Thought Behind Things · Jun 27, 2022 · 1:17:06
Can consuming less tea solve Pakistan's forex crisis?
Fahad Yousaf, head of business at Nescafe Pakistan, talks about switching careers three times before finding his footing, why processed milk still holds less than 10% of Pakistan's dairy market, and what it actually takes to shift a nation of tea drinkers toward coffee.
with Fahad Yousaf
9 min read
Failing the CA exam three times — and what it revealed
The episode opens with Muzamil asking Fahad Yousaf about his early life in Lahore, and the conversation quickly lands on a formative failure. After completing his FSC at FC College in 1994, Fahad followed his elder brother’s advice and attempted chartered accountancy — a credential that, at the time, was seen as a guaranteed path to employment.
It did not go well. “Ek tax ka paper hota tha. I couldn’t pass that,” Fahad recalls. “Even today mujhe apni salary mein se tax kaise deduct hota hai — nahin samajh aata.” He attempted the second CA paper three times over two and a half years, studying eleven-hour days, and still could not clear it. The experience was, by his own account, a serious blow to his self-esteem.
What he took from it was not bitterness but a clearer sense of aptitude. He completed a private BSc in economics and journalism, did internships at Unilever and elsewhere, and eventually applied to LUMS for an MBA. The CA failure, in retrospect, was the first signal that his strengths lay elsewhere — in communication, problem-solving, and people.
The LUMS interview: fifteen minutes late, one fabricated story
The LUMS admission story is one Fahad says he tells often. He arrived late to his interview — having turned back halfway to retrieve forgotten documents — only to find the panel had already left for the day. A receptionist persuaded them to return. When Fahad walked into the room, three senior faculty members did not invite him to sit. They told him directly that arriving fifteen minutes late was not how one earned a place at LUMS.
Fahad’s response was immediate. He told them his car had broken down on the way, that he had left with a full hour’s margin, and asked them what they would have done in his position. The interview proceeded. He received his acceptance letter the next day.
He later confessed the story to one of the professors, a marketing faculty member named Ahsan Ullah. “Unhon ne mujhe kaha keh yaar, I don’t care — because the way you responded under pressure, that was the key. That was the point we decided keh yaar nahin, the guy knows how to handle a pressure situation.”
Muzamil notes that Fahad’s path to LUMS was not the typical one — no elite private school, no straightforward trajectory — and asks how he responds to the perception that LUMS is a bubble for Pakistan’s privileged. Fahad pushes back firmly. The institution, he argues, is built around diversity: students from Quetta’s rural areas sit alongside those from Lahore’s Defence Housing Authority, and women in full niqab coexist with those who dress very liberally. “By the time you spend two or four years there, ek acceptance develop ho jaati hai — which is actually what Pakistan needs most.”
Mobilink, Zong, and the startup feeling
After graduating in 2004, Fahad moved to Islamabad and joined Mobilink as an assistant brand manager for Jazz — skipping the management trainee rung that most MBA graduates start on. The role gave him access to large budgets, major directors, and prominent artists. His first project was finding a new Jazz Girl for the brand’s campaigns.
Two years in, he moved to Zong — then being relaunched after China’s takeover of Paktel. The team was small, the office modest, and the brand name, when it was revealed, caused collective dismay. “Hum saare ek kamre mein sar pakad ke baith gaye the — yaar is naam ke saath hum kya kar sakte hain?”
What followed was one of the most consequential periods of his career. Fahad was sitting in engineering meetings, directing where cell towers should be placed, coordinating a full company launch rather than just a marketing campaign. “It was literally the whole company launch,” he tells Muzamil. Within the first three months, Zong hit five million subscribers. The experience gave him something the Mobilink years had not: the conviction that he could build something from scratch.
“Pehle aap soch rahe the yaar achha main yeh kar sakta hoon, main isse zyada nahin kar sakta. Phir yeh hua keh yaar, I can do this as well.”
Why processed milk is still less than 10% of Pakistan’s market
After returning to Lahore for family reasons — his mother had been diagnosed with cancer — Fahad joined Nestle Pakistan and spent a decade in the dairy business, including nearly five and a half years as marketing manager for Everyday, the tea whitener that is, as he puts it, present at every occasion in Pakistani life regardless of income, gender, or mood.
Muzamil raises a question that has long puzzled him: despite decades of investment by companies like Nestle, why does packaged milk still account for less than 10% of the market? Fahad’s answer is layered. In smaller cities and rural areas, milk is a home-grown business — the local supplier extends credit, collects payment at month’s end, and operates at a price point that packaged milk cannot match. There is also the practice of stretching milk with water, which further reduces cost. “Affordability becomes a key,” Fahad says, and when inflation rises, consumers who were using both loose and packaged milk simply shift back to the cheaper option.
The generational dimension matters too. Fahad describes his own father, who had used packaged milk for years, reverting to a local supplier after retirement — drawn back by the taste, the cream on top, the familiar ritual. “Humari generation mein people who are used to the dabbe wala — wo wapas nahin kar pa rahe taste ki wajah se.” Some market shifts, he concludes, happen only generationally.
Tea, the forex crisis, and why local production is harder than it sounds
Later in the discussion, Muzamil raises the debate that had been circulating online at the time of recording: that Pakistanis should drink less tea to reduce the import bill and ease pressure on foreign reserves. Fahad acknowledges the import burden is real — Pakistan does not grow enough tea domestically to meet demand — but is candid about the limits of his knowledge on the agricultural specifics.
What he does offer is a market-logic argument. If growing tea locally were straightforward and profitable, someone would already be doing it at scale. People build dairy farms, chicken farms, and sheds when the business case exists. “Toh chai ke case mein bhi agar if it’s so easy to do, then you would see everyone.” The absence of a domestic tea industry suggests the conditions are not yet conducive, though he stops short of diagnosing exactly why.
Coffee’s slow capture of Pakistan’s moments
Fahad moved from dairy to lead the Nescafe business, and Muzamil asks him to explain what it actually means to try to build a coffee culture in a country where tea is, as Fahad puts it, “DNA mein hai.”
The answer is not about replacing tea. It is about moments. “Aap jab doston ke saath kahin bahar ja rahe hote hain toh aap hamesha kehte ho yaar, let’s go out for coffee.” Nobody says that about tea. Coffee has acquired an association with professional settings, social mobility, and a certain kind of aspiration — partly driven, Fahad acknowledges, by what young Pakistanis consume on Netflix and YouTube. “Hum logon ne — let’s admit it — hum goron se inspired hain. Har cheez mein hum waise hi banana chahte hain.”
The cafe culture expanding across Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad, Hyderabad, and Multan is, paradoxically, both a challenge and an opportunity for Nescafe. Rising cafe prices push some consumers toward affordable at-home options like the three-in-one sachet, which retails at around thirty-five rupees and is manufactured locally in Pakistan even though the raw coffee is imported. “Even price hoke ek aam aadmi bhi chalis rupaye mein, paintees rupaye mein khareed sakta hai.”
On Nescafe Basement, Muzamil and Fahad agree that the platform’s value was its restraint. Unlike Coke Studio, which became ubiquitous, Nescafe Basement retained an indie credibility that served the brand well. “It gave the brand a big hipster feel,” Fahad says. Many artists who later appeared in mainstream music had their start there. Whether the platform returns is left open — “hopefully soon” — but Fahad is clear that its distinctiveness was not accidental.
The vocational school built in his mother’s memory
By the end of the conversation, Muzamil asks about something entirely separate from Fahad’s corporate career: a school he runs in Lahore. The origin is personal. Fahad’s mother, who had co-founded a school in Gulberg when he was young and spent her life working for underprivileged women, was diagnosed with cancer at a late stage and died within a year. He and his brother, who works for Pepsi and was posted in Hong Kong at the time, wanted to do something that honoured her mission.
In 2015, they learned that a school in an impoverished Lahore neighbourhood — one that had been running for fifteen to twenty years before closing when its elderly founder could no longer manage it — was available to restart. The original staff was still reachable. Within a month and a half, Fahad had it running again.
The school offers vocational training: tailoring, embroidery, beautician courses. The neighbourhood it serves has high rates of street children, substance use among youth, and domestic abuse. Fahad describes women who arrived unable to state their own names with confidence and who now run home-based beauty parlours or tailor shops, some of them employing other graduates of the same school. He shared one such story at a TED talk.
The school is funded through friends, family, small fundraisers, and — when nothing else comes through — Fahad and his brother’s own money. During COVID, they continued paying staff salaries even while the school was closed. “Jab aap logon ke liye bagair kisi material benefit ke koi kaam karte hain na, toh aapke raaste aise khulte hain keh aap imagine bhi nahin kar sakte.”
His ambition for it is not scale but sustainability — connecting the school’s graduates to retail vendors who could use their products as a backend supply chain, generating income that eventually makes the institution self-funding. “Jo cheez main nahin chahta woh yeh hai keh jitna yeh school pehle band ho gaya tha — woh nahin hona chahiye.”
Muzamil closes by asking Fahad — correctly guessing him to be around forty-two — how he sees Pakistan twenty years from now. The answer is optimistic, grounded in what he observes in the generation below him: twelve-year-olds already thinking about income streams, traditional business families beginning to think beyond Pakistan’s borders, and an ecosystem of incubators and startups that did not exist when he was that age. “Despite all the troubles — dollar going haywire, fuel going haywire — I am very hopeful and optimistic that it is headed in the right direction.”
Full transcript
सामने ख़बाज़ी ना स्रात welcome back to another episode of Thought Bent. Thanks आज मैं सिमर्थ्य मौजूद है एक बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान all the way from लोहौर who is part of a brand जिसके बारे में मेरे बड़े सवाल आते हैं and I thought कि you know इनसे पुछ लिए जाएं finally someone from their team is here. Just to give a small वैसे हम disclaimer बड़ा से दिया नहीं है लेकिन हम दे देते हैं. हमारी कोई भी podcast sponsor नहीं होती this is also not sponsored. हमने कोई पैसा नहीं लिया brand से. You know, just wanted to have that understanding of what what they're doing and what's happening. मोहम्मद फाहद is with us today. He's the head of business at Nescafe or Nestle Pakistan. Sir, you so much for being part of the show. Hello, असामुलिकुम. फ़ायद भैया, I going to start the conversation. We are sort of trying to understand. अगर थोड़ा सा मुझे आप बताएं अपनी early life के बारे में, you know, where were you born? Where did you grow up?
