also, if you'd like to reach out, the email address is on our platform so you can check that out as well. But, anyways, this was Sayah Mazamila Sanzedi. You are watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in the next one.