40 Branches in 7 Cities But Do Pakistanis Take Loans Seriously? Ft. Arif Lakhani

अरुण ख़बतीना ओज़रात welcome back to another episode of thought behind things. जैसा कि आपको पता है हमारी आजकल series चल रही है with the endeavor Pakistan where we're trying to look for Pakistan's most interesting startups slash businesses. उसमें ज़ाहिर हमने बहुत सारी different industries cover की हैं. बहुत सारे different you know, startups को हमने cover कर लिया है. लेकिन एक particular industry है जिसको मैं आज तक properly समझ नहीं पाया. I've tried to have conversations with people from that industry, but for some reason it's very technical. वहां पर उनको reach out करना बड़ा मुश्किल होता है. वहां पर बहुत सारी politics भी है, बहुत सारी कपें involved हैं Pakistan में. Every पाकिस्तानी is very, you know, very married to this particular industry one way or the other और उसकी वजह से जाहिर है कि जब इतनी ज़्यादा एक popular industry हो तो उसमें फिर हर किस्म के लोग जो हैं वह बहुत सारे different अपने interests के साथ आते हैं और मैं generally ऐसा बंदा हूं कि फिर मैं cup में जाना में कहता हूं यार you know what? Let's not get into it which is one of the reasons why cricket या sports in general sportsman से हमने बहुत बात की है but cricket particularly जब भी उसको properly समझने की बारी आई तो उसमें complications बहुत सारी थीं. Finally, I've been able to source a conversation courtesy of Endeavor team in Pakistan. जिन्होंने one of Pakistan's leading sports management जो agencies हैं, उनके founder को हमारे लिए align किया and I'm glad to to be finally having this conversation. Industry बहुत बड़ी है. आपको पता है sports stars होते हैं, पूरी दुनिया में होते हैं. उनके उनके पीछे economics होती है. अगर पैसा बनेगा तो, you know और ज़्यादा लोग उसके अंदर आऐंगे, बेहतर sports खेला जाएगा, बेहतर sports खेला जाएगा तो automatically industry बढ़ेगी, fan base बढ़ेगी. There is an entire ecosystem. बड़ा important है यह समझना काफ़ी दफा मेरे पास sports stars भी आए हैं. जो दूसरी industries के MMA के इधर उधर के वह आकर यह कहते हैं you know government यह क्यों नहीं करती? Government वह क्यों नहीं करती? You know we're not living in a communist country. Government indefinitely यह नहीं करती especially in a developing economy. कोई ना कोई business sense होनी चाहिए है for any sports to grow. Unfortunately, उसका जो business aspect है उसको हमने कभी उस तरह से grow ही नहीं करवाया until very recently जब Pakistan में cricket PSL की मदद में finally उठना शुरू हुआ and then people realized कि ok, there's a lot of money to be made or value to be created in this particular space as well. So थोड़ा सा business side को समझते हुए थोड़ा सा overall economics को समझने के लिए we have today with us अरसान हेदर शाह who is the founder and CEO of game sports management जो कि दो हज़ार नौ से चल रही है सोलह साल इनको हो गए हैं. Some of the biggest stars वसीम अख्रम, श्वेब मलिक, शायद अफरीदीन को ये लोग manage करते हैं. This episode of Thought Behind Things is presented in partnership with Endeavor Pakistan. अरसान भाई, first of all, thank you so much for taking the time out and joining us. Pleasure being here. मैं थोड़ा सा conversation start करूंगा but actually before I do that couple of quick shout outs Endeavor Pakistan obviously नीचे link दीवी if you wanna know know more about them. They've been able to, you know, curate this entire guest list and identify these guests as well and then साथ ही kick start जो कि कराची में actually one of the biggest in Pakistan coworking space है जहां पर आप अगर corporate में होते हैं आप किसी भी companyयां आप चलाते हैं, आपको अपने office बनाने की ख़ुदारी नहीं करनी तो you can, you know, check these guys out. कलाची लोह और इस्लामाबाद में they have the largest footprint at this point in time. नीचे description में link उनकी डली हुई है for you to know more about them. Thank you for providing the space where we're shooting today. But anyways, थोड़ा सा मैं conversation start करूंगा सलमान भाई, trying to understand you before we get into the whole sports side of things. Where were you born? Early life आपने कहां पर गुज़ारी? And what were some of the themes growing up that has shaped you as the person that you are today? A typical क्राची आई, that's what I'll say

और क्या कहते आम चीक्राची. I love क्राची. I've been a क्राची ate throughout my life and cannot imagine myself being, you know, living somewhere else. Then the background, I have been a Air Force brat. Dad was from Air Force. So, Pakistan air force के बड़ा आसान है कि आप three years posting रहती है. Dad was, we have lived in प्रशाबर, have lived in इस्लामबाद, we have lived in हसन अब्दाल, मियावाली. So it has been very diverse, it has been very diverse and had a lovely childhood you know knowing the culture of Pakistan, the sites and you know we have seen Pakistan like no other one, no one else would have seen because Pakistan is beautiful जब आप जाते हैं अंदर. आपको चीज़ें वाली पता चलती हैं जो सामने लोग नहीं ला रहे होते. So, had a beautiful childhood. Interesting and education कहां से ली? Air force, PF, Pakistan Air force, colleges, schools throughout throughout the country. As I told you पिशावर से ली, कराची से ली, इस्लामवार से ली, लोहौर was there. और

high school कहां का था? Oh, क्राची again, college

vessel. So, what did you decide after that? I mean, in terms of university? When went to Zapest, one of the best times of my life. Started BBA over there but then ended up dropping out by choice because अपना काम शुरू कर दिया था. Obviously I had some hardships as always you know struggle होता है life का. So but then you know God willing things went really well. You know started my own small-small thing by the by in a tech firm जिसमें software हम लोग करते थे, designs करते थे back in 2003. Made some good money from there and then started my own magazine by the name of Take One which was an advertiser. That's where the advertising journey started from. Again it was not one person's effort. It was always a teamwork. I have and my friends इमदाद अली भट्टो, काशिफ अली भट्टो they were my class fellows actually. तो started my work with them. Bootstrap करते हो ना दोस्तों के साथ वह वाला काम शुरू किया. It did really well with our mentor ज़हीर and then came 2008. It was going all well. फिर वह जो slump आया ओहो हो, जो पैसे बनाए थे यूं जा रहा था, सब यूं चला गया and that was a turning point, that was a turning point. और वह, so what was, what exactly was the business there? Like, what was the product? It was a magazine I I own I own a small tech firm we used to do software designing we used to do a lot of creative works. हम लोग ने शुरू में समझ लिया था कि business sense और business acumen में फ़र्क़ होता है. Business sense होगा किसी में होता है बस business acumen नहीं होता. Living in Pakistan now you you know this very well. Outsourcing is one of the biggest things. The whole of US, the whole of you know the Western world outsources its work to Pakistan and India. We were doing it at that time and when you used to I mean when you used to earn in USD that that used to translate really well. उस वक्त मुझे याद है 60 rupees का एक dollar होता था या 80 rupees का एक dollar होता था and we have seen that time as well and that's where that's where you know the business started growing. We understood कि काम करना किस तरह है but again जो भी बना था एक एक हमने पहाड़ बनाया था वह वहां पर 2008 में आकर crash हुआ था.

कितना by 2008 का जो आप crash बता रहे हैं. उसमें at that time how many people did you have in your company? No, we had around 70

people working for us. अच्छा. Back in the days I was basically a young lad at that time. Was 26, 27 and software houses उस वक्त were not that common. Right. February 2010 बहुत सारे आ गए ना उस वक्त नहीं थे. उस वक्त start हो रहे थे और हमारा तो bootstrap था. We we were working with one of our friends who was based in US and हम यहां पर तीन दोस्त साथ काम करते थे. We started very small. We started two three people then it kept growing, growing, growing, went around sixty, seventy odd at that time.

तो वह उस time के ऊपर basically projects आना बंद हो गए. What what led to the downfall? What led to the downfall was

business just stopped. Business just stopped. I mean, then overheads were so high. We had to take a call. We had to shut it down. We had to move ahead. Then obviously when when you know एक depression जैसे हम बोलते हैं एक आपके अंदर एक हो जाता है कि यार आपने इतना बड़ा setup शुरू किया उसके बाद सामने कोई देने ही नहीं जा रहा उस चीज़ को. There is no point and then we said, there is no point crying over spilt milk. We kind of re gathered ourselves. We split our ways, you know, friends अलग हो गए उस वक्त. Obviously, everyone had their own life going on and we had to focus. So that's where this thing came in, what we are here for. That that one year in hibernation gave me the idea.

I see. Why do you, I mean, in terms of what I'm trying to understand is there were three areas that, the third one being the one that you're now working in. But initially, you're working in sort of outsourcing, let's say, software, this or that. दूसरे end के ऊपर आप advertising कर रहे हैं. Advertising की convergence तो मुझे समझ आती है क्योंकि endorsements and and sports management के अंदर. But outsourcing and I've covered this field extensively in Pakistan. तो outsourcing I'm curious के generally has been a, has been a big money business. Yes. And I understand the दो हज़ार आठ का slump, but उसके अगर उसके उसमें भी होता है ना कि ठीक है, सत्तर लोग हैं, सत्तर में से कटाते हैं, दस पर ले आते हैं. Let's pivot, let's move towards another direction. Completely stopping and then going in an entirely different direction which is completely local focused. क्योंकि जिस बंदे का DNA dollarized हो जाता है एक दफ़ा वह बड़ा उसके लिए मुश्किल होता है Pakistan के bureaucratic red tape driven environment में काम करना. I'm curious कि why did you decide किया मैंने यह वाला काम ही नहीं करना? Were you too dependent on at the time obviously आज बड़ी दुनिया फ़र्क़ है, up फ़र्क़ है, सारा कुछ है. Were you too dependent on sort of your your your partner in The US who was the only one getting projects? No no, I tell you. It's it's always the failure was on this part? It's always a skill set. I mean, I know how to sell,

and I'm the strategy guy. Then there's a finance guy. Then there is the operations guy, the most important one. And then there is a development team. So I am not a techie I am not a techie I never was a techie but I know how to sell I know how to connect the dots I know what you need even if you don't know what you need I know what you need that's what the skill set I had and उस वक्त एक एक जो synergy बनती है वह टूट गई थी between partners and again obviously at that time everyone हर कोई अपना सोच रहा होता है. They they decided to go their own way that was the reason of shutting down nothing else. Makes sense And so you guys shut down in 2008 and 2009 is when they started. You started a year of hibernation. Oh, yes.

2627, it's a big deal और specially जब बंदा थोड़ा सा high flowing, high rolling होता ना, dollar में कमा रहा होता तो फिर ज़्यादा उस age के अंदर उस सारे के बाद जब आपका पहला slump आता है, it humbles you 100%. But, you know, it's it's difficult also. What were what was that one year like emotionally for you as well as in terms of figuring out your next steps in career? I was down. I mean,

was nothing happening. Again, with no tech support, I felt that there was this link that totally went off. And you see, it's always a cycle. You cannot do anything alone. It has to be. और उसके बाद से यह realize हुआ कि it's always a team work thing. It's not one man show. Yes, I could. I mean, I can do that for any firm. But in when you do business, it has to be a synergy of those, you know, engine parts. All those four, five things should be working together in tandem to each other. But it did not work out at that time and that's where one year low I did not know what to do. क्या करूं? किस तरह करूं? Tried different things Did you try to get another job?

You try Yes, a few other

I did. Yes, I did. Did not work out because not being a techie did not help. उस time पर और cut होता था. You know, वह वाला time था. Pakistan में Pakistan में सबसे आसान होता है जी ban कर दो. उस वक्त अपना एक छोटा सा मैंने software बनवाया था. I some faithful something I named it faithful billion. I thought कि यार अगर वह नहीं तो यह चलेगा. होता है ना we we ok yes in that time I made this site Chemist Pakistan because हम tech वाले थे हमने कहा let's make Chemist Pakistan where we can deliver medicines to houses and it was और cut and Facebook initial time. आते थे orders but we had no third party delivery systems available back in those days. No one understood. हमें भी नहीं समझ में आया कि delivery कितना करेंगे? अपना अगर करेंगे तो we would go in losses, we won't make money. After four years we had दवागों. You know, the whole ecosystem changed at that time. They they tried a lot of stuff, tried to do something in the property, did not work out. Well, it was basically it's south from every other angle which we were working on. Out of the blue I get a call from a friend of mine saying, गिरार स्लान you own the magazine. Why not? I know you do you do fashion shows, you do a lot of events and why not work with वसीमा क्रम? I said ok, वसीम आक्रम I mean we have grown with posters of वसीम वकार and and on and from our childhood. क्यों नहीं करेंगे? I gave a call to वसीम भाई and he said कि come and meet me. I unfortunately that time was going to Germany. I said वसीम भाई मैं आपसे दो महीने बाद आकर मिलता हूं. He said ok. Then I realized you are involved. Did you know him beforehand? No no no no no no. Just in posters. Just as a hero. Just as a legend. Just as you know the वसीम आक्रम.

