Why Pakistan's tourism problem isn't K2

सामने ख़बतीरों का ज़रार. Welcome back to another episode of Thought Behind Things. आज मैं संभाषा मौजूद है एक बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान जिनसे मैं बात करना चाह रहा हूं at least for a good part of the last one year but वह tie up नहीं हो पा रहा. बहुत recently हमारा tie up हो भी गया था but he unfortunately had to go through surgery. अलहम्द रिल्ला he is fully recovered now. He has बड़ा detailed इनका experience है. Training and development में भी है but मेरा core जो reasoning थी वो ये थी कि tourism में इनका बहुत extensive experience है. Pakistan में अगर मैं lowest hanging fruit की बात करूं of an industry जो कि globally हमें connect कर सकती है and can bring us the dollars, the much needed dollars that we all crave these days. That is tourism and sustainable development. उसके अंदर was very very important. I wanted to have that conversation as well. Most recently he was the special assistant to the prime minister on tourism as well. He's been advising the chief minister of गिरगित बल्तिस्तान. Again, a core, interest area within the tourism space as well. आजम आज़म मौजूद है. आजम जमीर साहब, sir, thank you so much for being part of this show. हो रहा है और inflation हमें मार रही है. तो I am proud to announce that this video is in partnership with समाया Financials. They are offering two very very cool trainings. Capital market fundamentals जिसमें आप stocks और mutual funds में invest करना सीखेंगे और understand करेंगे कि आखिर एक company के अंदर क्या ऐसे fundamentals होते हैं जिनको आपने देखना होता है figure out कि वह एक अच्छी company है to invest in और दूसरी training है technical analysis master class जिसमें आप सीखेंगे कि किस तरीके से हम different tradable assets like commodities, forex, stocks, crypto के अंदर थोड़े से पैसे लगाकर बहुत ज़्यादा पैसे बना सकते हैं. Personally यह training मैंने भी ली है and it's absolutely phenomenal. The link to the trainings are in the description below. Check them out and become financially healthy and now back to the podcast. Would you like me to respond in English or उर्दू? Whatever you're most comfortable Born

in नाहौ in the Jurassic period, 1953, and grew up the first four or five years in Lahore. As a matter of yeah. And then moved to Pindi, went to two major schools, HCN in लाहौर and Bern Hall in अख्तेबाद. Right.

How was the the the difference? Because HCN is HCN. Everybody knows HCN. And then Bern Hall, आजकल का आज तो there is just too much convergence. Yes. Bern Hall is on one side and then Bern Hall की अपनी prestige है but ageson तो बहुत ही आ गया. उस time पर कितना difference था? I think Bern Hall was a step ahead. Really? Yes. People don't know this and let me tell you on your

program today that Bernhol was actually called the Eaton of the East. And we had royal family of Malaysia, their nephews, nieces from East Africa, member of the royalty. It was just the school to send. The Meerof Hunza's son was my class fellow, you know. And these were notable people in those days. And so Bernhardt had the best. A lot of the kids who went to the army, went from Bern Hall because, you know Proximity. They just jumped the fence and walked to PMA. Right. And we were actually asked to attend, passing out parades, and there was nothing more inspiring than that. You just wanted to sign up there and then. And so, Etzen was more feudal, more bureaucratic. Bernoul was more military. So I have two photographs, in my house. There's a Bernoul picture of 1961, and there's a Asian picture of 1964. So when we have a military government, I put the Bernoul picture up because half of them are generals. Right? Right. And when we have a civilian government, I put the Asian picture up because half of them are ministers. So I've got it covered both ways. But, yeah, know, I I don't want to qualify that one was better than the other, but they were both up there. And in terms of how much do you think your your sort of primary, middle, and high school schooling

shaped the person that you are today? How important was the organized structured learning that you did there versus, you know?

मुसंबिल, the learning not so much, the environment a lot. Ok. Bern Hall, you know, when you're in a boarding school? It's literally survival. Survival starts from the time you your mom leaves you there. And you feel isolated and you feel vulnerable and you feel everybody is after you. They're not. So it taught you bonding, that we all talk about these days, and we say it's lacking in our lives. I have friends from Abtabath Bernal who are still close friends, and I hardly have any friends from university. You know. By the time I got to university, the bonds weren't very strong. I don't know why, but, I think the environment taught me a lot. Then, of course, missionaries. We were governed by missionaries, and missionaries had their own value set. So that played a huge role, you know, to do the right thing. And, so that was the foundational training that we received. And, of course, the geography and the history and the chemistry and physics went along with it. But and that is is I mean, that's better today than it was then. But I think, the environment played a much bigger part in my upbringing than the academics. If I were to diverge a little and I have a, you know, young two year old son. Sure. So the the conversation

on education is a big, I mean, takes a lot large part of my time and my brain. Yeah. More often than not मैं अपने schooling को देखता हूं. I I look back and and the schooling that I've gotten and more more recently जब मैं देखता हूं कि what's happening around, I'm beginning to see that our school systems today are more of I mean the entire idea is कि सबको एक average पर लाकर खड़ा कर दूं. Right? वह बच्चा अगर आप average से ऊपर है या average से नीचे उसको average पर ले आओ. And उस पर I I dabbled upon this thing called mastery technique of teaching जो कि पुराने वक्तों में you know Leonardo da Vinci and all of these major philosophers were given जिसमें वह बच्चा होता था और उसको वह घर पर आकर कोई tutor एक tutor होता था. वही art सिखाता था. वही यह सिखाता था. वही वह सिखाता था. और मैंने उसके बारे में पढ़ना शुरू किया ना है realize कि जो यह current organized structured schooling system है it's not really working out in a in a very sort of optimized way बस वह बच्चे को एक set of basic rules बता रहे हैं पर दुनिया बड़ी different हो गई है. दुनिया जो है वह आजकल इतनी rapidly transform but it was the the social aspect and it was the survival instinct in a way that I got from there. So, how do you see the schooling system today,