I was born in लाहौर. So, मैं पूरी लाहौरी हूं. I studied in लाहौर, college in लाहौर. I have lived outside लाहौर for about five years for work. ठीक है. But other than that, I have spent most of my life in लाहौर. तो पक्के आप लाहौरी. पक्के लाहौरी. लाहौरी. Schooling आपने कहां से थी लोहौर में? लोहौर में जी. मैं there was a small school in गुलबर्ग called National Finishing School and my mother was actually, she co founded that school with very close family friends. So that's where I had my schooling. Then I I went to FC college. I spent two years there. And and then it's a funny story that my elder brother, he was a cost and management accountant. Right. And so after like you know जब आप FSC कर रहे होते हैं तो आप सोच रहे होते हैं यार कि क्या करना चाहिए और सच्ची बात है कि उस वक़्त हम यह सोचते थे कि यार यह नहीं सोचते थे कि हमारा interest किस चीज़ में है. ज़्यादा यह सोचते थे कि यार कौन सी degree लेंगे तो नौकरी अच्छी मिल जाएगी. That's how we used to think. Just
feel like that's not the metric for success. Yes. You know you can play your own way. But you're absolutely right कि for most part degrees in Pakistan और even career choice in Pakistan is just like कि यार कहां पर नौकरी मिल जाएगी and कहां से पैसे कमा लेंगे? बिल्कुल but I think things have changed now. Right. अब जो
लोग हैं, जो students निकलकर आ रहे हैं young people who are coming out, they have choices because the internet and all of those things. हमारे पास मुझे याद है उस वक़्त दो तीन बातें होती थी या फौज में चले जाओ या engineering कर लो या pre medical कर लो. So, anyways I ended up choosing pre engineering. Right. And after that, sorry? कौन सा साल था यह? This was 1994.
Ok.
So, way back. Right. And and so interestingly pre engineering की FC college से उसके बाद my brother he was very successful अपनी पढ़ाई, चढ़ाई में. I wasn't as studious as he was clearly. So, he basically advised me कि यार तुम chartered accountancy कर लो because इसमें जब आप करके निकलोगे तो नौकरी नौकरी है, line लग जाएगी नौकरियों की और बड़े अच्छे पैसे. So, this was the thought. ख़ैर I started doing that and interestingly I passed the first, उस वक़्त होता था they used to call it FE one and FE two. Right. CA enter वन जाता था, वह half CA हो जाता था. So, I passed the first one and then I got stuck in the second one. अच्छा. और I still remember कि एक tax का paper होता था. I couldn't pass that. Even today मुझे अपनी salary में से tax कैसे deduct होता है? नहीं समझ आता. So there was one one time I tried three times by the way. अच्छा. So, I spend about two and a half year. I really, मेरा ख्याल है मैंने अपनी ज़िंदगी में पढ़ाई अगर कभी की थी तो वह उन दो सालों में की थी. और आपने जान मारी थी रुस्ते में? बहुत जान मारी थी और इतनी जान मारने के बावजूद भी failure था तो that was a big disappointment to be honest. Yeah and I blow to your self esteem as well कि यार why can't Absolutely-absolutely. I do मतलब I don't remember ग्यारह ग्यारह घंटे काम करना, पढ़ाई करना. So, it was very difficult and to be honest I realized after a while कि this was not my cup of tea. आपका आपकी एक personality match भी होता है, एक aptitude भी होता है तो वह I realized कि it wasn't for me. So उसके बाद then I completed my bachelor's and then I had My bachelor's and what? I did a private bachelor's. I had to save time because I had some So, kind of like a BSc, BA? Yeah, it was a simple BSc economics, journalism. Right. All that and उसके बाद यह कि then MBA was on my mind. So, by that time I had realized कि यार मैं थोड़ा सा marketing type बनता हूं because of my early experiences and all of that. So, some guidance from my brother and some friends and cousins in the family. उसके बाद मैंने I did some internships. Again, मैंने भाई से मदद मांगी, Unilever में internship की, एक दो जगह और internship की और I applied MBA for from abroad and also from lumps. Right. So, खैर I ended up, getting into lumps. और यह कौन सा साल था? This was 2002.
अच्छा. So Lums MBA is competitive?
It was competitive and, it's a funny story also that, on the day of my interview, I got very late. I used to live very far off from lumps और I was a careless guy back then. I've changed now because मैं नौकरी कर रहा हूं बहुत अदस्ते से. I can't afford to be careless. तो I I still remember कि मेरा चार बजे interview था and somehow मैं late निकला और नहीं मैं निकला time पर और half to halfway I realize कि मैंने अपने documents घर बोला हूं. And lumps के interview में you need to have your original documents with you. Right. तो अब मैं सोच रहा हूं मैं वापस जाऊं या चला जाऊं बगैर. फिर नहीं भी I decided कि यार नहीं documents तो लेकर जाने हैं. खैर I turned back. मैंने अपने documents लिए और मैं पहुंच गया वहां पर. जब मैं lumps पहुंचाऊं तो incidentally मेरा आख़िरी interview था उस दिन का और जब मैं enter हुआ उस block में जहां पर interview होना था तो it the people were leaving and there was a कोई reception थी receptionist थी वहां पर. उसने मुझे कहा कि are you here for the interview? क्योंकि मैंने tie लगाई हुई थी I was हक्का पक्का तो उसको समझ आ गई थी तो कहती है but the panel has left already. तो anyways I was obviously under a lot of stress उसने मुझे कहा wait करें मैं देखता हूं, देखती हूं. खैर they came back. उसके बाद जब मैं room में enter हूं तो you have no idea कि मैं जैसी room में enter हूं three very senior scary looking guys. They looked at me और उन्होंने मुझे बैठने का भी नहीं गाव. उन्होंने मुझे कहा कि do you think कि आप मतलब lumps में पंद्रह minute या दस minute late interview देने आओगे और हम आपको admission दे देंगे. So, I don't know what happened. I I told them कि I gave him a very strong story. मैंने कहा जी my car broke down and आप मुझे बताएंगे there are there are controllables in life and then there are uncontrollables life in in life. मैंने कहा मैं I live forty five minutes away. मैं घंटा सवा घंटा पहले निकला margin रख के. रास्ते मेरी गाड़ी खराब होगी. अब मैं गाड़ी वहाँ पर छोड़ के तो नहीं आ सकता था. तो मुझे कुछ mechanic को phone करना था. So so that's the reason why I I got late. अगर आप मेरी जगह होते तो आप क्या करते? Anyways the way interview went fine और got the letter the very next day. अच्छा. Usually lumps के interview में यह होता है कि they keep you. Most people either they if they wanna if they sure about not keeping you आपको letter भेज देंगे rejection का और if they are sure about you तो अगले दिन आपको acceptance का letter भेज देता हूं. I got it the next day. Maybe the car maybe they are getting late Actually, you this is what exactly happened. बाद में जब admission हो गया and जो professors वहां पर थे उनके साथ मेरी hello आयी होगी. One of them was a marketing professor. अहसान उलाख उनका नाम है अभी भी he is very famous. उनसे मैंने फिर बाद में बताया कि जी यह made up story थी. तो उन्होंने मुझे कहा कि यार I don't care because the way you responded under pressure that was the key and that कहता है that was the point we decided कि यार नहीं the guy knows how to be, how to handle a pressure situation. So, I don't know. Mean I think it was an interesting story that I keep telling people about it कि यार this is how it happened. हां, just पेट. Probably the only-only person who got into lumps even after preaching for the retreat. For the admission interview पंद्रह minute late. Yeah yeah. So. So how was lumps generally? It was really really I mean मैं यह कह सकता हूं कि शायद मैंने जितनी भी पढ़ाई की lumps से पहले मैंने class में interest नहीं लिया कभी. I was always a backbencher. मतलब चिरारतें करना, तंग करना, skip कर जाना. But somehow मुझे बड़ा एक at home feeling आई lumps के अंदर. Because एक तो यह था कि जो MBA lumps में होता है it's a very, it's a case study.
Based model, it's not like a very structured.