No sir, am curious how did that sort of connect happened? A random friend, a random friend messaged? Because he moved from अच्छा, so he gave you the number of वसीमा क्रम के RIS को contact him and there is some work

there. Yes, I see. Because he moved from लोहो to कराची. He relocated and he was looking for someone in कराची. That's where that happened. I see. And someone to manage his affairs basically. Yes, yes, yes, yes. अब वहां पर when I was in the flight ना then I realized यार वसीम आक्रम से बात हुई थी. I should have you know taken the opportunity and could have closed the deal there. I took my time two months three months वापस आया. फिर our first call I did was hello वसीमा ये सामिलिकुम कैसे हैं भी ठाक? He said जी आ गए हम वापस आइए मिलने. So he told me he interviewed a lot of people in between but I don't know what clicked when I met him the first meeting and till date it has been sixteen years. He was my first client and that is where sports manager से पहले था. एक था कि we want to do something in sports and you know everything kind of set in place and the first line we got was वज़ीम अक्रम and that's where the snowball effect started. And what sort of work were you doing for वज़ीम भाई? Same. You see, we are we are a management agency. We are not an agency which just takes, you know, a cut off what they bring. A management agency is supposed to do everything for you. Managing investments, investments, managing daily routines, managing deals, managing contracts, managing, portfolios, curating portfolios, business development, crisis management, image management, digital management. I mean it's a big ambit and we take care of them digitally as well, socially as well and we kind of make sure that they get what they deserve in terms of stature and that's what we take pride in that we are professional sports management agency not only for वसीम भाई for everyone else and and we don't take everyone on board कि जी आप भी आ जाओ, भी आ जाओ नहीं ऐसे नहीं होता we do our scrutiny we have to make sure that whose ever is coming on board needs to have that substance. I mean अगर मैं आपको थोड़े से problems बताऊं हमारे पास concept है कि अपने cousin को manager रख लिया जाता है या अपने cousin को agent रख लिया बहुत बहुत normal concept है यहां पर. Post PSL चीज़ें बेहतर हुई हैं लेकिन I I उस वक्त in 2000 from 2009 to 2015 I doubt we ever encounter any sports management agency. None, none whatsoever and cousins manage कर रहे होते हैं जो भी दिस्तों की cousins कर रहे या players direct कर रहे हैं wives कर रही हैं.

We kind of formalize that we you know, we said कि अगर आपको यह चाहिए तुम्हारे तो then we started growing as well. People start coming to us. क्या ये लोग तो काम करवा रहे होते हैं. How did you go from वसीम अकरम to, I mean, I I obviously my understanding is कि there was just this one gentleman. You hadn't worked in sports management before. So that stint with वसीम भाई would have helped you also make sense of how this entire ecosystem worked. Initially, जो आपका उनके साथ काम था, पहले तो while right now you're doing a bunch of things that I understand, but that's sixteen years of journey. Right? So I'm curious about the first couple of years. What was happening there? And how did you go from, let's say, वसीमा क्रम to the next person to the next person and then eventually formalizing it into a bit of a more structured engine? जिसके कोई भी theoretically आ सकता है and and and can sort of but what how did that sort of evolution happen?

Even for us we had no benchmark. We don't know. We never knew how to do it. करना क्या होगा? कैसे करना होगा? It was a learning process. I'll give a very you know example close example जो मेरे बहुत close है. 02/2011 big deal I closed in Dubai where I was supposed to take वसीमा क्रम and make him do the opening of this outlet and all and there were you know if in terms of m aapurju for the sake of example I'll say you're getting 10 rupees for it, 100 rupees for it. The person gave me when I landed he gave me 60 rupees in hand, career है sir आपके पैसे. मैं खेल रही हूं. अब me being the new guy में I was happy कि यार मेरे इतने पैसे वन जाएंगे and you know my cut is as much. The event happened everything went well and then this guy gave me a check of the remaining amount. I went to the bank and try to get it encashed, it bounced. अब मेरे लिए it was you know traumatic कि यार, मैं कहां से पैसे दूंगा? और I went to वसीम भाई and with my check you know I had no money at that time and वसीम मैंने कहा यार यह अपना check क्यों दे रहे हो तुम? मैंने कहा यह बंदा is not there. कह रहा है did you scrutiny? You know ढूंढा आपने अपना homework पूरा किया? मैंने कहा यार he went to his home. He's not there, went to office, not there, ran away, blah blah blah, all done, dusted out of Dubai now. What he did was and was a very substantial amount by the way. What he did was he tore the check and all he said was learn. For me that that meant a lot because एक एक as a mentor कोई भी और होता ना वह अपने उस पैसे को नहीं जाने देता, सवार नहीं पता होता. He as a mentor told me learn this happens. हमारे हमारे culture में यह वाला cheating का system, हमारे culture में it sits there. तो you have to make sure you double check, triple check these things. That's how I learned. It was, it was a slow process and in fact till date I am learning. I won't say I am an expert on it but I have been doing it for the longest and अभी भी हमारे Market में people are in for quick money. You know short term goals होते ना कि वह पैसे बनाकर निकलना चाहते हैं. We have been doing it for so long now कि हम वही चलता रहा you know it it kept going on one deal, second deal then we knew how to I knew how to negotiate. I knew how much money is in your pocket. That's what I have that's an art which I have learnt over the years कि यार star को मैंने devalue नहीं करना, आपको मैंने छीलना नहीं है. There's a sweet spot there where you are happy and the client is happy and it's it's you know magic. That's what we worked on and then again जब वसीम भाई को काम मिलता है तो दूसरे भी आ गए साथ. ठीक है? Then we we approached a few, some approached us and we never did any contract. We we say we'll bring work for you. We'll bring work for you. We will not bog you down with paperwork and all. It's an irony कि हमारे मैं आपसे paperwork तो कर लूंगा but then I will not give you business. There is no point of that. At the end of the day, it's a commercial market. It's a commercial industry where you are supposed to make money and I'm supposed to make money for you. The more you make, the more I make and that's something which I mean that's that's the norm, that's the norm. तो एक एक करके लोग बढ़ते गए one step at a time and now we are as I told you we are a full fridge agency not only cricket we do all the other sports as well. In fact we are the apparently the only sports management company in Pakistan which caters to all the sports in Pakistan whether it be cricket, football, hockey. I blame the brands here to be very frank. There is a legend वसीमा क्रम, शायद अफरीदी, you know, वकार यूनज़. There is another legend सोहिल अब्बास हमारे hockey keys the great greatest goats जिसे हम बोलते हैं सही है. People don't know I mean brands should highlight,

brands should invest. But that's a, so I've had this conversation quite quite often with sports stars. आपने ख़ुद थोड़ी देर पहले बोला, आपने कहा business है, right? तो brand का तो यह काम नहीं है ना? Brand तो नहीं इस, they're not in the business of supporting talent. They're in the business of making money. So they will go to the person that has a recall and they will associate themselves with that particular person. एक brand क्यों जाएगा? छोटी सी मिसाल ले लेते हैं ऐशाह. अरसालान से, I spoke to him when he had just won his first EVO title. अच्छा अरस्लान interestingly, I've had a conversation with a lot of these young sports stars, MMA, tennis, not cricket but beyond cricket. Arcelan actually was the one person who said I don't really care about sponsors. मेरा काम चल रहा है, मैं चला रहा हूं, जा रहा हूं, whatever. And he was so focused on his work and he's so focused on his sport, कि you could see that he was grow. अच्छा और by the way he did not sit there and cry about the fact कि यार we don't have facilities in Pakistan. वह वह token वाली दुकान पर ही जाकर खेल खेल उसने ना सिर्फ़ अपने आप को six times champion बनाया बल्कि वह अब पूरा ecosystem build कर चुका है where Pakistan is is is ruling टेकन globally. It was only a matter of doing it enough times that he gained traction because of his work and once the traction was there, the sponsors were there as well. Right? So so I feel like the way that people approach the entirety of it is, is wrong. इसी में अगर मैं इसमें further add करूं. But maybe I think the interesting part is, you know, when you mentioned कि, for example, यहां पर मुझे कुछ gaps नज़र आ रहे हैं जो कि ecosystem के अंदर ना पूरे के अंदर to optimize it, there is a certain requirement, जो कि business में होती है. So for example, आपने कहा हम contracts नहीं करते, हम किसी के साथ जो है हम open edit करते हैं, काम लाकर देना which is fine. Problem उसमें यह होता है कि when everybody is working on कि वह अपना अपना काम कर रहे हैं. अच्छा, मैंने अपना net benefit निकालना है. Even तो दिमाग़ में conventionally यह आ रहा है कि मैं if I bog them down to contracts, I am being selfish. मेरे हिसाब से you're not. Reason being कि overall यह net value generate होती है. So it's one thing to say कि यार Samsung के साथ काम करके मेरे star को पैसा मिल रहा है, but it's another thing to actually realize that Samsung के साथ काम करके मेरे star की brand equity बढ़ रही है. और वह जो deal मैंने sign की है, उस brand equity की वजह से अगली पंद्रह deals बेहतर आएंगी, लेकिन उन अगली पंद्रह deals का भी मुझे फ़ायदा होना चाहिए because I have worked hard to increase his brand equity. And that's what drives the the the exclusivity, right? अच्छा यह Pakistan के लिए वह नहीं है. आप globally जाएंगे ना तो जहां पर actually sports management अच्छी हो रही है वहां पर exclusivity होती है. क्योंकि जब आपको यह बात मालूम है कि बंदा मेरे पास बैठा हुआ है, entity हो, हम तुम्हें zero to 100 पर ले जाएंगे. तुमने बस काम, you need to show up. That's all you have to do and we will design everything around it. Right? We will make sure कि तुम्हारा पहले brand बने. So my point is unfortunately क्योंकि जो advertiser है वह advertising में focus कर रहा है. जो agent है वह endorsement में focus कर रहा है. जो बाकी हर बंदा अपने अपने node पर focus कर रहा है. Someone like अरसालान ऐश और someone like उलूमी करीम जो MMA का है या someone like शाहज़ेब रिंद जो कि wrestling की तरफ़ है. उन लोगों को ecosystem support नहीं मिलती. Ecosystem support बड़ी ज़रूरी होती है. For example, मैं कहता हूं कि यार I'm a I'm a rising squash star. अभी पिछले दिनों Pakistan में वह championship हुई कराची के अंदर और उसमें वह squash में बड़ाई से बात Pakistan पर से जीता. अब वह लड़का है वह एक की दुखी उसकी post viral हो गई whatever. अब वह लड़के को डेढ़ रुपए का नहीं पता कि मैंने media से किस तरह engage करना है. अर्शद नज़ीम को डेढ़ रुपए का नहीं पता. There should be people जो कि उनको place करें, उनको podcast पर place करें, उनका make sure करें कि वह TV spots पर आते रहें. How do you leverage that hype, create a multiplier effect, build a brand, and then monetize the brand? The problem is that's a difficult thing to do. So if you were to ask me and I don't want to put you on a spot, but if you were to ask me personally, मेरा analysis यह कहता है कि the biggest fault is in the middle management. Is the one who are managing the stars and managing the brands and not being able to increase the brand. यह तो onus of responsibility है नहीं brand की. What would your thought be on that? Ok,

very simple. You see, brand and client are not the only ones. There are multiple stakeholders in this. सबसे पहले तो state का काम होता है कि काम करें. अब जब state काम नहीं कर रही तो भाई मैं आ जाता हूं. अब मैं obviously it's as I told you it's a commercial market. ऐसा नहीं है कि we don't do contracts. We do contracts but not with everyone because मैं आपसे contract करूंगा. There is a MG that you would be expecting. किरिस्तान is going to make me 10,000,000 a year maybe you know and if I am not able to do that you're going to go and bad mouth me. That's the culture. तो we have our own stars who whatever happens are not going to leave us. That's how it is. It's a cultural thing. That's the reason I don't want to go into contract with you. मुझे मुझे पता है आपको दो दो रुपए कोई और देगा ना आप चले जाएंगे वहां पर because you don't have that vision and that's where I don't take any you know every Tom Dick and Harry cannot just come on board and work with us. That's the simple answer to what you asked. You need to share the vision. It's a literally three to five year plan that we give to you. If you are my client, I'll tell you do this, don't do this. Knowing what not to do is more important than in knowing what to do.