in the I, you don't start me off on this. देखिए, the biggest, crime is a very strong word, but the biggest disservice the school system is doing is they're not teaching our kids to lose. And any kid who doesn't learn how to lose will have a torrid time when he comes into real life. You know, all the nine a's and the three point nine's will be left in the university. And then they'll come to work for a irritable baba like me. Right? And then they'll be looking for the a's, and guess what? There'll be none around. And then they'll say, you know, we are perfect. It's the organization. That's not right. So they'll switch jobs. And by the time this kid is 29, he would have changed five jobs. And when he'll go looking for the sixth, nobody's going to hire him because now he'll have an unstable variant on his CV. Right? If there's a race in school, and out of a class of 20, this guy comes nineteenth, he gets a prize. I said, hello? Why? Because they want to make the parents happy. Because now it's a business, It's no longer imparting of education. And business people who run businesses need to take business decisions. Giving a prize to, the guy who's come nineteenth out of 20 is a business decision. But they don't realize that while the parents will be very happy and they'll take a photograph with their kid, that kid has not learned how to lose. And one thing that taught us how to lose was sports because that's one area where you get kicked in the butt every day. Yeah. Right? And, but now they've removed, school from, I mean, sports from the school system. And whenever I raise my voice and I tell, क्या कर रहे हो? They say कि यह बच्चे gym जाते हैं. And I tell them, is that all you think sports teaches them is physical fitness? Mhmm. मैंने कहा, what about character? What about values? What about teamwork? What about depending on the kid next door? I said all those things. Physical fitness is a very small byproduct of sports. So the minute you removed sports from the system, the first disservice you did was कि बच्चों को अब हारना नहीं आता. हमारे बड़ों को हारना नहीं आता let alone you want to, I I haven't watched TV for the last three years. If you watch a talk show, you'll notice one thing. Nobody knows how to lose. Mhmm. There are three people who will actually kill each other, but they will not know how to lose. So and and that's the product of our school system. So that's my biggest complaint is, yeah, they're very good. They're very good in maths. They're very good in, you know, artificial intelligence, and they are learning stuff like we couldn't even dream of. That's great. But you need to couple the other aspects of education. वह भी education का हिस्सा है. वह मुंह के भल गिरना नहीं जानता मुज़मिल तो वह उठेगा कैसे? Mhmm. Because गिरना तो उसने है. वह जब तक nine a's लाएगा, जब तक वह school में है या university में है. मुझे यह बता दें कौन सी नौकरी में nine a's मिलते हैं? Mhmm. उस नौकरी का मुझे नाम बता दें. He joins Citibank और he joins NGRO और IBM. The first day as a management trainee, he's going to have a nightmare. And he's going to say, where are my is? They don't exist anymore. And Nur Khan, when I was leaving him, he said one thing to me other than the advice he gave me. He said, आज़म, I will judge your character in adversity because जब हालात ठीक होती है तो कितने नफलों का स्वाब है भाई. But when you get a bad boss or when you get unfairly treated in office and when, you know, you're, you know, you're being ridiculed, humiliated, When you don't know how to pay your rent, that's the time I will check your character. And then when you stand tall in those times, then I'll salute you. These were his words. He said, तीन वक़्त table पर रोटी पड़ी हो तो क्या फ़र्क़ पड़ता है भाई? दो दिन बच्चे भूखिए हो ना तो फिर कहो मैंने खाना चोरी नहीं किया. So the whole concept. Now people say जी यह school system किसने ख़राब किया? They ask, I'm asked this question so often. Now they expecting I will take the name of a political leader. That's the expectation and I said, you really want to know यह किसने ख़राब की है? मैंने कहा, look for the first couple. They may be dead now but look for the first couple who went to the principal's office and said, इस teacher ने हमारे बच्चे को क्यों रोका? Fire him. And that teacher got fired, and that was the demise, the start of the demise of your school system. Because, when parents stop telling teachers कि हमारे बच्चे को कुछ नहीं कहना other than praise and giving him a prize, what product बाज़म्नल are you preparing? You know, that star they draw on the hand of the kid. The day they don't draw it, the kid is traumatized. He's really traumatized because he's not used to anything but the star. लेकिन real life में वह star दस साल में एक दफा मिलना है. तो बाकी साढ़े नौ साल क्या करोगे? Mhmm. So that is the basic issue. I have got no problem with the academics. I have got no problem with the facilities. I have no problem with the competence of the faculty. These guys who are teaching are qualified people. They are committed people. But the fundamental environment का बेड़ा कर कर दिया है school में. Like I said, you know, in your, in response to your question about Bern Hall, I said academic society. हमें जो बाकी चीज़ें सिखाई गई है ना, those things have gotten me through. They are the ones that build character and Why am I sitting here? Because of the other things. Otherwise, if you looked at my academic record, you wouldn't invite me in this room. I promise you. When I took my o levels and I called dad and I said, o o levels result आ गया है, and he said, pass के fail. And I said, pass and he hung up on me. End of story. There was no further questions and that's how we, you know, if there was a class of 30, I, my target was to be around 15. That was my goal of life. 17 now. And all my life, I stuck to that fifteen sixteen number. You know? I don't even know what the front row looked like. Neither was I interested to go there. Mhmm. Neither did anybody ridicule me कि तू first नहीं आया, तू third नहीं आया, तू second नहीं आया, तुम्हारे सात a's and तुम्हारे नौ. Nobody cared. And and now people care, but what parents don't realize it, they care as long as you are connected with an academic institution. The minute you come into real life, the a's and b's get thrown out of the window. And once those are thrown out of the window, is the kid equipped to handle everything else? And sadly, regrettably, he's not. Mhmm.

Interesting. High school आपने किस year में graduate किया? 70. 70. And then, where did you go? Then I went, to

University. Mhmm. And after my graduation, I got hired by intercontinental, and they sent me to Cornell.

So what was this, what was the program that you did from Croatia University? Oh, BA economics.

अच्छा. And BA was, you know, a big breed at that time. So don't frown. No no.

The frown is because of the economics.

So so my next question was was There was no hospitality training at all ना? Pakistan में थी नहीं. वह तो अभी शुरू हुई थी. So you just stumbled upon hospitality or was there something that you pursued? No, I was, I was playing tennis at the singh club with Milesh अल्लोर खान and he said, क्या कर रहे हो? So I looked at him and said, what do you mean क्या कर रहा हो? I've graduated. I don't have to do anything right now, you know? And he said, my office tomorrow morning. And that was it. And and forty seven years later, I looked back and it's still hospitality. And people said, you know, you were forced into it. I said, I know I was forced into it, but then I loved it. And so he was running the He was chairman of InterContinental Hotels as well as chairman of PIA. अच्छा. Yeah. Yeah. So he was two chairman. And he retired by that time? Who? By Air Force? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because he when he came back to PIA, for your viewers, the first time he took over PIA, he was 34 years old. Really? Yes. He was chairman of PIA at 34. He was a serving air commodore. He was in uniform.

Then he was He was in air commodore at 34? Yes. 34.

And he was then summoned back to the air force. Then he became chief, fought the war, retired, came home in at the age of 48 or 49. He was done with the Air Force after serving as their chief. No. So wait. So what what what was his age as as chief? Like what 45, 46? Yeah yeah. That was his age as chief. क्या था? What was it? कुछ नहीं, बच्चों के हवाले था Pakistan. असुल खान was the same. असुल खान retired early fifties.

They didn't wait for So I mean, that Pakistan and today's Pakistan, we can't get enough of 70 year olds. Our parliament is full of 70 year Our corporate sector is just all about. I mean, we're so agist as a society. मैं आपको बताऊं. I was, interesting वक़्त है. I was working with the World Bank at 22. Mhmm. I was still studying and I had made a video or two that went viral and and so they found me and they were like, you know, why don't you come and work for us as an ICT consultant? And I went to, I was working for the water and sanitation program. I went to one of their, projects in वासा. It was वासा कराची. Yes. I believe. I remember I gave an entire presentation. सारा कुछ वादा घंटा मैंने बताया कि कितना transparency ला सकते हैं आप digital media को इस्तेमाल करके, वगैरह, वगैरह. I'm done with that. This 21 great officer then calls me to his office. And he is like कि बेटा आप क्या है बुनाई आपको नौकरी लगवा के दिए? And I was like sir no. My father has absolutely nothing to do with the World Bank at all like दूर दूर से. तो आपने किस तरह किस तरह jack लगा ना आपका? कि आप यह dollar वाली नौकरी कर रहे हैं and he didn't talk anything about what I went there. मैंने आधे घंटे के लिए उनको training कराई सारा कुछ. उन्होंने सुनी भी नहीं वह. Yes. All he could think was और यह बड़ा बड़ा regular feature है कि all he could think was यह बाइस साल का बच्चा आप मुझे सिखाएगा. Yes, exactly.

But look at it this way, this young age was more in the military, मुज़ामिल, because at 15 they were allowed to join the forces. Right. So if you join, let's say, the Pakistan military academy at 16 and you pass out at 18, right, you add thirty years on to 18, you know, you're a general. You could be general earlier because उस जमाने में general कम होते थे and don't forget that two wars hit us. Mhmm. And those wars really accelerated promotions. Right. You know, with the, with the seventy one war that Air Commodore hit Air Marshal before he would say Jack Robinson. So that that expedited things. No. So I get that. But generally, I mean, across

Yeah. Do you think that had impact? Because to be honest, एक inertia है हमारी society में आज. जिसमें the old age folks don't want to and I'm sorry, you're part that league also in a way. I don't know how to say it in No no, I am old age. But in a lot of ways we were being asked. We have new ideas. We want to see a different Pakistan. We want to see a more clearer Pakistan, but we're being asked to to work around a system that already exists because they're more comfortable. Yes. Do you see the the sort of a a a parallel?