आपको theory नहीं पढ़ाते. Right. वह आपके साथ रोज़ एक case discuss करते हैं, real life case और real life case is like जो आप day to day चीज़ें चला रहे होते हैं कि जी इसने यह कर दिया, एक company में यह हो गया, फलाना हो गया तो decisions लेने हैं. मुझे एक general feeling थी कि यार if I am following the conversation I can contribute well. हालांकि वहां पर I remember कि मेरी class में 70 odd लोग थे और मतलब काफ़ी competent लोग थे. कोई बाहर से आया हुआ है, कोई four four GPA वाला है, army के लोग थे, वापड़ा के लोग थे. So it was a pretty hefty bunch. शुरू में मैं थोड़ा सा घबरा भी गया था कि यार इतने पढ़ाकू लोगों में फ़ंस गया हूं. मेरा पता नहीं क्या बनेगा यहां पर लेकिन I realized कि यार it's not about कि आपको theory कितनी आती है. It's more about कि आप how street smart you are, आप practical situations, practical problems को solve कर सकते Problem solving आपकी कितनी आती है? Problems. So इसलिए मैं class को enjoy करता था. Right. And that was the first time और दूसरी बात यह है कि I think लाम्ज़ एक ऐसी जगह है जो आपको एक personality building, confidence building बहुत ज़्यादा सिखाती है. Even आपको basic जो कुछ certain चीज़ें होती हैं जो आपकी behavioral चीज़ें होती मतलब मैं आपको छोटी सी example देता हूं. इस्लामs में आप littering नहीं कर सकते, ठीक है? अगर आपने उस जमाने की बात करा हूं this is like I don't know what fifteen, seventeen years, eighteen years back. उस अगर कोई बंदा गाम का paper फेंकता हुआ पकड़ा जाए ना तो उसको मेरे ख़याला पांच सौ या हज़ार रुपए fine होता था. अच्छा. And to be to I'll I'll be honest मैं इतना particular नहीं था इस चीज़ के बारे में. लेकिन lumps के दो साल गुज़ारने because I used to live in the dorms as well. मैंने दो साल वहीं गुज़ारे. तो मैं मैंने वह एक चीज़ ऐसी सीखी other than many other things but I'm just giving you an example कि मैंने ज़िंदगी में उसके बाद litter नहीं किया कभी. मेरी गाड़ी में जितना मर्ज़ी गंद पड़ा हो मैं हमेशा लिफाफ़े में डालकर रखता हूं और जब तक कोई bin ना आए I will never throw and this is the same thing मैं अपने बच्चों को भी अब आगे सिखा रहा हूं. So कहने का मतलब यह है कि it's a it's a really an institution which not only teaches you कि MBA में क्या होता है but it's a character building thing. Generally लम्ज़ at least in the pop culture in modern day gets a lot of flack
for you know अच्छा burger बच्चे Pakistan के REIT लोग वहां पर जाते हैं and and I know that your story is very different, right? Like you're not necessarily that quintessential lumps kid. Not at all. जो कि एक private school से बड़े प्यारे तरीके से DHA में रहने वाला उसके बाद private school से graduate करके lumps में घुस गया. For you that that experience really aided I would say in in your career as well as your personality as you have. Absolutely. How would you, I mean, so how would you respond to that?
Everything with the same brush, right? And so how would you say your experience? देखिए I would मैं आपकी बात से 100% agree करता हूं कि you have to be there to only only then you can explain what it is. देखिए यह बिल्कुल ग़लत एक this is a complete misconception. Lumps में आपको कोएटा के किसी दूर प्राज़ गांव के लोग भी मिलेंगे. आपको हर तरह के the whole concept of lumps is to create diversity. Right. जहां पर हर तरह के लोग मिलते हैं. दूसरी बात मैं आपको interesting बात बताता हूं कि दूसरी diversity जो आपको lumps में मिलती है ना lumps को आपको lumps में आपको एक complete बुर्के वाली लड़कियां भी मिलेंगी जिनकी you can only see the eyes, And then you can also see girls जो कि very मतलब very liberal. They dress up very liberally and they all coexist. ऐसा नहीं है कि उनकी आपस में लड़ाई हो रही है. वह आपको सिखाते यह हैं कि यार everyone has a choice. You cannot tell people कि यार यह पहनो, ऐसे बोलो, यह करो, यह ना करो. This is the beauty of lumps. तो इसलिए और by the time आप अगर bachelors में हो या masters में हो आप दो साल या चार साल लगाकर जब आप बाहर निकलते हो हाथ में एक acceptance develop हो जाती है which is great which is actually mean that's fair. Pakistan के period in the Pakistan. Pakistan के culture या Pakistan के context में तो यह हमारा probably सबसे बड़ा मसला है कि एक मौलवी अच्छा भी हो सकता है, बुरा भी हो सकता है. एक modern लड़का या लड़की अच्छे भी हो सकते हैं, बुरे भी हो सकते हैं. मगर हमारा मसला यह है कि they are not willing to talk to each other. Because उन्होंने stereotype बनाया कि यार इसकी दाढ़ी है.
Far as this creating that harmony is concerned. Makes sense. Two years your, you did your MBA. Yes. And I believe graduated in 2004.
I graduated in 2004. So उसके बाद में what was the journey like after that? उसके बाद मैं आपके शहर में आ गया था इस्तामवाद में. अच्छा. And I still remember कि mobiling was my first job और यहां पर blue area में पड़ा एक शानदार office होता था और मुझे याद है कि मैं interview देने के लिए आया था तो they sent me a ticket. बड़ा अच्छा लगा कि आज जहाज का ticket भेजा है. हां.
Company ने. और बड़ा वो यह boom time भी था ना telecom का अलग अलग. I
was very lucky कि मैं उस time पर mobiling आया मतलब the office was so fancy कि मैं मतलब honestly मैं बहुत impress हो गया था. मैंने कहा यार this is the place to work और बहुत अच्छा time भी था. They used to hire the best people back then. अभी भी अच्छा है वैसे but those times mobiling was the giant. तो I came here first time out of लाहौर I lived in इस्लामाबाद
और हर weekend पर मैं लाहौर चला जाता था because weekend मुझे लाहौर में मज़ा आता था. इस्लामाबाद में generally I mean I feel like it's difficult also to to make new friends. Yes. People are not that open के foreign वन जाएंगे. They take some time. Yeah, you're right. But but
इस्तामाबाद की एक बात है it grows on you. Yeah. So, मैं I lived here for five years, five and a half years और जब मैं वापस जा रहा था मैं बहुत खुश था but there are few things जो मुझे बड़ी याद आती हैं अभी भी. एक बात जो मैं हमेशा हर बंदे को कहता हूं वह यह है कि इस्लामाद is the only city in Pakistan जहां पर आप
की जो probably अच्छा मैं generally यह कहता हूं कि सलाहाबाद की सबसे ज़्यादा खूबसूरती और सलाहाबाद का सबसे negative feature जो है ना वह यह है कि वह आप वह सुकून ही है और वह अभी पिछले खप वगैरह हो जाए but it's a city thing because वो सुकून से ये होता है कि you get into अगर आपने सही intellectual सोच में जाना है creative सोच में जाना है तो आपको वो सुकून चाहिए होता है. बिल्कुल. आप खप में नहीं कर सकते creativity and बहुत सारा. नुकसान उसका यह है कि आप complacent हो जाते हैं. कहते हैं easy चलो ज़िंदगी चल रही है कोई tension ही नहीं है. लाहौर and कराची really keep you on your toes. Yes. You know you are constantly like कि यार I have to be a top of my game. गुस्सा हो जाते हैं but I think the king of food is लोहौर. I don't think it's कराची. People say it's कराची. Yeah. I feel like कराची has a lot of मसाला. कराची has its own flavor. I don't think that's necessarily better. I think diversity is in law where you can get a lot of different flavors. You can get the spicy Karachi feels also but you can also get some of that northern five and half and how is mobiling generally as a working experience?
It was very good because I mean to be honest मैं as an ABM गया था assistant brand manager but first job आमतौर पर लोग management trainee बनकर जाते हैं in in in their after their MBAs. तो वह काफी रगड़ा type scene होता है शुरू में. But मेरा बड़ा different था because I became an ABM and I became the ABM for jazz पर Jazz was a huge brand. Right. तो मतलब I got a very good exposure. Plus यह था कि Mobilling was a very rich company. तो I got a lot of money to spend because as a brand manager या assistant brand manager या marketing में आपको मज़ा तभी आता जब आपके पास पैसे हों. आप महंगे ads बना सकें, नए events So बड़े बड़े events कर all those things I could do anything. Mean I mean that was how it is और obviously there was a ask with it कि आपने जो चीज़ करनी है यह नहीं कि बस पैसे लगा रहे हैं. और KPIs and whatnot. KPIs हैं but but I enjoyed my work and I think I learnt a lot of production related work जो कि marketing के अंदर communication और production एक बड़ा important leg होता है और वह मैंने I think बहुत ज़्यादा सीखा while I was in mobiling because I got exposed to the big directors, big artists. So fancy काम भी था, बड़े बड़े artist हैं, jazz girl. पहला project मेरा था जी,
नई Jazz Girl ढूंढनी है. मैंने कहा that's an interesting project to start off with. Interesting. So yeah, it was a very good experience. And some of the folks at Jazz at the time जो आपके seniors होंगे या वह होंगे. I am sure they must have gone to like places. Yes. Because I was
They have, they have and I think people मेरा यह था कि मुझे लोहौर जाने का बहुत शौक था. जो लोग telecom में रहे, probably वह मेरे से ज़्यादा तेज़ निकल गए आगे, which is fine. I had a choice to make. I took that choice. कुछ family reasons भी थे. But but they have done well. I think most of them are at very good positions. Pakistan में भी हैं, बाहर भी हैं. मेरे बहुत काफ़ी दोस्त हैं, मेरे class fellows भी हैं. So, they are doing very well और वो जो वो जो उस time का एक batch था, I think they all ended up being in in good positions generally. Yeah. Because अच्छा exposure मिला था and they got good
learnings out of those years. And so why do you I mean five and a half years in telco boom market है, bull run है essentially and and you decide to at the time I mean 2004 में. 2010.