बड़ा important है यह वाला बात. हम लोग नहीं सोचते हैं वाला. What's the vision? Let's assume मैं कहता हूं कि I'm a, I'm an up and coming. वह क्या चल रहा है Pakistan में? There's paddle but there's pickleball. Pickleball, yeah. I think. नहीं, pickleball is the American hydration. Paddle is Pakistan, right? So, मैं कहता हूं कि यार मैं paddle का एक sports star हूं Pakistan. आजकल बड़ा famous हो रहा है, leagues भी वन गई हैं, infrastructure भी पूरा हो गया है. मैं आता हूं आपके पास. मैं कहता हूं कि असलान भाई मुझे manage करें. Mhmm. अब आप मुझे क्या vision देंगे to to be able to work well? Firstly, I'll see if it is worth it or not. And the way I see it our market is not that big.

It's a fad in my opinion. It's there, it's good physical activity, it's good fun. Yes there are serious people over there. ऐसा नहीं है नहीं लोग काम कर रहे हैं, local काम कर रहे हैं. इसमें I give you example of pedal worse and we are integral part of pedal worse that's play state of the art facility in कराची only and they do tournaments they are going to send people they have trainers from abroad coming in they are serious about it but the sports in general the quantum is not big enough It's a small. अब market size को देखते हुए आप काम करते हैं ना. I cannot make a star out of a small puddle. You need, you need to understand that कि जब magnitude ही नहीं है, market size ही नहीं है, brand पैसे नहीं देगा. हां, brand hike के पैसे दे देता है. Brand event के पैसे दे देता है. लेकिन brand आप में invest नहीं करेगा. Until less उस brand का vision ना हो. There are brands who do that and that's where we we I can I can name a few you know जो long term इनका जिनका vision होता है they invest in the player? Red Bull did the same for अर्सलान Ash. It has been there for him for the longest. हर्ष्लान has struggled. Again he knew the system. उसको ecosystem समझ में भी आ गया था. उसका नज़र आता यहां से support I need. I have to do it on my own. What we do as agencies? We just correct their direction. यार आप यह गलत कर रहे हो, थोड़ा सा इधर आ जाओ. We just tear their way. जैसा आपने paddle का बोला, if you ask me, it's not big enough right now. Yep, everyone loves it, you love it, I love it. But is the market there? It is but very smart. Who's gonna I mean I'm again I'm not saying you will but I'm tailoring from your experience.

Who do you think is the right person to increase the market? What's the right? Who's gonna government is not gonna do it. Let's I think thesis के पहली चीज़ step पर मैं यह करूंगा कि the government क्योंकि जो वह वाली argument है ना कि यार government कुछ कर दे. पाकिस्तानी government के दस इतने मसले हैं कि sports is in fact I would argue कि वह sports से दूर ही रहे हैं. ख़ुदा का आवास है तो बेहतर है. You know, football के साथ we saw, we saw what's happened. I'm beginning to hear a lot about paddle as well. Paddle association वन गई, paddle federation वन गई. उसके ऊपर जिस किस्म के लोग आंखें बैठ गए हैं और वह, you know, it's crazy. You see these uncles जिन्होंने शायद ज़िंदगी में कभी कुछ खेला नहीं है. वह आकर जब एक up and coming sports के ऊपर बैठ जाते हैं तो फिर आपको नज़र आ जाता कि अच्छा यार, you know, this is crazy. So government is not gonna do it. You you probably require private sector. And we have examples across the world where, to be honest, private sector has enabled the entire ecosystem to sustain. In your opinion, it's one thing to say कि, you know, यह तो हो ही नहीं रहा, बढ़े नहीं रहा. We we know that. Cricket ही है. पचास साल से cricket ही है. Hockey जो थी वह जो थोड़ी बहुती थी वह भी ख़त्म हो गई. इसका solution क्या है? Who can actually help increase that market size? Private sector. वह वही है कि we're waiting for No no no no no. Private sector primarily.

I'll give you an example. Activate, a brand out of लाहौर, ran by doctor रिज्वान. They don't see anything in return. They just want to invest. They want to make sure the player goes up. They and it's not only cricket for them. It's it's new but they've, you know, endorse new but they've endorsed so many players. They make sure that they give the longevity to the product. They understand. That's we need more people like you know people running activate, हिमानी. Those brands, those those companies that private sector needs to step up and by the way in the recent time they have been which is good for us, good for the whole ecosystem but it's not enough right now. So me being ok that's one of the biggest struggles that I have. अगर मेरे पास वह paddle वाला boy आता है, मैं किसके पास जाऊंगा? या तुम्हें government के पास जाऊंगा, वह तो support कर नहीं रही. फिर किसके पास जाऊंगा? Private sector के पास जाऊंगा. वह कहने की हमें फ़ायदा ही नहीं हो रहा. That's the answer. If I am selling, who do I sell to? I need a demand and supply thing for that. Supply है आपके पास. आपका सब चीज़ की supply है. From footballers to you know, paddle players to table tennis players to squash players. I mean, it's huge but वह क़मरत नहीं है ना. You need to understand this and that's where the gap is and that's where

supply यहां पर demand लिखा जाएगा जब तक demand जब तक viewers eyeballs नहीं होंगी ना. It's not the players. People think it's the players. You get the best player in the world and maybe that's gonna create the industry. We've seen with हरसलाह नेश, the best player in the world did not create an industry in Pakistan. What creates an industry is आज पाकिस्तानी बहुत ज़्यादा Twitter पर बैठा अरसान के पीछे हैं. क्यों है? क्योंकि ना पिछले एक डेढ़ साल के अंदर rivalries emerge हुई. Korea versus Pakistan emerge हुआ. जिसकी वजह से देखिए sports at the end of the day and most people tend to not realize this when we have these sort of very emotional and holier than thou conversations of a bigger purpose. Sports जो है वह इंसान की इच्छाई के लिए है. Sports as an industry is an entertainment industry. It's plain and simple, right? News है, drama है, sports है. These are the three major areas जो कि mainstream entertainment में चलते हैं. Cricket की ख़ूबसूरती निन्यानवे फ़ीसद fan नहीं समझता कि oh जी वह फ़लसफ़ा क्या है? तो उसमें जो ना यूं ऐसा बातें सब करेंगे, लेकिन समझता कोई भी नहीं है. यह मैं बड़ा अच्छी तरीक़े से देख चुका हूं. Actual में bottom line यही होती है कि यार India Pakistan का match हो. बिल्कुल nail biting match हो और अखिर Pakistan जी जाए. That's the extent of it. It's an emotional drive that you want to get. My problem is, you know, when when when I say who's going to fix it? I think the genius that has been missing in all of this has been people have has been storytellers, in the in the sports realm. The reason why आपने कहा कि short term and long term के अंदर, I do believe everybody is looking for that short term immediate out outcome कि यार मैं paddle को ऐसे ऐसे नहीं कर सकता क्योंकि paddle में आज मुझे उस लड़के के ऊपर जो भी time investment है, उसके ऊपर मुझे उसका return चाहिए. वह मैं उसको बेचूं और बेचकर मैं आगे ले जाऊं, which basically entails that I am waiting for that moment when the industry has matured and everybody truly understands the value. The genius is not gonna be that person. The genius is gonna be that person which is gonna say, ok, I'll sign you up. You will be exclusive to me for the next five years. I will go look for the rise in shining up and coming stars. And stars does not necessarily have to entail a great player. There has to be a great speaker. There has to have great charisma. He speaks well. He talks nice. Everything. Then what I will do is as and again मैं particularly आपको नहीं कह रहा but अगर मेरे पास एक idealistic space होती, right? What I would go do is मैं जाता nodes exist करते हैं इस battle की दुनिया के अंदर. मैं venue वालों के पास जाता, quarterly citywide league based वह और उसमें हम स्नाहाबाद versus लोहौर versus कराची करवाएंगे और हम यह करवाएंगे और हम storytelling डालेंगे और हम और यह चीज़ अगर आप notice करें तो यह MMA वाले करना शुरू हो गया जो कि again बहुत ही UFC से ले रहे हैं. UFC realizes its gladiator, its entertainment and they're making crazy money on that. The problem is that you don't have those unfortunately, Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't have those geniuses who are ready to take the risk and ready to multiply the pie by actually increasing the viewership and not for selfless. आपने activate का बोला, आपने बोला कि, you know, वह करते हैं not because यार वह करना चाहिए. They should expect returns. Like, it's a business. Why do we shy away from these things? When when it's sports, we're like, oh, you know, brand should come in and they should support. They should should support it. They should make money out of it. Right? And the way to make money out of it is to know when to invest and have the exclusivity to gain the return

when it has matured. That my friend is a vision and that's missing. That's you know the cracks of it. जो आपने पूरी बात की है अभी you make a lot of sense over there. पर वह जो vision है ना long term वह नहीं है. Exist नहीं करता. I mean आपको नहीं लगता कि क्या मैंने squash के tournaments pitch नहीं किए होंगे? मैंने table tennis के tournaments pitch नहीं किए होंगे? I mean badminton के किए थे हमने, chess के किए थे. Chess is nothing. It's it's just you know just make a small event out of it. That's where ना state आता है, ना public sector आता है, ना private sector आता है. Reason being eyeballs, spot on. Eyeballs अभी भी cricket, soccer I mean globally soccer, cricket then you have NFL somewhere and उसके नीचे it trickles down. That's where we are still living in the 92 mindset क्योंकि वही लोग जो स्वाग 92 में थे, my age जो स्वच्छोटे थे अब वही लोग are the governing bodies of the brands. ठीक है? Public sector वही वन गया है. वह cricket में ही लगा रहा है. वह vision नहीं है. I want to take the risk. I have been saying that for the longest but when there is no interest then वह quantum market already छोटा है और squeeze होता रहता है. जब squeeze होते रहती है there is no you know how do I say that there is no low hanging fruit here. You have to work on it. अब live examples. अर्चन दीन पहले के अर्चन में अब और अब के अर्चन में क्या फ़र्क़ है? आप ही का अर्चन है ना बाबा? He is your product. जब तक वो जीता नहीं था तब तक कोई ownership नहीं थी. जब वो जीत गया सबने ownership ले ली. Olympic का वो contingent जो एक वक़्त में seventy eighty लोगों का जाता था last चौदह लोगों का गया है. Correct? So, it's not we it's not about blame game. It's not about blame game. Everyone is playing its part but the problem is everyone is not honestly playing their part. ठीक है? आपको promise किया जाता एक price बनी 2,000,000 rupees का या 1,000,000 rupees का. तीन साल लग जाते हैं price money देने में. We know stories, we know stories, we know हम brand की जगह भाग रहे भाई please पैसे दे तो बंदे के आपने commit किया था. आपने photo opt तो करा लिया है.

Even I would argue sports, cricket itself which is the biggest number driver, वह तो हमें जब तक IPL नहीं नाज़िल हुआ था तो हमें तो पता भी नहीं था कि हम यह सारा कुछ कर सकते हैं. आज the amount of money that cricket drives is manifold. It's like monumentally higher than, you know, what was happening pre PSL and just sort of क्योंकि आपकी जो local league थी वह trash थी, जो government चला रही थी और जो मतलब first class cricket जो आपकी है basically OGDCL versus अपने PIA versus OGDCL. What fan wants to watch that? What association do they have with, let's say, PIA or steel mill or whatever? It was only after, you know, the rivalries of cities came in and you were able to design कि यार consumer जो है वह किस तरह से अपनी association बनाता है और फिर वह eventually those cities then created के पश्चों में song आ रहा है, तो सिराईकी में song आ रहा है, तो सिराईकी वाले जो हैं, you know, again it was all storytelling. They were these random cricket players that were in random वह nobody was watching PSL for the quality of the cricket. One can argue the sports. I mean, I I don't want to antagonize the sports fans. Everybody says PSL has much better quality in terms of cricket than IPL. But what I'm saying is, even if it didn't, the glamour is in the storytelling. Right? Why do you think we haven't been able to emulate the same in other sports? Interest.