Absolutely. There is. You see, also, what we've done is हमने अपनी नौकरियां बहुत बड़ी करती हैं. जब नौकरी बड़ी कर देती हो, फिर उसको कोई छोड़ना नहीं चाहता. You tell me if at grade 22 I have a house over 10 canals, I have 10 servants, and I know the day I retire I'll be moving into a two bedroom apartment. Will I not try everything in my power to hang on? And most of the times, I'll be successful. Right? And if I hang on, can you imagine the backlog I've created in that pipeline? People getting frustrated, desperate, can't be promoted. So our jobs are very big. You know, हमारा deputy commissioner का तुमने दफ्तर कभी देखा है. You know, you'll be petrified. Now why are these offices so overwhelming? Because during the Brits' time, there were 17,000 Brits ruling a billion people. So they needed to put the fear of God in the normal Indian कि यार यह मेरे दफ़्तरे में आएगा और वह कहेगा मैंने इससे पंगा नहीं लेना. Right? So the Brits moved out and we just replace them with पाकिस्तानीs. The Indians didn't do that. The Indians brought the jobs down to size. They just brought them down to size. I mean, you should go to, I've been to India so much, you go see, you know, how the chief operates and he drives around in one of those Maruti's and stuff like that. So once you bring a job to its normal size, people are not hesitant to leave. They say, ok, I've done my bit. मुझे यहां कौन से कोई इतने, you know, आम की पेटियां मिल रही हैं, thank you very much. But वहां आप उसको इतने benefits दें कि वह he drags his feet at the thought of leaving, then everything downstream gets blocked up. So that's one mistake we made as a nation. ठीक है? बाकी यह है कि, you know, these guys were all very young at that time who, fought wars, who got all these medals and everything, and and they they went home. And Nur Khan came back to PIA, at 4950 as chairman, and then he stayed there for a good ten, twelve years on his second stint. And how did, how did PIA perform during this? You need a separate V-log on PIA, and I'll tell you. And my heart breaks because I've seen the glorious PIA. You can't imagine what PIA was. You can't imagine what the people were. You can't imagine what the airline was. And it was, you know, and नुर्खान की education क्या थी? Metric pass होगा? बहुत हो गया तो F A F S C तब तो उससे he joined the Indian military academy at देहरादून. So, यह बच्चे थे. So they have no Harvard management background or something but नूर खान I have seen him operate PIA. This guy was cut from a different piece of cloth and they just got things done. And PIA has done so many things that even you would not know. For example, the first full length feature film to be shown on any aircraft on this globe was shown on a PIA plane. Really? Yes. We are the pioneers of movies and planes. Nobody knows that because he came from a flight and he got bored on a flight and he said do something about it. And they said, जी के, what can we do about it हम कोई film तो नहीं लगा सकते लोग सो रहे होते हैं और जाग रहे होते हैं so he said वह वह जो headphone होता है वह लगवाओ ना तो he said this is a Boeing we can't even change a rivet unless Seattle approves So he actually sent the director of engineering to Seattle and said, figure out a way where we can show a movie. And PIA became the first airline on the planet to show a full lens fit. Clear what happened? I mean, from then till today, it's Hi. It's a fall from grace. And don't get me started on that also, मुझे अमिल. Actually, a lot of things happened. First of all, politics set in. PIA became the garbage dump of politicians. Anybody you wanted to please and give a job, you just dumped him into PIA. Okay? It was the dustbin of Pakistan politics. Everybody and their first cousin who wanted some benefit, PIA में डाल दो. So, PIA now, today PIA is not because people say कि जी staff ज़्यादा है, फलाना यह है. The biggest reason why PIA is not functioning मज़ामिल, is we are running noncore businesses. It's a seventies airline trying to survive in 2023. It's no longer a 2023 airline. Okay? In the seventies, it did well. Why? Because it was a seventies airline surviving in the seventies. Now P I E is doing everything. No airline does everything. चार departments वह रखते हैं बाकी some outsourced हैं. Their engineering is outsourced, their traffic is outsourced. वह Heathrow Airport पर वह Gulf Air की आप कुछ boarding card देती है. As the Gulf Air flight takes off, she goes back, she wears the Emirates uniform and comes and stands in the same place. Yeah. And now she checks in the Emirates flight, then she checks in the Qatar flight. So seven airlines are paying for one girl. Yeah. So you tell me why will they not make money? Mhmm. But if you so, basically, we didn't evolve. Okay? It was like the famous Nokia thing. You know? What operating system do you have? We have something called Android. You get the hell out of my office, and the rest is history. So PIA is still surviving. If you take the world back and tell Superman to spin it back and we go to seventies, PIA will do well because it's the airline of the seventies. The the first मुर्गी, the shaver that came was brought in by PIA because we were serving, we would, they would demand to serve 15,000 meals a day from the PIA kitchen in Karachi and every international airline wanted food and we didn't have enough chicken. So somebody came and told नुर्खान कि जी यह Sweden में नकली मुर्गियां बनाते हैं. He said, what the hell is a नकली मुर्गी? And he actually sent his team, then he went himself and they signed, MOU and a joint venture. It was a JV. Was called PIA Shaver Limited. A company was formed and PIA Shaver made the first broiler in Pakistan. And now you and I have it five times a day. But the first broiler that ever entered this country was brought in by नूरखान. So it was a pioneering thing. This guy used to do stuff that nobody had ever done before.

But it's also interesting how, I mean, it was a government body Yes. At the end of the day. The way that the government functions today is very very different. You do anything innovative. You do do anything. I'm I'm sure you've worked there, as an SAPM. Any innovative idea is always followed by a bureaucrat saying sir इसमें तुरंत वह यह nap का यह मसला हो जाएगा और अब media यह कर देगा और वह यह कर देगा and कर देगा and you are just आपका सब बांध गए ना. आपसे कहा जाता कि आप दौड़ो. लेकिन आपके हाथी बंदे में, टांगे ही बंदी में, मुंह पर पट्टी है. मुज़मिल for forty years in tourism when I was running hotels.

Forty years I fought with the government saying यह क्यों नहीं करते, वह क्यों नहीं करते? And then God took his revenge. He put me on the other side. He said, जो चालीस साल बक बक करता था ना, अब कर. And were you able to do it? I don't, don't. You know, in in one day I realized that it's not possible. They don't let you move, they don't let you work. And and there's so much multiple people pulling from each side. देखिए tourism की बात करते हैं लोग कि जी K two Flanam. I told the prime minister, I said it's not about our assets prime minister, our house is not in order. And when will we realize that? Every time the first the first thing to you know, fix a problem is to identify or admit that you have one. Mhmm. मैंने कहा, मैं चालीस साल से tourism में हूं. मुझे पता है केटूका और Lake Sephul. It doesn't cut it. Mhmm. It doesn't cut it. When you enter a bathroom and there are five cockroaches there, it doesn't matter if K 2 is 8,611 meters. It doesn't matter. The five cockroaches matter. So, from the cabinet, I don't want to mention his name. He said, पहले तो इतने बुरे हालात नहीं होते थे, I said होते थे. Except that when you found a cockroach in your bathroom in the nineties, you had to wait two weeks to come back and tell your wife. Now that cockroach is shot with your mobile phone and Instagram and everybody knows it before the hotel manager knows it. So the the bad news is spreading much quicker. There was bad news at that time too, but who the hell listened to you? You had no voice. But today, everybody, आप you go, you have a burger and you don't like it. You know, there's a picture, you know, on WhatsApp, lousy burger. तो our house is really not in order, ठीक है? Then I'm glad you mentioned dollars and and foreign tourists. देखें, I I have a different viewpoint. And the viewpoint is that any country that has 240,000,000 people really doesn't need foreigners for now. Mhmm. A foreigner is basically the cherry on the cake. Right. Your problem is the cake. Mhmm. You know, everywhere you go. Taj Mahal for example, it has 800,000 foreigners per year. Right? It has 9,000,000 Indians per year. That's where tourism starts. It forms the foundation. दस हज़ार गाड़ी गई थी मरी. आपने चालीस बंदा मारकर वापस भेजा है. We can't handle, the infrastructure is not there. We don't have roads, we don't have medical facilities, you don't have bathrooms मज़मलबल.