10 में आपने छोड़ा है. So end of 2,004 में मैं इस्तामबाद आया था. उसके बाद by the way I changed my job to Zhong as well. अच्छा. So I spent two years in Zhong also जो कि basically मैं brand manager था Zhong का. ठीक है. और I was the one who launched Zhong in Pakistan. अच्छा. जब मैंने China ने takeover किया Paktel को और so वह भी बड़ा एक interesting experience था और I remember मेरे जो boss थे उनको बड़ा I mean I always value him सलमान वासे उनका नाम है. चाय खाना he owns चाय खाना में. अच्छा अच्छा अच्छा. उनके साथ हमने एक छोटी सी team होती थी. छोटा सा दफ्तर होता था इधर blue area में. और वहां बैठकर हम पांच छह लोगों ने पूरी company literally company launch की, brand launch नहीं किया. हां हां. और मुझे आज भी याद है कि जब हमें पता लगा कि जिस brand को हमने launch करना उसका नाम है. तो हम सारे एक कमरे में सर पकड़कर बैठ गए थे यार इस नाम के साथ हम क्या कर सकते हैं? But then we did a lot of good things and today Zong is one of the big biggest या probably second number पर है. Welcome. तो वह भी बड़ा एक interesting experience और I think probably मेरे वह दस महीने of relaunch और launch was a very defining moment in my career because I got to do a lot of things. It was not about सिर्फ marketing करनी है या ads बनाने हैं या communication करनी है या packages design करने हैं. It was literally the whole company launch. So it was like a starter y? It was a yes. It was a because मैं मुझे याद है कि मैं engineers की meeting में बैठा होता था और I would tell them कि यार आपने अपना sell side इस इधर लगानी है, इधर नहीं लगानी है, इधर नहीं लगानी इधर लगानी है. So it felt I got the feeling of being in a way Sir, वह business administration वाला element है ना आपके वह जो एक element आता है ना कि यार honestly speaking रात दो दो बजे तक मैं काम कर रहा होता था किसी pressure के बगैर. क्योंकि बड़ा एक वह एक एक एक ownership थी. So startup mindset जब होता है ना तो I think it's a different feeling. Yeah. और अल्लाह का शुक्र है कि वह बहुत successful भी रहा. It's considered one of the most successful launch launches for in telecom. I I still remember कि पहले तीन महीने में हमने कोई पांच million subscriber का number hit किया था. अच्छा. तो काफी वो interesting times थे and I think I learned a lot in those times and they really जैसे कहते हैं ना कि some experiences in your life आप बड़ा सोचना शुरू हो जाते हो. So that was those. You begin your dream sort of. Yes, यार I can do this as well. उससे पहले आप सोच रहे थे यार अच्छा मैं यह कर सकता हूँ, मैं इससे ज़्यादा नहीं कर सकता. I feel like this is a very important aspect because in Pakistan a lot of people that I see
they are literally stuck not because of their abilities but their abilities or or their belief in themselves कि they can whether whether they can 100%. Fully agree. So many people I see in Pakistan जो कि Pakistan में they are just honestly like living away and then they get an opportunity to go to like let's say US or Canada or whatever और वहां जाकर they are shining and वह पता ही लगता है कि यार वहां जाकर उनको बस एक environment ऐसा मिला जिसमें it was conducive for growth and they grew
but Pakistan में I guess the hope is missing or the I think मैं इसको इस तरह से देखता हूं कि it's not so much about hope. It's it's I think it's it's about identifying your aptitude early. Right. जिस तरह मैंने आपको शुरू में बताया ना कि मैं CA के पीछे लग गया. मेरा मैं नहीं आज तक मुझे नहीं समझ आती उन चीज़ों की. But मैं लग गया पीछे because मुझे awareness नहीं थी. अगर मुझे early कोई guidance बेहतर मिलती या exposure होता जैसा अब है exposure. अब लोगों को पता है अब आप बात करें young people they know what they want. Yeah. कि मैंने यार blogger बनना है, मैंने podcast शुरू करनी है, मैंने videos production करनी है, मैंने engineer बनना है, जो भी बनना है. हां. I feel कि लोगों को ना because of the internet, because of the exposure, they can see what is happening in The US. हमारे हमारे time पर इतना access नहीं थी चीज़ों की. आपको नहीं पता लगता था जब आप चीज़ें देखते हैं, जब आप expose होते हैं, you you do certain things then you realize कि यार हां यह काम है जो मैं अच्छा कर सकता हूं. तो so I think this is main this is the main reason और मैं लोगों को young young लोगों को यही advice करता हूं हमेशा जो भी career start करें कि यार find a mentor, find someone other than your access to information on data and everything. But find a mentor जिसको भी आप idealize करते हो या थोड़ा सा inspire होते हो उससे बैठकर बात करो. उसको बताओ कि आपकी क्या dreams aspirations हैं. I think वह आपको बहुत अच्छा guide करेगा. It makes a big difference. So मेरे ख़याल से तो this is an important part कि आप early pickup कर लेंगे यार आप किस तरह जाना चाहते and then to be honest मेरी ज़िंदगी में I enjoy sports. अगर मैं अगर मुझे याद है मैं football बहुत खेलता था अभी भी अब ख़ैर बहुत काम कर दिया अब उतनी उतनी जान ही रही football खेलनी में लेकिन कभी कभी कभी भी खेलता हूं. But मैं उस वक़्त यह सोचता था college में मैं team में था फिर नाम से भी मैं खेला. मैं सोचता था यार अगर यहां पर career होता football का तो मैं तो football के पीछे जान लोग cricket के पीछे अपनी ज़िंदगी लगाते हैं. It's a chance they take. अगर football का कोई scope होता तो मैं ज़रूर यह करता. So मुझे पता था यह चीज़ है लेकिन खैर यह भी problem है कि बहुत सारी चीज़ों में scope नहीं है. आप करना चाहते हैं लेकिन नहीं. But other than that I think the marketing thing, the communication thing I realize कि यह भी मेरे personality हां record is one thing right? It's not just कि यार वह football ही थी और अगर मुझे मिल जाती तो it's really about having those best case scenario and then second and third and fourth and उसके हिसाब से आप incrementally एक balance ढूंढते हैं उस As long as आप you are near what you want अगर वह exactly वह नहीं भी है तो कोई बात नहीं. आप aptitude आपका है और I can tell you कि seventeen years working I don't know maybe एक दो साल beach में tough आए होंगे आते हैं but I have really enjoyed my work. अच्छा. And मुझे मतलब कोई pressure लगा कभी नहीं लगा कि यार मैं क्यों काम कर रहा हूं? मतलब there been very few instances जहां पर ऐसा हुआ है but other than that I I feel I'm lucky कि मुझे वह काम मिला जो मैं enjoy करता हूं. Have you, so-so when you were in इस्लामाबाद did you, had you gotten married at the time? I did towards the later part. So तीन साल मैं इस्लामाबाद में अकेला था. उसके बाद I got married.
So last two years मैंने जो यहां पर गुज़ारे I was married. अच्छा and I mean after you were married and and so what I am to is देखिए अकेला लड़का होता है ना तो वह कहता है कि यार ज़िंदगी में यहां पर कोई clubs आपकी family होती है तो Pakistan में it's a very familiar society as well for this particular reason. Then you spend more time with your family, your kids and so on and so forth and so that's when you the work life balance वाली situation सामने करने में zong में जाकर I was there too and so how did you manage that you are in the corporate you are still in the corporate and corporate is not easy right? Like corporate में तो अभी मैं देख रहा था जब post covid एक तो पहले फिर भी कोई time होता था covid के बाद तो मजाक ही वन गया ना कि रात के दो दो बजे भी कल ये हो जाए परसों तक का ad तियार हो मैंने कहा यार आप लोग are you guys for real like what's going on? बस यही था कि like because work was work and जब वो boundaries हटी तो it was all open right so how did you manage that? And do you, are you still able to manage that? Or do you think your work life is a? So, देखिए मेरा हमेशा से
एक कोशिश यह रही है हमेशा कि मैं एक balance लेकर चलूं. Because I और जिस चीज़ ने मुझे help किया है ना जो आप बात कर रहे हैं obviously stresses होते हैं, pressures होते हैं but मेरा way out is playing sports और जब मैं इस्तामाबाद में भी था तो जो मेरा time evening का होता था I would go and play football. हमने जोंग की team बनाई हुई थी moblink भी maybe football खेलते थे. So it whatever stress I used to have during the day by the time मैं football खेल के वापस आता था it was all gone. अच्छा. सुबह मैं fresh होता था और it has worked for me ever since I was a little kid. उसके बाद लाहौर चला गया. अब मैंने sports को थोड़ा सा interesting बात यह है कि मेरी actually while in इस्लामाद I had a knee injury. अच्छा. क्योंकि मैं काफ़ी passionate हूं sports के बारे में तो मैं काफ़ी competitive खेलता हूं. तो I still remember कि हमारी किसी embassy की team के साथ match था आज़र भाईजान embassy की team के साथ हमारा final match था corporate tournament था. उसमें मुझे एक बंदे ने नीचे गिराया और मेरा ligament tear हो गया और full tear हो गया. Oh my god. और ligament अगर आपका ACL टूट जाए तो फिर आप football नहीं खेल सकते for a good time. Right. So then it took me about eight months to recover. I went through the whole एक बड़े अच्छे doctor लाहौर में होते हैं. उन्होंने मुझे बहुत help किया और मैं I went through the whole recuperation और swimming और पता नहीं क्या. बड़ा religiously मुझे किया. मैंने कहा that I can do. I am happy to do that. खैर फिर उसके बाद obviously the age is also catching up. तो I realize कि यार football मैं सारी ज़िंदगी नहीं खेल सकता. So I have to find something else because अगर मैं sports ना खेलूं तो मैं then start की reluctantly और अब यह है कि it's my new passion. Yeah. कि अब मैं मतलब I am thinking about it.