What sports do you watch apart from cricket?

Esports. Don't I don't personally I don't watch hockey. Don't want any sports because it hasn't been made sexy enough. That's

the point. It hasn't been made sexy enough. I can try you see but there there are three points to it. There are three people who will make it happen only one person cannot make it happen. That's where it's a team work even in principle. सिर्फ एक बंदा नहीं देखें आप cricket pitch पर जब खड़े होते हैं ना हर ball छक्के वाली ball नहीं होती ना आपको wait करना पड़ता है for the perfect ball, perfect timing, perfect everything, perfect strength वह magic हो ही नहीं पाता unfortunately. अब अगर मैं कोशिश कर रहा हूं लेकिन सामने वाले में interest ही नहीं है तब मैं तो कोशिश ही करता रहूंगा my my part I am giving my 100%. Yes we have done private events. We have done a lot of small stuff but yes PSL as I told you earlier cricket sales in Pakistan, music sales in Pakistan, religion sales in Pakistan, politics sales in Pakistan. Hockey national sports तो hockey है, कृगनी क्यों बात कर रहे हम लोग? What about netball? What about body ball? What about basketball? Private sector में जब आप जाते हैं lob, league of basketball के नाम से कराची में there is a setup. They are doing good good work but there is a group of people who are doing it. See it's not only as I told you say an engine. एक बंदा नहीं कर सकता, दोनों को मिलकर काम करना पड़ता है. ताली को कहते दो हाथ से बचती है, खास से नहीं बचती. That's where I mean I would I would contest कि बाबा please इस ecosystem को हमें और interest चाहिए लोगों का. Look into it, invest into it. Some of them are doing it.

Paradigm shift आ रहा है आहिसा आहिसा with अर्चना नेश, with अर्चना नदीम, with नूबान. वह खुद ही आ रहा ना उसको उसको आपको critical mass पर ले जाने के लिए you will require everybody to start pushing it in the right in the same direction. Otherwise वह फिर यही है we're just waiting. जो चीज़ दो साल में हो सकती है वह बीस साल में होगी. Yes. मुझे यह बताएं कि जो आपके legacy sports stars हैं and you represent a lot of them and you've been around a lot of them. Apart from them monetizing their personal face and personal brand, how much of them have gotten into business not in the कि ok, मैं ज़मीनों के business में घुस जाता हूं, मैं x y z business में घुस जाता हूं. But rather sports and again context for this question is because I know शाहीद अफ़रीदी for example is is is great. He's he's multiplied his wealth quite a lot because he was smart enough to leverage his brand and get equity in a lot of things. यह perfume भी आ गई, यह भी आ गया, वह भी आ गया. But that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is कि जब एक, for example, Friends आपने देखा होगा. We've all seen Friends. Mhmm mhmm. Friends के stars apart from Jennifer Aniston and let's say actually actually I think the major one that actually continued was Jennifer Aniston. A lot about the rest you haven't seen around in other content. Reason being कि there is a logical progression for everyone in particular industries. Actor acting से start करता है जब उसको industry समझ आ जाती है फिर वह कब कब कोई management में निकल जाता है, कोई production में निकल जाता है, कोई वग़ैरह वग़ैरह. Right? I'm curious how many of these sports stars actually are in the business of sports itself. And again, last इसमें मेरी thought योगी. I find it very curious when I see, a lot of the, I'm trying to be very politically correct here but a lot of the, you know, national level sports के जो titles जो जो जो jobs होती हैं ना कि यार इसका selector और इसका यह उसका वह और उसमें legacy कोई इश्क़ होगा. वरना if I was that sports star, I would never get into a title. I'd be like यार इसमें तो इतनी मुझे जो bad press और bad brand equity है, उससे बेहतर है मैं कोई private धंधा करूं जिससे मैं जाकर के दस Counter, counter question to this. Counter question. Yeah. I mean, I am putting you on the spot.

Yeah yeah yeah, go for it. How would you star हो, बहुत बड़े star हो. Being a star in medals, they don't feed you. They don't feed you. Right. Medals बच्चे नहीं दे रहे होते. Medals multiply नहीं हो रहे होते. You need money. Right. That's where I initially said there is business sense and there is business acumen. ठीक है? Right. मोहिन खान, THA academy in कराची, being manage by him, run by him, academy है. राचित अतीव साहब, राशिल तेव academy हो गई. Then we have झांगीर खान साहब, Legends Arena he is a part of that. वसीमा क्रम in his capacity. He is, he was with the UBL sports complex doing this sports facility over there. Then with paddle wars and in अपनी capacity में हर कोई you know एक camp लगता है LG का या U phone का तो he is a part of that.

Again everyone has their own हम यह एक साथ सोच रहे हैं भाई Is कि he a part of that as a payout or is he a part of that as an equity owner? That's what I'm trying Different again, different people, different models and it varies. जो जो payouts वाले हैं ना वह तो सबका धंधा धंधा चल रहा है. One way or the other चार नाम आपने लिए हैं. यही लोग responsible थोड़ी हैं. सिर्फ़ उन्होंने ही वह बेड़ा धोना मैं मैं यह नहीं कह रहा कि सिर्फ़ यही responsible है. What I'm trying to understand is Mhmm. The reason why I'm saying this is and this is not just exclusive to the sports

player था, अच्छा coach बनेगा. ऐसा है कि नहीं है? कितनी examples हमारे सामने और हम उन्हीं stars को फिर बुरा भल्ला कह रहे होते हैं. हम ही चढ़ाते हैं, हम ही गिरा देते हैं. Why? हमने assume कर लिया ना बाबा.

Coaching की अलग classes होती हैं, coaching के levels होते हैं. वह कर कर आप एक system से निकलकर आते हैं. ठीक है? यह वही है ना कि हर university या graduate is not a good teacher. Just because उसने कर लिया वह उसको teaching in itself is an art. You don't necessarily have to be great at what you're doing. You could just be a great teacher, great communicator. The reason why I'm asking this is because वसीम अकरम अगर आ जाते हैं ना आप कहते हैं कि यार and I'm again I'd be curious to know. I don't know if this is public, possibly public information but जिस तरह आप अपना धंधा चला रहे हैं, are you a 100% equity owner? I would be curious if let's say having a big name like वसीमा क्रम be there as a corporatize the business. Right? So you you say कि यार वसीमा वसीमा भाई, आप आएं 20% stake लें. But now in return for that, I need your active involvement in building one of Pakistan's premier sport, not sports management companies in the conventional sense, but, you know, a three sixty degree sports suite. जिसमें आज आप कह रहे हैं कि paddle जो है वह इतना बड़ा नहीं है. मैं कहता हूं कि यार जिस दिन वसीम अख़्रम और वसीम अख़्रम का network आता है और आगे paddle paddle paddle paddle फेंकना शुरू कर देता है ना, उसका multiplier automatically आता है. ठीक है? जिस दिन आपके जो बड़े stars signed up हैं वह वसीम भाई के साथ मिलकर के pedal डालते हैं and इसकी बहुत अच्छी मिसाली है. I don't know if you've recently seen आते वस्लम का Instagram आपने देखा है? Yes. आपने देखा है एक twist आया उस Instagram के अंदर. अच्छा लोगों ने बड़ा उसका show डाला. मैंने एक podcast भी भी देखी एक साहब ने आकर उनको बड़ा बुरा बुरा लत्ताड़ाकर यार यह क्या कर रहे हैं? हमारे star थे हमारे time के. मेरे हिसाब से ना the most genius move I have seen in the industry has come in from आतिम असलम and whoever is managing him which I think his brother is. Mhmm. You know it is an incredibly genius move. The reason why is because he realized कि यार या तो मैं एक ऐसी population जो कि जिसके nostalgia को बचाने के लिए मैं अपनी पुरानी image रख सकता हूं. या तो मैं उसको service करूं जो कि ना मुझे पैसे देता है, ना मुझे stream करता है, ना उसके पास time है मेरे लिए. या मैं overall addressable market बढ़ाऊं, मैं पाए को बढ़ाऊं और मैं give and take के रुझान में जाऊं. Give and take वह क्या कर रहे हैं? वह उनका मक़सद क्या है? उनका मक़सद यह कि यार I need to launch आते वसलम in the generation z and the generation alpha. एक तरीका क्या यह हो सकता है कि मैं जाऊं और जाकर मैं टेढ़ी हरकतें करूं और मैं stupid दिखूं और ना मैं उधर करा रहा, ना मैं इधर करा. दूसरा तरीका क्या है कि मैं जाकर के generation z के जो stars हैं ना, उनको help करूं, उनका scale बढ़ाऊं, I feel like there is a lot of that missing. You don't, nobody is leveraging on the वसीम अकरम brand to genuine. आपने जो मसला problem statement हमारी किया है. Problem statement यह है कि यार sports के अंदर हम उसकी वह नहीं बढ़ा पा रहे, brand value नहीं बढ़ा पा रहे. हम LG की brand value बढ़ा रहे हैं, Samsung की brand value बढ़ा रहे हैं, दुनिया की हर चीज़ की बना रहे हैं. हम sports की नहीं बढ़ा रहे. Sports अगर एक दोबारा मैं अगर paddle का brand brand value बढ़ा दूंगा या paddle की इसी leak की बढ़ा दूंगा, brand ख़ुद आएगा. That's what I'm saying which is missing and which is where maybe you would not be the right person. You would be the right connector, but you need the involvement of major sports stars which is I'll why I I'll address that. Actors eventually. Mhmm. In his if if I may talk about वसीम मक्रम और say शाहिद और say मलिक

in their capacity they are doing it. They are doing it at a micro level not at macro level. They are not advertising it. कहते ना कि I'll give you example of pedal worse. वैसी भाई is active over there. He's not flaunting it. Why? Because There's a risk equity stake in that? Come again?

Does he have an equity

stake or an interest in the business? Yes yes, he does. Yes, he does. Not only there, at other places as well. But at the same time, we need to understand. We judge. Not only him, take 10 names. Why would that person take the risk? Simple, in my opinion. What do you mean? Why would that person, x person would want कि यार मैं pedal को भाई मुझे interest ही नहीं है भाई.

नहीं इसलिए मैंने पुछा ना equity का मैंने इस वजह से पुछा. मैंने कहा कि यार जब तक आप उनका commercial interest उसके बाद align नहीं करेंगे ना तब तक वह कभी भी risk नहीं लेगा. That's where that's where

we come. That's where we come in. We sweeten the deal for both the parties as I told you there has to be a sweet spot. We do that but the market is not big enough. I agree with what you are saying कि यार कोशिश करो, हम कोशिश कर रहे हैं. देखिए ना market छोटा है. चार लोगों में से तीन को शायद दो कोपहरल को पता होगा दो कोपहरल का पता ही नहीं होगा. You need to go at the grass root level. Paddle is a elite spot. Paddle is not accessible to everyone. हर कोई छह हज़ार रुपए नहीं दे सकता. जब वह ग्यारह लड़के जाते हैं team के ground book करने जब यहां पर cage cricket शुरू हो गया है वह सौ सौ रुपए देकर एक cage cricket book करा लेते हैं. You need to know the grass root, the reality of it. अब आप कह रहे हो paddle, एक बात कर रहा हूं. Paddle is उसका जो racket है, how how how much is that for? It's something which छोटा ही तीन हज़ार रुपए. ठीक है? जगह को book कराने का another पांच छह हज़ार रुपए. तीन चार दोसे अगर overall खर्चा मिला मिलू के दस हज़ार रुपए हो जाता है. Would you spend? You can, I can? Will a regular person spend दस हज़ार रुपए on evening for two hours, one hour booking? No. That's where you know there are too many factors involved. Having said that cricket is a team sport. ठीक है? ग्यारह के ग्यारह stars नहीं होते हैं. उसमें तीन चार ही निकल कर आते हैं. Stars में से manage कौन करता अपने आप को जो बड़ा होता है? अगर हम 92 की बात करें तो बहुत सारे से नाम है गायब हो गए हैं. Were they any less? No. It's about managing your aura, managing your you know vibe and maintaining it. That's the, that's the fact. That's where we come in. We help them, we assist them. जो हमें सुनता है good enough? जो नहीं सुनता ना सुने. It is your own choice. As I told you, I would circle down, circle back at the point that it's the vision. If you know you're 10 out of 10, you're worth it. आप अपने आप कोई star नहीं बना रहे जब तो I can help you, I can guide you, मैं ज़बरदस्ती नहीं कर सकता आपके साथ and it goes for a lot of people. हमारी अब team में heroes हैं. पहले में heroes होते थे. अब?