अगर मैं इसमें थोड़ा सा expand करूं. ज़रूर. जब यह बात करने लगते हैं ना तो सच्ची बात है कि जो last one year में एक despondency आई है. हां. And we'll talk about that as well because there are a lot of ways you, you've tried really hard to motivate people around you particularly young people and it's getting increasingly difficult to do that. Yes. This year with the economics and the political uncertainty and all what not. But हम tourism की बात करते हैं दस मसले आ जाते हैं. यार वह DC भी cooperate नहीं कर रहा, bylaws exist नहीं करते, environmental protection की चीज़ें नहीं हो रही, sustainable growth नहीं हो रही, वग़ैरह वग़ैरह. जब आप उसको कहते हैं कि यार पूरे मसला इतना बड़ा मगरमच वन चुका है चाहे वह Pakistan में हर चीज़ ही एक मगरमच वन चुकी PIA को आप मैं भी recently गया. I I had the pleasure of going to स्कर्दूक for a small five day trip with family. And they have an international airport. Obviously, infrastructure is very primitive. All of that agreed. But what I saw was an opportunity, an opportunity to do something in a sandbox environment. And sandbox जिनको नहीं पता उसका मकसद यह है कि आप isolation में कोई चीज़ करते हैं, develop करते और जब वह develop हो जाती है और वह वाकई अच्छे results लाती है तो आप उसको आपका बंदा land करेगा land करके वह एक सौ mile के radius के अंदर बहुत आराम से घूम सकता है. Open space है वहां पर के वहां के लोगों के पास ज़्यादा opportunity नहीं है economy की, economic development की and so they're very ready to be innovative as well. In a way जब ज़्यादा structure complex हो जाता है उसको innovate करना मुश्किल हो जाता है. But हो नहीं रहा कुछ उसके ऊपर. You know like मैं गया तो वहां पर वही था like it's it's very fascinating कि infrastructure is very random. The cost of hoteling is as high as किसी average मैं Thailand होकर चला जाऊं, it doesn't make sense to me कि वह but developed economies हैं tourism में और यहां पर कुछ भी नहीं मिल रहा और वह बड़ा expensive है. How do you think that could be something जिसके अंदर एक plan करके जितना मैं श्रीलंका I was talking to a friend of mine and he was like, यार जो श्रीलंका आपको नज़र आता है ना वह श्रीलंका के locals को नहीं नज़र आता. उन्होंने एक international tourist के लिए एक अलग दुनिया बनाई हुई है और उन्होंने अपनी local दुनिया एक अलग बनाई हुई है और वह एक they are not selling you travel, they are selling you tourism. They are selling you an experience and वह साफ़ सुथरा उन्होंने कर दिया and that's what they used to make a lot of money and for me बजाज के भी पूरे Pakistan को sort करना शुरू करें. आप GB को उठाएं, GB की economy भी उठेगी और सात Pakistan के पास dollars भी आऐंगे. So what do you think about that? Like you've probably seen that कर्दू के airport का भी time कम Absolutely देखिए,

You, you've skipped a very important step. You've you've already landed the flight at स्कर्दू, ok? And there's nothing wrong with what you said. It's very very possible. But there's a step before Skarduwas. First of all, for tourism to flourish, we need to get rid of our security phobia. Everybody in the world is not willing to blow up your country. And I think it's time that we need to realize that. जो पुल गिलगित में on the way to शिमशाल, जो पुल टूटता है हर साल और गांव वाले उसको जोड़ते हैं. उस पुल की तस्वीर उतारना मना है. It breaks every year and the village people put it back together. You can't photograph that bridge. In today's thing where you can go on this software that you know better than I do, every picture on the planet is available. Photography is not allowed. Mhmm. Right? So, पहले security phobia. Now security phobia from to how does it affect tourism? Visa नहीं मिलते हैं. तीन तीन महीना जिस बंदे ने कर्दू जाने के लिए, visa के लिए wait करना है. तो मुझे बताओ कि कौन सी ख़ब्जूरती उसको attract करेगी? उसने एक family के साथ vacation plan की हुई है. He's got those seven days or five days and he's planning कि जी I will land in Islamabad. यहां पर visa जो है वह तीन ministryओं में घूमता है. पहले ministry of industries देखती है, फिर उसको interior देखती है, फिर फौज देखती है. पता नहीं, you know, you when you treat that tourist as a potential criminal who's coming to harm your country, तो who is going to come? When I left, the government or when I was asked to leave the government, we had on my table visa request for 10/2006, 10/2006, all heading to Kirtarpur. Right? And we were looking at, you know, 700,000,000, $800,000,000. File, file, file.

Then the other thing is Why do you need these files? In today's day and age, the data can be online and it Data can just be

मुज़मिल online हो भी जाएगा. फ़ैसला तो online नहीं होगा ना. उसने तो sign करने से पहले दस बार सोच रहे हैं. फिर जब वह sign करेगा तो कहीं और वह file जाएगी. वहां से छोटी सी objection लगा देंगे कि जी यह यहां ठीक नहीं है, यहां ठीक नहीं है. हम रोते हैं कि जी हमें America का visa नहीं मिलता, हमें Schengen visa नहीं मिलता. These guys are literally a walk in the park compared to जो हम करते हैं उनके साथ. You know, इनका कमज़ कम systems तो efficient है ना. हमारे तो systems भी inefficient हैं. So, it's it's the whole package. Starting from somebody's desire to come to Pakistan, let's say from Downtown Manhattan, and then he goes online and says, ok, I need to go take my family. मुज़मिल, it's a nightmare. It's not a very pleasant experience. Of course, if you have contacts, अगर आपके कोई दोस्त वाक़फ़ है, कोमत में है, आज़म ज़मील वाक़फ़ है तो कुछ हो जाएगा. But generally तो नहीं होता ना. So when you make something difficult for people, tourists do not like inconvenience. Tourists like ease. आसानी से जी Disneyland में इस line में लगे हो तो तुम्हारी बारी आ जाएगी दस minute के बाद तुम चले जाना Magic Mountain पर. हमने आसानियां

निकाल दी हैं. हर चीज़ को हमने मुश्किल कर दिया है. चलिए, let's talk about the solutions then. Because you were there and you probably worked around something. यार, जो भी निज़ाम आपके सामने आ गया, आपको पता लग गया क्या है? यह this is what it What's is,