तो यह फिर तो swing करवाता
scene है कि my brother or my cousins who play golf, वह अगर Dubai में भी रहते ना वह अपनी kit लेकर आऐंगे. वह इस्लामाबाद का तीन दिन का visit होगा वह सुबह छह बजे उठेंगे. मैं अभी इस्लामाबाद अपने bag में अपनी kit रखकर लेकर आऊं. I will go and play. I have played already. Yeah. So this I this is not for Pakistan only. मैं जहां भी जाता हूं I have played in शायद मेरा ख्याला पंद्रह बीस शहरों में तो मैं खेल चुका हूं globally. हां. मेरी यह होता कि मैं जहां भी गया हूं ना, I have to go to a golf. Yeah, it's a very interesting accident. So it's an addiction मतलब मैं आपको यह बता रहा हूं कि मैं सुबह पांच बजे जून में दुनिया की किसी चीज़ के लिए शायद नमाज़ के लिए उठना चाहिए नहीं उठता वैसे लेकिन golf is the only thing जिसके लिए मैं सुबह पांच बजे उठता हूं. अच्छा. Because गर्मी गर्मियों में it's very hard to play during the day time. पांच बजे उठता हूं और नौ बजे, four hours, four and a half hours and I am back in, back home by 09:30. So and I all throughout the week I am looking forward to that weekend coming. So, बात यह है कि जो stress reliever है ना वह आपका एक ज़िंदगी में होना चाहिए. अब वह अगर आप मेरे लिए sports है, किसी और के लिए music हो सकता है, किसी और के लिए कोई और activity हो सकती है. Could be anything, singing हो सकती है, anything. तो मेरे ख्याल से unless you have something other than work only, you can enjoy your work but you still need something else. Right. जिस जो आपको kick देता हो, जो आपको look forward करने में help करे, that is always, that has always worked for me. So, मुझे मुझे sports खेलने की वजह से I think I have been able to मुझे बहुत सारे लोगों और वहां जाकर मैं I am I do everything and You are as wild as a cat. Yes, I am as wild as a cat and then the next day or that evening I am fine. So that that that's my kind of recipe in a way. Makes sense. Islamabad जब आपने छोड़ा and you moved from jazz to or song to Nestle. Nestle. So that was your next one. So that was my move back to लोहौर. I had some family situation as well. My mother was ill so I had to move back. मेरी preference भी वैसे लौह रही थी but जो urgency create हुई वह because of that हुई. So I moved, I got an opportunity. It wasn't I mean let's just say कि अगर पांच साढ़े पांच साल लगाने के बाद I could have gotten something better here in telecom. Right. I got a decent opening but उतनी higher level की वजह कोई industry switch होती है तो आपका कहीं ना कहीं तो आप लगाने But I had no regrets because I had a reason moving there and and ten years, eleven years down the road I am very happy that I made that choice because I really enjoyed my last ten, eleven years in नस्ले. And so where did you start in नस्ले? So I started in the dairy business और I think मैंने तकरीबन दस साल dairy में काम किया different brands के ऊपर और it was quite interesting because Nestle Pakistan में जो है वह primarily dairy brand ही है. हाँ. Dairy business ही है even 60% business हमारा 6070%
business जो है वह. Dairy है. Dairy है. और dairy is I mean the infrastructure and the the वह is huge like they are coordinating from as simple as कि एक गायब to a simple farmer in a Yes.
नस्वीटा आता है, creams आती हैं. So, ये मतलब बड़े brands तीन चार पांच यही हैं. And all of that is sourced in Pakistan? These are all made locally. अच्छा.
जो इनका वो आता है आपका naan
formula? वह that's a separate business. That's not dairy. That's nutrition business. उसमें भी I think majority I am not part of that business but majority of the products are made in Pakistan. Some of them are imported but I think
lots of portfolio is fairly complicated. It's not as simple ना वो आप जो formula business है उसके
formula में. Yes it is but I think we have good expertise here. We have big factories here. And the plan is to अगर कोई चीज़ अभी भी import हो रही है तो eventually कोशिश यही है because the way whole import के ऊपर जो embargoes लग रही हैं तो it's always better कि आप localize कर लें. हां. So जिस चीज़, जो चीज़ import भी हो रही है वह उसके ऊपर plan यही है कि यार अगर we reach a certain minimum volume तो आप उसको जाता localize कर लें ताकि मतलब win win create हो जाए. मतलब obviously मुल्क के लिए भी बेहतर है. हां. But for from a company perspective also कि अगर उसको duties avoid कर सकते हैं आप तो why not? हां, business case बेहतर है. Business case भी यही बनता है after you achieve a certain minimum volume. Right and what were the roles during that daily raise? Different roles, so brand manager, marketing manager. I spend a lot of time on everyday. आपने मुझे अभी everyday की चाय पिलाई है. तो everyday पर मैंने I spend almost five, five and a half years as a marketing manager. So, quite a enriching experience. It's a big brand, it's an iconic brand. Yeah. और चाय का यह है कि I still remember कि presentations होती थी तो मैं एक video दिखाता होता था जिसमें मैं बताता था कि the only product that cuts across SECs, geographies, genders, अमीर गरीब, अच्छी occasion, sad occasion, चाय के बगैर जो है वह नहीं मिल सकता. मतलब incomplete है कोई भी occasion. चाहे वह ख़ुशी का मौका हो, गम का हो, अकेला moment हो, दोस्तों के साथ हो. तो that's how big is tea is in Pakistan. It's literally और एक ख़राब चाय जो है वह आपका mood बहुत बुरी तरह ख़राब कर सकती है और एक अच्छी चाय आपका mood बहुत तरीके से ठीक कर सकती है. तो so yeah, it was interesting few years that I spent on
that. एक question मेरा FMCG के बारे में हमेशा आता है. And and everyday particularly is the ultimate example for that. I remember I was working in a company back in 2000 and I would say, '19, probably early nineteen. And उन्होंने ना recently for some cost over and I don't know what, they moved from everyday to I think allpers का कोई आता है powdered milk. Either allpers or some other company. Okay. And they shifted and उसकी जायर कोई margins होंगे और जायर बड़ी company डेढ़ सौ बनता है तो उसके ऊपर उन्होंने अपनी accounting की और उन्होंने कहा जी पैसे बचेंगे. And the the the चाय experience was horrifying. Right? Just by the just by changing the milk, the entire flavor changed. Of course. And even when I look at something like let's say Pepsi or Coca Cola, there even that has a variation. So you know, can का flavor different है, bottle का flavor different है. And so on somewhere किसी distribution chain में, supply chain में कहीं ना कहीं flavor के साथ कुछ हो रहा है. When you look at at least brands like Nestle आप milk pack पिएंगे. जो मैं बचपन में milk pack पीता था जो मैं आज पीता था वह same. मैं Cerelec खाऊंगा. वह जो बचपन खाना है घर किसी का एक वह fetish सा होता है कि यार Cerelec का काई कुछ नहीं I know I know I know. Know. Needle same thing
and then every day is every day. Is there कोई कुछ game है? कुछ flavor add कर नहीं यह game रहा नहीं है. I think देखिए इसमें बात यह है simple के these are I mean how do you ensure the flavor to be exactly देखिए यह है कि Nestle is in I don't know one fifty countries जितनी भी मुल्क है मेरा नहीं खाला है शायद ही कोई जगह हो जाना हो and there is a lot of expertise that exist technological expertise और यह कहना आसान है कि हम powder बना लेंगे, needle type चीज़ बना लेंगे but it is not easy. और जो आप बात कर रहे हैं ना कि हर दफा different मतलब एक consistently
same superior taste बनाना आसान काम नहीं है. हाँ मतलब देखिए basic chemistry अगर मैं follow कर रहा हूँ ना मुझे यह ingredient मिल गया यह ingredient down to the last में एक basic एक instrument बनाना it's not as simple as that. It's
not it's the ratio
उसके बाद उसका process. गाय है वो मतलब a lot of people don't know. Nestle का तो as per my understanding वह तो इस level के granularity पर हैं. It's not like they have just these are tons of farms. उन्होंने जाकर गाय मानती है. जिनसे
वह दूध source कर रहे हैं. दूसरी बात यह भी है कि quality itself जो है ना वह it is at highest level because they cannot afford to make a mistake on any because नाम इतना बड़ा है कि अगर आप छोटी सी गलती किसी एक दुनिया के कोने में करेंगे तो वह पूरी दुनिया में फ़ैल जाएगी. हां. So इसलिए जो quality standards हैं, जो requirements हैं, वो probably बाकी लोग अभी capable ही नहीं है शायद. To a large extent in a lot of cases.
तो that's the main. वो I think muscles से आप compete नहीं कर सकते but again मैं competition में ये नहीं कह रहा कि यार powdered milk आपने बना लिया, powdered milk किसी और ने भी बना लिया. Flavor उसका different होगा चलो sure obviously आपका formula है उनका एक formula है. My question always is about it's not just about Nestle. How do like very very large FMCGs ensure the consistency of flavor. Okay. You know like it's how do you ensure कि दस साल, पंद्रह साल पहले भी because देखिए जो आपके पास raw material आ रहा है वो infinite amount of different cows, infinite amount of different variations. कोई farm में कर रहा है वो जो है ना बैठ के उसको nutrition भी सही provide कर रहा है कोई गांव में अपने घर में बैठ के उसने गाय पाली भी है वो जी एक distributor आता है और वो आके जो है ना उसको दूध भर के दे देता है. Quality is one thing quality is ensuring कि disease नहीं है quality is ensuring minimum viable जो requirement सारी पूरी हो रही है Flavor is a is is and for a lot of things it's the flavor that gets you to that point like for example coke ने एक generation पूरी build कर दी अब at least Northern Pakistan में जिसने brand के साथ तो affinity बनाई ही बनाई but उसको एक coke का flavor है एक.
वह Pepsi flavor को नहीं समझता होगा. I get it देखिए बात यह है कि coke के बारे में भी अगर आपने पढ़ा हो तो they say कि जो coke का formula है वह शायद पूरी company में कुछ पता नहीं दस लोगों को पता है या छह लोगों को पता है. So obviously these are secrets that these big companies have. उनके कुछ ingredients होते हैं and then there is a way to make that ingredient and there is a process that they go through. वह एक बड़ा
in a way कहीं ना कहीं वह कुछ ना कुछ कर रहे होते हैं. ला
रहे होते हैं अपना. Type उनका एक process या ingredient का एक एक formula होता है. हां. That is the key. Yeah. और उसी को ही वह लेकर जो आप बात कर रहे हैं कि वह एक signature आता है. हां हां. वह signature वहीं से आता है and they also know ना देखिए बात यह है कि जो बड़ी corporation है उनको पता है कि वह अगर कुछ certain premium ले रहे हैं वह इसी चीज़ का ले रहे कि they are giving a prefer a product which has a superior flavor, consistent taste, better quality, all of those things. So, so it is driven from that और वह coke की example आपके सामने है कि coke दुनिया में पता नहीं कौन कौन से cola आ गए हैं लेकिन nobody's been able to copy that.