I I don't know. I mean yes we have big I will be honest I will I will say it because I am not too invested into cricket. Pump and dumps. So आप जाते हैं जाकर उनको pump करते हैं लेकिन जितना जल्दी आप pump होते हैं उतना जल्दी आप dump भी हो जाते हैं क्योंकि that's how the market works. अगर आप as a as a as a brand को as a tradable item में देखो ना that's literally how what's happening right now where one day you are the biggest star in the in the country and the next day you know everybody is after your life because of the fact कि आपने क्या चोर दिया था? Elegantly, sustainably अपनी brand equity को manage नहीं किया. थोड़ा सा मैं वापस आता हूं. पहले हम थोड़ा macro की discussion कह रहे थे कि industries को किस तरह बनाया जा सकता है. Let's talk about the individual stars, right? So, I'll tie this. I don't know much about again कि sports के अंदर क्या हो रहा है but I'll tie this up down to very similar dynamics हैं जो let's say content creators की space है. उस पर भी यही होता है. You know, you you people are good at certain things. They gather an early audience. Different, you know, organizations come in because they see कि यार पैसा है तो पैसा एक दफ़ा पैसे का flow हो ना उसमें से पैसा निकालना निकालने वाले दस आ जाते हैं. पैसा बनाने वाले बड़े कम हैं market के अंदर जिनको value creation आती है कि यार you know what out of thin air I can create value and that value is going to generate income for the for everybody. So it's actually increasing the pie rather than shuffling the pie. Mhmm. तो हमारी space में भी यही होता है. मैं historically इसके बारे में सोचता रहा हूं. Creator को manage करना ना, creator का बड़ा एक मुश्किल ज़िंदगी है. As with any public facing person, वह एक काम नहीं कर रहा होता वह एक business चला रहा होता है. Actor on the other hand for example वह अपनी acting करता है उसको काम आता है वह acting करता है उसके पास दस और ecosystem में players होते हैं जो कि उसको ऊपर ले जाते हैं, right? एक अच्छा star एक अच्छे drama में आ जाता है जब तो Airway उसको अगर Airway पर आते हैं तो Airway उसको pump कर कर कर कर जो है ना वह star बना देता है. Creator को यह नहीं करे. Creator ने deal भी ख़ुद manage करनी है, उसने legals भी ख़ुद manage करना है, उसने accounting finance भी ख़ुद manage करनी है वगैरह वगैरह. हम दस लोगों से बात करके तुम्हारे लिए दो lock कर देंगे और 10% हम ले जाएंगे. मेरे लिए the problem with that is कि that is a very extractive parasitic relationship that is driven by कि यार आज तुम्हारे अच्छे दिन हैं तो तुम कर लो, कल हम वह चले जाएंगे. मैं again इसमें यह भी नहीं कह रहा कि आप जो है ना मेरे साथ loyal हो because, you know, whatever nobody is loyal. But if I'm making 5,000,000 a month and if someone is coming in तो मेरे लिए question यह होना चाहिए कि यार can you imagine me going from 5,000,000 to 15,000,000? Can you come up with a plan to do that? Can you say कि यार ठीक है जो 5,000,000 आ रहा है तुम आज भी आ रहे हो ना 5,000,000 पर? यानी कि पांच लाख तुमने मेरे से निकाल लेना है. आप देखते हो, आप कहते यार इसकी PR कैसे हो रही है? यह क्या interviews दे रहा नहीं दे रहा? इसके projects कौन से चल रहे हैं? उन projects के अंदर मैं इसकी collaboration करवा सकता हूं किसी के साथ. अब उस collaboration से आपको कोई पैसा नहीं मिल रहा. That is the effort. क्योंकि जो eventually payout आना है ना उसमें कोई effort नहीं है आपकी. उसमें तो आपने WhatsApp पर बात करनी है deal lock कर लेनी है. आजकल deal literally मेरे मेरे तक़रीबन मैं आपको honest record बताऊं मैंने अगर पिछले दो साल के अंदर ढाई साल के अंदर overall net revenue x amount किया है ना Delivery के बाद उसने पैसे transfer करके screenshot भेज दिया. That is the extent of it. Right? और आपको यह पता है market में ऐसे ही काम हो रहा है. There's not a lot of work. The least you can do is put in that effort. Same चीज़ आती है जब एक scandal आता है Instagram के ऊपर. हर हर creator को मैं देखता हूं same problem. उसको वह जाता है scandal उस पर react करते हैं. मैं भी मार खा चुका हूं उसके ऊपर. मैंने वह मार खाया सीख लिया. अब why can't can't it be taught to the next one कि यार भाई एक काम कर, scandal आए, wait कर. हम तुझे बताते हैं कि इसका best elegant तरीका क्या है? How do you drive the post? These are all part of the brand building but वह unfortunately होती नहीं है. I'm curious जब sports के अंदर जो जो यह यह industry कितनी mature हो चुकी है because that's a much older space versus content.

You see, there's a lot, there's a paradigm shift that has been there since '19, कितना? 2019 COVID COVID times post COVID there has been a paradigm shift. अब जब हमारे पास कोई भी brand आता है, कोई भी आता है, client आता है वह कहता है यार मुझे X star चाहिए इसकी following सबसे ज़्यादा हो. हमारे major लोगों का तो concept है ही नहीं वह वाला. वह तो use ही नहीं करता digital platforms को. ठीक है? And I mean to the extent बहुत सारे ऐसे नाम हैं जिनके अपने accounts नहीं बने हुए हैं अभी तक because they were never managed properly. अभी आपको कौन नज़र आता है market में? आक्रम नज़र आता है? शाहिद नज़र आता है? शोएबख्तर नज़र आता है? Why? Because their digital footprint is very strong. ठीक है? Business is इतना knowledge ना आप कह रहे हो. किसी deal आती है, scope of work discuss होता है, amount discuss होता है, amount transfer होता है, execution होती है, closed. मतलब I have been doing this for the past sixteen years. There are so many people I don't even know and yet at the same time we have very good friends. गैर पंदा काम कर देगा. This is the market which we have been you know brought up in और इसी तरह यही norms बने हुए हैं. हमारे पास देखो as we were discussing earlier the system doesn't exist. ठीक है? I can try my best to sort things out, to line them up but to the extent that sports scholarships don't exist in Pakistan. It's a huge huge side. No one looks into it. अब small colleges like Cedar and all they started doing that. That should be a thing. पूरा west उस पर चलता है. ठीक है? हमारे Pakistan में वह basic चीज़ें available नहीं होती है. Javelin हो गई, football हो गई, equipment basic equipment of things are not available to our players. That's where you need to understand ज़मिल. It's it's you know again step wise आपने आगे बढ़ना है सिर्फ मैं या आप अकेले नहीं कर पाएंगे. System वही है. System वैसे ही चलता आ रहा है. हम system को बेहतर करने की कोशिश कर रहे होते हैं. हम चाहते हैं कि you do well because if you do well, we'll do well. आप अभी इसनाल ने कहा 5,000,000 exam के example दी. How many players in Pakistan are worth 5,000,000? Not many. If cricket की आप बात कर लें. I know, I know people जो पचास हज़ार रुपए पर शादी पर चले जाते हैं. Free में शादी पर चले जाते हैं. I don't want to name them but at the same time there are people who charge a heavy amount to go on a wedding or an event. ठीक है? अब जब footprint ही नहीं है, सामने बच्चे को understanding ही नहीं है कि सुएलाबास कौन है या झांगीर खान कौन है या वसीम आक्रम कौन है? तो वह तो the generation Gen Z and Gen Alphas अब आ गए हैं. Gen Alphas don't know वसीमा क्रम 92 वाला. They know him through the brand Ariel, Ariel Ariel Ho Ho. Right? शायद अफरीदी उन्होंने नहीं देखा था 96 वाला शायद अफरीदी. They have seen the शायद अफरीदी जो शायद अफ़रीदी foundation चलाता है for example और is doing philanthropic work और for example शोएब मलिक is the the perfect example for the fittest person for example. ठीक है? So that's what we do. Recall क्या है आपका? आप मुझे बताएं? Fitness का recall किसका है? शिव मलिक का, correct? That's where, that's where this is what we do and when you say content creators that's a new market पांच साल हुए हैं अभी. छह सात साल हुए हैं ना content creators को. Pre COVID भी बहुत ज़्यादा नहीं थे. COVID के बाद तो बहुत ज़्यादा की बोल होंगे. बहुत फ़ार्क time था. सबने उस वक्त काम किया है. जो legit थे वह रह गए. बाकी बहुत सारे wipe off भी हो गए. फिर again extortion भी होती है. लोग आपको they take you for a run as you told me. For you, for example yourself. You know you have seen the ups and downs but now you understand the science of it. So once you understand the science of it, it goes long. अब आपको you know the formula. You know आपके you know recall अच्छा हो गया. That's what we facilitate that we act as a catalyst over there. If a player, anyone comes on to us ask us will you help me? सबसे बड़ी बात बाबा आकर पूछो तो you need to ask you know हम question नहीं करते. हम अभी भी सोचते हैं हम हम बड़े stars हैं हम star वन गए. No, no, no, no, no. आप star नहीं वन गए. आप star तब तक नहीं बनते जब तक पूरा package ना वन जाए. Correct? अब brand पहनने से you are not you know star. You are a star when you perform, when you keep performing there. Our boys lose track. They stop performing on ground. They think they are already too big. That's where we tell them बेटा settle down. You have another five years. Listen to us. यह करो, यह ना करो. जिसमें जो इसमें वह hunger होती है ना, जिसमें hunger है वह चल रहा है. You know, new new boys we we don't have many. We have, you know, small pack of players who we have five year contracts with. We have contracts with them by the way. In general मैं आपके साथ contract नहीं करूंगा but I know if this guy has potential I have it on paper with me and we are working on a five year plan कि you are the next big star that's where the answer is to your question कि क्या हम five year plan देते हैं? हम one year plan देते हैं, three year plan देते और five year plan देते हैं. हमें नज़र आ जाता है कि आप कितने पानी में हैं? And if you are hungry enough, you know, we have so many case studies with us कि वह star ऊपर जाता ही जाता है जिसमें हम उसको कुछ देखें. On ground performance doesn't guarantee that you are big star. It's a mixture of on ground and off ground performance how you handle media. That's the biggest thing. ठीक है? उर्दू नहीं आती ना बोलो. मतलब सही उर्दू बोलो ना. English बोलने ज़रूरत नहीं है आपको. अगर आपको सिंधी, पंजाबी, whatever, wherever you are coming from own it. हम judgmental हो जाते हैं और हम ही मज़ाक उड़ा रहे होते हैं कि यार देखो English गलत बोल रहा था. सही है? We need to take pride in that. Player वहां पर बेचारा अकेला होता है. कोई mentoring तो होती नहीं है उसकी. वह आ रहा होता humble background से. वह confuse हो जाता है. अब वह जब confuse हो जाता कौन उसे help करेगा? There are so many people in your ear. You know everyone is giving advice, advice, advice. हम लोग कोशिश करते हैं कि please किसी को मत सुनो. दो बंदों को रखो अपने पास who are loyal to you and here the hunger part comes in. If you are hungry enough, if you are passionate enough, if you know where you will be after two years बहुत कम examples हैं. हैं हमारे पास examples ऐसी by the way. You know जो आने वाले time में बड़े हो जाएंगे and we are working on them and they are listening to us. Head down, focus, they are working on it. We will you know maybe a year down the line, two years down the line, not only cricket other sports as well. We don't want to flaunt it. We don't want to show off. जब time आएगा खुद ही नज़र आ जाएगा सबको. वहां पर क्या होता है? Unfortunately आपके पास जब पैसा आ गया, ठीक है? फिर आपका हो जाता है mind out. आप कहते हैं जी been there done that अब मुझे सब पता है. That's where we say please stay humble, please stay humble. You know ले लो and keep going on. No one is able to maintain. वही लोग maintain कर पाते हैं जो समझ चाहते हैं science को. हम हमें यह पता है as I told you. I can tell you what to do and what not to do and as I told you earlier what not to do is more important than knowing what to do. हम लोग foreign

हम महंगी चीज़ों में चले जाते हैं very basic stuff. Very अब आप एक queen it's like a kid in a candy shop. What happens? But it's natural. I mean I feel like I've seen that happen all over the world. Right? Even यह आप US में आप जाते वहां पर NFL stars हैं, यह हैं, वह हैं. तो the problem with public facing work is that people don't realize it. I do humanize because I also a public facing person. I can't humanize people. It's a tough thing, especially when it comes the first time around. Right? जो जो maturity है ना वह आती है कि जब आप एक दफ़ा उछड़ते हैं, फिर आप उतरते हैं. Yes. और फिर जब आप वापस effort डालकर चढ़ते हैं ना तो फिर आपको You know, public तो कर ही रही होगी question. तो I do understand that that up and down. I think जो नए stars हैं उसका which is one of the reasons why I didn't even get into that because I think that's a tough problem to solve. I think that's a श्वेम मलिक you know these people know what not to do because they know the repercussions कि यार अगर थोड़ा सा ज़्यादा पैसा निकाल भी लिया इस time के ऊपर तो जो ख़प आगे आएगी it's not worth it to be honest. We have we have young roster as well we have young roster.