the solution for all of this? Think, मेरी आपका opinion and I could be wrong, I think one mistake we made with tourism is that we devolved it under the eighteenth amendment. Right. You know, you can devolve other stuff, but tourism has to be a national project, you know. People come to Pakistan. People don't come to Sindhu. They could go to Sindhu, Blochistan, but first the decision is to come to Pakistan. जब यह devolve हुआ ना, and this was devolved many many years ago, मैं तो I'm just a new kid on the block. But after I joined the government, I realized how difficult it is to get things done because do you know Texala, is a world heritage site? Half of Texala is under Punjab, the other half under KP. Yeah, I'm talking of the heritage site. वह यह साफ़ नहीं करते, वह कहते हैं Punjab वाले आकर करेंगे. वह कहते हैं जी यह टूटा वाला ने कहा जी KP वाले करेंगे. It's actually a world UN heritage site is divided into two provinces and the other province doesn't take वह उसका बंदा आता है, वह यहां झाडू मारकर चला जाता है, कहता वह हमारा नहीं है. So, I think devolution for tourism, didn't work well for us. Okay? Maybe the forefathers thought that provinces will have more decision making and coordination. Maybe This this went out in the eighteenth amendment. Yes, uh-huh, eighteenth amendment. But जब जब बाकी चीज़ें devolve हुई into रिज़म्बी डाल दी. That's why I was SAPM and I was not minister or something something because technically minister हो नहीं सकता. Right. So, that that was the start. KG devolution नहीं होनी चाहिए. Problem के हल हैं मुज़मिल. The problem is that they are multiple people responsible for one, solving one problem. For example, मानसिरा से बालाकोट सड़ा खराब है. Mhmm. Okay? As tourism SAPM, I get complaints. Now I got to do something about it. So now here's the process. I'll look at it and I go to NHA or the, you know, FWO and I said जी जी कि यह सड़ा ख़राब है. And they said जी हमारी priority list यह है. मुज़दीर ए आज़म साहब ने कहा है पहले हमने सख़्र Hyderabad motorway बनानी है फिर हमने यह कराना है आप ज़रा side पर हो जाएं, ok? Then once if if a miracle occurs and you have somebody wanting to make that road, then they say जी पैसे, कौन देगा? The ministry of tourism doesn't have a dime in its coffers. So, I will go to the finance ministry. The finance minister will tell me, excuse me, I have a pending list the size of my arm and you are nowhere in my priority list. I have to pay the health ministry दवाइयां आनी है, फलाना आने है, damn के पैसे लगने है, वाल्ते, तुम कहां से आ गए हो? And don't forget tourism is always connected with fun and games कि भाई तुम काम से रोके हमें यह sugar मेले पर लगा रहे हो. You know because यह sugar मेला है ना tourism. So, the perception is कि यार यह लोग तो खेलकूद रहे हैं. You know? So, it's like when you were, when we were kids, when we came home and we said we need a new book, you got it. When you said you need a new cricket bat, you got a slap on your face. वह cricket bat भी कोई काम है भाई, किताब काम है ना. हां. So, the final minister would not have any money to give you. Then you go crying to the prime minister कि देखा ना जी यह पैसा कराना. Prime minister would then write a note to the यार इसको कोई दे दो. तो रगड़ रगड़कर कुछ पैसे मिल जाते थे. So it's not easy because five or six different people are responsible for the same project. Unless everybody raises his hand and falls into that basket, that project doesn't get completed. That's why I have always harped कि यह private sector का काम है, उनको करने दें. यह PTDC के motels जो हैं, शुक्र है private sector को देने शुरू कर दिए हैं and now in The GB has already completed the process. KP is in the process of doing it. We we gave the motels, they were with the federal government. We gave it to the province under the condition that within two months they will hand it over to the private sector. They will not keep it. If they will keep it, we'll take it back from them. Right. And they gave it. KP gave it. मैंने कहा, यार तुम कराया लो ना. हां. Give it to मुज़मिल and say, यार हमने पचास लाख रुपए साल का दे. तुम्हारा काम है hotel चलाना. You send a grade 17 का officer के जाकर hotel चला लो, he make a mess of it. He will make a mess of it. He is not a hotelier, right? He is a government officer. So GB ने दे दिए KP's in the process of giving these hotels. तो जब tourism आप private sector को दोगे और हकोमत इससे पीछे हटेगी तो you will find a lot of sustainability. ठीक है? अब K KH में चार घंटे के लिए गुज़रखाना नहीं है, right? And the one or two they made उसके नलके उठाकर ले गए लोग, right? Obviously because यह अकूमत का काम नहीं है. I came because I worked for the आघ खान for twenty one years and आघ खान's success model is involving the community. Right. He doesn't start a project unless community is involved because community looks after it. Sustainability सारी उसकी. Of course सारी Community पर. शिगर Fort हमने बनाया, शिगर Fort के percentage of profit शिगर Village को जाता है भाई. कपड़ू village को percentage of profit जाता है. Those people sit down in a huddle and say अच्छा इस बार दो लाख रुपए आए हैं सब क्या करना है? So the kid says हमारी school की दीवार टूटी हुई है and he said चल तो बीस हज़ार रुपए ले ले तो दीवार ठीक कर ले कोई, some lady says मेरी sewing machine टूट गई है. That's how communities and today if you throw a juice डब्बा in the lawns of sugar, a local kid will pick it up before the management of the hotel will. That's what communities do. Right? So when Hakuba starts doing stuff that he's not supposed to do... So, you know, I had a lot of plans, but, you know, we didn't get time. ठीक है? That's, that sounds like an excuse. But I was wanting to make, bathrooms on the KKH very similar to the Haskell model. Right. Now, the Haskell models are a delightful project यार. Anybody would love to go pay $50. You enter into a bathroom. It's spotlessly clean. Yeah. You leave feeling good और पचास रुपए दे दो उनको यार. वह चार लोगों को देंगे वह सफाई कर देंगे. So I had told the prime minister also कि जी हम along the KKH किसी Village के नीचे हम bathroom बनाएं. चार पांच और villagers को लड़कों को कहें कि this is your project. Right. तुमने इसको साफ़ रखना है, तुम सुबह आकर यहां पर table लगाओ. जो family रुके उनसे पचास रुपए लो और bathroom use करने दो. Mhmm. And those bathrooms will never get dirty. They will always work and the tourists will always feel good about it. So we've got a lot of things working the wrong way around. You know, यह काम जिसका नहीं है वह कर रहा है, जिसका है वह नहीं कर रहा. So, yeah, and there are a lot of other solutions but, you know, in the interest of time, I don't think I should be giving you a tourism spiel but yes, there are solutions available. We need will and also we need competent people with, you know, people were saying कि जी आप इमरान खान के साथ class में थे. मैंने कहा नहीं वह साल senior था. अच्छा इसलिए आपको लगाया है. Very similar to your argument. I said, yeah, that and about forty eight years in tourism. So, tell me about your experience, quickly, अगर आप बता सकेंगे. आपने आख़ान foundation का काम किया. Yeah. आपने intercontinental का काम किया. So, what was, what's the CV there? यार, my best years of my life was spent with the आख़ा. Okay. You know, I don't want to downplay any other organization. They are already dear to me. I learned a lot. And Yara Khan में, under the Yara Khan Fund for Economic Development was Serena Hotels. So I worked for Serena Hotels. But they teach you a lot more than hotel life. First of all, they teach you humanity. Regardless of whether you are of the smiley faith or not, they teach you to be a nice human being. They teach you to help the vulnerable. Every time I used to go to Khongzhou, Skirdu and that was very very often, you know, we were looking at ways to help the local community. And we knew that if we thought of a project, we would get help from from the big bosses. एक एक यह बहुत अच्छी बात है. दूसरा, like you yourself said, they involve communities a lot. Right? And then they made beautiful hotels. So, Islamabad Serena was, you know, I was in the project team. You know, when my kids pass there, they tell their friends, which is a bit of an exaggeration. But, yeah, Abba was involved from from day one in the hotel. So, very nice human resource values like the Tatas. Ava Khan and Ratan Tata are very good friends. Lovely human resource. They have so much love and care for you. And people say, यार, यह तो इस स्माइलियों का ख्या रखते मैं कहा, hello, excuse me. I'm not in a smiley and they looked after me like anything else. So, where's your argument? So, यह perceptions हैं कि जी वहां सिर्फ़ यह होता है, not at all. They are a lovely bunch of people who care for their people. Just what I teach. When I when I go and teach companies like Engrow and big companies कि यार look after your people, this is what the AKDN does. They really look after people. The result is that you get an amazing level of loyalty Mhmm. And then you get amazing level of retainership. You know, nobody wants to leave. Everybody wants to stay in that setup. So, yeah, आख़ खान great years. I spent a few years in The US. We, bought into a Best Western hotel, so we managed it. It was mom and pop operation. Then, eight years with Intercontinental Hotels.

InterContinental जो है वह PC वाली group की है? It

was originally InterContinental. It was an American company, right? And InterContinental's ran InterContinental's and it was full of goras, right, because we didn't have the expertise. And this was in 1964. In '84, intercontinental walked away from Pakistan, and then the, company sold it to, Hashwari Sab, who changed the name to pieces. Right. But they were originally intercontinentals. We had five in in West Pakistan and ढाका. So four and one ढाका. So there was क्राशी, लाहौर, पिशावर, पिंडी and ढाका. Eight years there, twenty one years in आहान. Yeah. Then I spent four or five years with my father-in-law. He was a textile magnet. So, he for a few years I said, okay, you know, he needed some help. So, I joined him in textile those four or five years. I was chief operating officer for Hachu Hotels for last three years before I retired from there. And when I retired from there, then I was just doing random training and, you know, development projects. And then I got a call from the prime minister. And then I I was there and then I got a call from my current employers and then now I am here. What are you doing right now? Right now I am the country head for a company called Sidiki Hospitality Private Limited. ठीक है. And these are Canadian based brothers. One lives in Baltimore, the other in Ottawa. So, Pakistani Canadians? Yeah. Yeah. They moved forty years ago, and, they've done very well from themselves, and they've they have this unending love for the country. Forty years ago? Yet the love is there. Yeah. Yeah. They love they have so much love. They were ready to pump in $40.50, $100,000,000 into Pakistan. They've done well. So when they came to see me when I was in the cabinet, they had fantastic plans, and I said, hello. Welcome. I mean, you know, we're looking for people like you. And, they're still focused, and they, and they've put me at the helm. So, lot of projects that, they had envisaged. I'm starting them. What sort of projects? So, in terms retail resorts? You know, there's a global e portal, holiday resorts, hotels, a lot of projects. And so, yeah, it's a it's a very big company. In sense, right now, it's not a big company, but it will be a very big company, whether I'm there or not. But right now, it's a nine to five job for me. And they're sort of are these just another resort, or are they doing something innovative in Pakistan? No. Very, very innovative. It's it's a they want you to experience Pakistan like you've never experienced before. So, Kamil Khan Mamtaz and all those diehard architects have worked on the project. And if you walk into this resort which, you know, it will be over 30 acres of resort, that's that's the size. I think that I've never heard that before. Yeah. Yeah. So now you're gonna hear about it. Where where is it? Well, we're looking I can't tell you right now. So don't Just so you're right now in a in a point where you're looking for the location? No. We found the location. We are in the Sining Pond. Okay. And we are buying 900 canals. Okay. Right. So you divide that by eight, and you'll get the number of acres there. Okay? So it's a whole world. So when you enter on one side, it's like Disneyland. You know, you enter Disneyland. I mean, this is not an entertainment thing, but on one side, there's a wellness and stuff that you can go detox for ten days. Wellness वाली side है, hotel side है, serviced apartment sides है. So you can book an apartment with your family with your own small swimming pool and jacuzzi, and you spend ten days there, and you have your own kitchen and everything. And it's about an hour and a half from Islamabad. So Interesting. You could do a morning evening also. You know, you could go there, do your spa stuff, and come back in the evening. So all the drawings are complete. The drawings are complete before I join them. So infrastructure, I feel like a lot of times we we we see