छोटे RC cola छोला तो मैं side पर करूंगा. तो खुद सारे खतरों हो गए. Pepsi और coke जो बड़े दोनों वह हैं उस पर भी है आपका दिल क्या आप खतरों के There are two brands जो कि globally
successful और आप देखें कि कोई there is nothing even close. Yeah. मतलब दूर दूर तक कोई ऐसा नहीं है जिसका कोई brand मतलब मुझे याद है एक जमाने में यहां पर कोई master cola और पत्नी अमृत cola. अमृत cola और पत्नी कौन कौन से आए थे but वह. आजकल वह आई भी एक cola next फुमाइयों से ही थे. हां, एक cola next भी आया हुआ. एक और में cola आई थी. हां. So but they have not been able to compete. Somehow they have that वह एक कुछ गड़ों
है, कुछ है. Right. So and then ten years in dairy and then eventually he moved to Nescafe. Nescafe, have moved to Nescafe, yes. Got a huge push over the recent years. I have seen कि Pakistan कुछ, I mean Pakistan is a चाय country, right? Yes. And suddenly now Nestle wants Pakistan to also become a coffee company. So what's that all about?
So I think personally एक तो ये है Nescafe is obviously a global brand. So it's I really like working for a brand like Nescafe. The difference is कि it's a huge challenge also because जिसने आपने कहा है कि चाय is like DNA में है ना? DNA में है और उसको बदलना आसान नहीं है. लेकिन जो silver lining है वह यह है कि जो young लोग हैं उनका concept change रहा है. यह जो specially जो cafe cultures वन गए हैं अब देखिए ना हर गली में एक cafe बना रहा और अच्छी coffee बना रहे हैं. Local groups हैं, buyer से मंगवाते हैं जो भी करते हैं But अच्छी coffee है और the trend is changing. तो अगर मैं बात करूं ना बड़े शहरों की. जैसे for example if I talk about कराची लाहौल, इस्लामाबाद, हैदराबाद, even मुल्तान इन जगहों पर young लोग their inclination towards coffee is increasing. Right. Which is very good. दूसरी बात यह है कि जो एक element है ना कि coffee चुके चाय चुके इतनी बड़ी है कि अगर आप कोई एक आधी occasion भी पकड़ ले ना morning की पकड़ ले, evening की पकड़ ले तो and you just get some out of it So it's huge. Yeah. So and we have I think पिछले चार पांच सालों में with all the efforts there is a lot of increase that has conversion has taken place. It's not like चाय को लोग छोड़े हैं but it's more like conjunctional
मुझे start हो जाए. I think वो है its really about moments.
Moments and to be honest I'll tell you एक बड़ी common सी बात है may be you've experienced this as well कि आप जब आप
दोस्तों के साथ कहीं बाहर जा रहे होते हैं तो आप हमेशा कहते हो यार let's eat for coffee. हां. Let's go out for coffee. आप यह नहीं कहते हैं चाहे ही. नहीं मैं वही कह रहा ना moments हैं so अभी बड़ा फ़र्क़ है. मैंने आपके depend करता है किस दोस्त के साथ जा रहे हैं. और कौन सी generation की बात हो रही कौन सी generation की बात हो रही है? Exactly. कुछ certain लोग हैं मैं अपना हूं मैं for a lot of people अच्छा मेरा formal meetings होंगी. मेरे acquaintance वाले friends होंगे. मेरे अच्छे friend मैं हमेशा क्या कहता है चाय पी की तरह बैठना है? And and so you it's it's उस product की brand एक बनी हुई है कि यार अच्छा ठीक है certain things के लिए I'll go for coffee. Certain things के लिए if I want to talk about something you know inspirational, something this, something that. मैंने अपना job के या professional या वह करना है coffee. अगर मैंने फ़ालतू का time ज़्यादा करना है, बैठना है, you know अपनी life discuss करनी है तो कुछ चाहे and and so बड़ा interesting I think pop plays a huge role as well. Yes. You know you are watching all these shows on Netflix and you are consuming coffee, coffee, coffee and you are like यार मुझे भी चाहिए.
देखिए ना आप again यह जो आप बात कर रहे हो internet, YouTube, all of those things. I think लोग हम लोग let's admitted कि हम गोरों से inspired हैं. हर चीज़ में हम वैसे ही बनाने को है. Accent भी हम वैसा बनाने की कोशिश करते हैं. कपड़े भी वैसे पहनते हैं. Brands भी वही पसंद करते हैं. Bands भी हमें artist भी वही पसंद है. Actors भी वही पसंद है. तो eventually beverage में भी तो वह चीज़ आएगी ना जैसे coke, Pepsi, ऐसी तरह, coffees also like that कि Starbucks हर्त बंदे का दिल करता है यार मैं बाहर जाऊं तो सबसे पहले tag करूं. Starbucks पर coffee पी रहा है, selfie लेते हुए. हालांकि बड़ी फारी coffee है that is. Do not like it at all. वही कह रहा कि वह but लेकिन it's just an element जो कि आप there is always an element of coolness. Yeah. Associated with beverage like coffee कि यार मैं coffee वाला थोड़ा cool होगा. Relatively cool होगा चाय के मुकाबले में. It's it's somehow it it connects with social mobility.
Feel like. Yeah. Know when I am या या आपको होता कि यार मैं जब अवसर type सूंगा ना तो मैं coffee पिऊंगा and that will prove that I am you know a certain level of वह. एक सवाल है generally तमाम लोगों के दिमाग़ में आता होगा क्योंकि जब coffee Nescafe का नाम आता है तो एक question mark तो आता कि sir Nescafe basement क्यों बंद हो गया? वह coke वाले तोड़कर ले गए आपका बंदा या उसकी जगह कोई और आ जाएगा या हम बस भूल गए हैं इसने वाला घना खा हैं. नहीं नहीं Nescafe basement बंद नहीं हुआ. Maybe
there is a longer gap. Hopefully you will see at some point it will come back. Ok. और मतलब coke का अपना एक I mean they they have a certain view about how they deal with music. Yeah. Nescafe basement is more about creating musicians. Yeah. It's not so much about कि आपने पुराने लोगों को पकड़ा और एक hybrid create किया और आप देखेंगे even जो coke studio में या even generally जो एक music scene में बच्चे निकलकर आए उसमें बहुत सारे ऐसे हैं जो they started off with Nescafe basement. Absolutely. So it has its own originality I would say or
a different way of owning the music. Yeah and I think the feel was very interesting ना because Nescafe basement I I was actually glad that Nescafe basement never became as sort of mass market as coke studio because उसने ना brand को अगर मैं purely एक business sense उसने brand को एक बड़ी hipster feel ली. You know it didn't make it as कि यार you know पत्थर उठाओ और Nescafe basement. क्योंकि coke के साथ हो गया था. Coke का तो यह था channel बदलते आपको पुराने वाला coke studio याद हो digital, pre digital. आप channel में देते हैं coke studio, coke studio, coke studio. Yes. Just like कि यार बस like enough you know. With Nescafe basement it was always this like indie music feels and really just like यार artist को जिसने बनाया है. Like Koch studio was just so and I mean I love Koch studio and what they particularly with this season the way that they've rebranded themselves. They've done a lot for the music industry in Absolutely. But in terms of difference I think what Nescafe Basement did was provide fresh talent. Yes. That was absolutely incredible and I think I really miss that. Yeah. You know, I know definitely उसके अंदर there was a huge role of सुल्फी there as well. He's a genius, and I don't know वह partnership कहां तक जाती है. But I'm sure you can find another genius like that and build on that. So will we be seeing that anytime soon? Hopefully soon. Hopefully soon. Yes. चलेंगे से आधा घे नहीं जाएंगे. Interesting. Where do you see? एक तो मैं एक सवाल और वह आता है आजकल के इस environment के अंदर. पैंतीस रुपए की खाले बना आपकी बिक्री है आजकल वो three in one. हां जी 35. मैं coffee bean and tea leave गया था तो आठ सौ नब्बे रुपए की मुझे regular मिली. तो do you think that is going to first of all ये है कि आपकी जो coffee है it's not a local crop and so I am assuming that that's the problem. It's a local crop. Coffee यहाँ grow नहीं होती Possible भी नहीं है वो क्योंकि दुनिया भर में यही सी है कि I think it's a South America. There are only few countries जहां पर productive South
America is one of them. Yes.
So वो impact आपको भी पड़ा होगा? Like will we see the prices being revised with the insurance It's everywhere.
It's not about coffee only, it's about everything.
Right. Right,
fuel cost, I mean everything.
But do you think के so ज़ाहिर है कि जब margin call because you are in mass market FMCG तो do you think that will help you कि आप बहुत सा बंदा like आप वारे से बाहर हो गए सच्ची बात है And so उस वक्त मैंने सोचा कि थोड़ा सा वापस आते हैं and and and sort of readymade पर आते हैं. Do you think that's going to help in in the?