The problem is they show their colors and that's where we don't take ownership. जब मुझे पता है बाबा that there are you know if there is only one person of you know chance to fight you fight but you need assurance

कि will this guy be with me या यह एक और नज़र आएगा उधर चला जाएगा? 99%. That's why initially मैंने कहा ना exclusivity then becomes extremely important because अगर आपकी वह exclusivity नहीं है nobody is going to invest. It's a it's going to be a low trust economy and low trust economy का मतलब यह है you don't tend to not grow the pie. जो अभी आपने थोड़ी देर पहले mention किया था, I I I'm curious about that. You mentioned about Gen z and Gen Alpha and and and this new age community and I also mentioned आते वसलम का भी विवेदा मेरी similar वह. मुझे पता ना कभी कभार, I don't know what to what word to use but कभी कभार दुख भी होता है. कभी कभार परेशानी भी होती है क्योंकि मैं अब ख़ुद इस industry में हूं तो मैं भी सोचता हूं. मुझे पंद्रह साल हो गए तकरीबन digital media में. And I came in at the very sort of literally जब Facebook खुला था ना तो मैं उस time के ऊपर I was the one one of the first ones to experiment there. In today's media industry और उस तरह से. UC bands, you know, we all grew up on the जुनूनs and the नूरीs of the world. And UC मुझे आज तक याद है ना I I'm a huge fan of नूरी so I want to say this very respectfully. एक time था जब नूरी की नए album आई और I remember कि वह जो सफ़ा gold mall में उन्होंने वह एक event रखा हुआ था और they were like हम CDs जो हैं वह distribute करेंगे सबको और you know from going from a point where you have sold out CDs at CD stores to going around and throwing CDs so that someone would listen, was an eye opener for me. You know, things happen, things change. You have your good days and then you have your bad days and then, you know, वक़्त हर वक़्त एक जैसा नहीं रहता. True, very true. And that taught me a lot looking at these guys कि, you know, it's this it's not just कि यार कुछ मेहनत करो, एक दो दफ़ा successful हो जाओ, superstar वन जाओ और अब तो पूरी ज़िंदगी set है. कुछ ज़िंदगी set नहीं होती. मेहनत आपको continuously करनी पड़ती है. I think जो problem आती है वह यह आती है कि कितने लोग उसमें से ना अपने high में फंस जाते हैं और वह आते हैं और वह कहते हैं कि यार मैं तो star था ना. क्या मतलब? You know, one wonders हमारे पास बहुत One सारे hit wonders भी ना कहें. मैं कहूं यार चले one hit wonders भी ना कहें. अपने जमाने में वह बहुत बड़े hates होंगे. उन्होंने बहुत hits निकाले होंगे लेकिन times have changed. And so in the context of digital media that you mentioned. Mhmm. Look, I'm seeing a lot of these guys on Instagram, example, and these are huge legends. And they would have, like, a million followers or something. But you compare their level of engagement and then you level compare the level of engagement of let's say an up and coming Gen z star, movie star. One one point six million आपके roster में एक साहब हैं उनके 1,600,000 हैं. ठीक है? He's he's a huge brand technically. Everybody knows about him. But he gets 5,000 likes on a on a photo. I know another kid जो कि recently एक drama में आया और उसके base इतना 1,600,000 हो गए. वह drama became hugely successful. उसकी एक posters पर दो ढाई लाख likes आते हैं. The the the the monetization is gonna be different obviously. लेकिन जब आपके इन साहब को पता लगेगा कि यार वह कल का बच्चा इतने पैसे ले जा रहा है और मैं इतने पैसे ले जा रहा तो there will be a hit to the self esteem कि यार what do you mean? There is a hit my friend. There is a very strong hit and it's about acceptance.

You know, ok I mean this is again we have dove deep into it now. A lot of our players are in a state of denial. यार हम stars हैं भाई. उसी में रह रहे हैं they are not innovating, they are not innovating, they are not doing something new. For a lot of them they been there, done that, sorted, relaxing. For अब वाला जो है ना अब वाला you see there is difference between real hero and real hero.

Correct?

Right. Content कोई भी बना सकता है. Content आप बना सकते हो, मैं बना सकता हूं. But does your content have substance? That's what matters. Do you understand content to begin with? हमारे sports stars तो नहीं करते ना. हमारे sports stars don't understand content. That's where यह जो नई breed है पूरी इन इन बच्चों की Gen Z, Gen Alphas they know content. That's the reason I'll give a very good example. धनानीर, you know the the kid कितने साल हुए हैं? तीन साल हुए अभी आए हुए? आप सब more or less from one meme there have been so many people similar जो आए हमारा content क्या होता है जी फलां ने कुछ कर दिया वह viral हो गया, traction मिल गई. ठीक है? उस traction को आप किस तरह use करते हो is the most important thing. हमारे sports stars के पास traction तो रही है हमेशा and they have been at it. It's not the problem for the senior ones. अब वाले जो है ना, I mean in my opinion they will be forgotten. They will be forgotten. I cannot name them. आप दस साल पहले चले जाओ. There are so many names which are dormant now. किसी ने plaza ले लिया है, कोई खाने का काम कर रहा है, कोई कपड़े का काम कर रहा है. They are there आपको कहीं ना कहीं नज़र आ जाता है channels पर but business sense business acumen. Why will they go into sports knowing कि यार उनका वह traction ही नहीं है. Traction कौन ले रहा है? Gen Alpha and Gen Z. You have no idea कि yes they are worried. They don't understand कि यार यह YouTube कैसे पैसे देता है और हमें क्यों नहीं देता उतने? That is a code they haven't cracked. The time they cannot, they don't want to give that much time. You see, Gen Z, Gen, Alpha, जी, बच्चे आप जो काम कर रहे हो, ठीक है? जो भी लोग काम करते हैं you need this is, this is industry within itself. Content creator is not just coming and dancing on screen. ठीक है? It's about doing proper research, proper production, proper analysis, proper you know conversation. These guys don't understand that. They will never understand that because they are players. इनका काम था खेलना, age निकल गई. Yes, we have good examples. शोएब अख्तर one of the best you know he is very good content creator. ठीक है? But बहुत सौ ने try किया है. बाकियों ने बहुत सौ ने try किया है. But do you can you recall anyone? No.

That's where Do you think the problem with that is in my opinion and I'll correlate this to the TV media industry. And इसना मैं बारह यह बात ज़रूर कहूंगा कि we have a a really great example of India because India has really commercialized every aspect of their every industry. Every market bro. They've become masters of of of marketing and branding and and all of that. They have the ecosystem, they have the players, they have the support system to to to guide you. Don't know आपने India में देखा ही नहीं देखा. India के जो content creators थे ना let's say बहुत सारे different different उनके साथ शाहरुख खान ही बैठा होता था और India के by the way actors are mega stars like you can't even compare let's say, शाहरुख खान or, सलमान खान or this or that with with whatever we've produced ever. Yeah. Right? Your biggest star is a fragment of what India has produced. But then you look at शाहरुख खान, and he's, like, going in different podcasts. He is going and collaborating with random skit based artists. He is doing all sorts of things. अच्छा, मैंने इस industry को बड़ा closely देखा क्योंकि मैं वह था तो हम जब unfortunately जब तो we were obviously very open. We were not competing at any given time. We always knew that these guys are are are a certain level of legend and, you know, we'd love to have, let's say, the फवाद खानs and the माइरा खानs. Comparatively new हैं, but पुराने भी बड़े stars of the world and come in and collaborate with us and, you know, मैं आपको honest to god बता सकता और मैं आपको इस तरह से भी बताता हूं कि इस podcast के ऊपर भी, anyone who is public facing, so musicians, आप जाएं और जाकर musicians को invite करें. मर्क़ अब जाएंगे, musician नहीं आएगा और हां, literally, you know, बड़े बड़े stars. Know. पुराने पक्के stars. Know we are going this. वह पैसे लेकर आते हैं. ठीक है? देर एक sense होती है ना कि यार किस जगह को आपने free में कर रहे हैं और किस जगह से आपने पैसे बनाने हैं. उसके लिए वह logic है. Yes. You don't go into the media. Media is like let me add to your brand and let you add to my brand and we'll work together. Not saying go to everyone. Maybe I was not a good enough brand for them. But then I know personally other podcasters that had to pay money and they were huge in terms of mass market. Targeted एक socioeconomic class a b की demographic है. The problem then comes in here is that there is a certain egocentricism where every person looks down upon the next generation and वह मैंने ना एक cycle देखा है अच्छा, होता क्या है कि वह actors में मैंने यह legitimately देखा rather than कि वह आए और आकर collaborate करें because sir you are you are great at what you do but you will never be great at this. उन्होंने अपने channels बनाना शुरू कर दिया. अब मैं sir पकड़कर बैठ जाऊं कि यार भाई, you this looks so off. You're like this 50 year old dude. Nobody's gonna sit here and watch you like this. You need to come in come in with a 20 guy, collaborate. What what आते हुए हैं waslem is doing for that matter, right? Which is what I'm seeing like श्रेय बख्तर भाई बहुत अच्छा कर रहे हैं that that's a very specific niche that he's been able to drive but every cricketer cannot have their own You don't need to have your own channel. How can you collaborate smartly with relevant new age young kids without thinking about कि यार I am too good for these kids and have those kids add to your brand? How do you open yourself up and go from कि यार मैं तो सिर्फ़ TV पर आता हूं और मैं sports पर इस desk के पीछे बैठता हूं and begin to go to more newer age, non fancier quote and quote stuff. But that non fancy stuff actually drives a lot more eyeballs into today's denage. What are your thoughts about that? See, it's getting very interesting over here. I mean, I'm I'm loving it now because now you have gone into it.