infrastructure imagined. Yeah. It's the implementation where because hospitality really is a lot more services than it is the infrastructure. Yes yes. I mean infrastructure Yeah. Definitely is important. Pakistan में मुझे लगता है यह है कि Pakistan में जो management required है, you know, you go to Thailand, go to Turkey and the sort of from the from the training जो from the staff जो आपको immediately receive करता है till the point that you're leaving उन्होंने पूरा एक experience design किया More होता often than not आपके और और tourist का मैंने यह देखा है कि वही पाकिस्तानी tourist भी जा रहे ना. जा रहे हैं वह. Ok. जो कि required है for for world class. Absolutely.

The one thing that I've done in the last five years, I've set up two gold standard hospitality schools. We didn't have hospitality schools. We had a couple. But, you know, with this population base and the kind of facilities, they're not enough. So I've set up one for Akuvat and one for the Hashu group. Okay? So both these schools are into their second semester. Right? In about two or three years' time, they will churn out 400 kids each, you know, in hospitality management and really educated. And there are different departments. Some will be culinary experts, some will be housekeeping experts. So, yes, but this should have been done fifty years ago. Okay? But like I said, ke bare ki nakri konkari. You know, it was not considered the right job. When I told dad, and dad being as modern as you could ever imagine him to be, when I told that I'm joining a hotel, there was this frown on his face. अच्छा, you know. Obviously, he would never stop me, but there was this question mark. अच्छा, मेरा बेटा बेरा वन जाएगा. Because some jobs were not up market. Now they are. Now kids are spending millions of dollars in hospitality education. Every house has some kids studying hospitality overseas. So we will see a lot of qualified people, but you are so right. We keep making infrastructure. We don't have the management to run it. Okay? The building is only worth the people who serve it. Okay? If you walk into a Serena hotel where we spend billions of rupees to build, if that kid is rude to you, it doesn't matter. Okay? It doesn't matter how good the building is. And so, there is that big need, and hospitality schools are coming up. So there's a Rifa school that's just come up. There's a Hashu school. There's a Kuvert school. There are two new schools coming up. So I think people have realized. And also, Muzambel, hospitality is your largest employer for the next ten years globally. Okay? And hospitality is not just hotels. Do you know more meals are served at the Aga Khan Hospital than PC and Marriott put together? You didn't know this. Right? Okay. Aga Khan Hospital in Karachi serves more meals every day than the Karachi PC and the Karachi Marriott put together along with their weddings and everything. So you tell me कि hospitality वहां ज़्यादा है कि वहां ज़्यादा है. The number of cooks they have, the number of supply chain, the kitchen, the staff, the service staff, hospitality is now every. You go to Saint Taurus. There are 45 restaurants there. It's a shopping mall for god's sake. But that entire floor is hospitality. So, hospitality is no longer linked with, a hotel. Okay? Airline management is hospitality. And lot of hospitality schools have airline management as a course and you have to take it. Okay? Cruise management. You know, you go work on a ship. It has totally different dynamics,

part of hospitality. Why do you think we were unable to develop the any form of hospitality slash tourism infrastructure down south? It's it's it fascinates me that Karachi, it spends so much money flying all the way up to Hunza and Gilgamesh. Hunza and Gilgamesh, it's a it's a global standard, experience, at least in terms of the nature. Infrastructure, maybe not so much. But then I see a lot of them just taking trips and coming up to

There's just It's a very simple answer. Yeah. Our weather. Okay. Pakistan is insufferable eight months of the year down south. You you take your kids, go to मंगला Dam in June and you'll kill me. Okay. Fine. I get it. But गर्मियों में कहां भागते हैं? They go to मरी नथे गली not because they like the mountains.

They're running away from the heat. I get it. ठीक है. But then there's so many of them going to Dubai. Yes. Right? And and beaches. Yeah. My my point is कुछ कुछ भी नहीं है. मतलब वह इतनी huge middle class population Sorry, numbers नहीं थे. अभी भी when I came on board, I wanted to develop

cruises down the Indus next to कालाबाद. मैंने कहा if you can go down the Nile, why can't you have dinner? And I'd actually started speaking to foreign companies because only foreigners can do that. You can't have a local guy make a boat and do this, ok? There's a lot of potential down south. Problem सिर्फ़ यह होती है कि बच्चों की छुट्टियां गर्मी में होती हैं. Right. Three months the kids have off. सर्दियों में the kids are not available, right? So in winter time where the South is very very present, you know, you can go to Punjab in in the winter time and anywhere in the Punjab is delightful, ok? But in the winter time movement बड़ी कम हो जाती है because दो हफ़्ते की छुट्टियां हैं. Right. ठीक है? जब तीन महीने की छुट्टियां आती हैं तो movement है. अब जब movement है तो मौसम ख़राब है. So now you tend to go where at least you can come out in the daytime and not die of heat and you're not living in a conditioning. So we have that issue. Doesn't mean that there's no way around it. I think if you make facilities, people will go to them. You know, our our, blue water potential is, you'll be surprised, is a $100,000,000,000. And you know how much we are making right now? $400,000,000. Less than half a percent. Expand on that. Okay. Blue water is what you do with your waterways, with your rivers. In our river system, I somebody gave me a fascinating proposal about sending cargo down river. You know, can you imagine the kind of fuel we burn and the kind of infrastructure? Millions of tons of cargo can go down downstream river. Our coastal area is the most unutilized area on the planet. We don't use our coast at all. Okay? And our, vision of a beach is hand spit in Hawkes Bay. And if you're really elite, French beach. Okay? So, हमारे पानी में in terms of chemicals, to find chemicals for the pharmaceutical industry, tourism is just one part of that $100,000,000,000. Right. There's so many other water things, offshore drilling, transportation. You have Punjab Punjab सारी ज़िंदगी करते रहे और पांच दिनियां आए. किया क्या है उनके साथ? मैं आपको बताऊं यह आपके पीछे एक aquarium पड़ा हुआ है. हां. Everything

in it is imported. Yes. So the guy who was making it, I asked him, I was like, you know, I want मतलब हमारे पास नामाना सहेल है. Yes. It boggles my mind that there is no rock there. Yes. That there is no coral there. Yes. That there is no fish there. Yes. He said there is? Yes. He said do you know that one of the most expensive fish that you can buy out of बाली बाली is a huge market of global fish trade. But the most expensive fish is fish that is smuggled out of Pakistan. But we don't have policy. Yes. So हमारे यहां local कुछ लोग हैं