देखिए वह जो एक कहावत है ना कि diversity में opportunities भी आती हैं जब तो उसमें यह है कि I think obviously cafes के अंदर जो coffees का prices का ऊपर जाना है वह किसी हद तक हमारे लिए अच्छा भी है और किसी तक अच्छा नहीं भी है. अच्छा नहीं इसलिए क्योंकि coffee culture वहां से develop हो रहा है. Right, that's demand creation for you. Demand creation, एक habit creation all of that but at the same time यह है कि हम benefit जिस चीज़ से ले सकते हैं वह यह है कि यार we make it more accessible. Right. Because कुछ चीज़ें हम यहां बना रहे हैं. Coffee तो buyer से ही आती है raw coffee but उसकी जो मतलब for example three in one जो है वह यहां बनता है Pakistan में. अच्छा. Coffee buyer से आती है. हां but उसकी जो processing है सारी. वह यहां पर होती है. So it's a local made product. Right. So that's why we are able to the amount. Even price होके एक आम आदमी भी चालीस रुपए में, पैंतीस रुपए में खरीद सकता है. ठीक है. So definitely यह एक advantage ज़रूर है. अब यह एक सवाल ज़रूर है कि versus चाय, चाय versus coffee affordability और वह but but it's a challenge जो कि जिसके ऊपर है. I think it's a long term thing as well. Like you,
वही again आपने कहा कि चाय is something जो कि across all segments है. Coffee right now is till early doctor phase में तो it's like SCCAD Yes and but it will take its time but eventually I think it's very clear कि जो generation change हो रही है
वहां पर the preference for coffee is definitely there. And it will grow over time. That's what my view is. Why don't you guys introduce
यह जो आपके essentially, एक तो आपकी वह वाली coffee है ना? Nescafe की यह just like put it in and made to three in one type जो होती है. हां three in one वो हो गई या even अगर I am assuming वो जो आपके वो भी आते Nescafe के जार जो आते हैं कि क्या कहलाती है वो dissolvable और soluble soluble type coffee होती है but एक आपकी machines वाली coffee होती है right and I recently got a machine for the office मात्रिकाल insta में बड़ा channel आया था and said why not and उसमें जो है वह आपकी
beans होती हैं beans जो होती हैं there are no options. उसमें वो you get these specialties. नहीं, जो अभी जो offices और machines वाले हैं वहाँ पे beans available हैं. Like आपकी तरफ से आना शुरू हुआ है distributor? बिल्कुल बिल्कुल. Start हो गए. It's it's still early days. Okay. अभी मेरे ख्याला widespread नहीं है. Because it demands depends on the demand and the price also ना क्योंकि. क्योंकि stores पर तो available नहीं है. मैं stores से जाकर उठाऊं तो मुझे वह. अब retail में नहीं है. Retail में नहीं Probably आपको कोई parallel import से कोई मंगवा ले तो उससे मिल जाएगी but we don't import it as such. But again it's a progression. अगर as a first step offices में acceptance आ जाएगी, demand create होगी तो फिर retail में भी as a next step. तो who does if someone has an office like mine, who does one get in touch with to? To So we have a whole Nestle professional function. Department है पूरा जो कि B2B में deal करता है and they are the ones who who do deal with all of these कि किसको कौन सी machine चाहिए. उसका यह होता है कि usually it's about a minimum usage. वह एक certain का हिसाब से वह commit करवाते कि जब इतना लेंगे and then they give you the machine. That's how it is. Right.
What about यह जिस तरह I believe Nescafe की तो बाहर वह भी आ गई है ना? Pod वाली machines and Nespresso. Nespresso. And again I have an espresso. Again I am short on pods.
Can we see pods anytime soon? I think उसमें भी थोड़ा सा time है because it's it's something which for the business case. It's a very niche market right now. It's a very niche market right now but obviously it's on our radar but अभी थोड़ा early है because the market is like you said
चाय के बारे में recently एक debate चल रही थी online, post budget and dollar and all of those things कि चाय कम पिया करें, dollar सस्ता हो जाएगा. And I mean you were in the dairy business, not necessarily tea business but dairy had a strong connection to tea. पहले उसके बारे में मुझे थोड़ा सा बताएं कि do you think I mean what are your thoughts on that in terms of? I think चाय
it's a heavy import bill इसमें तो कोई शक नहीं है. उसकी वजह यह है कि Pakistan में चाय इतनी नहीं local.
नहीं produce होती है. Produce होती ज़्यादा होती उस पर question mark किया आता कि यार आप जो है क्यों नहीं बना लेते? हम agriculture country हैं. Why can't we make tea? Even
if we do that, it's going to take a long time. I mean you can debate कि यार यहां पर आप उसके ऊपर एक mass strive start कर दें but I think it's going to take time but जो लोग यहां पर इस tea business में हैं may be they have a role to play in developing this trade but I am not really privy to the specifics
of it. What I am thinking if was I mean it's an open free market right? If there was really a business case हो सकता है मुझे personally यह लगता है कि यार the environment is not conducive to. मुझे भी यह लगता है like I said कि मुझे
जैसे ही मतलब नज़र आता कि यार इसमें कोई काम है तो हर बंदा उसमें लग जाता है. हां हां. तो चाय के case में भी अगर if it's so easy to do then you would see everyone या लोग dairy farm बनाते हैं, लोग chicken farm बनाते हैं, sheds बनाते हैं. तो इसको बनाने में क्या इतना मसला है? इन्हें बना सकते हैं. So there is, I am sure there is something which is not conducive and again I don't know the specifics of क्योंकि हम तो
we're more a creamer than the tea. Yeah yeah, I understand. So coming to your particular industry, daily इस time में दस गुज़ारे. I remember campaign चलती थी इनकी tetra pack वालों की कि यार यह, you know, it's packed milk, oasis, गवाले का दूध. Do you know the numbers of what's the size of the market जो कि यह processed milk versus?
I think it's still 90% plus
loose. 90% plus? Are you serious? Yes. Like less than 10% around all players together.
खुला दूध is huge.
I don't know the exact latest numbers. But why do you think की नहीं हो सका? All this time market share नहीं बढ़ सका process मिलकर.
देखिए उसके बहुत सारे reasons हैं. इसमें एक तो यह है कि दूध की जो specially अगर आप थोड़े से शहरों से buyer निकल जाएं वहां पर literally लोग घरों में it's a home grown business. फिर वह home grown जो होता है वह अपनी facilities में sell भी करते हैं. फिर credit system होता है. आप आप महीने बाद पैसे देने हैं. Prices के ऊपर बहुत बड़ा एक मतलब I don't want to start a controversial topic but generally जो stretching of milk होती है पानी डालना, इस तरह की practices वह आपको definitely cost में advantage देता है और जिस तरह की महंगाई आपको नज़र आ रही है मतलब होती भी हर तरफ तो affordability also becomes becomes a key. तो so I think that's why I think probably over the years को बहुत ज़्यादा कुछ कुछ साल conversions होती रही हैं. जब prices, commodity prices overall check में थी तो conversion ज़्यादा होती रही. But then जब महंगाई बढ़ती है तो फिर लोग people always have that option to switch back. क्योंकि conjunctional usage जो है ना मेरे ख्याल से हमेशा रही है. Between loose milk and any pack डब्बे वाला दूध और वो उसमें ये होता है कि based on the economic situation
it can go either way. Yeah. And that's how, that's how it is. And I think वो generation की भी बात है ना कि like for example I remember my, I mean as far as I can remember, Probably way back when I was much younger तो मुझे याद है गवा लेकर या बुजू नहीं, मंदा आता था वह अपने टेन लेकर. But for most part I remember डब्बे वाला दूध. Then I remember my father retired and suddenly और डब्बे वाला दूध चल रहा था retire हुए हैं वह and then he got a guy because उसका flavor उसकी मलाई उसका वह यह वह सारा सारा. अच्छा but then वही वाली बात है कि उनकी generation जो थी उनको अगर choose करना पड़े तो they were still going for that. हमारी generation में people who are used to the डब्बे वाला वो
वापस नहीं वो taste की वजह से नहीं
कर पा रहे हैं. वही again comes back to our relationship. Exactly, you
are used to that particular taste. You don't want to change that. So some things are gonna really happen once like generationally
and ice ice ना करके वह तैसे Father ही यह ज़बरदस्त दो तीन और चीज़ें मैं आपसे पूछना चाहूंगा but before that I know for a fact that you're running a school as well. That's very separate from your core job. Tell me a little bit about that. Why did you decide to do that?