Yeah. This is the thing if you go to the first ten minutes of what we spoke. Yeah. It's about skill set, it's about mindset, it's about understanding the vision. Every day, every day we get emails, we get I get messages कि फलां बंदों के यहां जाना है, फलां बंदों के यहां जाना है. जहां पैसे लेने होते हैं we take money as well. At the same time जो नया बच्चा आ रहा है अभी पैसे लेने जाऊंगा मैं free में नहीं जाऊंगा मैं. उसको वह understanding ही नहीं है. आप collaborate कराने वाली जो आप बात कर रहे हो ना, exactly you have hit the nail on its head that it's a understanding. How would I keep my player alive? Why do you think वज़हीम अख्रम is there being a 60 year old guy? Why is he still there? Yeah. Why? I mean,

Because he is invested. It's not just you are not going to reap the dividends of your youth. You need to continuously invest. Yes yes and

it's not about reinventing. It's about the legacy. If you see the last post of वसीम अख्रम or you know, you would see him being a 60 year old, being a fit person working out in the gym. Why are others not doing it? Some, सब gym जाते हैं उनके age के. It's about showing who you are, what you are, what you believe in. That's the vision I was talking about. There is no vision. हम सिर्फ उठते हैं, खाते हैं, पीते हैं, घूमते पिरते हैं, सो जाते हैं. Same routine on repeat. We don't want that. अब मैं आपको बोल सकता हूं कि please do it this way. This is a right way. मैं ज़बरदस्ती नहीं कर सकता आपके साथ. उनमें से जो जो उस line पर है, जो understand करता है, जिसका vision होता है, oh he is doing well, He is sorted and जिसने आपने कहा, yes, it's one of the biggest struggle for us as well कि बबब it is good for you. Please चलो यहां पर he is worth it. But वह जाएगा नहीं. कहते नहीं, मुझे पांच लाख दो गया, दस लाख दोगे, तभी जाऊंगा, otherwise नहीं जाऊंगा. कहते हैं श्री कहते हैं ok जाने दो. See for us being agency, being somewhere in the middle as I told you we have to find a sweet spot. हम अकेले नहीं कर सकते. इसको भी same page पर आना है, इसको भी same page पर आना है. We'll make sure it happens in the best possible manner. That's where there is this mental gap as well. Tech, tech वाले जो factor है ना? आप जब काम करते हो यह जो चिह्न, alpha, z काम करते हैं, they understand content. बड़ा वाला नहीं कह रहा है जी मैं बैठ रहा हूं ना यहां पर एक घंटा तो मुझे मेरे पैसे चाहिए. That's not how it operates. यह देखो कहां बैठ रहे हो? किसके सामने बैठ रहे हो? उससे फ़ायदा क्या होगा? I can, I can you know what? Many examples हमारे कुछ stars हैं which were not getting business but then they trusted what I do. I said यार दो काम मेरे गाने पर करें. आगे work will flow. They trusted, they did it and you know it took off. That's where that alignment has to be there. You need to understand the process. You need to trust the process. Simple bottom line you need to trust the process. हमारे पास वह trust ही नहीं है. हमारे पास अभी भी होता है यार यह पैसे ले जाएगा मेरे, यह मुझे खा देगा, यह मुझे काट देगा, यह मेरे you know ज़्यादा पैसे ले देगा and वह trust deficit इतना ज़्यादा हो गया है कि you cannot do anything about it. That's where How do you think you can solve that trust deficit in your opinion? Education

again bottom line. No, but we need to work. इसमें आप कितना कैसे educate करेंगे? मैं let me contextualize this why I say this. The the there is a unfortunate अलमिया यह है. मैं आपको एक बड़े मशहूर YouTuber की मिसाल देता हूं. Unfortunately आज कल वह थोड़े हारात उनके outएं. बहुत सारे लोग जो हैं वह उनका, you know, Pakistan is not very kind to people. Sometimes they they pump them up. Other times जब वह falling पर होते हैं तो हर बंदा आता होकर तैयार चलते पिरतेजना. हम भी दो तप्पे करा दें, right? But I remember this was around two years ago. One of his agents came in, बड़ा वह high flying agent था. He was managing a bunch of different people and, मैं आपको सिर्फ़ raw number बताना चाहता हूं. Public के लिए बड़ा interesting होगा particularly. People think, you know, went from a rando, like recently come back to Pakistan to a big v six. वह लड़के के पास v six नहीं थी. वह agent जो है ना वह v six में फिर रहा है और वह, you know, land cruise रहे हैं और this or that. People were very confused. Long story short पता यह लगा कि जो for example TV commercial की deal थी वह एक करोड़ साठ लाख रुपए की lock हुई थी और चालीस लाख रुपया creator के पास गया था और एक करोड़ बीस लाख रुपया ही जड़कर पास गया था. I could be numbers थोड़े से plus minus 10% कर लें but it was it was insane and and that's where you realize कि भाई, you know, as you grow in terms of scale दस, बारह, पंद्रह, अठारह लाख वाले में तो इतना margin ही नहीं है. जब आप scale बढ़ाते हैं और उसको दस million पर, पंद्रह million पर, you know लेकर जाते हैं. That's when थोड़ा सा भी up and down हो जाएगा ना. आप अगर 10% आप two twenty billion का 10% रखते हैं आप 2,000,000 लेते हैं. आप 20,000,000 का दो million और भी निकाल लेना तो अगला अगले के लिए it's just numbers at this point in time. अच्छा इससे क्या यह सोलह million मिल रहा चलो ठीक है होगा होगा ऐसे. आपने 2,000,000 जेब में डाल ली. अब उसमें trust या तो यह है कि यार मेरी कोई बहुत पुरानी long standing relationship हो, ठीक है? या कोई systems हों जिसके तहत मैं जो है for example my agent never moves money from her own account ever. हमेशा मेरे पास जब पैसा आता है तो मेरा client से direct transfer आता है और फिर मेरी agent कहती है कि जी मुझे इतना percent मेरा है मुझे इधर से देने That's है. The best practice. That's how supposed to be done. There are, I would say there there has to be some systems where you can actually showcase कि listen these are the systems where you can trust us. Where you know कि यह है as it is है, contracts के through हो सकता है, documentation के through हो सकता है but what can we do to create that trust? I'll I'll tell you see there's so many ways of kind of jumping the line over here you know being a smart aleck. When you say contracts नहीं हो सकता. When you say there's so many ways in which वह Pakistan में enforcement ही नहीं है. मसला यह contract से contract तो कर लें. आगे

courts में कौन ख्वार हो जाएगा? चलो आपको थोड़ा सा unveil करता हूं. होता है क्या है? Contract का second आप first page पर और last page पर sign करते हैं. आपने beach में third page पर जैसे पैसे लिखे थे वह third page change कर दिया. क्यों खड़ रहे हो? एक contract आपने ख़ुद बताया one CR का हुआ. मैंने आपको दिया one CR का contract. ठीक है? In actual वह two CR का हुआ था. आपने तो one CR देखा ना legit है आपने sign कर दिया आपने आगे भेज दिया. That's what happens and that's a common practice. That's where you see what happens is it doesn't stay that way. Sooner or later leak होता है. पता चल जाएगा कितना लिया गया था. ठीक है? And that's where you that's a trust factor. उसी तरह develop होता कि आप छोटा काम भी कराएं मतलब एक लाख रुपए से लेकर दस करोड़ तक का काम आप करवाते हैं. Someone like us. ठीक है? It has to be black and white. सारा पैसा आपके पास जाना चाहिए पहले. वहां से हम एक छोटा सा percentage लेते हैं उसमें से या पहले बता देते हैं कि भाई we are coming into equity. We are also part of the equity. You are this, we are this much and it's a long term business for us as well. That trust comes with time. Unfortunately, अगर हम sports management की बात करें, हमारे पास majority of the sport agencies came into being after PSL and those were not seasoned sports managers. पढ़ाई नहीं की हुई थी. काम कर रहे थे आ गए which is good respect. बहुत सारे लोग हैं काम करने वाले. बहुत सारे अब हैं भी नहीं. ठीक है? Short term gains process को trust करें, put your head down and keep at it. That's the right way and keep it black and white. No grey area. सामने वाला ना डेढ़ ओशियार मतलब नहीं भी है ना तो बेवकूफ़ नहीं होता. आप एक दफा किसी के साथ you can take him or her for a bride not every time. That's where you know time matters. That trust comes build and builds with time. Shortcut नहीं है unfortunately से कोई shortcut है ही नहीं and I mean we have been doing it for sixteen years अलहम्दुर अल्लाह. अभी तक there has been you know मैंने आपको एक story बताई थी with myself and वसीम आक्रम. You know where the the guy prefrauded us and the huge amount and I had no money with me but I still gave him my check. He said कि तेरा check क्यों है? तो I told him you know बंदा भाग गया है. तो कोई भी होता, कोई भी दूसरा होता, trust me would have penalized me. He tore my check, he said learn. That kind of vision, that kind of mindset, that kind of strong mindset is needed. अब जो नए लड़के आ रहे हैं यह mindset time के साथ ही आएगा. आप ना वह petty shoes यह जो

पुराने stars हैं. अब आपने जो नाम बताया ना वसीम अख़्रम शायद अफ़रीदी, श्वेमालिक, बकार योनश. Anyone who actually has grown up watching cricket, probably is playing cricket. जो खेलने वाला उसने definitely growing up देखा है और देखकर उसने मुखिया. उसके लिए these are the epitome of, sporting legendary. Right? And I think nineties was a class of cricket, was a class on its own. वह ना उसके बाद आई. Numerically, आप argue कर सकते हैं कि ये लोग ज़्यादा बड़े हो गए, ये लोग कम हो गए. लेकिन influence जो उस time के cricket stars का था, वह just unparalleled था, in my opinion at least. Maybe I am biased because that was the generation that I grew up with. How well connected are they to the newer generation? एक तो उसमें यह है ना कि formal connection है कि, you know, coaching है तो यह है, तो वह है. और इसकी मैं मैं साल इस तरह से देता हूं कि there was a very famous, creator turned actor जिनका जो कि हमारी community थी छोटी सी थी उस time के ऊपर हम साथ होते थे. Again, मैं, सच्ची बात है उनको reply भी नहीं किया आज तक. लेकिन कहीं ना कहीं मुझे वह आया, you know what? I was I was glad that I was able to share that experience and potentially become a voice कि जब वह go through कर रहे थे चीज़ें तो they could trust that voice and say कि यार if he has gone through this, let's try to trust him. And मुझे उससे यह भी समझ आई क्योंकि जब मैं बोल रहा था तो मैं यह सोचा था यह अगला सोच रहा होगा कि यार भाई, तू तो husband था पुराना. ठीक है बाबा, मैं किसी का नाम नहीं लेता but किसी नए star को किस हद तक उनसे connected होते हैं? किस हद तक उनको guidance दे रहे होते हैं? किस हद तक जो है वह transfer हो रहा होता है जो जो जो experience से आपकी एक wisdom आ चुका होता है ना बढ़िया इंसान में, मार खा खाकर. वह किस हद तक transfer होता है? या क्या नए बच्चे बस इस zone में है कि यार हम बहुत बड़े king हैं, हमें पता है आप लोग बैठे अपना काम करें. Ok, good question. You know in their own capacity they are.

If you ask me, हर कोई अपना part play कर रहा है whether it be in going and talking in university, you know addressing them as a mentor again what to do what not to do at that age

whether it's it's there it's through their social media connect होता है live sessions कर रहे होते हैं on and off. नहीं लेकिन वह तो वह तो public के साथ है ना. मैं यह कह रहा हूं कि जो existing इस वक़्त rising star है versus the old guard, how much of the, how much do they Ok tend ok ok ok ok. देखें

कोई भी चाहे वसीम भाई हों, चाहे मलिक हो, चाहे any any star, इंज़ी भाई हों, जब भी कोई छोटा उनसे पूछने जाता है कभी ऐसा नहीं होता कि I will not tell you. In fact to the extent that हमारे अगर if I give you example वसीमा क्रम कोई भी उनके पास जाएगा चाहे from Pakistan across the border anywhere. Knowledge is shared and that's what they believe in. I have seen मलिक telling young boys यह exercise करो यह ना करो. ठीक है? Telling वसीम भाई to the young boys media में यह बोलो यह ना बोलो. उनका काम नहीं है but they are passing on the knowledge and I mean I would I would put that to everyone. Connect है बिल्कुल है. घूम फिर के बाद वहीं पर आ जाती है. क्या वह बच्चा सवाल कर रहा है? Is he hungry enough? क्या वह is he you know wanting to know what should I do? अगर वह उस pattern से बाहर आ रहा नहीं मेरे को कहा था sleep and you know get up do the same thing and then repeat. If he is hungry enough he is he is going there and if he comes to वसीम or anyone these guys never shy away, never.