तो उसको आप sustainable तरीके से farm करना शुरू हो जाएगा. कभी आप ग्वादर के prawns देखें, it will put every prawn in the world to shame. That's how amazing those prawns are. Like I said, like everything else, मुज़ाबाद. We, when, we, we haven't, we didn't cover it well, ठीक है? It's our fault. Can we? Yeah. Can we cover it well then? I think we can. It's it's it's tough. It's it's not easy. It's tough. You got to start आप कहां से शुरू करेंगे ना वही वाली बात है कि इतने मसाले हैं कि लोगों If I was to give be given the ministry of tourism again, in the unlikely event, I would start from the rivers. Your rivers up country, like, from कलाबाग़ down, the Indus and everything is is stunning. And the landscape and all that and all you have to do is have a three hour cruise down the कलाबाग. One and a half hour going, one and a half hour coming. And don't forget that look at the history. यहां पर तो हर दस minute बाद Alexander ने छिलांगमारी होती है. यहां से बाबर गुज़रा था, यहां फलाना मर गया था. So we have so much history and so I would start using rivers first. ठीक है? जब when you talk of sea, you have some security issues there also because वह कहते जी बलूचिस्तान है, फलाना है, यहां पर security नहीं है, फौज allow नहीं करती, यह नहीं करता वहां पर. If I have to go, chief secretary, when I was in government, chief secretary, रोचिस्तान said, sir, I want to take you down the coastal Highway to discuss some projects. Right? I said, fine. When when do you want me to come? तो he said, sir, क्रांची अगर आ जाए ना तो I will come from, you know, this is the chief secretary, right? And then he calls me and says, sir, हम नहीं जा सकते, हमें security clearance नहीं. Somebody told him you can't go and you can't take a SAPM because, so, you know, imagine this is with the chief secretary of a province and an SAPM reporting directly to इमरान खान. We couldn't go. And, so these things happen. Okay? You have an issue at the coastal areas which cannot be not solved, ok? But the rivers are much easier to handle. एक एक तो they are smaller, people are ready to invest. दूसरा, rivers are close to a majority of your population. Mhmm. क्रांची में क्रांची वाले जाएंगे ना, पिंडी से कोई नहीं क्राची जाएगा. But if you were to take your family, let's say, लोहौर and cruise down the चिनाब or something, you would do it. Okay? So, I think you can start with the rivers, get to the sea later, but there is a lot of potential. Makes sense.

थोड़ा सा मैं conversation को change करूंगा. Sure. And I think there is just so much there कि आपके साथ तो अगर पता है एक proper series भी start करें ना तो दस पंद्रह episodes तो बड़े रास्ते नहीं कर सकती but you're 69 years old. Yes. I don't know if that's public or not. No, that's as public as it is, yeah. But you've been very youthful in your Yeah. In your personality. And I know that you've mentioned before कि you've interacted with over 100,000 different youth. Yes. Guiding them, training them, developing them. आजकल का Pakistan या आजकल का जो हमारा हमारा जो system है, जो society है, जो जो जो reality है, जो हम जी रहे हैं. I am 32 years old. I have like मेरा जीप से I've had such a huge belief in Pakistan. वह ICE तो बहुत rapidly erode हो रहा है. Yeah. I speak to a lot of people उनका भी यही problem है. It's not, it's not a political party इसका मसला उसका मसला this is not that anymore. Think we're now at a point where What do you have to say to them at this point in time? See all of what you've seen. Yeah, देखो,

I I, the reason I speak to the youth is that I want to give them a glimmer of hope, ok? And this is not lying to them. एक तो होता है ना कि आज झूठ बोलकर कह दो कि सब ठीक होगा, चंदा मामू आऐंगे और सब कुछ ठीक हो जाएगा. So I I don't get into that rubbish. I I lay it out to them. The first thing I tell देखो, let me just sidetrack a bit. You know what you guys are? You guys are the generation of instant gratification. We are the delayed gratification. Anything we wanted took two months to deliver. You told your dad मुझे कमीश चाहिए, he said ईद का wait करो. You guys open their bloody mobile phone and it's ordered and you get it. Two days there's a guy ringing the bell. Right? Right. You want to listen to a song? You listen to it right now. You want to see a movie? You see a movie right now. You feel like a pizza? You get it in half an hour. Anything we desired took time. Mhmm. Okay? Anything. There's nothing wrong with instant gratification. You guys deserve it. You are born in that generation. You know where the problem comes? Mhmm. Is when you apply instant gratification in the two areas that you shouldn't be. First of all is work. There's no instant gratification in work or in the acquisition of any skill. If you're trying to learn how to play the guitar, guess what? You can't open your phone and press a button. It's not happening. Mhmm. And after six months, you'll be playing जीवे जीवे Pakistan, you know, and you'll be embarrassing yourself in front of your parents' friends because your parents are going to say, चबेगा, जीवे जीवे Pakistan It doesn't work. So if you start a job, there's no instant gratification. And your generation, the mistake they're making is because they're used to that instant gratification, they try to bring it, a, into their work and second into relationships. There is no instant gratification. तो एक चीज़ बहुत अच्छी है, वह ख़राब इसलिए हो जाती है मुज़ामिल कि जब आप उनको उसको वहां fit करने की कोशिश करते हो जहां वह fit नहीं हो सकती. And you guys know that's what you used to. You know, you're just used to getting everything right now and why not? If it's available, you should get it right now. But two things you can never get right now. It doesn't matter how much phones you have, what phone you have. You can't, you know, fast forward your relationships and you can't fast forward your work. This work that you do right now what you're doing has taken you years to develop, yeah? Absolutely. You know, यह तो नहीं है कि you बादार से जाकर दो micro phones ख़रीद लिए तो जी V lock शुरू हो गया. It doesn't work that way. And had you expected that to happen, guess what? I would have left a long time ago. This would have sold. तुमने कहा यार इसका कोई बारे ढूंढो ना यार. हां. किसी studio को बेचो. So, that's basically the first issue that I have with the youth. I tell them कि दो चीज़ों में जल्दी मत करो because दो चीज़ों में जल्दी है नहीं. बाकी हर चीज़ में ऐसी speed पकड़ो कि दुनिया देखती रह जाए. You want a pizza, find a बंदा जो दस minute में deliver करे और वह तुम्हें मिल जाएगा. The youth is despondent. There's no question about it. They're they're depressed, they're demotivated. But I look at it from a different angle, मुझे. And what I tell them is कि if things are really screwed up, tell me, do you have to work harder or less hard? अगर इम्तिहान मुश्किल होगा तो ज़्यादा पढ़ाई करनी है या कम पढ़ाई करनी है. So I said if if you argue with me कि जी Pakistan के हालात बहुत ख़राब है, I'm the first one who's going to raise the hand and say sorry, I'm the one who did this. Ok? The Pakistan I received from the Nurkhans and the Pakistan I'm giving to you is not the same Pakistan. I have played a huge role in destroying it. But the fact is this is all you have. Now fix it. Now there's two things you can do. Pack and run. Okay? And how many can pack and run? Right. Small percentage of the population. The rest are here to stay. So I tell them, I said, look, do not wait for somebody to knock on your door and say, मुज़मिल साहब, बाहर आ जाए, Pakistan ठीक हो गया. That's not happening because ठीक करने वाले अंदर बैठे हुए. Mhmm. So I said, you have to fix it And don't look at इमरान खान और नवाज शरीफ and all that. You need to take charge because हमारी एक बहुत बड़ी problem मुज़मल होगी. We started looking outside. For every problem with us, we have somebody to blame. We have a अच्छी पूपो and a बुरी पूपो also now. We've classified dad's two sisters because that's what we've learned कि यार, I'm good. Something else is bad. कोई भी चीज़ बता दो, उनके पास एक target होता है हुए they'll say कि यार यह चीज़ ख़राब है. So the first thing I tell them is यार start looking inside. You know, thinking that the problem is out there, that very thought is the problem. It's not out there. Half that problem is inside you. Yes, things are tough. You know, yes, Pakistan is in the doldrums. But, yeah, come on. You can, you have to make it better. You may pull it off and you may not pull it off. But करना तो तुमने है ना. You you just said कि भाई for sixty nine years, मुज़मिल, this is not a day I've sat at home not trying to fix this country. My stint with the government was five months. I've been serving Pakistan for thirty five years as a volunteer. मैं तो गली गली मल्ले मल्ले में जाकर लोगों को पढ़ाता था and I am not a rich person. You will think कि यार यह बहुत अमीर आदमी है. मैं अभी भी खिराई के घर में रहता हूं. After forty eight years, I live in a rented house because I had to make a choice that send three kids to the finest schools in the world or make a house. Both were not possible at the same time. And my wife and I took ten seconds to decide. So they all went to the finest schools. Yeah. Sure. And they're doing well, but I live in a rented house. But not a day goes by. If any university or school calls me, I I say yes. Because and my family says, why don't you say no? You know, you're going to you're you're on the wrong side of 69. You're going to tire yourself. And you keep talking of a minor surgery that I had. Three years ago, I had a quadruple bypass. I was playing golf, and they said you're going to die in the next half an hour. And they opened me up before my wife got to लाहौर. But I had no symptoms because I was an extreme athlete and sometimes extreme athletes don't have symptoms and they just close their eyes and they're gone. We didn't mention that before but he used to play pro tennis for Pakistan as well back in the day. Yeah. So as a pro tennis player, one of the downsides of being an athlete is sometimes you have zero symptoms and you have no hay darat dhori and nothing. You just close your eyes and you're gone. You're done. And I just went to the hospital and they opened me up. They said, you know, we can't let you go. And when everybody said इसको second opinion के लिए आज़मेंद्र work for the आख़ खान, इसको आख़ खान ना ले जाएंगे. You know, typical. So the surgeon said, I can't allow you to put him in an ambulance. He he's he will die. So that's where I've come from. और आज I climb mountains with my son. I climb the hill. कभी मैं trail five पर चढ़ जाता हूं, I play golf every day, I walk every day. I have no issue with my health anymore because it's it's all here. And when I went to see my surgeon, he says, you know what's cured you? And I said, what? He said, the smile on your face. He said, we just did a plumbing job. The rest was up to you. He said, हमने चालीस साल के बंदों का bypass किया है जो wheelchair से नहीं उठे अब तक because they gave up कि अब्बा का bedroom नीचे ले आओ अब्बा सीढ़ियां नहीं चढ़ सकते. मैंने कहा कौन, मैंने कहा उस अब्बे को मेरे सामने करो ना? यह कौन सा बाय जो सीढ़ियां नहीं चढ़ सकता after a bypass? Every conceivable artery was blocked in my heart and they opened it up. And today I'm running all over the place. I have never sat down and trained. If I had the five day training, I'm on my feet for ten hours every day and I'm running all over the place and my kids said, अबा बैठ तो जाया करें. And I tell them बेटा थक जाऊंगा तो बैठ जाऊंगा. I'm not fighting anything. So, yeah, it's it's, you know, it's been a roller coaster ride, but I've loved it. And लोग, peoples, you know, when they look at my resume and they say, yeah, wow. This guy's done this, and this guy's acted in television dramas, and he's he's a professional musician. And I'm I'm a musician too. And all these vital signs and all used to play with me and stuff like that. So, I've done it all, especially one of the reason why kids like me is because I've done everything they want to do. This is very important. I could have a PhD in nuclear physics. Doesn't matter. Guitar भी जाता है? Yes. Telescale है? Yes. जाज़ुर आता है, pilot है? Yes. Tell me about the planes.