इसमें the thing is that, so I told you a little bit about my moving-moving from Islambar to Lahore. It was a family situation. So my mom had cancer and she it was diagnosed at a very late stage. So she only survived for one year after that. So after she passed away the thing is that हमारी अम्मी ने अपने बच्चों में मेरा एक बड़ा भाई है एक छोटी बहन है. उनका mission सारी ज़िंदगी जो था वह मतलब हमें अच्छा पढ़ाना था और that that was her mission in life and she was a teacher herself like I told you कि she had found a school and she did a lot of things for women as well, underprivileged women. तो उनका जो goal था वह एक हमने कभी यह होता है ना कि जब आपके parents होते हैं आप चीज़ें for granted लेते हैं. हां, वह सब कर रहे कुछ करते रहते हैं. वह करते रहते हैं यार हम ज़्यादा lift नहीं कराते तो that's how normally we are तो लेकिन जब when she passed away तो me and my brother had this thought कि यार we wanted to do something which is in line with her sort of mission and जो उनके ambition था ज़िंदगी का. And we were thinking about it for my brother also works for a corporate he works for Pepsi. तो बात यह है कि हमारे पास time नहीं था कभी. अभी हम जो बात कर रहे थे but हम सोचते रहते थे कि यार कुछ कर लें, कुछ कर लें, कुछ कर लें. Like so many other people आप बैठकर सोचते हैं कि यह करेंगे वह करेंगे होता नहीं है. हुआ यह कि I think back in 2015, my brother was here. He was posted in Hong Kong. तो वह आया हुआ था छुट्टियों पर summers में. तो हम बैठे बैठे बात हुई तो हमें पता चला कि एक मेरे भाई के किसी दोस्त के father एक school चलाते थे. अच्छा. लाहौर के अंदर ही और it was closed for last I think ten fifteen years because वह बूढ़े हो गए थे. उनके पास time नहीं था. उनके बच्चे बाहर थे. इस तरह की कोई story थी. तो वह incidentally बात हुई तो my brother came to me. उसने मुझे कहा कि यार मैं तो यहां नहीं हूं. तुम यहां पर हो और I know कि तुम्हारा busy schedule है. तो यह एक opportunity है. यह school है, बंद पड़ा हुआ है और लेकिन जो जिन जो लोग चलाते थे जो staff था वह available है. अच्छा. And they are also keen कि अगर इसको restart कर दिया जाए. तो that's how it happened. So we just restarted it and luckily we got the same house यानी जो same building जहां पर वह school था in the same community उसकी equity पहले से exist करती थी because वह पंद्रह बीस साल वहां school चलता रहा था और जो staff था यानी जो teachers थी और जो एक manager था वह भी exactly वही लोगों में मिल गया. उन्होंने हमें introduce करा दिया कि जी यह लोग हैं and they were very excited to restart it again. So वो कहते हैं ना कि where there is a will, there is a way. So, इस case में हमारे साथ it was pure luck we got that. मेरा ख़याल मेरी एक महीने की मेहनत थी. एक डेढ़ महीने में मैंने उसको restart किया और basically जो school है उसका concept बड़ा simple है. वह यह है कि हम लोग vocational courses कराते हैं जिसमें सिलाई कढ़ाई, beautician के courses, जिस इलाके में यह school है ना वह बड़ा एक Impoverished जगह. बहुत ही impoverished जगह है. मतलब वह school जाने के लिए ना आपको आप गाड़ी में नहीं जा सकते. अच्छा. You have to walk for like ten minutes park करके. इतनी tight गली है वह और बहुत ही गरीब है वहां पर issues क्या हैं? वहां के issues यह हैं कि एक तो street children बहुत हैं. Right. बच्चे नशा करते हैं, negative चीज़ों में involved हैं. दूसरा मसला यह है कि वहां पर जो ख़वा तीन है उनके भी बड़े मसाले उनको घरों से नहीं निकलने दिया जाता. उनको husbands मारते भी हैं in certain cases, not treated well. So यह वहां के problems थे. जिसकी वजह से वह school found किया गया था आज से बीस साल पहले. तो हमें भी यही बताया गया था and it was exactly what we intended to do. तो होता यह है कि अब हमारे पास आज seven years हो गए हैं school को और माशालाह we have so many inspirational stories in our school कि अगर मैं आपको सुनाना शुरू करूं तो मेरे ख्याला एक दो चार podcast समय और चाहिए होंगी सिर्फ उन stories को सुनाने के लिए. मतलब I know there are women who came to our school to start जो course हमारा था सिलाई कढ़ाई का उनसे आप उनका नाम पूछते थे ना तो उनके पास इतना confidence नहीं था कि वह अपना नाम भी बता सकें और आज there are so many women जिन्होंने अपने घरों में beauty parlors बना लिए हैं. अच्छा. अपने घरों में tailor shops बना लिए हैं. In fact there are some जिन्होंने tailor shops बनाकर अपने नीचे इन्हीं school से पढ़ी हुई लड़कियों को hire भी कर लिया है. So अभी interestingly मैंने एक I went to a TED talk वहां पर मैंने यह पूरी story explain की एक बंदी की जो कि जब आई थी तो उसको घर से मतलब literally उसके husband मारता था. Somehow she ended up in our school. अच्छा. और उसको वह जब उसको यह सब कुछ उसने सीख लिया. घर से निकलने की तो इजाज़त नहीं है. लेकिन घर बैठकर उसने अपने घर में एक tailor shop बनाई proper school नहीं हैं. Right. वहां पर भी मैंने School like a vocational It's a vocational, primarily vocational school. Right. जिसमें हम street children को भी education देते हैं early early years की. तो so that is something जो I would say कि it it is something in my life जो मैं किसी material benefit के लिए नहीं कर रहा. Right. But I can tell you this कि मुझे लगता है कि जो balance की आप बात कर रहे थे ना, मतलब I feel very proud कि I have a good balance in life. मैं काम भी कर रहा हूं. मैं play sports. I give time to my family और somehow मुझे लगता है कि जो यह एक अच्छा काम हो रहा है ना, उधर से एक बड़ा एक positive दुआएं कह लो या energy कह लो, एक satisfaction कह लो. It's a, it's it's really a really feel good factor for me in life कि यार एक ऐसा काम हो रहा है जिसमें मुझे मुझे कोई मुश्किल भी होती है तो it's just I feel कि यार वो लोग मतलब मेरा I can give you a very small example. COVID के दिनों में everyone was under stress, businesses, jobs, everything. But I had one thing in my mind कि यार मैंने we kept our school going. हमने अपने लोगों को salaries देते थे. हालांकि school बंद था COVID में और feeling यह थी कि यार अगर हम इनका ज़रिया बने हुए ना तो हमारा ज़रिया भी चलता रहेगा. So it's a very basic सी बात but I believe in it very strongly and I think it's true कि जब आप लोगों के लिए बगैर किसी material benefit के लिए कोई काम करते हैं ना तो आपके रास्ते ऐसे खुलते हैं कि मतलब you can't even imagine. We didn't get donations for two years running
but we were able to manage. You fund the entire organization through donations?
So there is no formal funding mechanism. Basically it's friends and family. और जब कोई नहीं होता तो me and my brother pitch in. Right. But we have done some fundraisers, छोटे मोटे. एक दो दो हमने छोटे कबाल बुलाकर छोटा event किया था. So, so it's very informal. But it's running, लगा शुक्र है कि I mean. And do you think you're ever going to scale the model as well to maybe multiple schools? So that's the I would say कि एक ख़ाइश है कि again time नहीं होता. ख़ाइश यह है कि जो model जो मेरे इस दिमाग़ में है I don't know if it's gonna work but model मेरे दिमाग़ में यह है कि जो product निकलकर आ रहा है हमारे school से उनको किसी तरह ऐसे connect कराया जाए with so for example उसकी छोटी सी example यह हो सकती है कि अगर जो हमारी by the way they make some really good products. हमने कुछ छोटी मोटी exhibition type भी कराई थी घर के अंदर ही family में ही. तो जो उन्होंने कपड़े बनाए, suit बनाए वह मेरे हमारे घर की family में जो ख़वा तीन है उधर they sold like hot cakes. अच्छा. तो मेरे ज़हन में उससे यह ख्याल आया कि यार we can connect with some retail vendors जो कि उनको backend पर यह लोग use कर सकते हैं and whatever income comes can also help self sustain the school in a way. क्योंकि जो चीज़ मैं नहीं चाहता या मैं हम नहीं चाहते वह यह है कि जितना यह school पहले बंद हो गया था because the owner was old and he wasn't able to give the resources and time
वह नहीं होना चाहिए. I mean वह कल को कम नहीं रहेंगे. Institution तो वह होता ना जो कि sense of self से beyond होता है. Absolutely. Its own has to have some sort of a running constitution essentially.
Yes, so this is my in a way एक ambition है. यह goal है school को लेकर कि यह auto पर चल पड़े. So अभी we are not there. Yeah. But यह है कि
उम्मीद है कि eventually we'll find a way to make it self sustainable ताकि यह है कि हमारे जाने के बाद भी चलता रहे. Makes sense sense. And that would be great. Father, are at the one hour fifteen minute mark, give or take and I mean normally one hour पर. I try to wrap it up. Gonna ask you one last question. Normally, मैं हर, guest से पूछता हूं. Your... What would your age be? If I were to predict, maybe 44, 45?
No. I'm 42. 42.
You're 42 years old. You've been in Pakistan for most part, and लाहौर for most part. आपने जाहिरा के Pakistan के different phases देखे होंगे. Eighties का Pakistan भी देखा, nineties का Pakistan भी देखा. Pakistan दमियान में access to information बहुत अच्छा है. How would you see the Pakistan twenty eight years from now?
I think मेरी generally outlook towards things is very positive and very optimistic guy in general. एक तो यह मैं पहले ही बता देता हूं. But I think I see promising future और उसकी वजह is the way I see the generation changing, young people becoming they are very clear about what they want. I mean, I अब मैं अब जब अपने आप को compare करता हूं कि मैं let's say twenty four years का था तो क्या करता था? कुछ भी नहीं करता था. शायद अच्छी बात भी थी कि सिर्फ enjoy करते थे, फिरते थे, concerts पर जाते थे, हमारा गर्दी करते थे, hangout करते थे. कभी कोई practical चीज़ें हमने नहीं सोची थी इतनी कि यार हम यह काम कर लें, हम यह business बना लें, यह मतलब so this is very different. यहां पर बारह बारह साल के बच्चे they are already thinking about कि मेरी stream of income क्या है? हां. अम्माप्पा से pocket money मैंने नहीं लेनी. There is an there is an ecosystem developing with these startups, with the people who are funding it, with some some of these incubators that you see lumps के incubators हैं, कराची में भी हैं, पेशावर में भी in fact बड़ा अच्छा incubator है. तो मुझे लगता है कि अभी अभी वह stage पर तो नहीं है जहां maturity आ जाए लेकिन it is in the going in the right direction. So मुझे नहीं लगता कि I would be surprised कि अगले दस, पंद्रह, बीस सालों में something like Facebook something like जो big organizations जो एक American dream जिसको कहा करते थे एक ज़माने में लोग I think यहां से भी लोग निकल सकते हैं. यहां से even मैंने यह भी देखा है कि कुछ जो traditional businesses थे I know उनकी next generation के कुछ लोगों को मैं जानता हूं. उन्होंने old school खत्म कर दिया है. They think big now. They are thinking way beyond Pakistan. मतलब पुराने पुरानी thought यह थी So, मुझे लगता है कि despite all the troubles that we have in Pakistan, dollar going haywire, fuel going haywire but मुझे I have a very I am very hopeful and optimistic के it is going it is headed in the right way और I think जो another fifteen twenty years
I think you will see a big change in Pakistan and on the positive side. शालिन I hope that's very true and लताला आपकी बात मुबारक है फाद भाई thank you so much for coming in and sharing all the insight. Thank you I really enjoyed this candidate discussion. Likewise likewise thank so much for watching अगर आपके episode पसंद आई हो अपने दोस्तों के साथ ज़रूर share करिएगा. आप बताए फाद भाई में जो बात group as well. यहां पर कहीं पर easy पैसा jazz cash आ रहा होगा. If you'd like to support the channel, we accept anything from 1 rupee to as much as you like. It's a thought that counts. But anyways, this was सैयद मज़हबेला संजय दी. You are watching ThoughtBandThings. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you the next one.
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