यह जो नए बच्चे बहुत सारे आए हैं. इसमें they have really been able to increase their brand equity because of being more connected to the internet, I would say. And because of that, वह directly एक time आया था particularly जब थोड़ी सी cricket team अच्छी भी चल रही थी और एक wholesome cricket team आपको नवाईब आना शुरू हो गई थी. I think वहां पर थोड़ा सा मसला यह हुआ कि एक नई fad, nomasy चीज़ आपके सामने आई थी कि, you know, आप directly लोगों से interact करो तो लोग आपके साथ excited हो जाते हैं कि यार, you know what, like, एक cricketing star है जिसको मैं TV पर देखता हूं. वह Twitter पर tweet कर रहा है और वह यह सारा कुछ कर रहा है. तो I think वहां पर that's just my opinion. But वहां पर I think and I know that they were being managed by very solid teams with a lot of infrastructure available. But वहां पर शायद कोई guidelines नहीं आईं because I think they oversold it a little bit. और उसमें फिर वह Twitter के ऊपर जो है ना वह, you know, you could begin to see a lot of people then commenting कि भाई तू game पर focus कर, हर वक़्त ही क्या हरकतें कर रहा है और, you know, this or that. How much of that do you think? Because again, यह जो पुराने stars हैं, इनका बड़ा different दुनिया थी. उससे वह बने, उनका एक बड़ा systematic किस्म का rise to brand equity थी. आज वाले को बहुत कुछ करना पड़ता है. वह सिर्फ़ और सिर्फ़ अपने game पर नहीं चल रहा होता. वह पूरी ज़िंदगी इस पर नहीं wait कर सकता कि यार जब तक कि मैं वह छक्के मारकर एक, you know winning game अपने shoulders पर नहीं जाऊंगा. बहुत सारे stars हैं जो बेचारे उनका role ही नहीं है. वह वह winning game निकाल ही नहीं सकते. वह तो middle में आते हैं उनका काम है कि उन्होंने strong बनाना है सिर्फ़ और सिर्फ़ match को. तो ज़ाहिर है उनको फिर आना है. उन्होंने आकर बहुत सारी और चीज़ें करनी है, innovative चीज़ें करनी है to be able to connect with the audience. But then to what end? What's your opinion about when it comes to for the newer stars to be able to manage their brands? How would you guide them?

I would ask them to put their head down and focus on the game to begin with. ठीक है? आपको ninety two याद होगा? आपको champions trophy याद होगा. अब all these guys are in between a clutter. PSL, SPL, KPL, TPL, PPL, you know so many leagues are happening. अब तो पत्थर उठाओ एक league निकलती है and they are not stars anymore in my opinion. I mean I I own agency. So and star is not made just by the numbers on the digital media. They need to perform there first. It's it's a trickle down effect. First you perform on ground, then you perform off ground, then you need to carry the personality, then you need to carry a small aura and then you build on to it. वह हो ही नहीं रहा. हमारे पास अभी भी हम अपनी backgrounds की वजह से पहचाने जाते कि जी किराची का लड़का है, लौर का लड़का है, KPK का लड़का है. There is so much politics into it. ठीक है? तो इन्हा नटशाल अगर मैं बोलूं जो नए बच्चे आ रहे हैं वह बेचारे confused हैं. क्या यार social media पर हम perform करें या वहां perform करें? बेचारे social media पर अगर अच्छे हो जाते हैं तो वहां हम लोग रगड़ देते हैं उन्हें. अगर वहां अच्छे होते हैं यहां perform नहीं कर पाते. So, is us who is not breeding heroes anymore. It's people like you, me, the eyeballs. जो हम एक को उठाते हैं हम उसी को नीचे पटाख भी देते हैं. ठीक है? अब for example हंसा नानील ने catch drop किया था. It's normal. Catch drop हो रहे होते हैं. It doesn't matter. At the end of the day it's a game. Enjoy it, move on. हम make sure करते हैं जी हम उस बंदे को ज़िंदगी भर याद दिलाते रहे कि तुमने किया था. ठीक है? अब we need to mature, we need to mature, we need to and and that's something which we are nowhere close to unfortunately.

नहीं लेकिन आप audience को I feel like the onus of that on the audience is not fair because यह कोई पहली दफ़ा तो नहीं हो रहा. यह तो I'm sure आप फ़सीम भाई को बिठाए और उनसे पूछें कि यार again we have interviewed of फ़सीम भाई इमरान खान everybody saying कि यार public जो है वह तो यही करती है. वह तो जिस दिन क्योंकि public को आपने emotionally invest किया हुआ है ना? And this is not just a a Pakistan thing. I mean India वाले तो पत्थर मारते हैं घरों में आकर लेकिन उनका star star है at the end of the day. तो the onus of that cannot be put on to the public के और public बेचारी आपकी I mean as as a हम तो बेचारे uneducated भी हैं. हमारे पास पैसा भी नहीं है. हमारे पास गिनजुन के cricket आता है. जिस पर हम कहते हैं कि यार थोड़ा सा हम उसमें से निकाल लें. Right? So there is an emotional investment that goes into that. आप globally जाएं, आप English Premier League में जाएं, इधर जाएं. देखें fans क्या क्या हरकतें कर रहे होते हैं, riots चल रही होती हैं, पढ़ने चल रहे होते हैं. वह stars को क्या कुछ नहीं लताड़े होते. If you're a star, if you're a public facing personality, I do agree. Generally हम इसके ऊपर एक humanities की discussion कर सकते हैं कि यार लोगों को जो है ना वह थोड़ा सा बड़ा होना चाहिए, मिचोड़ होना चाहिए. But being in the business that you're in, don't you think कि यह तो फिर लोगों को, I mean, हसन अली को अगर वह चीज़ impact कर रही है तो there is clearly a weakness there. I'm not saying उसको कर रही है but I'm just saying कोई भी star है अगर उसको negative press impact करना शुरू कर दे तो वह तो फिर वह 3,000 हसन अली out of it. That was an example.

A a player's job is to play and perform irrespective without any excuses. That's where it matters. Right, makes sense.

We're at the one hour forty minute mark, I'm gonna wrap this up as well. मुझे थोड़ा सा यह बताइएगा कि पहला तो if I were to ask you personally, where do you go from here? Right? So एक system है, धंधा है, चल रहा है, कुछ stars हैं, आज कुछ होंगे, कल कुछ और आ जाएंगे. Run at the mill system चलता रहेगा. Do you have like a five year goal कि यार पांच साल बाद ना company इधर होनी चाहिए. सोलह साल मुझे हो चुके हैं. I need to have a certain

scale और और और और new areas that I would ideally have expanded on. Yes, 100%. We do have not a five year plan. We have a three year plan. We have one year plan, three year plan and a five year plan. And in a nutshell मैं आपको बता सकता हूं कि yes we are progressing. We do not want too many clients on board. It's all about focus. It's all about you know maintaining our ethos and we have been doing that and you know we we were grounded. We want to stay grounded. It's not about कि हमने कोई you know झंडा नहीं लहराना कि जी हम सबसे ज़्यादा काम कर रहे हैं. It's just that हम काम कर रहे हैं, हम काम करते रहेंगे. ठीक है? And we are trying in our capacity कि educate करें लोगों को कि sports management होती क्या है? फ़ायदा क्या होता है? लेकिन हम आपको एक करोड़ से start नहीं करवा पाते. You know that's something which our boys, our our new generation, Gen Alpha, Zee, who so ever is next needs to understand. If there is a deal on the table worth 1,000,000, shut up and take it. Because that 1,000,000 deal will translate into a 2,000,001 after three months or five months. And then that 2,000,000 will transfer, you know, translate into 5,000,000 deal. But you need to trust the process.

Makes sense. And this is a question generally that I ask all of my guests, and I'd love your input on that as well. How do you see beyond sports? Obviously, sports के अंदर आपने evolution अपनी देखी है. सारा कुछ है, things have changed in Pakistan. दो हज़ार नौ से लेकर आज तक अगर हम देखें तो. How do you see if you were to extrapolate the same change without any ifs and buts? Government यह कर ले, वह यह कर ले, वह यह कर ले. Just seeing what you see now and extrapolating that. How do you see Pakistan of twenty fifty, twenty five years from now?

Five years from now if we start working on it religiously, we have a lot of potential. It's again it's about everyone playing their part honestly. If they do there will be no looking back. हम ही वह लोग हैं जो champions थे we had four world cups cricket, hockey, snooker and we had squash. We have legends like जागीर खान साहब 555 wins on the trot. है element है, skill है, talent है. Nurture नहीं किया जा रहा, build नहीं किया जा रहा. Not twenty five years, max five years. But again, be honest with what you are doing. Keep your head down and stay at it and results are there, results are there for sure.

Makes sense. Thank you असालान भाई for taking the time out and sharing all that insight. I'm excited to see again हमने भी बहुत सारी बातें किए आए होंकि जो younger newer talent है वह इसको देखकर कुछ वह भी कर लें. I think personally मैं एक चीज़ ज़रूर यह कहूंगा. I've spoken to MYKO recently. I don't know if you've seen their platform. And even generally जो conventional TV है, that was very different. उसमें I think I feel like personally sports never took off. They were never sports was not the channel जो कि लोग लगाकर बैठे हुए थे apart from cricket. होता है ना एक channel के ऊपर जाने का फ़ायदा तभी होता है. अगर बस वह infinitely चल रहा है और उसमें कोई नई चीज़ आ रही है तो उससे भी eyeballs आ रही हैं. तो एक distribution side के ऊपर एक मसला यह था कि no matter what you do with sport, जब तक कि उसकी distribution sorted नहीं होगी, वह चल नहीं सकती. I think now with with streaming coming in and a lot of these players like Maiko and, you know, Big and Watch and जो यह streaming की आ रहे हैं, तमाशा and so on. They're definitely not just very interested, but they're also putting a lot of effort in creating that distribution network. तो मुझे personally यह लगता है कि अगले एक दो साल हैं before the private sector really comes in. जो requirement है वह यही है कि there will be some leaders जो कि अपना role के साथ साथ तीन चार और roles करके वह सिर्फ़ और सिर्फ़ लोगों को एक vision के पीछे ले आऐंगे and they have to just showcase that vision activating once और फिर आप देखेंगे वह sort of snowballing हो जाएगी. I hope to personally see you drive that vision because of just the the experience that you have. You're the oldest in Pakistan doing this and the, you know, the roster that you have because leadership के अंदर if you have the right collaborators that that goes a long way. But exciting to see what you guys do and hopeful

कि Pakistan में sports can be a bit more mature than it is right now. Just to add to it you know तमाशा, Tapad, all these streaming platforms as of now where do they take their talent from? That's where we come in. आप जो shows देखते हैं उस पर जो talent sourcing होती है वह हमारे talents होते हैं. Again we are there, we are playing our part. They are playing their part. Makes sense. Another another three, four years and you are right leadership matters. So, public sector is taking its responsibility slowly and gradually. We are playing our part. Once the circle completes, there will be no looking back.

Makes sense. Thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time out and sharing all that inside. Pleasure pleasure. Have a good day. And for all of you guys, thank you so much for watching. अगर आपको यह episode पसंद आई है तो अपना दोस्तों यानों से ज़्यादा ज़रूर share करिएगा. Let me know in the comment section below what are your thoughts on sports in Pakistan, sports branding in Pakistan. क्या आपको लगता है कि हमारे जो eyeballs हैं वह सही create हो रहे हैं? क्या वजह है कि लोग Pakistan में sports को उस तरह से religiously नहीं follow करते? Beyond cricket जिस तरीके से पूरी दुनिया के अंदर let's say football बहुत सारे different sports हैं उसको लोग follow करते हैं. Again this discussion is not about कि you know sports itself as as as a skill set उसके ऊपर कितना काम हो रहा है ज़ाहिर उसकी ग़लत पूरी discussion है. Infrastructure चाहिए उसके लिए, investment चाहिए वगैरह वगैरह. But I personally am of the opinion and आप उसके ऊपर भी comment कर सकते हैं. What do think about that opinion? कि जब आप economics manage कर लेते हैं, जब आप eyeballs ले आते हैं, तो much of the rest of the stuff automatically happens on its own और उसके ऊपर आपको क्या लगता है? क्या वजह है कि हमारा MMA star, हमारा, you know, UFC star, हमारा boxer, हमारा squash player, वह उतना बड़ा star नहीं वन सका. जितना बड़ा, let's say, cricket है. Would love to know your thoughts in the comment section below. But nonetheless, you are watching thought behind things. Thank you so much for watching, I'll see you in the next one.