यह, how did that I interest

started, I mean, it was just a hobby. It was all my life. Was Take a classes at some point? Yeah. Yeah. I had to yeah. I I had a a license. I had to work for a license. But then when we were in America, I flew for nine one one. So air search and rescue. So it was, again, a volunteer. The chief of police said, AJ, if this phone rings, you go and save those people, you know. And I, you know, I flew for air search and rescue and, you know, this was way back in the eighties. But, yeah, so it but flying was never a profession. Tennis was never a profession. Acting was never a profession. You know, nothing was a profession. Profession was hospitality. And another question people ask me कि sir, passion की definition क्या है? मैंने कहा वह काम कितना अच्छा करते हो जिसके पैसे नहीं मिलते. मैंने कहा मैं जितनी भी चीज़ें तुम मेरे से surprise होती हो ना because you think all these are my professions and they're not. They're all my hobbies. I've just done them so well that you think they're they're my profession. यह passion है ना? जिसके पैसे मिलते हैं, उसकी तो लालचा है भाई. Mhmm. वह तो there's some vested interest somewhere lucking about. But when you don't get paid a dime, now this a 150 or, you know, may maybe it's 200,000 kids I've spoken to in the last thirty five years, I haven't charged a dime. Mhmm. I do this free of cost. And the first, question the university says is, कितने पैसे लेंगे? And I say nothing and they think I'm nuts. Either they they think I'm very wealthy. Right? And then if I'm not wealthy, they think I'm nuts. But I've never charged a dime to the schools or the universities. Yeah. To corporate Pakistan, I charge because I've got to get the kitchen running. Right? But, so that's what I am. People call me a malang, they say, pagal है.

So that title gladly accepted. I'm gonna ask you one last question. Ask all of my guests and इसको आपने जवाब देना है जो अभी current blip in the timeline है ना, economic blip एक आया हुआ है. बहुत सारे महाशरों का आता है. उसको ignore करके दोनों rider अगर मैं आपसे पूछूं, you've you've been around and and and you've had a, I would say, fairly fulfilling life because you were able to do a lot of what you, what what got you excited. Yeah. Knowing what you know now, seeing all of that you've seen growing up and you know throughout your life, how do you see Pakistan twenty seven years from now in 2050? Knowing you know अभी आप youth को भी देख रहे हैं, आप evolution को भी देख रहे हैं. ठीक है, सारे missile notwithstanding. But how do you see the things evolve?

Yeah, you've asked, the wrong person this question. I'm just a hopeless romantic and I will always shoot from the hip. You know, if if, Pakistan was on fire tomorrow, I would tell you that don't worry. Somebody's gonna put it out, and we're gonna pull through. And that's my answer. If you say what makes you give that answer, I haven't the foggiest idea. But my gut feel is, if it's worth anything, is that, yes, we are literally we couldn't be deeper in the hole, but I think we will survive. This यह कौम जो है ना, यह एक अजीब सी कौम है. इनको जिस दिन होश आ गई या जिस दिन इन्होंने कोई फ़ैसला कर लिया, they are a funny lot, you know, and they just one day, they just need to realize. And as frustrating as they are right now, right, turning around, is not difficult for them. But like I said, I'm just a hopeless traumatic. You will always hear this answer from me, k, yes, we will pull through. Do you think that realization is is coming now faster than ever? I hope so. I hope so. I wish so. And if until my last breath, Muzambel, I will walk into every room and talk to every youngster and tell him that you have to do this. You have no choice. And that's what I do. My motivation is literally not telling them to conquer Everest. My motivation is to tell them to,

you know, fix this country, y'all. Come on, guys. You need to do this. You have three kids. They're all in Pakistan. Yeah. At any point, did you go to them and say, k, बेटा, I think I feel like you should I tried with my son because when I was working for,

Serena Hotels, I was in Abu Dhabi once and I met his highness Sheikh Mubarak Al Nahan and he said, what is your son doing? And at that time he was, in Malaysia doing his engineering. And, he said, when he finishes, send him to me. And I said And that's a kick ass opportunity right I said, Azun Jamil, your retirement is taken care of. You have nothing to worry about. When I mentioned it to him, he said, I ain't going anywhere. Point blank refusal on my face. I said, do you... Hello, Sheikh Bubarak al Nahyan. Google him. He said, Abba, I'm not going to The Middle East to work. I will work in Pakistan. So far, he's stuck with that. Tomorrow, if he sits on a plane and and I mean, that's, that's everybody's prerogative at this point in time. But right now, you know and, you know, one of the reasons for that, Muzambel, is that I think they've seen their father too involved in this country in every aspect. Mhmm. You know, if their father was just working for a living and staying home, they would have all flown the nest. I think they've seen me so involved in doing everything, Humanitarian, philanthropy, यह, वह. I mean, on the twenty third, doctor Amjit Sakeb and I are off to London for the fundraiser. You know, he wants me to host it. So they've seen their father not say no to anything which concerns Pakistan. So maybe that makes them feel a little guilty as well कि यार, इसने अपनी ज़िंदगी दे दी, तो हम भाग जाएं. तो let's, you know, let's try a little while longer till we are forced to run away. And so they're they're sticking around. For how long?

Well, I don't know. Well, see. Sir, thank you so much for coming in. This was very, very insightful. My pleasure. I hope that we can have you work in the tourism sector again very, very soon. We need people like you. Thank you so much for your service to the nation as well. My pleasure. It was an absolute pleasure. Thank Thank so much for watching. अगर आपको यह episode पसंद है यार बस दोस्तों ऐसा ज़रूर share करिएगा. YouTube वाले like का बने दबाएंगे. Engagement बढ़ेगी तो तुरंत हमारी conversation पहुंचेगी और यह platform सारे subscribe करोड़ दबाएंगे. आने वाले episodes के आपको notification मिलेगी. We accept anything from 1 rupee to as much as you'd like. It's the thought that counts. But anyways, this was सैयद मुज़्ज़ामिलासंद ज़ेदी. You were watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.